Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Bonehead on June 04, 2010, 01:54:06 pm
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I've played through the retail campaign several times, after which I became aware of FSOpen and played that as well. However, aside from graphical changes, and a few options available in the launcher (3d radar, ship rearm time), I haven't noticed any significant changes to the campaign. For example, wingmates still don't fire their Trebuchets, or use weapons inefectively (like using a morning star on a fighter without following up with missiles), some missions are still not very polished (like no beams for escort ships in High Noon, Tatanen can avoid destruction in The Fog of War, etc). Is it the case that there is an updated version of the main campaign somewhere to download, or some separate updates to individual missions or AI Improvement mods?
I'm asking primarily because I'm interested in experiencing the new features of FSOpen. And also, I want to make my wingmates fire Trebuchets. Seriously, it was so irritating to watch them just sit there in the last few missions with bankfull of Trebuchets!
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There are a few mods, most notably Fury's AI mod.
Mediavps only modify the looks though, not behaviour.
Also, you may play Blue Planet, which is a campaign that makes use of many new features.
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Blue Planet will do a lot of what you're asking.
Plus, improved AI (though you'll need the 3.6.12 feature pack.)
The main campaign itself has intentionally been left as close to retail state as possible. But there's nothing stopping anyone from making a fan edit of it to improve it.
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Yep. The mission statement of the SCP is to update the engine as far as possible, but to keep the retail experience the same. Modders can make use of the advanced features, but retail should stay retail, no matter what.
The FSU team, which produces the mediavps, operates on a similar principle. The MediaVPs are intended to bring the audiovisual part of the original game to modern levels, while keeping the gameplay the same.
The reason for this is that we do not want to create a situation where we make a decision about how we think the game should be played that runs counter to the original intent of :V:. If someone decides to make a mod that alters the way the retail campaign plays, that's fine. But we can't make this part of the "official" enhancement packages.
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Someone (Dilmah G? :nervous:) has managed to make updated versions of some of the worse missions in the campaign such as "Their Finest Hour..." and "High Noon", which are missions that should have had more meat to them than what :v: gave them.
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Someone (Dilmah G? :nervous:) has managed to make updated versions of some of the worse missions in the campaign such as "Their Finest Hour..." and "High Noon", which are missions that should have had more meat to them than what :v: gave them.
One notices that the missions get more rushed towards the end.
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Of course, if you want to see some canon material, (or do we class it as semi canon?) updated. Check out ST:R (Silent threat: Reborn)!
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:nod: :)
As an exception to the mediavp rule, hasn't Their Finest Hour been modified to free the beams on the allied ships?
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I'm not sure.
I also believe that some fighter classes in 'Place of Chariots' were tweaked to match dialogue.
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Nothing truly gameplay changing has occurred, last I checked--nothing like when we beam-locked the Lilith's beam in Blue Planet's Forced Entry--nothing that would change balance or affect gameplay at a deeper level than necessary.
At best, all the FSU and FSO teams try to do is just bring the retail game's visual standards up and give the engine more potential, respectively.
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Someone (Dilmah G? :nervous:) has managed to make updated versions of some of the worse missions in the campaign such as "Their Finest Hour..." and "High Noon", which are missions that should have had more meat to them than what :v: gave them.
Ah yeah, that was me and Thadeus. High Noon was my first proper mission, and as such, I think a few things need tweaking (such as the wing arrival delays etc).
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If somebody could collect a list of all the retail missions that have been re-worked, you could start releasing a "Editor's Choice" mod of the main campaign, similar to ST:R.
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If someone were to revamp the FS2 campaign, I'd also recommend rebalancing the ships and weapons (no Myrmidon/Helios, nerfed Tempests, etc.), reintroducing the Avenger and Phoenix V (the Phoenix V would be available early in the campaign and supplanted by the Trebuchet) and possibly the Harbinger as well, and trying to make everything more consistent.
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make it better. sound advice.
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If someone were to revamp the FS2 campaign, I'd also recommend rebalancing the ships and weapons (no Myrmidon/Helios, nerfed Tempests, etc.), reintroducing the Avenger and Phoenix V (the Phoenix V would be available early in the campaign and supplanted by the Trebuchet) and possibly the Harbinger as well, and trying to make everything more consistent.
I'd be hesitant to do anything that doesn't have associated voice files or written canon material, which some of these changes would require.
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I'd rather see a rebalancing and a utilization of Fury's AI, as well as a mission that truly takes Blue Planet's "cinematic" feel and adding it to every aspect possible (don't get me wrong, FS2 was awesomely cinematic, but in the end, the official campaign is still based on the 1999 engine).
Oh, and using more SCP features to make things just cooler overall would be nice.
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Doing to FS1 and FS2 what ST:R did to ST sounds a good idea. But where ST:R stays compatible with retail, I would personally use fs2_open fully and re-work gameplay as well. If this project could get good fredders, I would be in to work on gameplay, Having Battuta aboard would be awesome, but there's still second half of WiH...
Goddammit, sigtau said pretty much what I was typing.
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I'd rather see a rebalancing and a utilization of Fury's AI, as well as a mission that truly takes Blue Planet's "cinematic" feel and adding it to every aspect possible (don't get me wrong, FS2 was awesomely cinematic, but in the end, the official campaign is still based on the 1999 engine).
Oh, and using more SCP features to make things just cooler overall would be nice.
Yeah, what he said.
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Actually, if this project lifts off, it might be better not to use old voice-acting. It would impose hard limits on fredders and there wouldn't be improved dialogue. New voice-acting would be total pain in the ass though.
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I think doing for FS2 something similar to What If could be a good idea, but with less un-canon shifts.
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Actually, if this project lifts off, it might be better not to use old voice-acting. It would impose hard limits on fredders and there wouldn't be improved dialogue. New voice-acting would be total pain in the ass though.
Yeah, skip voice-acting.
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Not that I'm saying that anyone shouldn't undertake a project like this, if that's what they want, but I do feel like there's sort of a fundamental difference between this idea and what ST:R did. The original Silent Threat is just about universally acknowledged as a massive dud, an interesting concept handicapped by nonexistent plot progression and poor mission design. The ST:R team ran with this concept and produced something beyond top-notch, and I think most of us would happily overwrite the retail campaign with it in our own personal canons. In contrast, though there are flaws in the retail FS1 and FS2 campaigns, they were pretty damn awesome games from the very beginning (otherwise, none of us would be here in the first place). Though I don't know that I'd be interested in playing a tweaked FS2 campaign personally, more power to you if you enjoy the "what-if" sort of thing.
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Well just the more underwhelming missions, like High Noon and that, I'd agree with remakes on for sure. If someone could make something good out of the rest of the campaign, well then I don't see why not.
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Actually, if this project lifts off, it might be better not to use old voice-acting. It would impose hard limits on fredders and there wouldn't be improved dialogue. New voice-acting would be total pain in the ass though.
Yeah, skip voice-acting.
I actually think we should use some of the voice acting again, mostly for the truly memorable lines in the campaign. We can always use anything Bosch says because a lot of those lines are very good.
Places I'd (just opinion mostly) keep the VA:
- Place of the Chariots
- The Roman's Blunder
- The Great Hunt (heh, QD and I were talking about this general are of the campaign. Anyone else think it might work better if Mystery of the Trinity and the Great Hunt were combined, mission wise?)
- The SOC loops.
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No, no, I like them separate. Recon sorties take place between the two missions, as stated in the briefings, and they need to get Security Council clearance or something to process the two corvettes through to the nebula.
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Which so long as we're dropping the VA wouldn't be a problem to re-write to make sense.
The point would be a better flowing campaign instead of two consecutive fifteen minute missions of ultimate boredom interspersed with ~30 seconds of combat here and there, and the droll nature of the trinity missions conclusion, since without effecting canon too much you could have the ravana vapourise the trinity alone if you wanted, or still the power to nuke the trinity and the lysander or actium.
Missions I felt need reworking;
Surrender Belasarius (So, the entire reason this mission exists is to show off beams...yeay).
Mystery of the Trinity (I spend almost all of this mission in x8 compression these days).
The Great Hunt (see above).
Slaying Ravana (falling asleep at the wheel and flying into the Ravana).
The Sixth Wonder (very, very underwhelming mission).
Rebel's and Renegades (minor).
Love the Treason (minor).
But hate the traitor (maybe?).
Battle of the wilderness (similar to great hunt/mystery of the trinity).
A game of TAG (minor maybe?).
Proving Grounds (yeay for duplicated argonautica-lite).
The King's Gambit (less Mjolnir overload, more player work? maybe? not so self completing on insane?)
The Sicilian defence (how tragic is this mission?).
The Fog of War (distanceslol).
Speaking in Tongues (less gaps in combat plix?)
High Noon (blows).
Argonautica (probably the better of the nebula missions but still, sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much dead time).
Exodus (I ACTUALLY fell asleep having forgotten about the last two waves in my playthrough in this mission, honestly, there's a TWO MINUTE gap between waves with no dialogue, PUHLEEZE).
Their Finest Hour (should be done properly).
CoTTII (could use a bit of work to make it less of a treb turkey shoot fest).
Apocalypse (this mission gets on my nerves a bit in regards to a) the second ending, nothing actually changes no matter what if you stay behind, no one extra makes it through.
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Fair enough. If you do decide to get that list underway however, I'd like dibs on High Noon. ;)
Yes, yes, I'll drop the electro-rock soundtrack if I must.
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Yes, yes, I'll drop the electro-rock soundtrack if I must.
Yeah, keeping retail musics is better IMHO.
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Yeah.
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I might like to redo The Sixth Wonder, since it seems simple enough.
Defend station till Colly shows up.
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Yeah, giving the attack more structure (perhaps getting rid of most of this 'human wave' nonsense?) and the Hawkwood or whatever it was really going at it before the Colly jumps in could be enough to do the trick. :v: were justified in how they did the mission though, I thought it was pretty cool the first time I played it back in 2000 as a 6 year old on my Windows 98. :D
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I have recently been replaying the FS2 campaign, and I feel it could be improved. Having played some TIE Fighter as well, I noticed that the Freespace 2 campaign is rather lacking at times when it comes to Bonus objectives. Here is a summary of what I believe we should change or expand.
CAMPAIGN CHANGES
One: Include AI & SCP improvements, such as AI using Trebuchets appropriately.
Two: Add more opportunities for the player to make a difference in the campaign, such as ships surviving a battle and appearing later on, getting different loadouts if conveys are destroyed/saved, and so on. Stuff like what was done with the mission about damaging the Sathanas is really cool in my opinion.
Three: Make some battles larger in scale if appropriate, since the engine can support more stuff.
Four: Additional cinematic flair where possible.
Five: Rebalancing to be more canonical and to take AI changes into account.
ex: Correction of the Mjolnir to have missiles, like in the briefing, AI pilots using Trebuchets, Colossus having all turrets. (I hear that it is missing some.), improve the Artemis D.H, Tag-C, Artemis Overclock, Nahema underclock, Bakha overclock, Mentu beams, Check-Hull flags for turrets, Bahka-Helios secondaries, ect.
Six: Restoration of content & ideas that Volition didn't finish, such as Colossus and the waypoints in High Noon IIRC.
MISSION CHANGES
Surrender, Belsaurius!
An extra dose of cinema would be good. Placing the Psamtik and Belisaurius further away from the player's location and having them exchange broadsides should be good at demonstrating beams. The only problem is the boredom factor for veterans, and that getting between the two ships is a good lesson to rookies about the dangers of being in the crossfire. Perhaps a little bit of of show and tell would be good. A small ship or fighter from the GTVA could get caught in a second exchange of firepower, getting destroyed while screaming an appropriate epitaph. After the Belisaurius gets blown away, an NTF Fenris can come onto the scene, so the player can get involved and learn about close encounters with beams with minimal danger, with the Fenris using the Slashing Beam once on the player.
Place of Chariots
My opinion here is more along the lines of what I perceive to be a more realistic approach to the containers. That is, I think that Command would be interested in checking out the contents of the containers since they might have information, supplies, and so on. The fact that they are shielded ought to be a big clue about their importance. Perhaps a NTF Fenris with some fighters could warp in to destroy or protect the containers. Maybe the Iceni could be scanned as an bonus objective, too. (Since it is carrying ETAK)
Lion at the Door
Preservation and scanning of the Shivan cargo would be a good bonus objective, I think. It is likely that Command would be interested in knowing how Shivan technology and methodology has changed, and nothing is better for that than looking at their supplies.
Mystery of the Trinity
While I don't mind surprises, it seems odd to me that the Trinity is destroyed so easily and without a chance to ensure the survival of the ships you are supposed to protect. I think adding a Secondary objective of protecting the Discovery would be good, and having the actual repair and survival of the Trinity to be a good Bonus objective. In short:
1) Survival & Escape of the "Discovery" as an Secondary Objective.
2) Repair & Escape of Trinity as an Bonus Objective.
3) Rebalanced enemy fighter waves, if Trinity becomes an Bonus Objective.
4) It would be nice to have some sort of reward for Trinity surviving. Maybe an extra SOC mission later on?
The Great Hunt
An fairly good mission already, but I think it could use some bonus objectives.
1) Scan the Ravana as an Bonus Objective, which makes the Ravana 10% damaged in the next mission?
2) Make it possible for both corvettes to survive, with them appearing in "Slaying the Ravana", as a nifty bonus for the player. They ought to retain some damage to reflect the battle in progress.
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One: Include AI & SCP improvements, such as AI using Trebuchets appropriately.
I believe this was implemented, until it was realised just how much it effected gameplay.
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For the most part, I think removing Trebs from the default loadouts of most of the offending Shivan fighters(Mara, Basilisk, and Aeshma) by TBM could fix that, as well as restricting the player(and wingmen) from having access to them, if absolutely necessary.
As long as a campaign is made with "AI can throw Trebs around" in mind, I'm sure it can work.
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I did a few things like this with the main campaign myself, way back in the day. There are a number of missions, such as Slaying Ravana and The King's Gambit, with ships that are in the mission but almost never show up under normal circumstances. I mainly wanted to just have these unused ships appear and to integrate them into the mission in some way. I also added in extra enemy wings or enabled beams in some missions to make them more action-packed, and fixed other missions with messed up debriefing music.
For a project like this, instead of making major changes to the mission plots and events (which would mean removing the voices), I would like to see more in the way of smaller, gameplay-related changes. Things like Fury's AI, rapid fire turrets, more fighters in some missions, better ship/weapon balancing and so on would improve the campaign a lot. Although there may be some limited scope for adding events to the missions by repurposing voice files from other missions, especially the multiplayer ones.
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I think the player wing needs a dedicated fighter escort in Slaying Ravana.
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I did a few things like this with the main campaign myself, way back in the day. There are a number of missions, such as Slaying Ravana and The King's Gambit, with ships that are in the mission but almost never show up under normal circumstances. I mainly wanted to just have these unused ships appear and to integrate them into the mission in some way. I also added in extra enemy wings or enabled beams in some missions to make them more action-packed, and fixed other missions with messed up debriefing music.
For a project like this, instead of making major changes to the mission plots and events (which would mean removing the voices), I would like to see more in the way of smaller, gameplay-related changes. Things like Fury's AI, rapid fire turrets, more fighters in some missions, better ship/weapon balancing and so on would improve the campaign a lot. Although there may be some limited scope for adding events to the missions by repurposing voice files from other missions, especially the multiplayer ones.
What he said. Personally, I just would not be interested in a version of retail that dumped VA so that whoever revamped the missions could do whatever they want. Retail is retail for a reason. Don't mess with the story, don't mess with the VA, much of it is too good.
Making the missions in need better though, I'm all for that. Better AI would be welcome, of course the whole campaign would need to be re-balanced.
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Personally I still favor ST:R approach to this. Not being limited by existing voice acting gives much more freedom to make that much better missions from ground-up. The campaign would have to be voice-acted for certain, but the missions would definitely be better than if they had been restricted by old voice acting.
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Err, keep in mind that ST:R overhauled a campaign that was only one-third the size of FS2 (or half the size, if you go by the end result). And it still took us six years. :nervous:
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Well, 17 missions of BP2 R1 only took roughly a year to fred. So that'd be about two years for FS2 campaign. Of course, so much depends on who is fredding and how much time they have to fred. Voice-acting is something that takes significantly longer to accomplish. But nothing prevents doing voice-acting after campaign release. I think the community has gained enough experience to have voice-acting of FS2 sized campaign done in about three years. Completing fredding and voice-acting would take approximately five years.
It does take long time to get voice-acting done. But personally I prefer that over to being restricted by existing voice-acting. If followed through with quality fredding and voice-acting, the end result would be more than worth the trouble.
Still, it's just my opinion.
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Keep in mind though Fury, that was FREDed by two people who had some damn good chemistry, supported by yourself and a few others. And as far as VA goes, do we really, really, need it upon release? I don't object to it sometime down the road and if everyone else thinks VA on release is a good idea I'm for it, but I'd rather see you have a team going and up and FREDing before that.
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That's exactly my point, there is no need to have VA right on release. It can be done afterwards, even if it takes years.
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Err, keep in mind that ST:R overhauled a campaign that was only one-third the size of FS2 (or half the size, if you go by the end result). And it still took us six years. :nervous:
Doesn't someone have a quote by GalEmp in their signature about you silently putting things back the way they were, and that being why it took six years?
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Err, keep in mind that ST:R overhauled a campaign that was only one-third the size of FS2 (or half the size, if you go by the end result). And it still took us six years. :nervous:
Doesn't someone have a quote by GalEmp in their signature about you silently putting things back the way they were, and that being why it took six years?
Don't underestimate Goob's ability to take his time. He's been judging the first annual HLP FRED contest (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=33629.0) for almost five years now. (Forty-three days to go, until that anniversary, in fact, Goob. Not to say that I'm keeping track. :P)
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That is entirely due to laziness, rather than repeated polishing. :p
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Keep the VA. It's too awesome to go to something fan made.
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there can't ever be an ST:R type of remake for retail FS2. ST:R worked because the original was **** and it wasn't going to step on toes.
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Perhaps a few table changes and implementation of Furian AI would be alright.
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there can't ever be an ST:R type of remake for retail FS2. ST:R worked because the original was **** and it wasn't going to step on toes.
I don't see the problem. :D
- On a serious note, we can throw out any of the VA we wish, and keep any of the VA we wish.
It's whoever's running the projects rules, not anyone elses. :p
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i'm not saying nobody can make their own version of it, it's just never going to pretty much universally replace the original.
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I want to make my wingmates fire Trebuchets
Me too. This sounds more like a bug then a feature (and therefore, should be fixed)
IMO.
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It is a bug.
However, it's also a gameplay feature of the retail campaign. At several points, the AI gets weapons it can't use to make it easier on the player. Allowing these weapons must be accompanied by a close look at the missions affected to make sure they're still playable on all difficulties.
I should also note that that "bug" has been fixed in the code, but that the fix was deliberately left off by default so that the retail campaign plays exactly like it did during the retail days.
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Well, 17 missions of BP2 R1 only took roughly a year to fred. So that'd be about two years for FS2 campaign.
BP2 was working to a single vision, Darius', but there was also room for flexiblity, in that regardless of BP1 it's all basically new and therefore you are not bound by previous canon.
I think you'll find about twice as many ways to interpret the main FS2 campaign as the number of people you enlist in any project to upgrade or improve it. Or possibly three times. Hell, I personally have gone through about five major variations.
ST was so minimalist in depth and scope that you could get away with almost anything as long as the Hades, cruiser group Hellfire, the Krios, and Jotenheim Installation got whacked. How you did it was pretty much up in the air anyways. In FS2, the way you accomplish certain Stations of the Canon will have a serious effect on how the campaign works as a narrative.
So yes, if you want to find new and interesting ways to piss people off...go ahead?
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Since there is so much disagreement, this will probably die.. I'm ok with that because I wouldn't want FS2 to change much. The one thing in this topic that I would love to see is table changes, implementation of Fury AI and mission re-balancing.
But I doubt a team wants to get together and do just the boring part of MODing.
Basically, FS2 should stay FS2, but with wingmen firing trebuchets.
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The one thing in this topic that I would love to see is table changes
Tables have been thoroughly discussed somewhere else. There's no disagreement in this field as well: Take the Myrmidon's compatibility issues for example. Some say that with Harpoons, it's gonna be overpowered.
mission re-balancing
Beware of veterans doing "rebalancing". What's easy for you on Medium is a challenge for new players on Easy. Unless you have something else in mind.
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I think he meant mission rebalancing in regard of improved AI. Mainly some mission involving Trebuchet-equipped enemies.
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Shouldn't some of the missions get re-worked though? Mystery of the Trinity is mostly time compression until you actually get to the Trinity and As Lightning Falls isn't much different, except with added random EMP effects, and Bearbaiting and High Noon could use some more ships, High Noon especially since the player has little to do after de-beaming the Sath and can just fly around, especially since I believe the beams-not-granting-kills bug was fixed so there's now no chance the player can get a Sathanas kill on his pilot record. There's also the unused waypoints in Their Finest Hour..., and aren't a bunch of allied ships beam-locked too?
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I'd argue that Mystery of the Trinity and As Lightning Fall work just fine as atmospheric missions. The whole point of the former is to introduce the player to the alien and forbidding nebula environment and throw in the Trinity as a plot nugget, and the latter introduced a disorienting environmental challenge that the player had to fight through. We may be able to time-compress them when we're replaying them for the twentieth time, but I think they're very effective for the first-time player. I will agree that High Noon was rather anticlimactic, and I'm sure :v: would have thrown a few more wings of fighters into Bearbaiting if they could have swung it at the time. (Goober's take on this is rather impressive.) And I think tweaking Their Finest Hour to utilize the present waypoints makes perfect sense, since it's fairly clear that :v: wanted the mission to use them in the first place.
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The one thing in this topic that I would love to see is table changes
Tables have been thoroughly discussed somewhere else. There's no disagreement in this field as well: Take the Myrmidon's compatibility issues for example. Some say that with Harpoons, it's gonna be overpowered.
It's overpowered already, with Helios compatability :/
Shouldn't some of the missions get re-worked though? Mystery of the Trinity is mostly time compression until you actually get to the Trinity and As Lightning Falls isn't much different, except with added random EMP effects, and Bearbaiting and High Noon could use some more ships, High Noon especially since the player has little to do after de-beaming the Sath and can just fly around, especially since I believe the beams-not-granting-kills bug was fixed so there's now no chance the player can get a Sathanas kill on his pilot record. There's also the unused waypoints in Their Finest Hour..., and aren't a bunch of allied ships beam-locked too?
Trinity is fine.
As Lightning Falls...is aggravating. They're both quite atmospheric though.
But yes, Bearbaiting, High Noon, and Their Finest Hour could all use spicing up (and quite a few people have done their own takes on it already).
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How about shortening High Noon by having additional warships jump in to assist the Colossus, giving added incentive to knock out the Sath's ventral beam turret if you didn't get to it during Bearbating. You could even have the Phoenicia jump in, with critical hull, determined to make a difference, now that it actually has a chance of surviving an encounter with the Sath.
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I donno man, that seems pretty stupid to make the player scramble all the way there to take out a turret when it shouldn't really be a threat.
The Pheonecia would basically be pulling a Leeroy Jenkins when it jumps in from behind :/
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Make the Sath beam turrets constantly regenerate to keep the player engaged with suppression. You could modify the rate by difficulty level. Unfortunately there's no real precedent or justification in canon for this type of cyclical regeneration.
'A Time for Heroes' in BP also straps some LRSreds on its flanks to at least give it a bit more menace (such as it is.)
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How about shortening High Noon by having additional warships jump in to assist the Colossus, giving added incentive to knock out the Sath's ventral beam turret if you didn't get to it during Bearbating. You could even have the Phoenicia jump in, with critical hull, determined to make a difference, now that it actually has a chance of surviving an encounter with the Sath.
Would need VA...
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I'm sure :v: would have thrown a few more wings of fighters into Bearbaiting if they could have swung it at the time. (Goober's take on this is rather impressive.)
I think you mean Dilmah G's, unless you're referring to the ST:R equivalent.
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Well, it was someone's take, anyway. :p
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Didn't Kara do one? Grizzly Bearbaiting?
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Yep. I did make a bigger version of the mission at one point. It wasn't anything particularly well done though. I did it mostly cause I was abusing the spawn code to see if I could break it. :D
especially since I believe the beams-not-granting-kills bug was fixed so there's now no chance the player can get a Sathanas kill on his pilot record.
I never fixed that. I simply made it possible to set a table setting to prevent the player getting kills that were 0.1% his work and 99.9% beams. AFAIK that setting shouldn't be used in the main FS2 campaign.
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I did High Noon, not Bearbaiting. (Kara, the credit is all yours)
Holidays are coming up and I think doing a two part minicampaign featuring a reimagined Bearbaiting and High Noon may be in order. Trivial Psychic, you have good ideas. :yes:
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Trivial Psychic, you have good ideas. :yes:
That's a matter of some debate, but thanks for the compliment. :lol: