Hard Light Productions Forums
Site Management => Site Support / Feedback => Topic started by: dANGER boy on May 19, 2010, 12:41:33 am
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Who be in charge of the Hard-Light IRC channel? Anybody got the names of the ChanOps?
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chief1983 is channel creator and/or supreme lord and master
Axem is the channel's only superop (if that means anything to you)
Other Ops:
Battuta
Goober5000
Fury
Karajorma
HerraTohtori
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If you're trying to contact me on Hard Light I'm General Battuta here.
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dANGER_boy: Well I just got done bruteforcing an MD5 hash so I could crack newly released content for one of my favorite games...
dANGER_boy: Dragon Age Origins. Just cracked the newest DLC and posted it on ThePirateBay
Fury`: ...you did what?
--- Fury` has banned *!*@pool-173-50-237-248.ptldor.fios.verizon.net
*** dANGER_boy was kicked by Fury` (dANGER_boy)
There's no sympathy here for you.
I was pondering whether I should temporarily ban you from the forums as well. Please do give me a good reason to make it permanent.
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Ouch. Yeah, definitely deserved an IRC ban.
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I was unaware that #hard-light was our official IRC. Interesting. That'd be the second time someone got banned because of the IRC.
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Well there are some big difference here. One I don't think he got banned from HLP just IRC. Two even if he did get banned from HLP he brought the problem here thus making it part of HLP. Big difference then getting banned from HLP for something on IRC. Once you bring it here I see it as fair game.
So I see a difference in this an the other event you speak of.
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I was unaware that #hard-light was our official IRC. Interesting. That'd be the second time someone got banned because of the IRC.
Uh, Bob, there's a reason why there's a link to it at the top of every forum page...
On the other hand, the channel is run in a very laid-back fashion.
:warp:
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On the other hand, the channel is run in a very laid-back fashion.
I was op once.
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Two even if he did get banned from HLP he brought the problem here thus making it part of HLP.
The other guy brought it to HLP too, by invitation. But I agree that this event is significantly more serious.
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Conveying a message from chief:
[00:17] <chief1983> why was the IRC topic moved to site support?
[00:17] <chief1983> that is _not_ the only purpose of this channel :P
[00:18] <Androgeos> chief1983: He asked for the operators. That's asking for support.
[00:19] <chief1983> what?
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Yeah, appealing to an IRC authority is on-topic for this subforum IMHO. Perhaps "and IRC" should be added to the board description.
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Or add an IRC board.
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That would seem a bit overkill. Unless you plan to start posting IRC logs of particularly fun and juicy conversations anyway.
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Don't people do that already in GD?
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Enough to warrant an entire board dedicated to the IRC channel? A quick check of GD reveals no such threads on the first four pages, which means over a month back.
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I think Goob was talking about adding IRC to the description of what the support forum covers not a new forum.
Hard Light Productions Forums > Site Management > Site Support
changes to something like
Hard Light Productions Forums > Site Management > Site and IRC Support
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He was. Scotty wasn't.
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Don't people do that already in GD?
No! That thread was horrible and was locked. Some people *cough*Androgeos*cough* paste some bits into their signatures.
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So let me get this right...
The IRC is casually moderated.
However, you can be punished on HLPBB if someone posts a conversation log?
Two points...
Is the IRC channel Official or Unofficial? If the latter, then offenses on IRC should be dealt solely on IRC.
How can you verify that someone actually said that?
[00:17] <chief1983> why was the IRC topic moved to site support?
[00:17] <Goober_5000> Because it belongs there. Stop questioning my authority.
[00:18] <Androgeos> chief1983: He asked for the operators. That's asking for support.
[00:19] <chief1983> what?
[00:19] <chief1983> GTFO, Goober_5000
--- chief1983` has banned *!*@pool-173-50-237-248.ptldor.fios.verizon.net
*** Goober_5000 was kicked by chief1983 (GTFO)
No offense to anyone in there; I just picked some bits of conversation and copied some names in there.
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No, you can get banned or monkeyed for IRC misdemeanors if those spill over onto the board proper. In this particular case, dANGER_boy is not banned from HLP, because he didn't make a post about him breaking the DRM on some DLC. However, always assume that the same rules that apply to HLP also apply to #hard-light, especially when the less forgiving chops are around.
As far as I know, noone has yet been banned for appearing in some chatlog, even if they broke the board rules in the process. Whether or not they were allowed to remain on #hard-light after they made those statements is a different question.
So. Policy at the moment is to deal with people making trouble on IRC on IRC. However, once that spills over to the board, board rules apply, and the prior history on IRC may play a role in determining the level of punishment.
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Though EsperNet is not based solely in the United States, EsperNet has decided to adopt some of its laws and legal definitions. These include, but are by no means limited to:
* Prohibition of the distribution of child pornography.
* Prohibition of illegal distribution of software protected by copyright laws (also known as "warez").
* Prohibition of illegal distribution of other copyrighted intellectual property.
In actuality, dANGER_boy's actions would warrant a network wide ban from EsperNet... depending on how they define "distribution".
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I know we're discussing this over IRC now, but I thought I should also post our stands here as well, for those who don't go on IRC that often.
As per the above quote from the charter, I don't think dANGER violated any rules, simply because he didn't post any links. Herra, on the other hand, states that he has violated the rules on technical grounds because he mentioned The Pirate Bay. My counter-argument is that TPB hosts thousands of torrent files; his is a needle in a stack of needles. In addition, to get to his torrent, you need to know how to get to TPB first - which is not just simply http://tpb.com - then do a manual search, entering all the correct search terms, before you even have a hope of seeing his torrent on the list of results.
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oh lordy you're all taking this way too super serial
Just discourage it. As long as there's no links it shouldn't matter.
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That would usually be the case, but this time this particular idiot admitted of
1) Creating a crack
2) Distributing said crack
It's not exactly what an average joe would, or could do. Which makes it that much more serious of an offence.
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:wtf:
* Prohibition of illegal distribution of software protected by copyright laws (also known as "warez").
It says distribution, not discussion. And then there's the matter of scope: an IRC network's rules apply to stuff happening on the IRC network, and only on the IRC network. The distribution did not occur on esper, only discussion of the distribution. It's outside of their jurisdiction.
Nobody here has been deputized by the esper network, or the copyright holders of whatever software dANGER_boy may have distributed. The responsibility to penalize dANGER_boy is the copyright holder's and the copyright holder's alone.
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:wtf:
* Prohibition of illegal distribution of software protected by copyright laws (also known as "warez").
It says distribution, not discussion. And then there's the matter of scope: an IRC network's rules apply to stuff happening on the IRC network, and only on the IRC network. The distribution did not occur on esper, only discussion of the distribution. It's outside of their jurisdiction.
Nobody here has been deputized by the esper network, or the copyright holders of whatever software dANGER_boy may have distributed. The responsibility to penalize dANGER_boy is the copyright holder's and the copyright holder's alone.
true but the "discussion" was purely about this person engaging in illegal activity that runs counter to the views of this community including the creation and/or use of hacks to bypass software security, is that something we want on the channel?
i for one support the ban, not sure about the need to report the activity to esper though, but the comment could be construed as an advert to the fact that this hack is now available
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Yes, it could, if you were feeling particularly ruleslawyerish.
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Let him talk about it...there's no real harm from just talking about the crack. Just remember to drop in and remind everyone that it's illegal, and not to actually use it.
It's not exactly legal to set traps and make choral hydrate, but Ragnar Benson's books (which give step-by-step guides) are still out there. Frankly, as long as no one's in danger, or being threatened, then just let it go. Besides, he just inadvertently helped the developer by finding a way the software was broken and needs fixing.
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Well, he was distributing it, wasn't he? Which is just *kind of* illegal.
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So let me get this right...
The IRC is casually moderated.
However, you can be punished on HLPBB if someone posts a conversation log?
Two points...
Is the IRC channel Official or Unofficial? If the latter, then offenses on IRC should be dealt solely on IRC.
How can you verify that someone actually said that?
[00:17] <chief1983> why was the IRC topic moved to site support?
[00:17] <Goober_5000> Because it belongs there. Stop questioning my authority.
[00:18] <Androgeos> chief1983: He asked for the operators. That's asking for support.
[00:19] <chief1983> what?
[00:19] <chief1983> GTFO, Goober_5000
--- chief1983` has banned *!*@pool-173-50-237-248.ptldor.fios.verizon.net
*** Goober_5000 was kicked by chief1983 (GTFO)
No offense to anyone in there; I just picked some bits of conversation and copied some names in there.
In regards to the first few sentences of that which were quoted accurately, itt seems the confusion was that someone thought I was talking about this thread, or something. I recieved an email notifying me that the HLP IRC thread had been moved to a new location, and was confused why this was done. I don't even know anything about this banning of someone, but yeah, repeated violations of EsperNet policy are definitely grounds for an IRC banning. The IRC channel generally is more laid back, things that will get your posts deleted here usually fly on IRC, mostly because it's not something that there's a public record of. We still try not to grossly offend anyone in the channel, but it often boils down to a GenDisc level of absurdity. That's why so many channels have forked off of it.
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Despite this, the HLP IRC is still one of the best ways to make friends with everyone on HLP. I see Kazan, Battuta, Mura and Hades having an extremely lively discussion about EVE Online battleships there right now. :)
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It kicked me out for some reason earlier. Something about my nickname already being in use. It kicked me out while I was using that nickname.
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Someone already registered your nick, Scotty? "Scotty" is a pretty common name after all...
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No, it happened twice, on two nicks I was using.
Plus, it would tell me if it were a registered name and make me change back or get booted within the minute.
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You can customize the time you have to change your nick before being auto kicked. Or, the user with your nick could have turned that off and manually ghosted you. If you don't have the nick registered, register it, or pick something else and register it. Don't just try to use someone else's nick.
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I feel a need to repeat myself:
Nobody here has been deputized by the esper network, or the copyright holders of whatever software dANGER_boy may have distributed. The responsibility to penalize dANGER_boy is the copyright holder's and the copyright holder's alone.
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this seems to be a worrying developement ........; watch out ppl , soon they will be trolling your facebook aswell....
but in all seriousness, ppl let there hair down in IRC, and many things said in there would get you 14 years hard labour in some places in the world, i believe that some ppl are just a little too uptight ...... which i have had personal experience off...
live a little:
love a little:
laugh a lot
lifes good that way
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I feel a need to repeat myself:
Nobody here has been deputized by the esper network, or the copyright holders of whatever software dANGER_boy may have distributed. The responsibility to penalize dANGER_boy is the copyright holder's and the copyright holder's alone.
That is not quite so. Site or channel administration can be held responsible should blatantly illegal activity take place without appropriate consequences.
Should EsperNet ircops learn what transpired in the channel and that no action were taken against dANGER_boy by channel operators, EsperNet can close the channel if they so want, or take another action they feel appropriate. They may also have obligation to report such activity to authorities, which could potentially lead to closer scrutiny of channel activities and possibly even site activity.
At the point where existence of channel or site is threatened even slightly, there is no doubt you will face harsh consequences. And as such, dANGER_boy is permanently banned from the channel. He is however, not yet banned from the site.
Seriously, common sense? Is it too much to ask if people would use it?
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I decided to bring this debate to the EsperNet help channel. The channel admin that responded to my query seems to agree with Fury, so there we go.
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I decided to bring this debate to the EsperNet help channel. The channel admin that responded to my query seems to agree with Fury, so there we go.
Why did you do that , were you looking for a brownie point or were you looking to just tag the Hard-light irc channel as a trouble makers zone ..... im sorry but this IMHO is a very stupid move
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I decided to bring this debate to the EsperNet help channel. The channel admin that responded to my query seems to agree with Fury, so there we go.
Why did you do that , were you looking for a brownie point or were you looking to just tag the Hard-light irc channel as a trouble makers zone ..... im sorry but this IMHO is a very stupid move
:wtf:
He was asking one of the authorities of esper.net if what we were doing was OK. In other words, he was removing ambiguity from this discussion by getting a clear policy statement from the guys who are actually in charge.
This is not "looking for brownie points", or "getting us all in trouble". I trust Andro that he presented the case clearly and that he made sure to stress the fact that #hard-light is not a habitual den of troublemakers. Have a little respect and trust in your fellow netizens, would you?
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Actually simply the fact that he brought it forward would suggest we're not typically that kind of channel :P
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Lame.
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I don't know about forum bans for IRC behavior, but I will so ban your ass in IRC for acting a fool in here :P
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That would usually be the case, but this time this particular idiot admitted of
1) Creating a crack
2) Distributing said crack
It's not exactly what an average joe would, or could do. Which makes it that much more serious of an offence.
:rolleyes:
Lol.
I can see no reason why you should ban him from the forum. In fact, you should've warned him about the rules first, or even told him to delete it. I mean, ban someone from a forum just because he said something that's barely related to FreeSpace? Please.
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As any cop will tell you, ignorance of the law is no excuse. If the forum has rules, I don't object to them being enforced.
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That would usually be the case, but this time this particular idiot admitted of
1) Creating a crack
2) Distributing said crack
It's not exactly what an average joe would, or could do. Which makes it that much more serious of an offence.
:rolleyes:
Lol.
I can see no reason why you should ban him from the forum. In fact, you should've warned him about the rules first, or even told him to delete it. I mean, ban someone from a forum just because he said something that's barely related to FreeSpace? Please.
Have you read this thread? Like, AT ALL? Or did you just post the very first thing that popped up in your head after reading the first two or three posts?
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Discussion and distribution of pirated material is evidently against the rules. It's not like you used leet language in a community that doesn't like it.
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The thing really, was, lol. I mean after some guy says two statements, he gets banned. Funny.
I myself did a flame thread in another forum yet I was merely warned, let alone banned.
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The thing really, was, lol. I mean after some guy says two statements, he gets banned. Funny.
Indeed. He was banned from HLP's official IRC channel for boasting about cracks and torrents and stuff. Funny indeed. The reasons for this action can be found in this very thread.
I myself did a flame thread in another forum yet I was merely warned, let alone banned.
Yeah, well, not all forums are alike. Start deliberately flaming here and you'd quickly end up at least monkeyed, if not outright banned.
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I myself did a flame thread in another forum yet I was merely warned, let alone banned.
You will find that, over here, it's a lot different. We make pointed statements at each other, but those have no insult value. We're a very close-knit bunch of misfits, so think twice before starting one here. There's always at least one admin around to see things, even if you don't see them on the number of people viewing the page you're on.
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@ Jeff Vader:
I would hardly call that boasting.
@ TopAce:
Discussion is not against the rules. That's the whole reason this thread went on beyond the first 5 posts or so --- the fact that he did not actually distribute the pirated material on the IRC channel. What he did was (and remains, thanks to him getting banned before he could screw himself over by linking to it) outside of HLP's jurisdiction.
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Also, HLP will not tolerate the posting of pornography or warez files anywhere on the site. However the discussion of a pornography or warez related topic is still allowed. The difference being that the former contains content or links to said content - the latter does not. If you're unsure about what you want to post and are worried may breach this rule then please contact a staff member for advice first. Ignorance of this rule does not mitigate breaking it.
When discussing topics that involve illegal activities, please keep in mind that HLP is not the place for confession and absolution. This includes piracy no matter how common it is. Any activity that could threaten current or future affiliations with any company in business, either developer or publisher will have consequences.
As tempting as the omission bias is, permitting dANGER bOY the right to freely discuss illegal activities is tantamount to endorsement by negative action. I think we've all discussed piracy at some length, but the forum guidelines make it obvious that at least a modicum of roundabout distance needs to be maintained from the topic.
Additionally, I think the forum guidelines were always intended to permit discussion of the topic - 'is pornography moral', 'what causes piracy' - but not discussion that facilitates the topic, if you see what I mean. Talking in veiled terms about what one is currently pirating is toeing the line; talking explicitly about a key role in piracy is over it.
In short, you need to maintain plausible deniability as a courtesy to the admins so they have some room . Overt action or discussion has to be addressed.
At least, that's my take on it.
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Note to self: never tell people what's on your mind.
Better yet, never talk. In fact, live in constant fear of unprovoked and indiscriminate 'justice.'
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Yeah, and deliberately antagonizing mods has nothing to do with that, huh?
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Note to self: never tell people what's on your mind.
Better yet, never talk. In fact, live in constant fear of unprovoked and indiscriminate 'justice.'
Ah, so we've retreated to 'I can't defend my position, so I'll just state an unsupported consequence of my unsupported position?'
Glenn Beck HLP edition?
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I was being facetious.
Sarcasm tags would be awesome. I'd say we need "facetiousness" tags, but too many people would't know what that means, and wouldn't have the sense to look it up.
Made you look.
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You could always add them yourself.
Nah, that's way too hard[/sarcasm]
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You could always add them yourself.
Nah, that's way too hard[/sarcasm]
And yet you still did it wrong. :p
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Note to self: never tell people what's on your mind.
Better yet, never talk. In fact, live in constant fear of unprovoked and indiscriminate 'justice.'
Oh stop being such a c*nt.
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Hades, it's fine to show only the closing tag of something like /sarcasm.
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I think Hades was trying to point out that there should be a [sarcasm] at the front. :nervous:
It would be nice if we had a sarcasm tag that works, though.
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And I was trying to point out that you don't need a [sarcasm] tag at the front.
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It would be nice if we had a sarcasm tag that works, though.
Seconded
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Personally, i associate the #hard-light IRC with HLP as the channel is FreeSpace and directly HLP ( imo ) related.
The topics discussed there are sometimes so...oh well...different, you don't want to post them in any Forum.
That's ok me thinks, since people who frequently visit the channel know that it's mostly fun and/ or for the lulz, and we wouldn't have it any other way, right? :P
I fully agree, even though i think that #hard-light IRC and HLP are part of the same coin*, people should not get monkeyd or banned for things they did in the channel, or get banned from the channel because of the things they posted in the forum, unless the things swap over ( like The_E mentioned ).
A discussion about piracy is one thing, posting links to pirated stuff an entirely another.
And in this specific case, i think the ban from the channel was justified.
*Let me elaborate that a bit:
I think that all FS or HLP related channels should be treated as part of the Site, with all rights and Rules ( even though the fact that the SuperOPS are the higher Authority there and that the channel is on a different server). Except maybe for the different kind of humour, that is already allowed in the channel...
Some of the Admins and Forum/ Subforum moderators here, are already OPS in the various channels so it shouldn't be a problem.
I think the #hard-light channel is the HLP equivalent of Babylon 5's brown sector, it has it's own rules ( like, you can get away with a little trollin' or get booted for a minute but no further punishment - which btw other people might enjoy :P), but the major HLP rules should still apply there ( talking about pirating stuff, posting forbidden links, a.s.o. ).
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Yeah well, I don't, because they're not part of the site. They're two different mediums. If anything IRC is closer to GenDisc at the least, but still even less so. Most of this has to do with there being a lack of a permanent record in most cases. It's not just assumed that anything you say could show up on a Google search so you can get away with a bit more in there. Plus, IRC has Esper's policies to worry about which we don't specifically here, but many of them overlap.
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A discussion about piracy is one thing, posting links to pirated stuff an entirely another.
And in this specific case, i think the ban from the channel was justified.
Nitpick: he never actually posted a link. So that's kind of a non-sequitur (unless the second statement there wasn't logically related to the first, in which case they shouldn't have been in the same paragraph).
Also, a reminder for people who want to bring up the "things swap over" argument: in this particular case, it was Fury, not dANGER_boy, who posted the chat log.
In doing so, he has provided as much information about how to obtain dANGER_boy's warez as dANGER_boy did, and has made it available to a much larger audience. But I don't particularly expect him to get banned any time soon, considering he's an Admin.
Edit:
In case you wanted to argue with me some more: too bad, you can't. I've decided to stop advancing my original position (although that doesn't mean I've changed my mind about this issue). So don't take the above points as being parts of a greater thesis; they're not.
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Nitpick: he never actually posted a link. So that's kind of a non-sequitur (unless the second statement there wasn't logically related to the first, in which case they shouldn't have been in the same paragraph).
I decided to bring this debate to the EsperNet help channel. The channel admin that responded to my query seems to agree with Fury, so there we go.
In doing so, he has provided as much information about how to obtain dANGER_boy's warez as dANGER_boy did, and has made it available to a much larger audience. But I don't particularly expect him to get banned any time soon, considering he's an Admin.
I'd like to point out that Fury posted the chat log so that everyone else knew what the Hell was going on.
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A discussion about piracy is one thing, posting links to pirated stuff an entirely another.
And in this specific case, i think the ban from the channel was justified.
Nitpick: he never actually posted a link. So that's kind of a non-sequitur (unless the second statement there wasn't logically related to the first, in which case they shouldn't have been in the same paragraph).
Also, a reminder for people who want to bring up the "things swap over" argument: in this particular case, it was Fury, not dANGER_boy, who posted the chat log.
In doing so, he has provided as much information about how to obtain dANGER_boy's warez as dANGER_boy did, and has made it available to a much larger audience. But I don't particularly expect him to get banned any time soon, considering he's an Admin.
Duh, sorry my bad.
I actually meant, as i said "And in this specific case...":
A discussion about piracy is one thing, posting links to pirated stuff an entirely another.
And in this specific case, i think the ban from the channel was justified.
that the ban was justified, because of what dANGER_boy said in the IRC channel, not because he asked here in the forum who the chanOPS are. The posting links part, is meant in General, i am not saying that dANGER_boy did post any links!
Fury merely posted the reason why he was banned, which in my opinion doesn't qualify, Fury to be the one, who allowed things to swap over. If a politician makes a harrasing comment about minoritys on TV, whom do you blame - the politician or the anchorman of the news show who reported said event and quoted him?
If we assume for a moment, dANGER_boy would have posted the same thing in the forum ( GenDisc, GameDisc) he said in IRC, or started actually complaining about the reason for the ban ( which he did not! ), that would i interpret as swapping over, and be a possible reason for a monkeying or a TempBan.
Sorry for the confusion.
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Time to close this topic. Everything that was needed to be said has been said several times already.