Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Bonehead on June 04, 2010, 02:00:12 pm
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I have a question regarding these three weapons:
1. Admiral Khafre says that the Lamprey drains "shield, weapon, and afterburner reserves". I understand about the weapon and afterburner energy - these are the bars on the left and right sides of your center reticle. But what are "shield reserves"? Is there some hidden energy reserve that recharges shields?
Secondly, what is the best use of the Lamprey in the Single Player campaign? I could never justify putting this weapon on my craft.
2. How viable is the strategy of using Circe and the Maxim? My results were mixed at best. Will the AI use this combination the way they are supposed to?
3. I found on the wiki a description of the unused Targeting Laser which is supposed to bring a rocket from subspace... Could someone elaborate please?
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Subspace missile strikes can be implemented in FreeSpace Open. They're a good time.
In War in Heaven we used the TAG-C for this purpose, but I thiiiiink you could do it with a primary like the Targeting Laser as well.
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If I'm on a recon mission (like the Return to Ross 128 in ST:R) I arm my wingmen with Leech and Flail guns and order them to cover me. The enemy never gets a shot off that way. The Lamprey is also a viable weapon in multiplayer, but the AI in FreeSpace never seems to hose Maxims or Kaysers the way players do.
The Circe and Maxim combo isn't great unless you like to micromanage switching your weapons. Try using the Circe on Shivan bombers paired with the Prometheus. My favored multiplayer dogfight loadout is Thoth+Circe+Tempest.
The Targeting Laser / TAG-C was never implemented in Retail but FSOpen has restored its functionality.
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Lampreys don't affect the AI...so... they're useless in the single player campaign :P
You're better off just killing them anyway.
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They don't?
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Lamprey is awesome in team vs team battles though.
You can consider the circe kind of a 'lower energy kayser' though, personally, I would just use the kayser.
Circe/Maxim is ok if you weapon-swap but eh, unless you NEED the maxim for something you'll be better off with PromS/Kayser every time.
If you need the maxim then your difficulty and ship choice should dictate whether to use the PromS or the Kayser.
Basically the only justifiable single player weapons are;
SDG Akheton (when needed only).
The Subach (when you get forced to use it only).
The PromS and the Kayser.
And the Maxim.
Every other primary is sub-optimal.
And if you're not playing on insane there is absolutely no argument against using any of those three. :<
Morning Star, Lamprey, and the Mehku have justifiable uses in Multi...
And no, the lamprey has no effect on AI (well, definitely none on insane anyway, not sure about other difficulties).
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The old Leech definitely has an effect in FSPort ST/ST:R, at least on Hard; I definitely find it makes Valks and Ulysses less AB-flighty, thus making them easier to pin down with the relatively slow-moving old/original Prometheus(otherwise, I'd be using nothing but Avengers).
FS2 top-drawer primaries(Prom-S/Kayser) are too powerful to really justify using 'tactical' guns like the Lamprey and Circe in single player(at least, in their lackluster states as they are). There might have been justification in FS1 where the Avenger and Prom had shield damage-over-time values on par with the Subach, but the Prom-S and Kayser are so brutal on both shields and hull, with excellent shot-velocity(and are still relatively energy-efficient), that you honestly don't need anything else(barring subsystem/turret work, which the Maxim is custom-made for).
It definitely doesn't help that the Main FS2 campaign gives you access to the Lamprey and Circe only after the Prom-S is (re)introduced, as they might have had a short period of semi-relevance in being paired with the relatively low-power/output, equal-shot-velocity Subach.
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The Lamprey is ****ing awesome in Multi if you just want to annoy people.
Seriously, if they're all being predictable and loading up with Maxims and Kaysers, they are ****ing screwed when you splash them with those fiery marine leeches. Won't get a single shot off.
In singleplayer though I haven't found a single use for it.
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Actually, they have a serious usage too, in most/all Cruiser-Duels the original tactic was to fly straight at the enemy cruiser in an eri with maxim firing with full weapon energy and just shooting until you run out of energy + die, then respawn and repeat, your team wins by killing the cruiser first.
The lamprey is the only way to stop this tactic because you don't want the player doing this to actually die.
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Subspace missile strikes can be implemented in FreeSpace Open. They're a good time.
In War in Heaven we used the TAG-C for this purpose, but I thiiiiink you could do it with a primary like the Targeting Laser as well.
You can, since retail.
Actually, FSO didn't did anything to the original SSM system, aside from adding SEXPs to control it.
All that's needed for creating an SSM strike is adding a table that defines it, which is supported since retail.
:v: got rid of that system, since it would give a ship infnite ammo, which would unbalance the game.
WiH is the first campaign to reenable the original SSM, there, it's enabled with TAG-C missiles.
Maybe using the Targeting Laser wouldn't be a bad idea, but I don't think it'd make it into WiH.
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Targeting laser in the hands of AI would be far too unpredictable for mission balancing purposes. TAG-C is much more reliable and predictable tagging system.
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I was thinking more of a special mission where player has to "manually" tag ships with laser mounted on a stealth fighter (it's banks may be too small to take enough TAGs).
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The Lamprey is ****ing awesome in Multi if you just want to annoy people.
Seriously, if they're all being predictable and loading up with Maxims and Kaysers, they are ****ing screwed when you splash them with those fiery marine leeches. Won't get a single shot off.
In singleplayer though I haven't found a single use for it.
Hey, that reminds me of my first and only multi dogfight with you. ;)
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You still pawned me with Tornados though. :mad2:
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Does anyone know the answer to this part?:
1. Admiral Khafre says that the Lamprey drains "shield, weapon, and afterburner reserves". I understand about the weapon and afterburner energy - these are the bars on the left and right sides of your center reticle. But what are "shield reserves"? Is there some hidden energy reserve that recharges shields?
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no shield reserve.
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It's just an alternate way of simply saying "shields".
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You can use it like Circe, with addition of draining AB and weapons energy.
It's less effective against shields though.
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You can use it like Circe, with addition of draining AB and weapons energy.
It's less effective against shields though.
Yes, but who the hell uses the Circe in the first place?
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While I must openly admit that the circe is perhaps my least used weapon in the entire game (including Prom R!), I'm distinctly aware that it IS more efficient than the Kayser.
Efficiency vs Effectiveness though.
Effectiveness wins for me.
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Yes, but who the hell uses the Circe in the first place?
Well, if you play multiplayer...
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If you fly a craft with a 2+2 gun configuration AND you need a Maxim for the mission, I think a Circe is a legitimate option for your other weapon if you don't mind the gun management - strip their shields, then blow them away with the Maxim.
Firing them linked isn't terribly attractive: You get similar overall firepower to a single bank of Kaysers with better range, but at the cost of vastly different projectile velocities and about a quarter more energy consumed.
A Thoth using 4 Circes and Tempests for the kill is also a potent combination against Shivan fighters - nimble enough to keep up, heavy firepower against their shields, and missiles alone are enough to shred their thin hulls.
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The Circe isn't a terrible weapon on paper, but inconvenient to use. Even when theoretically a good choice, I'm often not willing to bother.
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I think a Circe is a legitimate option for your other weapon if you don't mind the gun management - strip their shields, then blow them away with the Maxim.
The combo isn't powerful enough to justify the tediousness that comes with it.
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There's also the energy requirements to worry about. Both the Circe and Maxim aren't exactly the most energy-efficient primaries in the GTVA.
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I'm kind of annoyed at the fact that the Myrmidon can't equip the Circe or Lamprey, as that at least that could have provided some additional justification for the extra bank(at least, prior to the re-release of the Prom-S).
In fact, looking closely, most Terran fighters can't equip it at all(the Lamprey being only slightly better in that respect); I'd love to try some serious Circe/Tempest action, but nothing short of the heavy assault fighters even allow the option(despite the "weapon of this magnitude is usually only mounted on bombers"-fluff Kayser being compatible with all fighters but the Pegasus and Ulysses).
Really, unless you like flying Vasudan(and many of their craft suffer from energy problems to begin with), :v: just didn't give the Circe or Lamprey any chance to shine at all(including the rather late introduction to the player in the main campaign). The Leech was compatible with all the FS1 fighters, and the S-Breaker(a quite arguably better version of the Circe) with all but the Loki.
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:V: didn't like the Circe, too. :D
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I think a Circe is a legitimate option for your other weapon if you don't mind the gun management - strip their shields, then blow them away with the Maxim.
The combo isn't powerful enough to justify the tediousness that comes with it.
Yes, this doesn't work well in practice. You end up using both of them at most times and get the fire rate penalty, which makes the combo useless. A far better option is to pair up the Maxim with Tempests instead. The Tempests appear to do less shield damage from the stats, but you get no fire rate penalty and don't have to worry about weapon switching.
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Hmm. Didn't I address the objections before they were made already?
As I said, I wouldn't plan to fire them linked... not more powerful than a single bank of Kaysers because rate of fire drops by a third, less convenient (shudder, different projectile speeds) and taking up a quarter more energy. Linked fire would have strictly more firepower than a single bank of Prometheus S but here the increased energy demand is rather dramatic and we'd lose effective range against shielded targets instead of gaining it.
Please keep in mind that I assumed 2+2 guns, 2 of which have to Maxims because we need them against capital ships; Maxims + Circes certainly aren't the armament of choice when pitted purely against fighters. Note that linked Circe/Maxim fire isn't dramatically worse than a single bank of Kaysers (which you may be unable to carry - most relevant in a Serapis as a Ulysses with Maxims is awkward since to very limited gun energy). So if you can squeeze any advantage out of weapon management you'll likely come out ahead.
I don't get the comment about Maxims and Tempests in combination. Both are biased towards hull damage, this would be rather horrid against shielded targets.
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Maxim/Circe is one of those things that sounds good in theory and is terrible in practice.
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How about Kayser/Maxim?
The Kayser depletes shields, not extremely fast, but once they go down you can switch to full guns and wipe anyhing out in seconds or less.
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You'll be out of weapon energy like THAT fast.
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How about Kayser/Maxim?
The Kayser depletes shields, not extremely fast, but once they go down you can switch to full guns and wipe anyhing out in seconds or less.
It's people like you who make the Lamprey worthwhile. :D
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Well obviously not in multi. Humans are too slippery to hold a single Kayser on for long enough.
AI would fold like a cheap pie.
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Well obviously not in multi. Humans are too slippery to hold a single Kayser on for long enough.
AI would fold like a cheap pie.
I've definitely seen some AI that can keep me swatting at air.
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Fury AI + Dragons.
Good luck hitting anything.
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I'd certainly rather have Kaysers than Circes up against Dragons.
EDIT: 'Cause they have this nasty habit of rolling a new shield quadrant into position before any can be sufficiently depleted.
/peruses wiki
Hmmm, perhaps a Prom S would work better than a Kayser for this situation. I'd still prefer almost anything over the Circe, becuase if you take that you completely lose the ability to destroy anything without switching weapons or spending ammo.
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Yeah, personally, I think the Prom-S is the best overall gun, especially if you're better at gunnery than flying(or, at least, maintaining a tracking shot on a target). Unless you can really use the Kayser's fast reload time to consistently drive the damage, the Prom-S does 20% more damage(per-shot) to shields, while the Kayser uses 20% more energy, and gains one whole extra point of damage vs hulls(all also given per-shot).
You also get increased range(longer than nearly all non-beam turret guns), +100m/s shot velocity(arguably increasing accuracy due to needing less leading of the target, and also in compensating for changes in direction), and even if you are already accurate, you still get to spend that saved energy on shields/gun -> shield energy transfer, or engine/afterburner recharge, as needed/useful.
Not to say the Kayser is bad, but more Awesome but Impractical, to the Prom-S's Boring(or at least, 'less exciting') but Practical.
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When I have to carry a maxim on insane I always go Prom S given the choice, I'll settle for a kayser but eh.
If I don't have to carry a maxim then the circe can still blow me, kayser/proms ftw.
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maxim used to be my alltime favorite gun. i used to be able to snipe long-range with them, like bombers heading toward their targets or a new wave driving straight at me. though overall i'm sure i've improved, i can't do that anymore. maybe it's the heavier joystick. now if only the damn thing didn't shake the fighter. what's the reasoning behind that anyway? was it for "cool factor"? cuz it's really just fking annoying. if it's because of it being a projectile weapon, those projectiles are infinitely smaller than the missles that DON'T shake the fighter when fired.
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The screen just shakes, actually. I don't think the weapon itself changes at all.
It's a good thing that effect is present, because otherwise the Maxim would be even more ridiculously powerful.
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The screen shakes but the weapon is still perfectly accurate. It doesn't actually shake your ship.
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I don't get the comment about Maxims and Tempests in combination. Both are biased towards hull damage, this would be rather horrid against shielded targets.
It depends on what you're fighting. The Tempests do reasonable shield damage on their own and the combo is surprisingly effective on fighters that don't have a quad primary bank. A Prometheus/Tempest or Kayser/Tempest setup is still better against Shivan fighters, while this Maxim/Tempest setup can work better against Terran or Vasudan fighters if you use it properly. I only started using it regularly a few years ago but found it very effective in several multiplayer co-op missions, with my kill counts going up dramatically.
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The screen shakes but the weapon is still perfectly accurate. It doesn't actually shake your ship.
i realize that, but fine adjustments aiming is essentially impossible at long range with sustained fire.
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:wtf:
It really is, use the mouse on low sensitivity..
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External view, people; external view.
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If I have a lot of time sometimes I switch to target orbit view, fire off a few range finding shots and then set movement controls to ship and adjust. 's fun sniping turrets and stuff.