Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Bonehead on June 08, 2010, 11:53:55 am
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I only ever saw two in the campaign - Aquitaine and Phoenicia. How many do you think they had at the time of Second Shivan Incursion?
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I'd say about a dozen, probably less. At least one per fleet, maybe more depending of the fleet. Was the Phoenicia in the same fleet than the Aquitaine ?
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Three destroyers are mentioned by name (Aeneas, Delacroix, Vengeance), but do not appear in any missions. And since their ship classes are not mentioned, you can never be sure. But it is possible that one or more of them are Hecates.
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the tech room says that they are replacing the Orions as flagship of terran battlegroups. replacing says to me that the process is still ongoing at the start of FS2 but im guessing most terran fleets posses at least two (assuming that battlegroup and fleet aren't being treated as interchangeable by :v:)
if battlegroup and Fleet are interchangeable then I'm guessing less than 12
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Don't forget the NTF had at least one, the NTD Corsica from Rebel Intercept. :)
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Isn't that a multiplayer mission ? What's the policy about the canonicity of multiplayer missions ?
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Isn't that a multiplayer mission ? What's the policy about the canonicity of multiplayer missions ?
I'd say they're canon but should be taken with a pinch of salt...
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it's an expanded V mission, done with patch 1.2.
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its also possible the NTD Cyrene was a hecate too. what we also dont know is how long the hecates have been in production to make an estimate. assuming the first hecate was the GTD Hecate, we can get a minimum of 5 destroyers, assuming that 2 of the mentioned destroyers are hecate, which is entirely possible. another good question would be how mny typhon class destroyers are still in service.
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its also possible the NTD Cyrene was a hecate too. what we also dont know is how long the hecates have been in production to make an estimate.
No, the Cyrene was definitely an Orion. It's seen in a CBAnim.
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NTF: http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/FreeSpace_2_Rebel_Ship_Database#NTD_Jacobus (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/FreeSpace_2_Rebel_Ship_Database#NTD_Jacobus)
GTVA: http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/FreeSpace_2_Terran_Ship_Database#GTD_Carthage (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/FreeSpace_2_Terran_Ship_Database#GTD_Carthage)
Corsica was a Hecate. The Jacobus and the Normandy could have been Hecates too.
Most NTF destroyers are Orions.
[shameless speculation]
I've always thought that the NTF was given outdated equipment to make them look inferior story-wise, though it actually gave them better equipment.
Or maybe the GTVA was secretly replacing their equipment with something best suited for peacekeeping until the NTF arrived and stole the rest.
Who knows... :nervous:
[/shameless speculation]
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Hum... Remember they still had the Shivan threat quite well in mind. The construction of the Colossus proves it quite well.
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Also, while they might not have gotten modern destroyers, they certainly scored some sweet Cruisers (wasn't it implicated that they had most of the produced Aeolus class Cruisers?) and a number of Deimos Corvettes. The NTF fleet was certainly not ill-equipped.
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Hum... Remember they still had the Shivan threat quite well in mind. The construction of the Colossus proves it quite well.
Yes, and perhaps they had to cut spendings for that.
I mean, there has to be some explanation or some excuse for the Hecate, the Subach, the Mentu, the Bonaerges (this one is practically admitted), the cancelling of the Aeolus production, the lame Fenris upgrade, the Myrmidon as a space superiority fighter when it should clearly have been a multi-role fighter, etc.
Maybe I'm wrong, that's why I said it was speculation, but there has to be some explanation...
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Subach is very good, and the Mentu is quite durable for an anti-fighter cruiser (and for a Vasudan cruiser, actually).
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If you go by the Aeolus tech room description, the NTF control about half of all constructed Aeolus cruisers...
Cutting Aeolus production is probably one of the worst calls the GTVA could have made. The Aeolus is probably the most effective cruiser in the game, perhaps aside from the Lilith, as it can swat down fighter wings like nothing else, and its only blind spot is in its engine wash.
The Myrmidon is labeled as a Space Superiority because, well, that's probably what it's closest too.
If you go purely with statistics, the Fenris actually has more anti-capital firepower than the Leviathan. Its LTerSlash actually outdamages the SGreen over time due to the SGreen's retardedly long reload time. Not that that would save if from anything, being made of paper...
Hecates carry more fightercraft than Orions and we all know that an extra wing of fighters in FreeSpace is far more valuable than an extra heavy beam cannon, especially since that said fighter wing can easily disarm the said beam cannon with little trouble. The Hecate also actually has means to defend itself from fighters and bombers, unlike the Orion which has like one blob turret to defend its entire flank which coincidentally has all its heavy weapons. You can approach an Orion from the side and never be targeted by a single point defense weapon, and then disarm all its beams without ever coming under fire.
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A lot of you guys are missing the point on the Aeolus. It was cancelled because the entire cruiser ship type was to be replaced by the corvette. And let's not deny that the Deimos is tougher than the Aeolus against both capships and fighters.
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I'd be surprised if the NTF had any Hecate destroyers, the second in command of the NTF was in command of an Orion and, in universe at least, the Hecate is seen as being superior.
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the second in command of the NTF was in command of an Orion
Who?
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the second in command of the NTF was in command of an Orion
Who?
Maybe he thinks its Koth?
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Subach is very good
Where is the Avenger? Where is the Banshee? Where is the Flail? Where is the S-Breaker? Why did the Alliance replaced all those excellent primaries with a weapon that, while good, is notably inferior?
the Mentu is quite durable for an anti-fighter cruiser (and for a Vasudan cruiser, actually)
Oh! It is good in the anti-fighter role. But it's still not good enough in the anti-capital role for a cruiser.
If you go purely with statistics, the Fenris actually has more anti-capital firepower than the Leviathan. Its LTerSlash actually outdamages the SGreen over time due to the SGreen's retardedly long reload time. Not that that would save if from anything, being made of paper...
Yes, but the LTerSlash is only useful against something destroyer-sized or above. And we have already seen how badly the Fenris performs against destroyers like the Psamtik.
The Myrmidon is labeled as a Space Superiority because, well, that's probably what it's closest too.
Insufficient. The Myrmidon is a multi-role fighter, something you would build if you were trying to cut the maintenance costs. It should have been labeled as such, unless the Alliance didn't wanted to make it obvious that they were replacing the Ulysses and Apollo with something cheaper and inferior.
It kinds of reminds me to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMA_SAIA_90 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMA_SAIA_90)
Some people had the balls to call that air superiority, even though it was clear, even for a layman like me, that it was only a cheap multi-role fighter with some stealth capabilities, and no match for the real air superiority craft of those years.
Hecates carry more fightercraft than Orions and we all know that an extra wing of fighters in FreeSpace is far more valuable than an extra heavy beam cannon, especially since that said fighter wing can easily disarm the said beam cannon with little trouble. The Hecate also actually has means to defend itself from fighters and bombers, unlike the Orion which has like one blob turret to defend its entire flank which coincidentally has all its heavy weapons. You can approach an Orion from the side and never be targeted by a single point defense weapon, and then disarm all its beams without ever coming under fire.
Granted. That sounds like a good enough explanation to me (altough I still prefer the Orion).
the entire cruiser ship type was to be replaced by the corvette
Yeah, I'll believe it when I see it :lol: . But that sounds like a good enough explanation too.
Poor RNI shipyards though. :(
I'd be surprised if the NTF had any Hecate destroyers,
Again, it has been canonicaly stated that they had the NTD Corsica.
So:
I mean, there has to be some explanation or some excuse for the Hecate, the Subach, the Mentu, the Bonaerges (this one is practically admitted), the cancelling of the Aeolus production, the lame Fenris upgrade, the Myrmidon as a space superiority fighter when it should clearly have been a multi-role fighter, etc.
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According to DaveBs Freespace fleet layout Doc the GTVA had nine Hecates at the time of the second invasion.
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Double-post because I just want to make this clear: I'm not bashing the Myrmidon. I like it. It's flexible, it serves multiple purposes well, and in some cases it is superior to the Apollo. It's just not space superiority in the traditional sense.
EDIT: Bah', it's not a doublepost anymore. Thanks Dekker. :lol:
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Question: Why does it even matter what we call it? It's still a fighter.
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Question: Why does it even matter what we call it? It's still a fighter.
If it's inferior on the space superiority role than its predecessors, and yet still you label it as space superiority and claim it's a replacement, then you're replacing a superior asset with an inferior one without wanting to admit it, so you should have a reason.
Question: Having the Apollo, Ulysses and Loki, and the technology to produce them, why did the Alliance replaced them with something worse in the role? :confused: As I said, I could be wrong. But I've yet to hear a better theory to justify such illogical decisions.
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According to DaveBs Freespace fleet layout Doc the GTVA had nine Hecates at the time of the second invasion.
Where can I get that doc?
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According to DaveBs Freespace fleet layout Doc the GTVA had nine Hecates at the time of the second invasion.
Where can I get that doc?
That's actually a good question. I want to read it too.
Even assuming the Aeneas, Delacroix and Vengeance were all Hecates, four Hecate destroyers are still missing.
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According to DaveBs Freespace fleet layout Doc the GTVA had nine Hecates at the time of the second invasion.
I think you are referring to the fleet guide made by Su-tehp, which is fanmade. I have never heard of anything Dave wrote on this.
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It kinds of reminds me to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMA_SAIA_90
Who... wrote that article. My brain, it hurts.
Although it was desirable to achieve a combination of the advantages that a very loaded wing delta and little weight offers; the turn capacity to régime transonic/subsonic of one darted with small lengthening, the stability of a wing delta without line plane and the character STOL of a wing of arrow variable, was impossible to gather all these qualities in a wing.
The opposing solution of commitment for the pattern, was the continuation of the border of attack of the wings that generated a vortex of high energy (apex) and it improved the aerodynamic yield notably in big angles of incidence. Another characteristic of the design was the artificial longitudinal stability that allowed equilibrating the airplane by means of the application of positive forces on the line planes.
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Now that you mention it, the Spanish version is poorly redacted too. Not that I can complain about the English version though, since I would probably do a worse job if I tried. :p
Nah', screw the SAIA 90, it was never completed anyway, and it's a bit embarrassing :lol: . The Military Aircraft Factory really has better things from its history to show in Wikipedia than that.
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Question: Having the Apollo, Ulysses and Loki, and the technology to produce them, why did the Alliance replaced them with something worse in the role? As I said, I could be wrong. But I've yet to hear a better theory to justify such illogical decisions.
the main production facilities were located at vasuda prime and/or Sol?
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Question: Having the Apollo, Ulysses and Loki, and the technology to produce them, why did the Alliance replaced them with something worse in the role? As I said, I could be wrong. But I've yet to hear a better theory to justify such illogical decisions.
the main production facilities were located at vasuda prime and/or Sol?
Plausible for the Loki and Uly, but I thought the Apollo was meant to be a fairly durable and simple fightercraft- aka one that could probably be produced elsewhere. Not that us or the Zods could have anticipated losing our respective homeworlds during the Great War, though.
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Question: Having the Apollo, Ulysses and Loki, and the technology to produce them, why did the Alliance replaced them with something worse in the role? As I said, I could be wrong. But I've yet to hear a better theory to justify such illogical decisions.
the main production facilities were located at vasuda prime and/or Sol?
Possible. But a better option would have been to simply reverse engineer the crafts, adapt current facilities accordingly, and begin producing them again.
Or, if you're going to replace them, replace them with something better. Unless you wanted to replace them with something cheaper to begin with.
Anyway, I don't think there was so much technology and industrial capacity lost after the node collapsed if they could still built other, more advanced craft like the Herc II. They should have been able to adapt.
But again, that's a possible explanation.
I mean, there has to be some explanation or some excuse for the Hecate, the Subach, the Mentu, the Bonaerges (this one is practically admitted), the cancelling of the Aeolus production, the lame Fenris upgrade, the Myrmidon as a space superiority fighter when it should clearly have been a multi-role fighter, etc.
EDIT: Hold on! The Loki's production facilities weren't in Sol. In fact, the NTF was still using the Loki. The argument still holds.
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They lost the capability to produce the Prometheus cannon which indicates that they lost 'something'. Maybe they also lost the ability to produce some better ships.
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They lost the capability to produce the Prometheus cannon which indicates that they lost 'something'. Maybe they also lost the ability to produce some better ships.
They had the capability to produce the Prometheus cannon. They lacked the necessary materials. That's why production was resumed after they discovered the nebula.
Also, read the edit at the end of my previous post.
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EDIT: Hold on! The Loki's production facilities weren't in Sol. In fact, the NTF was still using the Loki. The argument still holds.
Cite the first, please. The NTF were still using the Ulysses to, to the second.
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EDIT: Hold on! The Loki's production facilities weren't in Sol. In fact, the NTF was still using the Loki. The argument still holds.
Cite the first, please.
The Loki was designed and produced during the GTI rebelion. The node to Sol had already collapsed by that time.
The NTF were still using the Ulysses to, to the second.
That's actually better for my argument. That means there were production facilities for the Ulysses outside Sol and Vasuda.
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According to DaveBs Freespace fleet layout Doc the GTVA had nine Hecates at the time of the second invasion.
Where can I get that doc?
I'm just pulling your leg.
It was from made-up land :D
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I'm pretty sure the Myrmidon is superior or is at least suppose to be superior to the Apollo and Ulysses considering this on the first mission.
Welcome to Vega, Ensign. I am Lieutenant Loukakis, squadron leader of the 53rd Hammerheads. You have been assigned to our unit. The Hammerheads are a space superiority squadron. We'll be flying the Myrmidon fighter, developed to replace the old GTF Ulysses. The Myrmidon is a Terran-Vasudan design and a versatile ship with high marks for speed, maneuverability, armor, and loadout.
The Apollo was hands down out of of production by the end of the Great War. You don't see many if any of them left. The Ulysses took over its role. The same probably happened to the Ulysses with the Myrmidon.
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the apollo could have also had reactor issues with the shielding technology as it was not designed with shields in mind nd retrofitted with them. perhaps the GTVA wanted a space supiriority-ish fighter with shields in the main design with a larger missile capacity than the ulysseys. the myrm is also faster and has greater secondary compatability than the apollo, because the apollo has no anyi-bomber missile capacity while myrmi has trebs
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A lot of you guys are missing the point on the Aeolus. It was cancelled because the entire cruiser ship type was to be replaced by the corvette. And let's not deny that the Deimos is tougher than the Aeolus against both capships and fighters.
Was there some mention about how costly Aeolus cruisers are to produce? Or is that non-canon?
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A lot of you guys are missing the point on the Aeolus. It was cancelled because the entire cruiser ship type was to be replaced by the corvette. And let's not deny that the Deimos is tougher than the Aeolus against both capships and fighters.
Was there some mention about how costly Aeolus cruisers are to produce? Or is that non-canon?
It's non-canon.
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A lot of you guys are missing the point on the Aeolus. It was cancelled because the entire cruiser ship type was to be replaced by the corvette. And let's not deny that the Deimos is tougher than the Aeolus against both capships and fighters.
Was there some mention about how costly Aeolus cruisers are to produce? Or is that non-canon?
It's non-canon.
Yeah, it's non-canon but very widely accepted since it makes a lot of sense.
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Is it even official canon that the Aeolus was discontinued? I thought its tech room description was hidden.
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Its still there, and its fairly obvious the tech room description is serious and not a joke.
Of course, tech room descriptions also have the notorious reputation of just being WRONG many times...
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We could spend an entire day listing down all the inaccuracies.
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Is it even official canon that the Aeolus was discontinued? I thought its tech room description was hidden.
Well it's canon at best and quasi-canon at worst. I take anything seriously stated by :v: to be canon, but that's just me.
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My interpretation is that the Aeolus was more cost-effective than either a Fenris or a Leviathan, but less than a Deimos which is why it was discontinued.
[offtopic]Is anyone else tempted to say "all of them" whenever they see the thread title? :nervous:[/offtopic]
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The Deimos TR description does tend to support the idea that the GTVA intended to replace cruisers with corvettes:
As the Leviathan and Fenris cruisers of the Great War are gradually phased out, these corvettes will become the foundation of tomorrow's fleet.
If the GTVA has that much money to spend, cool, but I fail to see how the Aeolus would not be a much more cost-efficient convoy escort vessel to fill some of the standard cruiser roles.
Unless the sheer flak-dakka that an Aeolus expends in a standard engagement tends to drain it of ammo, or something else that honestly limits the ship to some significant extent, yet isn't obvious to the player in a single mission.
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i cant imagine the aeolus costs so much that its more exspensive than a ship twice its length which has more crew tht need to be paid.
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i cant imagine the aeolus costs so much that its more exspensive than a ship twice its length which has more crew tht need to be paid.
It's not so much price as cost effectiveness.
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I don't think a Deimos is as cost effective as an Aeolus in escorting a small convoy TBH...
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I think they thought they had enough Fenris and Levithan cruisers to do escort and expeditionary roles that the Aeolus, regardless of how much more effective, was overkill for the role.
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The reason the Terrans don't like cruisers -- and again this is my interpretation -- is heavy fighters with Hornets. Cruisers wouldn't disappear, but they would become rarer.
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I don't think a Deimos is as cost effective as an Aeolus in escorting a small convoy TBH...
A wing of fighters can do the job of an Aeolus much more easily.
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I don't think a Deimos is as cost effective as an Aeolus in escorting a small convoy TBH...
A wing of fighters can do the job of an Aeolus much more easily.
Mmmmmmm...depends.
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I don't think a Deimos is as cost effective as an Aeolus in escorting a small convoy TBH...
A wing of fighters can do the job of an Aeolus much more easily.
Mmmmmmm...depends.
Just send QD.
See! I didn't say Alpha 1! Haha!
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So is there a document anywhere (I don't care if it's non-canon) that details the different fleets and their ships?
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So is there a document anywhere (I don't care if it's non-canon) that details the different fleets and their ships?
If you want a non-canon one, you could always write one!
I think there's a speculative fleet list somewhere.
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Well, Here (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Terran_Fleet_Organization#GTVA_Terran_Fleet_Organization_Notes)'s a fleets and the systems they're assigned to.
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Well, Here (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Terran_Fleet_Organization#GTVA_Terran_Fleet_Organization_Notes)'s a fleets and the systems they're assigned to.
Great link, thanks.
26 fleets is a lot.
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26 fleets is a lot.
I doubt the 12th and 13th fleet would have more than a couple of corvettes.
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Just not that's completely non-canon and I don't agree with it. The Vasudan Fleet Organization thing makes no sense. neither does the NTF one.
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26 fleets is a lot.
I doubt the 12th and 13th fleet would have more than a couple of corvettes.
The 13th vasudan battlegroup had at least one destroyer...
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The 13th was the Psamtik's battlegroup. The Toeris, Hedetet, Memphis etc. might all have been part of the 13th.
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I was talking about the 13th Terran fleet of Ross 128 as described in the Fredzone Fleet Organisation, not the 13rd Vasudan Battlegroup.
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Why would the battlegroup/fleet composition vary so much between the two halves of the GTVA?
The Terrans even have more systems...
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Why would the battlegroup/fleet composition vary so much between the two halves of the GTVA?
The Terrans even have more systems...
IMO, a Battle Group is organized differently to a Terran fleet. I think Battle Groups are commonly formed and disbanded. Perhaps a ship can be part of more than one Battle Group at a time.
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26 fleets is a lot.
I doubt the 12th and 13th fleet would have more than a couple of corvettes.
I doubt this, well, that they'd have serious skeleton fleets. The GTVA needs an actual Fleet sized element in each system, because no one knows where on Earth the Shivans are going to come out from. I propose rather, that many of the ships we see are rotated from other Fleets into 3rd and 4th fleet in the retail campaign to keep the sorties from falling on the same guys and girls the whole time.
That way most GTVA members get valuable combat experience, and we minimize psychological casualties. I don't doubt that perhaps the 3rd and 4th were bolstered, but it's not they cobbled together a few cruisers and a corvette in each system and called it a Fleet to make the system's population feel better.
Why would the battlegroup/fleet composition vary so much between the two halves of the GTVA?
The Terrans even have more systems...
IMO, a Battle Group is organized differently to a Terran fleet. I think Battle Groups are commonly formed and disbanded. Perhaps a ship can be part of more than one Battle Group at a time.
Well, you can only really be part of one BG at one time. But it's likely ships were part of different BG's at different stages. I think :v: used the word BG in place of Fleet to avoid player confusion.