Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The FRED Workshop => Topic started by: starwolf1991 on June 27, 2010, 11:16:41 am
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So recently I was in that mood where you really want to make your own campaign and you're about to start, but after realizing all that stuff that goes into making it work, you think "Oh god no, maybe I shouldn't because its all way too much." And I hate to admit it happens often. But then I thought about this:
"What if I were to just develop a few simple missions? Tweak them, test them, see how they go while the idea is fresh. After a while, if I believe they are good enough and the idea is still stuck in my mind, then add custom content from there."
Would this be an ideal or suitable approach for developing a campaign? I'd appreciate some opinions or suggestions on the matter.
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Yep, that's pretty much the ideal approach. Once you get your missions in a state where you can see what (if anything) you need in terms of custom assets, you're in a better position to start building your modpack. I think that, if you start gathering assets without a firm plan in mind what to use them for, you're going to end up with a mess of unused assets.
Also remember that debug builds are your friends when modding; start using them during the early stages of your mod's development to find and squash any bugs you can find in your assets.
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I thought I'd ask because...well, its kinda obvious. Making a campaign of my own that'll actually work in the long run is something I've always wanted to do.
I'll admit, I have attempted making campaigns of my own in the past (EG. FS1 Era, Post FS2 Era, you name it). Usually, they fail because of whatever approach I take. Cerberus, I guess, is a good example. I went content over missions, and look where that has got me.
It never really crossed my mind until recently that perhaps starting off with making missions, wherever for my own or someone else's campaign, is the way to go.
Would it also be suitable to, after making the first few missions and putting together the assets you want for them, announce your now long-term project and get some opinions from others first, or keep everything quiet until you get really far and feel it deserves showing to the public?
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Personally, I feel that if you have something presentable, you should present it in some form. As a demo, or by asking for beta testers. There is nothing that gets the creative juices flowing like a good dose of publicity.
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If you just want to start FREDing missions first, try the FRED academy. My situation is a lot like yours, but I abandoned my ambition to start making a campaign long ago out of pessimism. Hopefully you'll have better luck.
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Lol I know enough about mission design to competently make levels. But thanks for mentioning the Fred Academy :lol:
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"What if I were to just develop a few simple missions? Tweak them, test them, see how they go while the idea is fresh. After a while, if I believe they are good enough and the idea is still stuck in my mind, then add custom content from there."
That makes a lot of sense. In fact, I think more campaign developers are taking this approach today than they once used to. There was a time on HLP when most people focused on models and other assets before anything else, and a lot of campaigns became defunct before even getting to the actual mission design stage.
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"What if I were to just develop a few simple missions? Tweak them, test them, see how they go while the idea is fresh. After a while, if I believe they are good enough and the idea is still stuck in my mind, then add custom content from there."
This is just what my brother is doing for Vasudan Imperium (FSPort forum.) He's releasing the missions as he does them.
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This is just what my brother is doing for Vasudan Imperium (FSPort forum.) He's releasing the missions as he does them.
I don't think it's as easy for beginning FREDders to do this, as we don't have the reputation to draw attention nor do we have an included mission in a popular mod. I might try to do this at some point to see how it goes, though.
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Most newbie FREDders have only played FS and a few of the big, polished campaigns. The problem with that is since those missions are so well put together it's hard for a new FREDder to see why they work so well and why their first missions probably won't. These campaigns have been put together by people with years of experience using FRED but more importantly they have years of experience in what works and what doesn't in mission design.
I'd personally suggest playing the FRED Academy missions and notice what people did wrong there. Take note of what makes a mission too hard, too easy, too boring, too repetitive. By playing missions by other newbies you'll see the big, glaring mistakes much more easily and learn from them without having to make them yourselves.
You'd also help make the Academy useful again cause at the moment not enough people playtest the missions.
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This is just what my brother is doing for Vasudan Imperium (FSPort forum.) He's releasing the missions as he does them.
I don't think it's as easy for beginning FREDders to do this, as we don't have the reputation to draw attention nor do we have an included mission in a popular mod. I might try to do this at some point to see how it goes, though.
I think you are wrong. Starting with a single mission is a great way to build a reputation to draw attention. There are plenty of people on this board that will play random stuff that is posted.
Also, the shorter this stuff is, the better, because there can be faster iteration on the mission(s) (ie. faster feedback, faster fixing the problems in the mission, etc). Also, if it is a single mission the more likely someone will finish it in a single sitting, which also means more people will play it faster.
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Single missions tend to get ignored actually. I've seen quite a few cases of that happening on this very board.
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Agreed, there's almost zero chance I (for one) will DL and play a single mission. That may be something I should change.
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Single missions tend to get ignored actually. I've seen quite a few cases of that happening on this very board.
I posted a mission roughly a month ago and got a good ammount of tips and suggestions for improvement (special thanks to FelixJim and Dilmah G). Releasing a single mission is a great way to get feedback from others, see how you are doing etc. Instead of publicty, I think releasing a single mission is good for the developer both for help and motivation. You also get that sense of satisfaction that something of yours is out there (popular or not), which makes you want to continue. Definately recommended, just try to make that first mission the best you can make it. Read the help documentation in FRED and browse the stickies.
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Single missions tend to get ignored actually. I've seen quite a few cases of that happening on this very board.
Well that could be as I am not a regular resident of this board, but anytime I have wandered in it seems that the the single missions get at least as much attention as anything other unannounced releases. Obviously they won't get the attention that the big name campaigns do (like anyone that is listed in the hosted menu at the top of the site) but they have all (that I have seen) been downloaded.
Agreed, there's almost zero chance I (for one) will DL and play a single mission. That may be something I should change.
Thats too bad. And is something that I don't really understand the thought process behind. Is it that installing a single mission is just too much work for the less than an hour of entertainment (cringing)? Or what?
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Wow! A lot of opinions all around!
This is more than enough motivation for me to really start working towards a new project. Might take me a long time to get to where I want or have something of high enough quality, but this time, I at least have the motivation I need.
Thanks heaps, guys. Really appreciate it.
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Single missions tend to get ignored actually. I've seen quite a few cases of that happening on this very board.
I have noticed this too, and it's unfortunate. I remember standalone missions were given a lot more attention at one point, back in the days of the VBB and Xanadu's archive, but today there are enough good campaigns being released that they tend to crowd out any standalone missions.
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Ah damnit, guess motivation isn't just everything. What ever happened to mah originality and inspiration? :ick:
Anyone find that's the hardest part of making a campaign? Try to be original in as many ways as possible?
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Single missions tend to get ignored actually. I've seen quite a few cases of that happening on this very board.
I have noticed this too, and it's unfortunate. I remember standalone missions were given a lot more attention at one point, back in the days of the VBB and Xanadu's archive, but today there are enough good campaigns being released that they tend to crowd out any standalone missions.
My first ever released item in the community was a standalone mission, and it got some feedback that's helped me since. :)
(thanks to all involved. You know who are.)
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If you're still trying to create new content for your campaign with all the crap we have lying around, you're an idiot.
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Ah damnit, guess motivation isn't just everything. What ever happened to mah originality and inspiration? :ick:
Anyone find that's the hardest part of making a campaign? Try to be original in as many ways as possible?
Trying to be as original as you can be for your first release is probably not a good idea. You run the risk of having too many ideas you're trying to pull off at once, where it might be a better way to concentrate on one or two features you know you can pull off well.
A solidly done minicampaign or mission that showcases some new feature will, I think, get more and better feedback than a mission or campaign that tries to cram in a dozen of them.
If you're still trying to create new content for your campaign with all the crap we have lying around, you're an idiot.
I take it he was more talking about new gameplay ideas. Those are always a good thing to have.
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If you're still trying to create new content for your campaign with all the crap we have lying around, you're an idiot.
Lol who you directing that at? If me, I'm not referring to Cerberus
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I take it he was more talking about new gameplay ideas. Those are always a good thing to have.
At this point, I doubt it. It is entirely possible to create and execute a good story with the toolset, ideas, and assets that came with Retail; retail itself did so. Yet the fandom is littered with the unmarked graves of projects and developers who rejected this idea and consequently never got anywhere, and the monuments of projects that have all kinds of content locked up and going nowhere for the very same reason.
Even extending only to the least-opaque improvements the SCP has made to the FREDding tools and off-the-shelf models, tables, and effects, and what the collective brainpower of the community has already proposed and is possible without serious scripting, we have more freedom than just about any other modding community. Yes, there are things that we don't have that I particularly would like, but they're hardly critical to any campaign I would build. At this point I don't think I or anyone else has room to complain their options are limited and they absolutely must have new features or new models or new effects or do something really new and different. It might make their lives easier, but they don't actually need it. They could write around it, or write another, equally good, story with the tools at hand. They just don't want to.
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If you're still trying to create new content for your campaign with all the crap we have lying around, you're an idiot.
I wouldn't go that far. I would however say that it probably applies if you're trying to make a new campaign using only retail/upgrade models and a lot of models you made yourself.
Making an entire mod single-handed is such a large task that as far as I know, no one has ever done it yet.
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Making an entire mod single-handed is such a large task that as far as I know, no one has ever done it yet.
*Raises hand*
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Single missions tend to get ignored actually. I've seen quite a few cases of that happening on this very board.
I have noticed this too, and it's unfortunate. I remember standalone missions were given a lot more attention at one point, back in the days of the VBB and Xanadu's archive, but today there are enough good campaigns being released that they tend to crowd out any standalone missions.
I have noticed this too... but I've also noticed standalone missions that get a lot of feedback. It probably depends on the thread. If you make such a thread, it wouldn't hurt to give a big tantalizing description in the first post so that people will want to play it.
It would also help if we had a good single-mission repository, like the old Volition Watch Archive. FSMods might qualify, but I don't know that people actually search for missions using it.
Even extending only to the least-opaque improvements the SCP has made to the FREDding tools and off-the-shelf models, tables, and effects, and what the collective brainpower of the community has already proposed and is possible without serious scripting, we have more freedom than just about any other modding community. Yes, there are things that we don't have that I particularly would like, but they're hardly critical to any campaign I would build. At this point I don't think I or anyone else has room to complain their options are limited and they absolutely must have new features or new models or new effects or do something really new and different. It might make their lives easier, but they don't actually need it. They could write around it, or write another, equally good, story with the tools at hand. They just don't want to.
I would definitely agree with this. To quote Derelict, "it is a poor space jockey that blames their lack of skill on their equipment." :) I've made both retail-compatible and FSO-only campaigns, so I know it's possible.
Making an entire mod single-handed is such a large task that as far as I know, no one has ever done it yet.
Mmmm... Blaise Russel, with Sol: A History? Grunt, with The Centaur Project?
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*Stumbles across thread*
Stuck in the same campaign rut too, I lost count, and now I'm out of free time. I have no idea how many times I created a new folder and put files in it only for it to be obsolete because I created a new folder and put files in it. =\
Where files refer to well, data files of any mod, missions, effects, maps, models etc...
Even if I did learn anything from all those failures I still think I didn't get far beyond the ship and weapon tables and singular testing of added things... =\
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Mmmm... Blaise Russel, with Sol: A History? Grunt, with The Centaur Project?
SoL : A History used Inferno ships so it hardly counts as single-handed modding. Centaur Project has 3 members according to their website.
@Spoon. What did you do? Bear in mind that by mod I mean it in the context I was using when replying to NGTM-1R where someone decides to make a campaign with quite a few ships they'll make themselves.
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How many is "a lot"?
I released Renegade Resurgence with 3 new models plus some new missiles. I suppose that doesn't make "a lot".
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Not to put down your work TopAce but the quality of your RR mods was the worst thing in that campaign.
That does highlight another problem that exists in this community, Jack of all trades syndrome. Where newbie members think that they can mod, table and FRED an entire campaign themselves and still have it be the same quality as one done by a team.
While we do have some individuals who are talented enough to do all that, it takes a lot of time to learn all those skills and put them into practice. While I'd never want to discourage someone from trying a little of everything so that they can find their niche, it's not a good idea to plan to make an entire campaign full of kick-arse ships when you've only just started learning Blender. :)
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Not to put down your work TopAce but the quality of your RR mods was the worst thing in that campaign.
I'm aware of that. :) Well, I *was* a noob then, so I fell into this trap.
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It would also help if we had a good single-mission repository, like the old Volition Watch Archive. FSMods might qualify, but I don't know that people actually search for missions using it.
I was thinking the same thing. wxLauncher 2.0 (see signature) could provide that type of repository to ease installation and what not. But it really depends on the answer to the question that I posed to General Battuta:Thats too bad. And is something that I don't really understand the thought process behind. Is it that installing a single mission is just too much work for the less than an hour of entertainment (cringing)? Or what?
Note I am not trying to call Battuta out on this, but actually anyone that doesn't play the single missions. So I ask anyone that doesn't play single missions, why?
Because if it is the effort of installing the mission that is something that can be fixed with more technology. But it if is just a general lack of interest in playing the mission to start with, obviously, no amount of technology can make someone play a mission.
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@Spoon. What did you do? Bear in mind that by mod I mean it in the context I was using when replying to NGTM-1R where someone decides to make a campaign with quite a few ships they'll make themselves.
Yeah (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=68203.0)
I pretty much did exactly what you are trying to discourage, in one year time. Learning all the skills and making a close to total conversion single handedly.
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FreeSpaceMods is just as good as a repository as a new, dedicated single-mission repository would be. It's not a matter of not having a place for single missions, it's the apparent lack of interest, the cause of which I'd be interested to see unveiled and explained. I'm thinking along the lines of storytelling. People, in my observation, are willing to listen to complete stories told in a full campaign.
Or perhaps there is not much to say about one and only one mission, provided it's well made enough not to draw harsh criticism. I released once an "Escort a Deimos to a node" single mission, for which people submitted feedback such as "it's a standard escort mission" or "Good job!"
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SoL : A History used Inferno ships so it hardly counts as single-handed modding. Centaur Project has 3 members according to their website.
All right then, what about Seeds of Rebellion and The Mercury Affair? Are you conceding defeat on those? :D
Note I am not trying to call Battuta out on this, but actually anyone that doesn't play the single missions. So I ask anyone that doesn't play single missions, why?
Because if it is the effort of installing the mission that is something that can be fixed with more technology. But it if is just a general lack of interest in playing the mission to start with, obviously, no amount of technology can make someone play a mission.
Speaking just for myself, I've played almost every mission on the Archives that was reviewed with three stars or higher, and a few that were rated lower but looked interesting. I've also played several missions that weren't reviewed at all, but had interesting descriptions.
So maybe we need a good review system, in addition to the ability to easily browse a repository of missions.
I pretty much did exactly what you are trying to discourage, in one year time. Learning all the skills and making a close to total conversion single handedly.
Wow. I never heard of that. It needs more publicity. Make a wiki page for it, and then feature it. :)
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I pretty much did exactly what you are trying to discourage, in one year time. Learning all the skills and making a close to total conversion single handedly.
That's actually what I would encourage.
I mean, if you want to get something done, you gotta do it yourself :/ (or use stuff that's already been done for you, which isn't really an option if you're doing a near-TC).
Unless you have excellent chemistry between members of your team, and everyone's completely devoted to the project, something's going to drag it down.
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I pretty much did exactly what you are trying to discourage, in one year time. Learning all the skills and making a close to total conversion single handedly.
That's actually what I would encourage.
I mean, if you want to get something done, you gotta do it yourself :/ (or use stuff that's already been done for you).
Unless you have excellent chemistry between members of your team, and everyone's completely devoted to the project, something's going to drag it down.
If you're working with adults I don't think this is as much of a problem.
Then again, IPAndrews!
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@Spoon. What did you do? Bear in mind that by mod I mean it in the context I was using when replying to NGTM-1R where someone decides to make a campaign with quite a few ships they'll make themselves.
Yeah (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=68203.0)
I pretty much did exactly what you are trying to discourage, in one year time. Learning all the skills and making a close to total conversion single handedly.
You really ought to get that mod on the Wiki cause I did look on here (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Campaign_List) for your username and found nothing. :p
Not to take anything away from your achievement but you did make low poly ships. Personally I think that's a good idea as it means that you can actually get done in a reasonable time frame but most people are not willing to make that concession and would go straight to high-poly for their mod.
Still, your success story aside, do you agree that in general it's a bad idea to try to make a total conversion single-handed from the outset? The point I'm trying to make here isn't that you shouldn't try, but that you should start out small and see if you have the skills and dedication to do it first before you start on a 20 mission campaign featuring 30 new ship classes.
All right then, what about Seeds of Rebellion and The Mercury Affair? Are you conceding defeat on those? :D
Given that neither are released after 9 years in the community I doubt I could make the point that it was a good idea to start that way. :p Furthermore neither campaign is a particularly big mod. TMA only featured one new ship and SoR featured one new ship and one new weapon.
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FreeSpaceMods is just as good as a repository as a new, dedicated single-mission repository would be. It's not a matter of not having a place for single missions, it's the apparent lack of interest, the cause of which I'd be interested to see unveiled and explained. I'm thinking along the lines of storytelling. People, in my observation, are willing to listen to complete stories told in a full campaign.
Or perhaps there is not much to say about one and only one mission, provided it's well made enough not to draw harsh criticism. I released once an "Escort a Deimos to a node" single mission, for which people submitted feedback such as "it's a standard escort mission" or "Good job!"
I think the first point in particular is very true, or at least it is for me. When I take the time to sit down and play FS2, I'm generally in the mood to work my way through a story, which individual stand-alone missions obviously can't really do. With a few rare exceptions, the vast majority of released missions fall into a few basic archetypes, so full-fledged campaigns have the advantage in that they provide a framework to make those same escort/assault missions seem more compelling. That isn't to say that an individual mission couldn't do something really awesome in its own right, but I think it's easier to do so in the context of an overall storyline.
I'll also agree with you on the second point, that it's hard to give large amounts of feedback on a relatively-straightforward mission. I've been toying around with the idea of trying to put together a simple escort mission, just to see if I can't wrap my head around how FRED works, but I'd imagine that most people wouldn't be all that interested in playing something that's been done so many times before.
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Still, your success story aside, do you agree that in general it's a bad idea to try to make a total conversion single-handed from the outset? The point I'm trying to make here isn't that you shouldn't try, but that you should start out small and see if you have the skills and dedication to do it first before you start on a 20 mission campaign featuring 30 new ship classes.
In general that is probably the best way to go about it yeah.
In my case I spend a lot of time reading the wiki, searching the forum and if that failed, post a thread or ask in irc. (Being a NEET with a lot of free time also helps).
Not to take anything away from your achievement but you did make low poly ships. Personally I think that's a good idea as it means that you can actually get done in a reasonable time frame but most people are not willing to make that concession and would go straight to high-poly for their mod.
I decided from the get go that I was not going to be trapped in the high poly swamp. Good for me I guess, since I actually got something done this way :p
Before embarking on a large project, ask yourself: "Will I have actual time to work on it and complete it?" and "How am I going to keep myself motivated?"
Your answers should help you determine if you feel like you can start big or if you are better off starting small (In my personal case I could answer the first one with a yes and the second one with "Weeee, playing around with my own ingame models is fun. Ooooh, what if I make a BoE and just look at it? Weeee weapon effects. Oh, normal maps? Lessee, how do I make these? Ooooh, that makes things look awesome in game!" :p )
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Geez, this topic has really evolved, hasn't it?
(Looks around nervously) :nervous:
Well, I don't seem to be having much luck with coming up with a good initial plot for.....well, you know. Something I could start from. I've been looking at all the different eras that freespace has to offer when I consider a plot. But, nothing seems to really catch on, you know? Especially if it is similar to something that's already be done.
I guess its because I constantly aim to be original with whatever I do modding wise. And of course, as someone already said, being original all the time isn't exactly a good thing. But I rather be original than not, so that somebody doesn't start jumping up and down and say stuff like "OMG, you copied my idea or thing, scrap it" or something.
But nah, I've never been much of a storywriter. I better at making stuff for the story rather than making the story itself.
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Perhaps just releasing something whether it's original and good or neither is worth it. The feedback could be the direction you need to make a better job next time.
I think new modders / FREDders (myself included) can be a bit too self conscious about their work (not that that's a bad thing) but sometimes a bad experience is what you need to identify your faults that you think you have and some you may even not know about.
There are plenty of experienced people here willing to help point you in the right direction if you're happy to take criticism.
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I think being overly self-conscious about your missions is a good thing. I always am, it helps you view things objectively to a certain point and polish up your mission.
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Attached here is something I built as a plot device to work from. It is a command briefing sized starchart, set in the north-eastern sector of the freespace universe. I've tried to stay as close to possible to the starcharts that are available to the community, mainly the one created by Blackwater Operations. It took me about half an hour in Gimp to create.
The only non-canon system there is the Endymion system. That is where I intend any future campaign to take place in. And yes, there is a little bit of distance between the systems, nodelines and titles. This was done to leave enough room for marker rings or whatever that highlight the system of interest. The stuff is not color-coded yet. The nodelines will be coloured, and I believe the same for the spheres respresenting stars (They should be in their real-life colors), but maybe titles colored based on the status of system?
Anyway, comments appreciated.
Edit: Did some coloring, not quite so sure about Regulus. Some people/references say white-blue and others say red. Anyone know which color is right?
Edit #2: Another version. Wasn't fully satisfied with the previous one. Added a background nebula, changed the icons representing system and reworked their colours, changed the colours of the nodelines, and bolded the system names.
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