Hard Light Productions Forums
Site Management => Site Support / Feedback => Topic started by: Mobius on July 31, 2010, 10:21:07 am
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Hello,
I'm working on very long descriptions, biographies, fictions, etc. etc. for Inferno, and a few minutes ago, upon adding my latest work to the description of an INF faction (which, despite the massive addition, is still WIP), I realized the description goes well beyond the 50.000 characters limit. Cutting what I wrote in a half didn't work, as it kept breaking the limit. I'd like to know if it's possible to raise the limit to 100.000, 150.000 or even 200.000 characters to make things easier to handle. At some point, these descriptions will be made public and I think it's a bit unpractical to waste 2-4 posts at the beginning of each thread with content that should go in the first post. Things are likely to be worse when the most important descriptions, like that of the Earth Alliance, will be posted in the future. :shaking: I hope you got what I mean.
So, is it possible to raise the limit? Does it pose any real problem for HLP? Thanks in advance for your answers. :)
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If you have texts that long, consider posting them on a real website.
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People are supposed to comment them, though.
Maybe a thread linking to the website where the descriptions are safely stored would do the job, but there are certain organizational nightmares in the planning phase. My words need to be grammar-checked, revised, and pics occasionally need to be added. Considering my capabilities at handling websites (which are nonexistent), all of this is going to represent a serious problem for me. :(
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What about moddb? What kind of length limit do they have on features posted there?
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I was considering ModDB as well, but what I need ATM is a good and handy store for WIP descriptions. The private board was working fine until I came across to the problem; there are indeed several solutions, but they're a bit unpractical and are still nothing compared to private boards.
So... if it can't be done for public posts, are there any chances to make it possible in private boards, only?
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Honestly, I don't see the problem with splitting it up into 3-4 posts. In fact, with something that long, it might make it easier to read as people can read one post, take a break, and pick up from the next without having to spend five minutes skimming through the whole thing to find out how far they got.
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Descriptions are divided into multiple parts, so it's very hard to get lost in the process. While double, triple or even quadruple posting is possible when the thread is made public, it's not that handy in development.
Obviously, that would be solved by raising the limit. Why is it so low? Anyone willing to post a long fan fiction (just to mention an example) can't do that with a single post. What are the reasons behind such a low limit? Perhaps an admin knows that. :)
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50.000 characters is a lot. It's roughly equivalent to 8 to 9000 words of english fiction, which is near the upper limit for amateur short fiction (or rather, the upper limit for short fiction commonly accepted by magazines and the like).
I submit to you that, by planning your fiction accordingly, you can get a whole lot of information in 50k characters, and that stories of that length are usually near the upper limit of what people can read comfortably on a PC screen.
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Let me just want to point out here that 50.000 characters per post is not 'low'. It's simply that you're trying to use the forum for a purpose it was never designed to be used for. And fanfiction can easily be posted over multiple posts if people want to write something that long.
And seriously, why is it such a problem to use multiple posts? The only difference is that you get a gap equal to (post 1 signature + post 2 headline) and then it picks right up where it left off. I can't see why that should be a problem, in development or otherwise, and in development you'd even have the choice of using pastebin (which would give you a one-million character limit).
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50,000 characters (including spaces) is about the length of a 9,000 word short story or 43 manuscript pages, which is pushing the limits of what any professional market will take on spec.
My advice would be to make your work shorter. Anything that long is going to drive your reader to tears with boredom.
Failing that, split it up into chapters, each of which gets its own post.
Longer is not better; it usually means you're being too wordy. In writing you want to say as much as you can with as few words as possible.
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The reference to fan fictions was a mere example, what I'm working on is a series of descriptions that include biographies, small fictions and such. Even if I split them, they still risk to break the 50.000 characters limit and make things harder to read. Imagine a description split into 8 or so parts, and community members being forced to cycle threads to read it all. :sigh:
And Battuta, I've already made it shorter: each biography has a small fiction related to it, and I've intentionally kept all of these below a certain limit because they're not meant to be fictions per se, but rather some way to integrate actual biographies. More in general, I do not tend to write the unnecessary.
If the limit can be raised, the problem would be solved istantaneously. It's just for the development part, really, because it's possible to use ModDB for public posting. :nod:
Uhm... is pastebin handy when it comes to storing texts for long periods of time? The name doesn't seem convincing, as I'm afraid the text can be deleted at any moment and therefore seems a bit unsafe to store vital info. :(
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You can set the expiration time of a pastebin post, from 10 minutes to never. Also, when did we go from multiple posts to multiple threads? Noone mentioned multiple threads before.
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Imagine a description split into 8 or so parts, and community members being forced to cycle threads to read it all. :sigh:
We did exactly that in Blue Planet. The thread simply linked to a web site where you could select each part from a menu.
And Battuta, I've already made it shorter: each biography has a small fiction related to it, and I've intentionally kept all of these below a certain limit because they're not meant to be fictions per se, but rather some way to integrate actual biographies. More in general, I do not tend to write the unnecessary.
Just FYI, 'fiction' isn't the right word to use here (because it doesn't really mean anything in this context) - 'dossier' or 'vignette' might be more appropriate.
Uhm... is pastebin handy when it comes to storing texts for long periods of time? The name doesn't seem convincing, as I'm afraid the text can be deleted at any moment and therefore seems a bit unsafe to store vital info. :([/color]
I wouldn't trust pastebin over the long term, no.
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I wouldn't trust pastebin over the long term, no.
Not for the final version, no. But it's great for development work.
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I wouldn't trust pastebin over the long term, no.
Not for the final version, no. But it's great for development work.
Righto then, use pastebin. Just keep a backup in case.
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Yeah, that's definitely good advice :)
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But it's still far from being safe, because sudden periods of inactivity can lead to serious data lost.
You can set the expiration time of a pastebin post, from 10 minutes to never. Also, when did we go from multiple posts to multiple threads? Noone mentioned multiple threads before.
They may become necessary in private boards, though.
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Personally, I'd rather use svn (or some other version control scheme), or a shared FTP than forum posts, which have the drawback that the author or someone with moderator powers has to make all the changes.
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I have yet to encounter a descriptive problem I was unable to solve withing three pages. What exactly are you doing?
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I'm describing the new Inferno continuity. As you all know the old continuity had colossal gaps in terms of plot, but things have changed radically and we now have a lot of stuff to describe. I'm even adding some real referneces to ground warfare, which are turning out to be interesting.
Storing text files is safe, but not handy. I can ensure that there's nothing better than having descriptions in private boards, where they can be read and monitored easily.
Aren't we derailing a bit, though? If it isn't possible to raise the limit, I can rely on multiple parts during the development phase and then ask the ASW team to help me out adding all the stuff to INF's website once it's complete... assuming that websites don't have comparable limits. :nervous:
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No, Mobius, this is not derailing.
You see, in the end, it's like this. 50k characters is enough. As has been pointed out, that's equivalent to about 9000 words, or nearly 40 pages of printed fiction. Now, I can't fault you for having the creativity and perseverance necessary to write that much, but at some point you have to ask yourself if you really need that much, or if your intended audience can actually take that much.
For reference, the entire Blue Planet ref bible, which is our repository containing the entire backstory of BP, dossiers of most of the major players in the BP universe and other stuff, is currently at a little bit under 50k characters, and even that is too long to be considered postable.
Now, regarding storage, several things have been pointed out already that could work for you even better than forum posts, like files on a shared FTP server, or files stored in a version control repository. If you need help setting up the latter, I can help you out. Since you are looking to distribute these bits of story so that your team members can look them over and submit corrections, a version controlled storage site, like Launchpad, github, or Google Code would be best for you.
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Well, someone ended up saying that I should shrink what I wrote and that seemed a bit OT to me. Glad BP is under the 50k limit, but with the flood of ideas we've having, breaking this limit is necessary. We have many factions (almost one per Sol planet) and other stuff to describe in INFASA, such as certain technologies and situations, so staying below that limit is virtually impossible at the moment... not to mention the work that will be done on important INF SCP stuff like the EA, GTVA after Capella, the Melia Gate, etc. etc. We have many things to describe, much more than BP currently has, so I wouldn't be surprised of that.
It may be too much but someone may still find it a good reading or, at least, reckognize that INF's gaps in terms of storytelling are part of the past.
In any case, the problem has been solved: I now can add the descriptions and fictions to INF's website, and will rely on that for publication while the private board will be used as usual for development purposes. :)
Now, the initial question is more a curiosity: any particular reason why the limit has been kept to 50.000 characters? Do SMF limits have anything to do with it?
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Well, someone ended up saying that I should shrink what I wrote and that seemed a bit OT to me. Glad BP is under the 50k limit, but with the flood of ideas we've having, breaking this limit is necessary.
this makes no sense
We have many things to describe, much more than BP currently has, so I wouldn't be surprised of that.
wrong
It may be too much but someone may still find it a good reading or, at least, reckognize that INF's gaps in terms of storytelling are part of the past.
if the documents you sent me to edit are any indication...maybe, but you're not there yet
You need to learn to say more with less. When you sent me your story material I took one skim through it, nearly fell asleep a quarter of the way in, and rapidly decided that editing it was a waste of my time and effort.
You want to make sure your readers don't make the same decision about actually reading it.
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I meant more than what you made public until now, as I don't know what else you're doing at the moment. Oh, and that doc is currently undergoing serious upgrades.
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I meant more than what you made public until now, as I don't know what else you're doing at the moment.
Again: length is not what is important. Blue Planet currently has about 80,000 characters/15,000 words of public fiction., which is about 60 manuscript pages. Which is arguably too much. I would have liked to use even less.
Oh, and that doc is currently undergoing serious upgrades.[/color]
That's good to hear. Starwolf seemed like a pretty decent writer from what I saw. I myself have a tendency to go long, and people usually have to remind me to keep length under control. I can easily do 10,000 words a day, which is bad bad bad.
Look, Mobius, think of it this way. You're a painter. A painter does not make a painting by using as much paint as possible. He uses the right paint in the right places.
Length restrictions will make your writing better. Most professional markets will not accept short fiction over 10,000 words and 5,000 is ideal. More importantly, readers won't read.
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/OT
?
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While this may be offtopic regarding the question of whether or not the length limit of posts should be raised, it is my firm belief that when a customer asks "Why can't I do x?", it is usually best to respond with the question "Why do you think you want to do x?" Because most times, the ensuing discussion will help to better define the customer's requirements.
In this case, your requirement is not "I need more space for my fiction." You want to make your fiction better, and all we're saying is that a) there are better ways of getting that done than forum posts and b) your belief that you need to use that much space is quite possibly mistaken, as most people will not be willing to spend that much time reading up on backstory that they may not need.
In addition, what you said earlier, about how those humongous pieces of writing are detailing every faction your mod is using? That suggests to me that there ARE natural points that can be used to break up your fiction. It suggests to me that your 200.000 characters requirement comes more from a misunderstanding of the process called collaborative writing, than any actual need.
There's another thing to consider. If or when it becomes time for you to compile your version of species.tbl, you will have to boil all that information, or a good part of it, down into pieces no longer than 4096 characters. Starting that reduction process sooner, rather than later, is recommended.
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moved to pm
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No, character limit is not going to be raised for posts. Use Inferno website to post final stuff, for development stuff you can use something else like Google Docs.
Everything that needs to be said has been said, I'm closing this topic.