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Gimme yo votes! I gave you 13, please don't screw it up by voting for two contradictory options. :(
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I had to look up which one M11 was. It's the one with the Vasudan Logistics ship, FYI.
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Fixed.
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/me has voted.
Admiral Steele is a magnificent bastard. He has great balls.
By the way, I was initially shocked by the assassination, but at the same time, I thought it was a good move.
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@Androgeos Exeunt: yeah, it worked. But he's still bringing the Vasudans into the war unnecessarily.
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@Androgeos Exeunt: yeah, it worked. But he's still bringing the Vasudans into the war unnecessarily.
Well, it still is the GTVA. Terran-Vasudan. If the Terrans fight a war, Vasudans should help. One way or another. Besides, Steele's a smart man. He won't risk Vasudans taking sides any other that his.
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I identify with the Federation
My lifestyle and principles actually is somewhat alike Mandela's Ubuntu philosophy. I didn't always agree with the Martian attitude though, but I were quite happy to see they still wanted to offer the Carthage another chance for surrender.
I never/could not figure out how to use a checkpoint
I never figured this out. I didn't die much I think and if I did it must have been before a checkpoint.
I threatened the hostage in M05
I decided I wouldn't kill the hostage anyway, or that I would restart if I had to do so, but I worried that calling a bluff would result in it blowing up. Gut feeling, but might be wrong.
I thought Darkest Hour was just right
Felt right to me, as long as I keep checking my friendly target's attackers. Assuming this is the one with the rooks, it is a nice challenge to keep them alive.
I killed Xinny and Zero
I did not think there was an alternative programmed. Is there? I assumed they were an objective, or that I otherwise died. Felt sorry to close that canonical chapter.
I found the Simms conversation easy
After paying attention to the briefing I got it right it seems.
I found the Nyx dogfight too hard
They seemed to be buffed, or my weapons layout wasn't comfortable.
I didn't understand the pointbuy system in Aristeia
First I ordered a strike and expected missiles or so. It seems they sent fighters or gunships out. Where did they come from? Were they in the cargo bays of a ship or did my Tev communicator talk to friendly forces by tapping in a Tev ship? Or was the Tev communicator not jammed as it is Tev technology?
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was a terrible accident
I saw it as misunderstandings piling up. I really hoped for a good ending. Unfortunate.
I felt good in One Perfect Moment
Assuming it was the Lunar mission, I was happy to see the bond between Simms and Laporte was confirmed to be both ways, or so it hinted.
I thought the assassination was a good move
I felt sorry, but expected that a lone shuttle pod wouldn't survive. It makes sense why the Tev's let a few GTF Pegasus fighters fall into Federation hands.
I really loved the soundtrack at the end of Pawns
I liked a lot of the epic soundtracks, I'm sure I really loved this one, even though I can't remember straight away. :P
I thought Delenda Est was just right
It was doable if I check my target's attacker, but I'd like some more breathing space between waves!
Admiral Steele
A desperate man who takes desperate measures. I don't think he's the type of guy to change and he'll probably die, but I won't wish him dead.
Correct me if I got some missions wrong, please!
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Someone added love/hate Steele options :confused: I can't change my vote! :hopping:
/me wants Steele dead
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It's set to allow vote changes, but you still only get 13 votes total and I can't figure out how to change that.
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Really, you have to let us choose both "I love Steele" and "I want to kill Steele". Can't I love him as an admirable opponent whom I still want to strangle to death with my own hands?
EDIT:
Also, maybe I'm the only one here who thinks so, but overall - i the long run I can't say I think the assassination was a good thing. It might just win the war against the UEF for the GTVA - but if the truth ever came out, it will probably compromise the Alliance between Vasudans and the GTA. From my understanding they would be outraged at being deceived like that.
So, yes, I think Steele might have risked a bit much there.
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I still can't change my vote.
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Accidents.
HAVE YOU LISTEND TO A WORD I HAVE SAID? THERE IS ALWAYS SOMETHING GOING ON!
the missions where fine, just stay away from the cross-fire, and NEVER aproch ANY ship directly, they WILL gun you the hell down, just like on insane with the old AI. Its better to strafe them. unless of course you open fire with LR weapons and dodge at the last moment leaving them with a missile to the face after your guns have taking out their shields and part of there armor. (i recommend the Rapier (duh))
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I identify with the Federation : They are the one that understood that a civil war amongst humans won't help us fight Shivans. Especially since Shivans can't be defeated with warships. It's pretty obvious that becoming the new Creators of the Preserver-Destroyer-Creator triumvirat is the only chance of survival for the Terrans and Vasudans, and the spiritual and peaceful approach of the Ubuntu is much more likely to succeed at this than the GTVA war-loving approach.
I called the bluff in M05 : Not sure it would work, but I considered that terrorists wouldn't be deterred by one of their pilots taken hostage.
I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia : Very clever system. To answer to -Sara-, it's because the fighter was using a Tev communication system that it wasn't jammed, and that it was able to call for reinforcements from the UED Toutatis.
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was a terrible accident : the UEFg Hesperia could have hold its fire when it realized there was nobody firing at each other on site. Especially given that the UEFg Indus could perfectly have taken the GTCv Arethusa out on its own long before its arrival if it was necessary.
I was shocked and appalled by the assassination : but not really surprised coming from the SOC. They want to eliminate the Ubuntu threat whatever the cost, and whatever the means, even if they must leave what makes us human and worth being saved by the Vishnans someday.
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I Identify with the GTVA
I Identify with the Federation
I refuse to call that a contradiction.
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It's set to allow vote changes, but you still only get 13 votes total and I can't figure out how to change that.
It wasn't set to allow vote changes. When you create or edit the poll, there's an option to set how many votes are allowed. I've set it to 50.
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I managed to get the Simms conversation right(?) the first time (at least it somehow worked out well), but it was more like guesses somehow guided by what I read in the briefing. So although I voted "easy", I didn't really think it was easy. ;)
I got the pointbuy system right, but actually thought at first that I would call in TEV reinforcements, like calling in a SSM strike before they can realize they would shoot their own ship. But I wondered why Simms had the codes for a TEV comm system at all, and when I saw the array of options I figured out how it was meant.
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/me has re-voted.
By the way, love hurts, so if you love and want to kill Steele, perfectly understandable.
One Perfect Moment somehow made me feel both good and bored at the same time.
I don't find myself aligning with either side, though. I'm still an observer on this one.
Amazingly, nobody (at this point of typing) thinks DH is too hard. Maybe QuantumDelta would.
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DH was one of the few missions were I actually died... learned my lesson then about merrily doing the happy banzai dive on a capship in a fragile fighter without being ordered to do so. :D
Quite funny that by now without any thinking the typical reaction to an arriving enemy capship is to immediately afterburn in its direction and try to take out beam cannons. Only when my cockpit lit up with flak and beam fire and my hull dropped rapidly did I realize this time it was not a good idea, but it was too late...
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/me looks at the votes.
Okay, who decided to let Xinny and Zero shoot them down? :wtf:
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/me looks at the votes.
Okay, who decided to let Xinny and Zero shoot them down? :wtf:
Me. I mean, how could I shoot down people who flew with me into the lion's den 18 years ago and who only tried to rescue my good old squadron leader, Captain Al'fadil (sp?). Come on. Besides, you can still go on with the campaign even if you get shot down.
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I identify with the Alliance
I've played FS2, seen the horrors of the Second Shivan Incursion. There are necessary sacrifices for the good of your species, especially in the face of an enemy who's motives are unknown, but who's methods involve ****ing killing you all. If the Federation really understood that not fighting each other is how to survive, then they should have just surrendered.
I used a checkpoint at least once in the campaign
Delenda Est. See below.
I called the bluff in M05
By the time the option came up I already killed half the Gefs. By myself. \o/
I thought Darkest Hour was just right
Alpha wing got smashed to bits, but I got out with all the rookies and the Vatican. Pretty straightforward bomber intercept, just don't bother bumrushing caphsips.
I killed Xinny and Zero
I absolutely hated having done it, but I didn't think the campaign would let me continue if I didn't. :(
I should have experimented...
I found the Simms conversation frustrating
I am not good with people.
I thought the Nyx dogfight was okay
But I'm pretty good at dodging Tornadoes. Countermeasures used in the dogfight: 0
I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia
I just randomly called in reinforcements and then understood what was going on.
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was an act of treachery
Right, let's shoot at a corvette that's powered down, weapons cold, without assessing the situation! Did they even consider the fact that maybe the Indus is capturing it or something?
I felt good in One Perfect Moment
Girl on Girl action is Hot.
I thought the assassination was a good move
I did it myself the first time, and broke the mission.
I loved the soundtrack at the end of Pawns
I think. I'm not sure I heard it. CURSE YOU SOUND GLITCH! CURSE YOU!
I thought Delenda Est was too hard
I used the checkpoint system so many times to try different loadouts at disarming those corvettes.
Ended up cheating and still failed.
Ended up cheating even more.
I love Admiral Steele
Maginificent bastard!
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Right, let's shoot at a corvette that's powered down, weapons cold, without assessing the situation! Did they even consider the fact that maybe the Indus is capturing it or something?
It might seem dumb but from the Hesperia's perspective there's a lot of ways it makes sense. Hindsight bias is easy to succumb to.
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I identify with the Alliance
Just like Droid said, I've been through the 2nd Shivan Incursion. Seeing a ship that took us 20 years to complete and which was supposed to be invincible wtfpwned by a single Shivan vessel in a matter of minutes, and then witnessing the Shivans supernoving Capella, I can say that the Feds have NO idea what they're up against. Is Admiral Byrne going to play a defensive war against the Shivans, keeping all of his assets in one place waiting for them to be annihilated by some stray juggernaut ? Give me a brake.
Though I must admit that this campaign made me symphatise with the Feds on an emotional level, my rational part is still a GTVA supporter.
I used a checkpoint at least once in the campaign
... and failed miserably, because it didn't work as it was supposed to. Still, a nice idea.
I called the bluff in M05
Probably the best option - it didn't fit Laporte to charge the enemy or take other people as hostages, at least not at this point in the campaign.
I thought Darkest Hour was just right
Managed to complete it on my first run. Lost all rookies, the Vatican and Alpha got hit hard as well, but thanks to this it really felt epic. The station was holding at maybe 4% when the mission ended. Now that is what I call fighting for survival.
I let Xinny and Zero shoot me down
Just like I said before, I couldn't kill my former comrades. Not to mention, that it wouldn't make much sense for a rook like Laporte to kill SOC operatives.
I found the Simms conversation easy
I wasn't exactly sure whether I was doing the right thing, but I trusted the briefing and everything went quite well on my first run, even though I did yell at Simms in the end. Anybody can tell me what's the best outcome here ?
I found the Nyx dogfight too hard
Dammit, those fighters pack helluva punch, all I could do was dodge them until they got shot down. Really nasty. At least the Erinyes are sluggish enough to be outmaneuvered.
I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia
Wasn't very hard to understand, but I'm not sure how useful this was. It's hard to make a reasonable decision when the situation around you is rather chaotic. In the end, I ordered some bombers and Uhlans, and managed to win this one. Loved how you could input the code yourself, though.
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was an act of treachery
Oh come on, so NOW they decide to go with the 'shoot first, ask questions later' method ? 18 months too late, UEF. Even if you are biased, charging in with your guns hot when you don't know the situation is hardly commendable. That captain should get yelled at by some Admiral or two for what he has done.
I felt good in One Perfect Moment
Character development in a space sim ? During a mission ? Are we in a Japanese game already ? Normally, I'm not too fond of such missions, but since it's a story-driven campaign, I didn't really complain. Plus, it was nice to be able to read all this chatter without having to resort to F4. Besides, the girls deserved some rest and proper talk :)
I was shocked and appalled by the assassination
I knew something like this would happen, but I never saw those 3-4 Pegasus fighters coming ! I wasn't even given a chance to respond. Plus, I was curious what the Elder wanted to say. Ehhh, what the hell happened with the old GTVA ? I understand that 18 years of economic troubles and being stomped by Shivans could somehow affect them, but I know that the GTVA is/was better than such assassinations and deceptions ! Lying to the Vasudans is gonna bite the Terrans in their arses soon enough.
I thought Delenda Est was just right
Well, I did play it on Very Easy (mainly because I forgot to turn on Medium after the previous mission :P), and I finished it on my first run with Indus in not such a bad shape and my hull at 94% with ease. Gonna try it on higher difficulties later on, should be much more intense and epic.
I love Admiral Steele
Even though I don't like how he's lying to his allies (but I can understand somehow why he is doing so), I like his strategies far more. He wants to end this war quickly, and isn't afraid of risk or aggressive tactics to do so. That's the spirit ! Show those Feds how wars look like !
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/me looks at the votes.
Okay, who decided to let Xinny and Zero shoot them down? :wtf:
Me. I mean, how could I shoot down people who flew with me into the lion's den 18 years ago and who only tried to rescue my good old squadron leader, Captain Al'fadil (sp?). Come on. Besides, you can still go on with the campaign even if you get shot down.
Who are Xinny and Zero?
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/me looks at the votes.
Okay, who decided to let Xinny and Zero shoot them down? :wtf:
Me. I mean, how could I shoot down people who flew with me into the lion's den 18 years ago and who only tried to rescue my good old squadron leader, Captain Al'fadil (sp?). Come on. Besides, you can still go on with the campaign even if you get shot down.
Who are Xinny and Zero?
They, along with Snipes, were your wingmen in Into The Lion's Den in retail campaign.
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Yeah, I shot em down too. I knew they were my old buddies, and actually somewhat competent ones at that, but they shot at me. I shot back :beamz:
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I identify with the Alliance
First priority has to be surviving the Shivans. I actually think that Ubuntu is the GTVA's best bet for saving the economy and fielding bigger badder warships. Meh, if Command wanted my opinion they'd promote me to admiral.
I used a checkpoint at least once in the campaign
Or... 20 times? More?
I threatened the hostage in M05
It seemed like it would be the most interesting option. I was totally bluffing though.
I thought Darkest Hour was too hard
This was the mission that made me knock the difficulty down to "Easy" where it stayed for the rest of the campaign.
I killed Xinny and Zero
By the time I noticed their callsigns it was too late anyway. I'd probably have let them shoot me otherwise though. Oh well.
I found the Simms conversation easy
I don't think the briefing tips helped much. I just took the flirtatious approach and said what seemed to be most reasonable.
I thought the Nyx dogfight was okay
I think this was the mission where my rebound keys wouldn't work, but other than that it wasn't too bad.
I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia
... once I took the time to read what was going on. After that the HUD messages and reinforcement options were self-explanatory.
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was a terrible accident
I don't believe that the UEF would deliberately destroy a chance not to lose the war, or that the GTVA could have convinced them that the corvette was a threat.
I felt good in One Perfect Moment
While playing it, I wished it would last much much longer.
I was shocked and appalled by the assassination
I bought into the idea that the UEF might have a chance at securing Vasudan support. It felt so close! I was genuinely angry... so I lingered behind and killed all the Gefs. :)
I thought the assassination was a good move
It seems to have worked beautifully anyway.
I (really) loved the soundtrack at the end of Pawns
I remember finding an excuse to pause the game and let that track play. All the music was great. I don't remember what mission, but the tw* tracks seem to be cut wrong still.
I thought Delenda Est was too hard
The second pair of corvettes. I really, really wish there were hotkeys for turrets. Just finding one takes me about 10 seconds. :(
I want to kill Admiral Steele
The only thing more irritating than his tactics is that they work.
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Why are we spoiler marking? Oh well...
I identify with both UEF and GTVA
I didn't let Xinny and Zero shoot me down, I just got wtfpwned.
I d'awwwed on One Perfect Moment.
I both love and want to kill Admiral Steele.
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Booooowaaaah.
:(
Fed lovers :no:
But more people love Steele than hate him :yes:
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I love Admiral Steele
I want to kill Admiral Steele
Yeah right, a great strategist, at the same time too dangerous to be left alive if he is not on your side. Just think about Erwin Rommel or Napoleon(if you are a British).
I thought the Nyx dogfight was okay , I hate the Perseus more really
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i had no idea who xinny and zero were until i read this thread. even if i had, i probably wouldn't have noticed who they were during the fight, because text is a fking ***** to read
i understood what the points system was about when the '0 of 6 points used' displayed, but it took me a bit to figure out to use the reinforcements menu. the last time we had interactive stuff it was directly from those training message boxes.
i didn't answer a lot of them, because i never pay attention to the names of the missions :/
you should add "scanned all the cargo containers"
and "..... in the proper order"
"wrote it down and deciphered"
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One Perfect Moment made me... So... Happy... :(
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Voted.
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I identify with the Alliance
The only way to stand against the Shivans is to unite under a banner of constant defence and vigilance. The UEF have little experience fighting the Shivans while the GTVA has even got a wing into Shivan territory.
I used a checkpoint at least once in the campaign
I didn't use it more than three times but it saves times, and seeing stuff explode on cue is nice.
I called the bluff in M05.
I didn't feel like any of the other options were right for the character.
I thought Darkest Hour was just right.
It took practice, but I beat it on Medium.
I killed Xinny and Zero
I only killed one of them, but I shot at them both.
I found the Simms conversation easy
Other than me not realizing that I could just do the conversation once and Alt-J at the beginning to skip instead of wasting the time.
I thought the Nyx dogfight was okay
Again took practice but I did something.
I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia
I heard someone post somewhere about a pointbuy system so when I saw it in the campaign I knew what to do. The techroom provided the technical knowledge to know which choices were the right choices the first time I got to that part of the mission.
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was a terrible accident
Flying in the mission we see that there was no threat to us, but an outsider jumping in can't wait to pull the trigger when lives are on the line.
I felt good in One Perfect Moment
I took the time to shoot up Luna City. It felt small proportionally. I liked it.
I was shocked and appalled by the assassination
When Laporte says "OMG Assassination" The only thing that has happened is ONE fighter wing and a bomb disabling the ENGINES of the ship and, in my run of the mission, left Hull Integrity at 83% or so. Perfect capturing material but Laporte leaps to muderous intent.
I thought the assassination was a good move
The transfer happened in between two ships which could have docked or at least been much closer. Must be amateur hour at the UEF. I would have preferred a capture attempt, but it would have been too risky. I mean come on, they were just ASKING for the shuttle to be shot down.
I (really) loved the soundtrack at the end of Pawns
What can I say.
I thought Delenda Est was just right
Easily my favorite mission of the campaign. However I thought it had a few logical flaws. The Indus never really threatened the Orion, it just hovered over it. I flew to the Orion and started attacking it with my poor loadout before I was ordered back to the Indus. Victory was near and it felt like we were waiting for a reason to leave.
I love Admiral Steele
His tactics embody the Terran side of the GTVA. I loved the meta-game trap he laid for the Ambassador and the Indus.
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"Too hard" - Bloody annoying? :P
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If the Federation really understood that not fighting each other is how to survive, then they should have just surrendered.
Yeah, of course. And throw away the only way of life that give a chance of survival to the Terran and Vasudan species. The GTVA wouldn't accept a surrender without destroying completely the Ubuntu ideology, because that's why they started the war in the first place : to prevent that ideology to spread.
Seeing a ship that took us 20 years to complete and which was supposed to be invincible wtfpwned by a single Shivan vessel in a matter of minutes, and then witnessing the Shivans supernoving Capella, I can say that the Feds have NO idea what they're up against.
Yes, the GTVA know better the extent of the Shivan threat than the Feds. Hence they should know better that even a fleet of Raynors doesn't stand a bloody chance against them, but they keep the illusion than a military solution is viable.
The only way to stand against the Shivans is to unite under a banner of constant defence and vigilance.
This one made me laugh a lot. Nuf said.
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26 people are a bunch of c*nts. :D
Come on guys, you've got to admit he[Steele] was at least a decent tactician for the move in DE. (Even if that move had been played about a hundred times in the early 1000s by a cool Asian Dude... Props to anyone who knows who I'm talking about).
Sc4ry_zomb13:
"When Laporte says "OMG Assassination" The only thing that has happened is ONE fighter wing and a bomb disabling the ENGINES of the ship and, in my run of the mission, left Hull Integrity at 83% or so. Perfect capturing material but Laporte leaps to muderous intent."
Laporte at this stage of the war hasn't grasped the one of the fundamental points of raw, human, warfare. It is not fair. There are no morals.
To some people, there is a line. What is, and isn't morally right.
To others, there is no line, only an end justified by the means.
I am a man who believes in both being applicable in certain circumstances.
As a pilot, it is nearly irrelevant to you whether your opponents respect that line. Because you assume that they don't know there is one. They are professionals, who will seize and capitalize any opportunity they come across to secure victory for their side, and to bring the man or woman next to them home alive.
As a pilot, you sign yourself over to your training. Always check your three-nine line. Always look out for your friends. Where are they going to attack from? What am I going to do if we're flanked?
That, is relevant to you. Those are questions you should have answers ready for, because chances are that you're going to have to apply it. Because that is one of the best defences you can have. Being prepared.
When they assassinate a respected leadership figure in the population, do you think the other side are a bunch of dogs? Absolutely.
But can you see why they did it? Of course. This is war.
Yes, the GTVA know better the extent of the Shivan threat than the Feds. Hence they should know better that even a fleet of Raynors doesn't stand a bloody chance against them, but they keep the illusion than a military solution is viable.
It's not that it's viable, it's the only solution they've got against a species that hasn't really been over for tea very much and as a result, don't have such a great reputation for talking amongst the Alliance.
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Here goes:
I identify with the Federation
I think their approach is the only sensible way to save mankind. And even then it is still a long shot. The second Shivan incursion has showed to me, that military power can never overcome the Shivans, so for all it's worth we need to grasp for straws. If these straws are Elders communicating with powers beyond our understanding and a solid, guided economy that researches Shivans and the newly encountered Vishnans maybe uncovering their motives and ways to overcome their threat - that is much more sensible to me than concentrating on piling up military might.
Overall I guess the best thing would be to integrate the GTA into the UEF, yeah, that's right, I think they should be just the military arm of the federation in order to resist a third Shivan incursion long enough for the researchers to maybe find a real solution. They should not be the dominating part of mankind's government and administration.
I used a checkpoint at least once in the campaign
On Delenda Est alone I used it more often than I could count. My hat goes off to all that actually finished it with less than 10 tries, you are Gods among men, "Wargods" to be precise - know what I mean *nudge *nudge wink wink.
I threatened the hostage in M05
In a split second decision I thought that was the only way to have some actual way of forcing the gefs to listen. Also I didn't have much moral resentments, I didn't really kill the hostage, and I truly dislike both the Gaian Efforts ideals and methods.
I thought Darkest Hour was just right
It took me two tries, which is quite normal. The campaign overall is challenging, but in a satisfying way, as is this mission.
I killed Xinny and Zero
They were shooting at me, and at this moment, I wasn't the pilot that flew with them, I was a UEF Pilot with a grudge against the GT(V)A
I found the Simms conversation easy
The Briefing gave me all the information I had to know. Maybe I should revisit and try to fail on purpose, I wonder what will happen.
I thought the Nyx dogfight was okay
I died on the first try because it somewhat took me by surprise, but on the second try it was challenging yet doable - how a mission should be IMO.
I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia
I thought the interface was very intuitive and easy to understand. I lost more time on thinking what package to order instead of figuring out how the thing worked.
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was a terrible accident
For all they knew after a split second the GTA might have been engaged in a bording operation or setting up a bait. A hasty decision that I would have liked to be resolved another way. But in war - any decision is better than hesitation, so while this specific decision turned out to be wrong, from what they knew they still did the "right" thing.
I felt good in One Perfect Moment
Music: Nice. Dialogue: Nice. AoA had something like this with the mission where you establish formal contact with the remnant fleet. I liked it there as well.
I was shocked and appalled by the assassination
I still think Steele risked a bit too much. I didn't quite get enraged by the assassination (on a personal level, yes, especially when the elder was just telling me something imortant...), but by the way Steele manipulated the Vasudans.
I still think this may backfire on the GTA, with Vasudan-Human relations stressed anyway. If this came out the Alliance is in danger, and this would be a greater risk to survival of both species than an "infection" of the GTA by Ubuntu peacenicks - IMO.
I really loved the soundtrack at the end of Pawns
I really loved the soundtrack. Period.
I thought Delenda Est was too hard
Took me forever, and in the end I won by tuning down difficulty and getting lucky with timing of the JACKKNIFE group warping in, the beam overload and being able to eliminate the last fighter wave in time.
I think it needs tweaking - but perhaps others really don't have that many problems.
I love Admiral Steele and I want to kill him as well
He's a master strategist, he's one of the best military leaders you could wish to have on your side. But he lacks a feeling for politics (as I said, I think with deceiving the Vasudans he risked too much IMO), and he is of course too dangerous to be left alive when he is not on your side.
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It's not that it's viable, it's the only solution they've got against a species that hasn't really been over for tea very much and as a result, don't have such a great reputation for talking amongst the Alliance.
They have the records of the Orestes' 14th Battlegroup. They know of the Vishnans, they know of the Dante and a Shivan armada even larger than that the Shivans threw away in Capella. This should be more than enough to convince them that they don't stand a bloody chance. Of course the Shivans never tried to engage a diplomatic solution (and by the way, neither did the GTVA with the Feds), but the Vishnans did.
I identify with the Federation
I think their approach is the only sensible way to save mankind. And even then it is still a long shot. The second Shivan incursion has showed to me, that military power can never overcome the Shivans, so for all it's worth we need to grasp for straws. If these straws are Elders communicating with powers beyond our understanding and a solid, guided economy that researches Shivans and the newly encountered Vishnans maybe uncovering their motives and ways to overcome their threat - that is much more sensible to me than concentrating on piling up military might.
Overall I guess the best thing would be to integrate the GTA into the UEF, yeah, that's right, I think they should be just the military arm of the federation in order to resist a third Shivan incursion long enough for the researchers to maybe find a real solution. They should not be the dominating part of mankind's government and administration.
Triple thumbs up :yes: :yes: :yes:
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Hmm, that's true.
Agreed also on your point, SomeGuyWithAName, that's a view I held at the beginning of the testing process for WiH (back when it was in alpha stages!)
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Hmm. I feel I need to say some more here. The UEF has beam-jamming technology so they immediately have an edge over the GTVA, Shivan, and Vasudan forces. What the Federation has not done, is get pilots into Shivan territory. Even when provoked inside their own space Shivans only engaged with minimal forces.
The tactics the Shivans have used seems to suggest that they want to engage in minimal direct confrontation. In The Great War, the Shivans sent a Super Destroyer with shields. Without finding Ancient technology it would have been impossible to stop the Lucifer. When I played the Lucifer mission on Medium it was practically self playing. So that is one trick the Shivans won't use again since
A) We know that shields don't work in subspace.
B) We could presumably come up with a technology to disable shields on ships not in subspace.
The destruction of the Lucifer is akin to the backbone of the invasion breaking. So the invasion depended on ONE ship to actually annihilate the GTA and VPN forces.
Some thirty years later what do we see? A Sathanas juggernaut capable of gutting any ship caught in front of it.
It takes a massive commitment on the GTVA's part to destroy the first Sathanas, but they do stop it. So the Shivans have to change tactics again. They engage in massive direct confrontation to clear out the nebular theater. The GTVA forces are forced into retreat back into Gamma Draconis. The Shivans stage a massive breakout into Gamma Draconis. The fleet falls back to Capella. Once in Capella the GTVA sees something like seventeen Sathanas juggernauts. Instead of going after the GTVA fleet in Capella using direct confrontation with massive superior forces, the Sathanas juggernauts surround one of the Capella suns. The Shivans send (if there is such a thing) regular capitol ships to harass the GTVA forces and civilians in Capella.
Perhaps the goal of the first invasion was to soften them up and bring in Sathanas juggernauts to a central system and make it go supernova. Unless someone from V says otherwise I must assume the first plan was a Lucifer bombardment on all planets and a hunt for the last survivors.
The Federation in War in Heaven has done very little direct confrontation with the Tevs. If I remember WiH correctly, the 2nd fleet was forced to go rogue to attack Tev forces. The only way to stop the Shivans from destroying you is direct confrontation, and of course closing the jump nodes to any system which has been lost.
Imagine if you will a Shivan invasion of Sol. What would it entail? A massive Shivan breakout through the node. Since the Shivans have most of the Sathanas juggernauts from the Capella attack and more in the nebula it is a safe bet that they will be brought into Sol. The UEF has beam jamming technology and unlike the GTVA does not rely on beams for heavy damage. The UEF could put up a spectacular defense at the node, but the Shivans would make it through by adaption or sheer commitment. Even a Meson bomb or its equivalent may not be enough to close the node again once opened (think Gamma Draconis). Remember what happened in Blue Planet? The UEF knew about the probes and they did not surround the node with ships. The probes could have been Terran/Vasudan made but Shivan owned and operated. If Shivans had poured through then, Sol would be lost. The only way to stop a Shivan invasion is to hold the node long enough to find a way to close it forever.
So yes, constant vigilance/defence and I suppose most importantly direct confrontation of Shivan or perhaps any hostile ships.
Anyway, from reading the cargo boxes it seems the Shivans have some problems of their own. The Vishnans are also either occupied by the same forces or ignoring the humans because the war needs to end in peace before Humanity can be considered enlightened by the Vishnans or something like that.
"God willing, we will prevail, in peace and freedom from fear, and in true health, through the purity and essence of our natural... fluids. God bless you all."
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Did anyone cry while playing?
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more shocked than sad really
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Did anyone cry while playing?
I almost did at a few times.
When I shot down Xinny and Zero.
When the truce ended.
When the Imperiouse kicked major ass. Those were Manly Tears at the pure awesomeness.
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The worst I felt was
when the Imper-whatever completely obliterated the Wargods. Partly because I was wondering why in the hell would they all go on a suicide run against it, knowing there was not a chance in hell to destroy it or even really slow it down, when they could have instead pressed the attack on the Carthage and take it with them.
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Did anyone cry while playing?
Don't had time for... Except when I retried Delenda Est for the ?? time (mother****ing beams !)
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I didn't cry, but the last "briefing" between Simms and Laporte was very sad.
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I cried at the last briefing.
But I did not think there was much left for Lorna Simms to live for. With Noemi telling her she loved Lorna, it sort of feels as if that is all Lorna needed to hear, letting the radiation sickness overcome her. Then again maybe she does pull through and find some motivation or not to continue.
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I didn't connect at all with the lesbian romance. I didn't get an extra layer of effect from that, even in the aforementioned last breifing
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^
Same with me. But then again, I come from a nation that has a very noticeable contingent of its males not voting for the incumbent prime minister because she's female. :P
Okay, I'm not that sexist, but it's just not something that grabbed me. I did feel a fair bit of emotion just because of the way it was written and I did momentarily feel sorry for the two. But even the way the campaign positioned the audience, it just didn't click with me over the course of the mod. I don't like Simms! Just, as a character she repulses me from ever coming close to her. I don't know what it is, but eh, I digress.
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The whole Simms thing is...well the bottom line is that the campaign never really managed to convince me that I was Laporte, so it failed to convince me on the Simms point by default. Normally FS convinces that you are the main character by simple wish fulfilment, but because we got so in-depth with Laporte it became quickly obvious this wasn't someone I could identify with.
Bei nearly tipped over into the same thing during the middle part of AoA, but I had a solid connection from the first mission sequence from his wearing the mask of wing leader, which is quite clearly the player's role in the grand scheme of things that anchored it.
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It's much like a novel or book, sometimes you can really place yourself in the protagonist and sometimes you just cannot come to terms with how the main character acts or thinks. I personally could find myself in Laporte and found Simms to have quite a charm! Then again someone else may feel that Laporte made moral choices which opposed them or may have trouble with her psychotic personality, or may find Simms to be not much more than a butch dyke. :P
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It's definitely a risk we took in terms of narrative. We were aware that we couldn't please everyone, and thus didn't try to.
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I agree with NGTM-1R.
"Normally FS convinces that you are the main character by simple wish fulfilment, but because we got so in-depth with Laporte it became quickly obvious this wasn't someone I could identify with."
Yeah, that's my thoughts on the subject put quite succinctly. Obviously the vast majority could identify with her though, which is good to hear. :)
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What about Kassim? :(
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It's definitely a risk we took in terms of narrative. We were aware that we couldn't please everyone, and thus didn't try to.
Well, if you had been trying to write a novel, Laporte would have been a great character that I would have greatly enjoyed.
...but you got the wrong medium. :P
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Well, not the wrong medium, but perhaps the wrong media, since many, many games don't try to convince the player they're the main character, and are simply telling a story that the player progresses through, watching the characters evolve, that's rarely FPS/Sims though!
That being said, I didn't mind it
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What about Kassim? :(
What about him?
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I really felt like I was Laporte, but maybe that's just me. :nervous: I have to say though, her "Alpha 1" moments helped ("I'm almost enjoying myself..."; "I can. Try to keep up!").
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Mmm, well, I just have in some ways a radically different personality to Laporte's, to which no amount of character-development or immersion could've helped. I don't badmouth the campaign over it, however, but I just wasn't able to perhaps truly empathise with the main and 'feel' her as well as the vast majority were.
I could understand her well enough, see where it was all coming from, but playing as her? I just couldn't do that very effectively for too long. Not a fault of the campaign, of course.
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I can't say I would have picked up Simms for a relationship of my own either, but the campaign makes it pretty clear how Laporte feels for her, and that is what makes the last briefing so sad for me. Not what happens to Simms, but how Laporte experiances it and feels about it.
A soldier who almost gave up on living suffering from severe radiation poisoning is sad but not exactly heartwrenching. A woman we came to know quite well dying (or at least getting very close to) in the arms of a person who loves her deeply is quite another matter. On top of that everything they worked, sweat and bled for was taken away from them in a matter of minutes. And with the falling out with her uncle and the wargods being almost completely wiped out, Simms is pretty much the only one Laporte has left... or more likely had left. :(
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First two lines of yours there explain what I tried to say a little earlier about it in more depth. Amen to the rest of what you said too.
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I guess it makes me evil that I killed the hostage :-/
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And with the falling out with her uncle and the wargods being almost completely wiped out, Simms is pretty much the only one Laporte has left... or more likely had left. :(
Wait, Laporte fell out with Brie? Was there a fiction viewer update I missed or something?
What about Kassim? :(
What about him?
Despite very limited screen time, he was one of my favorite characters.
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I guess it makes me evil that I killed the hostage :-/
But she used to bring them cheries.. :(
Glad I let her live. :)
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I also had trouble picturing myself as a lesbian, so every time I somebody said "Laporte" in my mind I would replace it with my name :nod: ... also I would replace orders to stay away from cap ships with orders to take out beams so my cap ships could last longer :D I finished a lot of missions with my fighter below 5%. Doing this in 'Post Merdian' I was able to keep the miss jumped ship alive :arrr:
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Hm, somehow the lesbian relationship reminded me of the ancient greek ideal of gay lovers being better warriors because they would care and fight for each other on the battlefield, of course that ideal had its roots in a time when wars were mostly hand-to-hand combat between rather small groups of nobles.
I thought it was overall fitting, and it didn't feel like it was just there to get some girl on girl action or forced like a "oh we are so progressive, lesbian love"-thing. The way they grew to love each other was believable against the backdrop of the war, or at least I think so.
But if you can't really get yourself to like it, I think this idea
I also had trouble picturing myself as a lesbian, so every time I somebody said "Laporte" in my mind I would replace it with my name :nod:
makes for an interesting alternative to the player.
(I just assume we don't have to use spoiler tags for everything in this thread, it is getting silly, so see this as a combo breaker)
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I also had trouble picturing myself as a lesbian, so every time I somebody said "Laporte" in my mind I would replace it with my name :nod: ... also I would replace orders to stay away from cap ships with orders to take out beams so my cap ships could last longer :D I finished a lot of missions with my fighter below 5%. Doing this in 'Post Merdian' I was able to keep the miss jumped ship alive :arrr:
Awesome. We really wanted to add a bonus objective for saving the Vilnius, but it was something we didn't have time for before release.
Hm, somehow the lesbian relationship reminded me of the ancient greek ideal of gay lovers being better warriors because they would care and fight for each other on the battlefield, of course that ideal had its roots in a time when wars were mostly hand-to-hand combat between rather small groups of nobles.
I thought it was overall fitting, and it didn't feel like it was just there to get some girl on girl action or forced like a "oh we are so progressive, lesbian love"-thing. The way they grew to love each other was believable against the backdrop of the war, or at least I think so.
But if you can't really get yourself to like it, I think this idea
I also had trouble picturing myself as a lesbian, so every time I somebody said "Laporte" in my mind I would replace it with my name :nod:
makes for an interesting alternative to the player.
(I just assume we don't have to use spoiler tags for everything in this thread, it is getting silly, so see this as a combo breaker)
Laporte was actually originally (way back in the alpha) a man named Pieter, and when he became a she (for a very important metatextual reason), Simms didn't become a man - partly because we felt male players would have a harder time identifying with a relationship with a male character.
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I also had trouble picturing myself as a lesbian, so every time I somebody said "Laporte" in my mind I would replace it with my name :nod: ... also I would replace orders to stay away from cap ships with orders to take out beams so my cap ships could last longer :D I finished a lot of missions with my fighter below 5%. Doing this in 'Post Merdian' I was able to keep the miss jumped ship alive :arrr:
Awesome. We really wanted to add a bonus objective for saving the Vilnius, but it was something we didn't have time for before release.
Hm, somehow the lesbian relationship reminded me of the ancient greek ideal of gay lovers being better warriors because they would care and fight for each other on the battlefield, of course that ideal had its roots in a time when wars were mostly hand-to-hand combat between rather small groups of nobles.
I thought it was overall fitting, and it didn't feel like it was just there to get some girl on girl action or forced like a "oh we are so progressive, lesbian love"-thing. The way they grew to love each other was believable against the backdrop of the war, or at least I think so.
But if you can't really get yourself to like it, I think this idea
I also had trouble picturing myself as a lesbian, so every time I somebody said "Laporte" in my mind I would replace it with my name :nod:
makes for an interesting alternative to the player.
(I just assume we don't have to use spoiler tags for everything in this thread, it is getting silly, so see this as a combo breaker)
Laporte was actually originally (way back in the alpha) a man named Pieter, and when he became a she (for a very important metatextual reason), Simms didn't become a man - partly because we felt male players would have a harder time identifying with a relationship with a male character.
So..
So Laporte and Simms should be considered to be genuinely attracted to eachother as lesbians? Or is their attraction a matter of support and need for the other's strengths? (for example: two people who pull through a harsh period together may come to love and need eachother, without having a romantic relationship). Or is that up to the player to interpret?[/spoilers]
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So..
So Laporte and Simms should be considered to be genuinely attracted to eachother as lesbians? Or is their attraction a matter of support and need for the other's strengths? (for example: two people who pull through a harsh period together may come to love and need eachother, without having a romantic relationship). Or is that up to the player to interpret?[/spoilers]
There is nothing not genuine about their relationship - the fact that Laporte was once a male character doesn't mean we view the existing relationship as only in place 'as an accident'. It's as real as it would have been before.
But whether the relationship is romantic love or just really intense camaraderie or both is up to you.
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Meant more so to say other factors than a close bond, did not mean to say if their relationship was genuine or not. :)
On a different note, interesting how people equally love and hate Steele according to the census there.
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Wanting him dead != hating him.
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Personally I'm torn between having a fighter vs. fighter duel against him, blowing up his flagship with him inside it or having him before a war-crimes tribunal and executed. But I seriously want him to die in WiH 2 and I want to be involved in his death, his capture or in aquiring the proof needed for the death sentence.
Allthough to be fair the worst war crime of the Tevs, the nuclear bombing of civilian areas on Luna, was committed by Severanti, not Steele. But Steele has enough innocent blood on his hands as well. Just think of all the refugee convoys he ordered destroyed!
Wait, Laporte fell out with Brie? Was there a fiction viewer update I missed or something?
It's not like a fight or anything, but when she writes about the dissolving of the Navajas in her diary, Laporte mentions how she isn't really sad about going different ways from him. It sounds like the two have grown apart because of the way she changed during the war. And while she mentions her ex wingmate Kassim in her diary twice, she not once mentions her (as far as we know) only living relative.
I might read more into it than is there, but that's how it looks to me.
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But Steele has enough innocent blood on his hands as well. Just think of all the refugee convoys he ordered destroyed!
If you've played The Blade Itself, then you'd know that the UEF don't exactly care about refugees/civillians either when it comes down to it.
They'd rather sacrifice everyone on the station than hand it to the Tevs. Scorched Earth and all.
This is their own people too. Doesn't seem like either side really gives a damn about 'collateral damage'.
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Note that the people on that station are military personnel or dependents thereof. They knew the risks when they agreed to be stationed there during wartime.
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But Steele has enough innocent blood on his hands as well. Just think of all the refugee convoys he ordered destroyed!
If you've played The Blade Itself, then you'd know that the UEF don't exactly care about refugees/civillians either when it comes down to it.
They'd rather sacrifice everyone on the station than hand it to the Tevs. Scorched Earth and all.
This is their own people too. Doesn't seem like either side really gives a damn about 'collateral damage'.
In that particular case the argument can be (and indeed was) made that destroying this station would prevent more collateral damage in the near future by degrading GTVA warfighting ability. Don't try to make it too simple. And don't be fooled into confusing 'caring about something' with 'doing what is necessary' - the willingness to discard something in order to achieve a goal does not imply a lack of care for it.
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So, with Simms is out of the way, do you think that Laporte was going through a phase? Like if I (I'm a dude) were to defect from the GTVA, what would my chances be with her?
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So, with Simms is out of the way, do you think that Laporte was going through a phase? Like if I (I'm a dude) were to defect from the GTVA, what would my chances be with her?
At first I was like :lol:
Then I was like :eek2:
Now I'm like :rolleyes: and :p combined
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Eh, I give it a resounding "meh" coupled with a "pyschopathic tendancies, do you really want to go there?"
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No wonder the Shivans tried to exterminate humankind..
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No wonder the Shivans tried to exterminate humankind..
The Shivans have no imaginations?
I rather doubt that. :P
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Seeing as how I somehow survived multiple trips through the Knossos, lost my wing countless times, had my cap ship shot out from under me, saw a star die, and much more... It would not be a bad match.
Psychopathic Tendencies? Hells yeah, that's hot ;7
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That makes me wonder if FS2 Alpha 1 will be an enemy ace you have to defeat in WiH2.
Wouldn't that be awesome?
Or even better! In the Tev campaign that will surely be made, you play as him again.
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What is Admiral Steele is actually Alpha 1?
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Alpha 1 died in FS2 bro, well if you don't leave.
otherwise I have NO idea. ALPHA ONE is not really supposed to be named per-say.
Oh and Terran (I prefer calling my species this even IRL because human is such a over-used term and borderline blasphemous) females are known to form deeper brotherhood/sisterhood bonds that males. Males tend to lone-wolf it.
speaking of lone-wolf. Will we ever see that thing among the 212nd?
I hope the L-W and the Core of the 212nd (Mackie) come telling the UEF that their govt sucks because they don't know what happened out at Capella and the disaster (Narlethotype(SP)) that was barely avoided. Or SOMEONE says something. I HATE it when everyone is an idiot and can have one small bit of sense about them.
EDIT: Oh, almost forgot:
MAGNIFICENT BASTARD! LOL just like Bosch... Beer anyone?
My vote on him (^^) love/hate.
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What is Admiral Steele is actually Alpha 1?
His Tech Room entry says he was in the 66th Black Knights, and then in the 99th Skulls.
FS2 Alpha 1 started in the 53th Hammerheads.
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His Tech Room entry says he was in the 66th Black Knights, and then in the 99th Skulls.
FS2 Alpha 1 started in the 53th Hammerheads.
For all you know, he may have met FS2 Alpha 1, or even flew in As Lightning Fall. ;)
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I love cool antagonists, so if Admiral Steele goes down, it'd better be like a muthafrackin champ against a hundred Santhani or something sutably epic. Skilled enemy commaders who SURVIVE are rare in fiction, and usually quite cool. I'd be just fine if Steele is the "Char" of Blue Planet.
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You should have another poll question about whether you loved or hated the lezbo crap you put in the campaign.
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There was lezbo crap in the campaign?
Sorry, but that aspect of WiH is not under discussion, and will not be changed. If it offends you, tough. If you complain about it, the only reaction will be that we'll put in more of it.
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Oh yeah, I should complain about it right now then :D
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The E, that's wonderful how you would alienate people who up until now have enjoyed your work. I swear, from a purely modding aspect with the cool models, weapon effects, and new game convetions you have created, this mod is great. From a spiritual, political, and diversity/tolerance/political correctness aspect, I hate this mod.
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Yes, but since the aspects you hate are the ones we on the team love the most, changing them is not on our list of priorities. Especially not if all you say is that you hate it, without getting into detail why you hate it, or how you would have done it differently.
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The E, to be more specific, I specifically don't appreciate your liberal PC garbage. The eastern mysticism mixed with sexual perversity. Other mods have great pyrotechnics and storylines without having to get into any of that stuff. By incorporating these elements, you make FS2 no better than the smut on television. I think I'm going to play Into the Depths of Hell again to clear my head...see you when WiH2 comes out.
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*Shrug*
Haters gonna hate.
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Nehemiah I see what you mean, as I'm not too fond of that stuff myself. Complaining about it won't do much good though. As it will only serve to annoy certain members here :p
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Troll Detected (http://i49.tinypic.com/s5ixyv.png)
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Into the Depths of Hell?
Eternally... respawning... enemies... eternally... they never stop... 'enemy wing has just arrived'... 'enemy wing has just arrived'... 20+ minutes missions... respawning enemies...
*fetal position*
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Disapproval is different than hatred, The E. There are many viewpoints and behaviors I find reprehensible, but hatred of those holding to such views is also reprehensible.
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Troll Detected (http://i49.tinypic.com/s5ixyv.png)
Different opinion =/= troll
your troll-fu is weak
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You should have another poll question about whether you loved or hated the lezbo crap you put in the campaign.
Laporte was originally a male, but for a storyline reason it became very important that she be a woman. By that point it was too late to gender-swap Simms too, so we shrugged and rolled with it.
But as a more specific reaction to your remarks!
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_MpUjrTIlf9k/TCgRRA1Lf7I/AAAAAAAACCI/KUn87SEBQIY/s1600/haters2.jpg)
People are always going to see things that aren't there. Our goal is to tell a good story. If you were Amish and disliked modern technology, you would probably hate our campaign because it has lasers and spaceships; but there's just nothing we can do about it. It doesn't mean we have a pro-laser, pro-spaceship agenda that we're trying to smash in your face.
oh wait we totally do
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No, seriously. Would you reject a million dollars if the one that gave it to you just happens to be homosexual?
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What was the reason Laporte had to be a girl?
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What was the reason Laporte had to be a girl?
It's a formal element relating to the relationship between AoA and WiH.
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No, seriously. Would you reject a million dollars if the one that gave it to you just happens to be homosexual?
No I most certainly would not reject it. Like I said, I may disagree with a viewpoint and a behavior, but I don't approve of hating the person holding those views or practicing those behaviors.
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What was the reason Laporte had to be a girl?
It's a formal element relating to the relationship between AoA and WiH.
Remind me what that was again. You had a male as the protagonist in the first campaign, so you needed to balance it with a female in the second, or what?
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I must echo the "Haters gonna hate" sentiment. The only problem with the relationship I have is that I generally view romantic subplots as inferior to other subplots, but I'm antisocial so that's probably just me. :P
The only reason I can think of is the metaphorical one involving the Vishnans referring to the Shivans (the ones who contacted Noemi) as feminine ("Our sisters are coming", SJ Sath = "SHE"). Other than that, there could be a literal plot reason but it's most likely spoilerrific.
[EDIT] jeez you guys are posting fast
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No, seriously. Would you reject a million dollars if the one that gave it to you just happens to be homosexual?
No I most certainly would not reject it. Like I said, I may disagree with a viewpoint and a behavior, but I don't approve of hating the person holding those views or practicing those behaviors.
So what exactly are you hung up on then? There's hardly any 'Eastern mysticism' in War in Heaven, and our narrative style tries to be naturalistic and documentary-esque at points, which means we can't pretend gay people don't exist.
I mean Laporte's a psychotic killing machine, surely that's more worthy of concern than her bisexual or homosexuality.
Why not just relax and enjoy the campaign?
What was the reason Laporte had to be a girl?
It's a formal element relating to the relationship between AoA and WiH.
Remind me what that was again. You had a male as the protagonist in the first campaign, so you needed to balance it with a female in the second, or what?
Not quite, but close. We don't do quotas but we do do symbolism and War in Heaven's entire story and character arc is an almost-perfect mirror of AoA.
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Noemi's gonna merge with the Shivans like Bei did?!
:eek:
[EDIT]: Spoiler'd
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Noemi's gonna merge with the Shivans like Bei did?! :eek:
I'm talking about R1. You know we wouldn't drop any spoilers about R2.
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Oh, OK. You had me going for a second there :P
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Nehemia, while I can understand the points you are making, the way you made them weren't exactly.... tactfull. Using words like garbage and crap is something you might want to avoid if you want to be taken seriously and not mistaken for a troll.
And you don't have to know one bit of Hindu religion. Everything you need to know about Blue Planet is in Blue Planet, either ingame or in the Techroom. The names are just that - names. Wether you call them Vishnan and Shivan or Angels and Devils or Blobs and Blips doesn't change what they are and how they act.
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Yeah, okay gents. I think Nehemia's got the general gist of what we're saying.
Nehemia, you're perfectly entitled to holding that opinion.
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I think -Nobert- summed it up very nicely. :yes:
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Into the Depths of Hell?
Eternally... respawning... enemies... eternally... they never stop... 'enemy wing has just arrived'... 'enemy wing has just arrived'... 20+ minutes missions... respawning enemies...
*fetal position*
You should have seen what Noise had in store. (http://web.archive.org/web/20040908045540/www.geocities.com/noiseball2000/CHSTRY.html)
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damn, and only 4 and 1/8 of those chapters
1-4 and 5 ended abruptly
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Glad that hurtful, aimless conversation is over.
I think I played Into the Depths of Hell previously, I don't think there's campaigns I didn't play with exception of the parody campaigns. And indeed WiH mirrors AoA. Where AoA seemed about preserving (ending the chapters with destruction), WiH seems to be about destroying, perhaps ending the chapter with construction, achievement or choice, which I assume BP3 is about.
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You should have seen what Noise had in store. (http://web.archive.org/web/20040908045540/www.geocities.com/noiseball2000/CHSTRY.html)
That doesn't sound bad.
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Try putting each individual chapter into one campaign. It's not that easy.
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I haven't yet made my probably-uber-long post summing up my feelings about the campaign, but this seemed like a relatively-short way to toss out a few points, so here goes:
I identify with the Federation
After what we saw during that campaign, I can't see how any rational human can have more than a shred of empathy for the Alliance. The GTVA are a bunch of invading, lying, manipulative, murderous war criminals, betraying everything that they purported to stand for. It's my sincere wish that they receive their comeuppance in one form or another.
I used a checkpoint at least once in the campaign
Yeah...a bit more than once. Some of those showpiece missions were brutal. :p
I threatened the hostage in M05
I felt like calling the bluff would swiftly end in everyone getting blowed up, so I decided to put a little pressure on that poor little spacesuit inhabitant. I didn't even intentionally up the ante by flying next to her...I was already sitting there when the directive cleared, so I sort of fell into it by accident. The choice seemed in-character for Noemi at that point, and it felt like the best way to buy the most time. I did try replaying the mission in the Tech Room and calling the bluff, but I wound up getting myself killed by accident, and I haven't tried it again since.
I thought Darkest Hour was just right
The first half of my playthrough is a bit of a blur in my memory, so I don't remember any specifically awful difficulty about this mission. I probably died once or twice, but it wasn't a huge deal. I wasn't making any sustained attempt to keep the rookies alive, though...I have enough trouble watching out for my own skin. :p
I killed Xinny and Zero
See below.
I let Xinny and Zero shoot me down
There was no "letting" here...I got my ass royally handed to me the first time through, and I didn't stand a chance against them. :p After seeing the recommendation text, I decided to give it another shot, and I managed to take them all out. As the dialogue unfolded, though, I felt like I had been kicked in the gut, and I sort of wish I had stuck with the first outcome. :(
I found the Simms conversation easy
I decided to go with the direct approach, based on the briefing hints and what I knew of Noemi's personality, and I worked my way through it without a hitch. I am curious as to how the other paths would have turned out, though.
I found the Nyx dogfight too hard
I didn't so much kill them as fly around afterburning like crazy hoping that someone else would. :p I did manage to make it through, though.
I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia
I didn't exactly get what each option entailed when I made the first choice, but I got the gist of it after that. I had to replay the mission once or twice, so that helped too. Really cool mechanic.
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was a terrible accident
My heart fell into my stomach at the way that one turned out. That situation held such promise, and then that other asshole frigate had to jump in guns a-blazing and destroy it.
I felt good in One Perfect Moment
Beautiful atmosphere, beautiful music, beautiful character development, pretty much beautiful everything.
I was shocked and appalled by the assassination
How low can the GTVA sink? That low. Cowardly swine.
I really loved the soundtrack at the end of Pawns
I can't even for the life of me remember what the hell it was, but I know I thought it was awesome. :p
I thought Delenda Est was too hard
The first minute or two of this mission kicked my ass every single time, even when I finally managed to beat it. Those first incoming bomber waves were brutal, and the Indus was usually at 50% integrity or lower by the time they were finished. It didn't help that I really didn't understand how to use Slammers. If there was some way to tone that attack down a bit, even just a hair, I think it'd help.
I want to kill Admiral Steele
See first answer. :p I'd have no qualms at all about introducing him to the business end of an Archer.
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Mongoose, I don't believe we could think more differently on the topic of the Alliance if we tried. :P
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I identify with the Federation: Sociology and politics are big passions of mine, so I was really interested when I read up on the Federation's system. I worry sometimes that the majority of humans are becoming so selfish and materialistic without guiding morals like religion that we're forgetting the very things that define us as something higher than common animals; ethics, right & wrong and consideration of (as many religions refer to it) 'supreme truth'. The Federation's focus on spiritual study, education and reasoning over simply throwing money or guns around really appeals to me, not to mention the Elders (who I respect for still being relatively democratic despite their privileged position) overcoming the one single obstacle for altruistic movements; mortality (someone can try all their lives to do good, but the moment they die anyone it was all for naught most of the time).
I can definitely sympathise with the GTVA's position, but suddenly turning up, demanding surrender, and then launching an all out assault against targets, even if civilian, without even an attempt at mediation does not help their position in my eyes. The Federation has flaws, I wouldn't doubt for a second, but they seem a lot better than the GTVA at the moment, especially considering tricking the Vasudans and (what appears to be) them supporting the GeF, a clearly off-the-rails terrorist force.
I used a checkpoint at least once in the campaign: Amazing idea (hats off to whoever's it was, the only other campaign I know to have done it was PI). Didn't use it a great deal but certainly saved me from frustration on Aristeia.
I called the bluff in M05: Judged they wouldn't care about the pilot, and attacking them wouldn't delay them, so seemed the best option.
I thought Darkest Hour was just right: Assuming darkest hour is the one over Earth, loved it (though admittedly I did accidentally have it on easy, shall try it on medium next time). Would help if the Diomedies didn't wipe me out with its first beam swipe 99% of the time. :hopping: :lol:
I killed Xinny and Zero: I completely forgot they were from Lion's den. At first they did pwn my wingman and then me and I got the bonus objective... but then the debriefing told me who was on the cruiser (fav. Character from BP) so I replayed and somehow proceeded to massacre them without loosing either wingman. (For the record, if any of the BP team are reading this, I havent just sent Al Fadil off to a torture camp or anything have I? :nervous:)
I found the Simms conversation easy: Not stupidly so but easy enough as the guidance was good. Made a really interesting change from usual game play.
I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia: As with the checkpoint system, a really interesting idea. Allows people to choose how they want to approach the situation.
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was a terrible accident: Things were going so well too. The artillery frigate commander got a serious reprimand for that I hope.
I felt good in One Perfect Moment: T'was a nice restfull mission. Was going to explore the city but decided to remain with the transport.
As for Steele... Grr. He's a decent strategist clearly, but then he went and attacked civilians and lost all sense of honor in my eyes. Maybe he was justified in some way (I recall a 'thousand now, ten million later thing'), but I don't really care... Its The Hague for you, buddy :p
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I killed Xinny and Zero: I completely forgot they were from Lion's den. At first they did pwn my wingman and then me and I got the bonus objective... but then the debriefing told me who was on the cruiser (fav. Character from BP) so I replayed and somehow proceeded to massacre them without loosing either wingman. (For the record, if any of the BP team are reading this, I havent just sent Al Fadil off to a torture camp or anything have I? :nervous:)
Yeah. The Buntu are totally going to brainwash him and torture him until he admits there are five lights. It's what they do.
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And what are they going to tortue him with? Pictues of cute Kittens?
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Oh man, I completely forgot about that. :lol:
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And what are they going to tortue him with? Pictues of cute Kittens?
lolcats
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Here we go:
I identify with both factions. How could I not have a shred of GTVA-ness after two games and myriad campaigns fighting Shivans, rebels, Zods, and watching so many ships and worlds burn? We know what happened, and we know that the vast majority of the pilots and crews just want peace, but they think that their leaders know the best way to that is fighting.
And of course the Feds are fighting for their very survival against overwhelming odds. What's not to like about that? They also have seen countless ships and cities burn, and they also are willing to sacrifice themselves to save their comrades.
It's all messed up.
Man I used so many checkpoints... Admittedly few once I figured out how to win: Combined arms, stick with your frigate and follow orders! Every time!
Called the bluff. The objective was to stall, and that's the best way to delay somebody.
Darkest hour. The toughest part was preserving the rooks and the V-whatever it's called ship.
Xinny... Zero... they're dogfighting with angels now... :(
I'd have let them win if they didn't blow up my transport when they were done! jerks!
EDIT: Couldn't remember the Nyx fight, so it probably wasn't that tough for me.
Understood the point buy system because I remember hearing about it earlier. I think it bugged on me though, I ended up with about 9 points worth of reinforcements.
Vasudan logistics: treachery. There was a contact/spy within the UEF, feeding them some good, and some bad information. He probably let slip that there was a Tev corvette engaged with a UEF frigate, and the captain did the rest. Bam. Cease-fire avoided, Vasudans angry and hostile to the UEF.
One Perfect Moment was incredible, with the atmosphere of the mission and dialogue, the cold beauty of the moon, and the awe of flying above the surface of something in FS! I'd heard that it'd be done, but I had no idea it'd be so incredible.
I'm surprisingly neutral on the assassination.
The entire soundtrack was awesome, so I can safely assume that I really loved it at the end of Pawns.
Dalenda Est. Again, it seems hard until you realize that your objective is to just protect the Indus. if there are no fighters about, order your wings to take out a cruiser. Throw some topedos at a beam cannon once in a while and you're good.
And I added my vote to love/want to kill Steele both.
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and the awe of flying above the surface of something in FS! I'd heard that it'd be done, but I had no idea it'd be so incredible.
Well... that isn't anything new to be honest. I've flown over a surface like that in a campaign for TBP over a year ago.... and it wasn't new back then either, just new for me. Though I didn't see a city made out of individual buildings and a model for the streets before!
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I killed Xinny and Zero: I completely forgot they were from Lion's den. At first they did pwn my wingman and then me and I got the bonus objective... but then the debriefing told me who was on the cruiser (fav. Character from BP) so I replayed and somehow proceeded to massacre them without loosing either wingman. (For the record, if any of the BP team are reading this, I havent just sent Al Fadil off to a torture camp or anything have I? :nervous:)
I think more likely Sam Bei may talk some sense into him, maybe even win his sympathy. I guess they may keep him awake and feed him little to none if they want info out of him, but I doubt they'd hang him from his feet to beat the information out of him. If you want to be a real jerk, try to see if that transport boards to rescue Al'fadil, then blow the transport up. :P
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Vasudan logistics: treachery. There was a contact/spy within the UEF, feeding them some good, and some bad information. He probably let slip that there was a Tev corvette engaged with a UEF frigate, and the captain did the rest. Bam. Cease-fire avoided, Vasudans angry and hostile to the UEF.
Wait, what? Did I miss something? Was that in the mission, the debrief, one of the later missions, or what?
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Wait, what? Did I miss something? Was that in the mission, the debrief, one of the later missions, or what?
Nope, pure speculation, but was the reason for my vote.
EDIT: Unless you're speaking of the BIG Contact/Spy within the UEF feeding them information, in which case it was stated pretty clearly.
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Wait, what? Did I miss something? Was that in the mission, the debrief, one of the later missions, or what?
Nope, pure speculation, but was the reason for my vote.
EDIT: Unless you're speaking of the BIG Contact/Spy within the UEF feeding them information, in which case it was stated pretty clearly.
I don't remember anything like that. I remember there being a GTVA contact giving mixed-quality info to the UEF, but no explicitly stated UEF guys giving mixed-quality intel to the GTVA.
Also, screw spoiler tags, it says "SPOILERS" in the title for a reason.
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Vasudan logistics: treachery. There was a contact/spy within the UEF, feeding them some good, and some bad information. He probably let slip that there was a Tev corvette engaged with a UEF frigate, and the captain did the rest. Bam. Cease-fire avoided, Vasudans angry and hostile to the UEF.
Allow me to clarify: A contact within the UEF, feeding the UEF some good (Tev logistics ship) and some bad (Yeah it's totally safe to go meet this Zod in the middle of nowhere) information. He suggests to the UEF intelligence or command - before they suspected him - that there would be a Tev corvette engaged with the UEF frigate sent to rescue the Zod logistics ship, and the captain of the relief frigate did the rest. Bam, etc. etc.
Sorry for the confusion, that seemed perfectly coherent when I wrote it.
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But it was a contact within the GTVA who gave them the info about the Anemoi! And I don't remember anything about someone tipping off that Narayana, all I remember is that they said they had lost contact with the Indus (read: when that Deimos started jamming them) and had come to investigate/rescue them. Or did I miss something in the debriefing?
And I don't remember who suggested that meeting place, but I'm fairly certain it wasn't the same guy... in fact, wasn't it the Vasudan admiral himself who picked the location?
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But it was a contact within the GTVA who gave them the info about the Anemoi! And I don't remember anything about someone tipping off that Narayana, all I remember is that they said they had lost contact with the Indus (read: when that Deimos started jamming them) and had come to investigate/rescue them. Or did I miss something in the debriefing?
And I don't remember who suggested that meeting place, but I'm fairly certain it wasn't the same guy... in fact, wasn't it the Vasudan admiral himself who picked the location?
Aardwolf is correct on all counts.
There are two intelligence sources that have an impact on the campaign. One is the source in the GTVA, that leaked the Agincourt's deployment schedule to the UEF. The other is the one in the Federation that leaked the location of the meeting site to Admiral Steele.
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Well then, I suppose that's a comprehension failure on my part. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Wow, I was right. Awesome :)
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I identify with the Federation
They know what's out there as well as the GTVA does and I really do have faith in Byrne and the Elders. There was a few moments there (particularly after Darkest Hour) where my faith in the Elders started to waver and I turned my support more towards the Admirals but now with the ending I'm back with the Ubuntu where I should have been all along. The Shivans CANNOT be defeated militarily and it's futile to try.
I used a checkpoint at least once in the campaign
Yep, checkpoints worked marvelously for me. Loved them! Thank you for including them, they were extremely helpful.
I called the bluff in M05
Seemed like the thing to do.
I thought Darkest Hour was just right
Played it on Insane. Died a few times. It was challenging but all the times I died were due to errors I made (getting caught in flak, getting separated from the wing and picked off by fighters, running into a beam, etc).
I found the Simms conversation easy
No problems here.
I thought the Nyx dogfight was okay
It was hard but you're specifically told to execute evasive maneuvers! I made it through on Insane though I did have to call for Simms to help me twice. I did NOT try to get shots off (though if one of them wandered into my gunsights I opened up with everything I had), I just juked, weaved, and rolled like a wildman.
I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia 81 (5.8%)
It was almost like Freespace became an RTS for a minute!
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was a terrible accident
Trigger happy frigate captain. Not implausible.
I felt good in One Perfect Moment
I loved seeing Luna City! The whole scene was a nice little rest.
I was shocked and appalled by the assassination
Didn't even see those stealths coming. Which I guess is the whole point. And yes, it was horrible.
I thought the assassination was a good move
Reminded me of Tywin Lannister's plot in A Song of Ice and Fire.
I really loved the soundtrack at the end of Pawns
The whole soundtrack was amazing, but yes this was a great moment.
[spoilers]I thought Delenda Est was just right
Did it on Insane. The Indus was hit to 8% at the start, that was very very rough going but I was happy she could repair herself somewhat. The hardest part was finding the right turrets to go after, I failed the mission twice because of that. BUT thankfully the checkpoint system was very helpful and I finished it fine on the third attempt.
I love Admiral Steele
Steele is a military leader in the tradition of many other greats before him. He's brilliant and worthy of his enemy's respect. I imagine he's the sort whose cabin on the Atreus is filled with all kinds of books, well decorated, his crew loves him, and he's got a family back home he cares deeply for. He's doing his duty and he does it very, very well. If he dies in the war it'd be sad but fitting. Still, I hope he makes it through. Strikes me as a Robert E. Lee type or an Erwin Rommel. He's certainly more clever than Calder or Neterba (spelling?) who played right into his hands at Saturn. He KNEW Calder and Neterba were hot blooded and aggressive and he used it against them. As he said himself in Darkest Hour, 'well played'.
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I love Admiral Steele
Steele is a military leader in the tradition of many other greats before him. He's brilliant and worthy of his enemy's respect. I imagine he's the sort whose cabin on the Atreus is filled with all kinds of books, well decorated, his crew loves him,
Considering how many people died in his attack on Earth and for setting up the ambush in Delena Est I very much doubt that his subordinates love him. Respect maybe, but not love.
And that's not even considering what he pulled off with the Elder and the Vasudans. His jumptactics are gambling with his ship and the crews life and the Vqasudan deception is gambling with the very existance of the alliance.
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Considering how many people died in his attack on Earth and for setting up the ambush in Delena Est I very much doubt that his subordinates love him. Respect maybe, but not love.
And that's not even considering what he pulled off with the Elder and the Vasudans. His jumptactics are gambling with his ship and the crews life and the Vqasudan deception is gambling with the very existance of the alliance.
Remember that directly preceding Steele was a certain Cyrus Severanti, who had practically zero regard for human life as long as the job was completed eventually. He was committed to a protracted war of attrition that would claim millions of lives over several years. Steele by contrast wants to win the war now, if that costs a few thousand lives on the way, so be it. Ten thousand now is better than ten million later.
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Considering how many people died in his attack on Earth and for setting up the ambush in Delena Est I very much doubt that his subordinates love him. Respect maybe, but not love.
And that's not even considering what he pulled off with the Elder and the Vasudans. His jumptactics are gambling with his ship and the crews life and the Vqasudan deception is gambling with the very existance of the alliance.
Remember that directly preceding Steele was a certain Cyrus Severanti, who had practically zero regard for human life as long as the job was completed eventually. He was committed to a protracted war of attrition that would claim millions of lives over several years. Steele by contrast wants to win the war now, if that costs a few thousand lives on the way, so be it. Ten thousand now is better than ten million later.
Exactly, and Norbert seems to be ignoring that the people serving under him are SOLDIERS. They are no stranger to the fact that people must die in a war. Moreso because these are GTVA military personnel , they've fought the Shivans, and how many must've died in that conflict? I can well imagine Steele being a military officer who is loved and respected, especially due to his dedication to winning the war with a minimum of casualties on both sides
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Not to mention that shock jumping with the Serkr team or the Atreus significantly reduces the loss of life on the GTVA side. Those four vessels alone have destroyed a substantial number of vessels, while taking no losses.
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I didn't let Xinny and Zero kill me. They kicked my arse so hard I'll be feeling it sometime into next week. What a fantastic campaign from start to finish, and that Xanatos Gambit at the end was fantastic. Steele is awesome.
About my only complaint about the entire campaign is that the GTVA seemed to strike an out of character chord. In the previous games and in many campaigns, these are pilots that were outraged at the very idea of the NTF ignoring the BETAC yet they're going around bombing civilian installations? The 14th in particular just risked the lives over an entire campaign to protect the last survivors of the Terran race from another universe, and then when the ship doesn't want to get caught in a fire fight it's immediately traitorous? Just seemed a bit wierd, and I wonder if the GTVA knows something they aren't letting on. Maybe ETAK related?
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Well it gets you thinking about the Alliance. Is this the same GTVA I flew for in the second shivan incursion?
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Well it gets you thinking about the Alliance. Is this the same GTVA I flew for in the second shivan incursion?
Yeah pretty much. Just more hardline.
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Exactly, and Norbert seems to be ignoring that the people serving under him are SOLDIERS. They are no stranger to the fact that people must die in a war. Moreso because these are GTVA military personnel , they've fought the Shivans, and how many must've died in that conflict? I can well imagine Steele being a military officer who is loved and respected, especially due to his Spoiler:
dedication to winning the war with a minimum of casualties on both sides
I am not ignoring it, merely trying to see the whole picture. Apperently you define the word love far more loosly than I do.
If you took out the engines of the enemies, in Delanda Est and the mission before, four Deimos, one Leviathan and one Aeolus are destroyed and another Deimos and Aeolus disabled and most likely captured by the UEF (I'm quite sure it's possible.... on my last playthrough only one Deimos made the jump to safety with 8% left in her last surviving engine subsystem). And while those ships fought, the Imperieus was sitting back twiddling their thumbs.
With the Vasudan gamble going right for Steele, the loss of the Anemoi was completely negated, meaning that the Wargods - to whom Steele just sacrificed five corvettes, three cruisers and dozens of fighters and bombers - were for all intents and purposes only minor invonveniences. And with the Imperieus and Carthage there, they could have most likely taken them out with far less losses.
If he sent his bombers or the SSM team after the AWACS he could immediately sent in the Titanclass destroyer and most likely taken out all four UEF frigates long before the Indus could recharge their jumpdrives.
On top of that I strongly feel that the first duty of a soldier is to protect civilians. When Steele took over in Sol, he conquered that station and then immediately started hunting down everything that wouldn't immediately surrender - including transports packed full with civilians!
No warning shots! No disabling of the engines and capture! Just a "surrender or die", ten seconds to consider and then meciless slaughter.
Would you really love a superiour who orders you to slaughter civilians, especially considering how valiantly the GTA and GTVA fought to protect fleeing civies in both FS1 and 2?
Remember that directly preceding Steele was a certain Cyrus Severanti, who had practically zero regard for human life as long as the job was completed eventually. He was committed to a protracted war of attrition that would claim millions of lives over several years. Steele by contrast wants to win the war now, if that costs a few thousand lives on the way, so be it. Ten thousand now is better than ten million later.
And because of that the soldiers would love him? Respect him and be thankfull quite likely, but love?
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On top of that I strongly feel that the first duty of a soldier is to protect civilians. When Steele took over in Sol, he conquered that station and then immediately started hunting down everything that wouldn't immediately surrender - including transports packed full with civilians!
No warning shots! No disabling of the engines and capture! Just a "surrender or die", ten seconds to consider and then meciless slaughter.
Wrong. Play "Cost of War" again. The final GTVA bomber assault force contacts the UEF convoy, citing the rules of engagement. "By travelling under military escort, you are considered a military target." There are rules about attacking civilians. As in, don't. However, a civilian vessel travelling under military escort is, most likely, a military asset itself, and thus a valid target. In addition, a civillian freighter that doesn't immediately surrender to an armed force bearing down on it, well, that's just terminally stupid behaviour, right?
If you took out the engines of the enemies, in Delanda Est and the mission before, four Deimos, one Leviathan and one Aeolus are destroyed and another Deimos and Aeolus disabled and most likely captured by the UEF (I'm quite sure it's possible.... on my last playthrough only one Deimos made the jump to safety with 8% left in her last surviving engine subsystem). And while those ships fought, the Imperieus was sitting back twiddling their thumbs.
Two things. One, killing any of the Corvettes or Cruisers in Delenda Est takes some effort, as they are all scripted to warp out before destruction.
Two, Had the Imperieuse jumped in earlier, the Wargods would have more time to maneuver out of her way. If the range had been longer, the Wargods would have just scattered, or clustered up and run away for mutual protection. This way, the Imp and the Hydra were able to get almost guaranteed kills on 2 Karunas and 2 Sancti. Steele took a risk, and was vindicated. As said before, Steele gets results, and gets them fast. He also drives his crews as hard as he possibly can to do so. In the end, the people under his command will follow him everywhere, because they know that with him in command, they'll have a better chance of survival than under someone like Severanti.
And because of that the soldiers would love him? Respect him and be thankfull quite likely, but love?
Steele is the one guy they can count on to win the war as quickly and efficiently as he can. They know for a fact that the long, protracted struggle of Severanti's war of attrition is over. They know that they have the best chances of winning.
In the end, -Norbert-, what you are doing is armchair strategizing. Could Steele have done it differently? Sure he could. But what matters to him, and to the GTVA, and to the people under his command is that he is winning the war.
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I don't think dev team members should be getting involved in this debate.
Norbert's points are as valid as anyone else's. This war is supposed to be ambiguous, and we shouldn't be reducing that.
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On top of that I strongly feel that the first duty of a soldier is to protect civilians. When Steele took over in Sol, he conquered that station and then immediately started hunting down everything that wouldn't immediately surrender - including transports packed full with civilians!
No warning shots! No disabling of the engines and capture! Just a "surrender or die", ten seconds to consider and then meciless slaughter.
Wrong. Play "Cost of War" again. The final GTVA bomber assault force contacts the UEF convoy, citing the rules of engagement. "By travelling under military escort, you are considered a military target." There are rules about attacking civilians. As in, don't. However, a civilian vessel travelling under military escort is, most likely, a military asset itself, and thus a valid target. In addition, a civillian freighter that doesn't immediately surrender to an armed force bearing down on it, well, that's just terminally stupid behaviour, right?
Wrong with what?
Killing civilians is suddenly justified just because someone wrote a law declaring it so?
No it's not just justified, it's even an effective and good strategy and getting people to love you?
In FS2 it takes less than 10 seconds to scan a transport and thus determine wether there are any weapons or warmaterials on board. It takes very little time to disable the engines of freighters even with normal weapons, they wouldn't even need dedicated anti-subsystem weapons for it. And once the escort is shot down, the freighters and transports are most likely going to surrender anyway, wether they are civilian or not.
But the GTVA went straight for the freighters with their maxim armed Artemis wing.
By being so merciless towards civilians Steele is even undermining the official goal of the invasion. They say they want to take out the UEF government and take the people of Sol into the fold of the GTVA.
Do you think people who lost familymebers, that weren't even involved in the war, to the GTVA will happily join the murderers of their loved ones?
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I'm just going to clarify a point.
Killing civilians is suddenly justified just because someone wrote a law declaring it so?
It most definetely is. These laws are called 'Rules of Engagement'. Anyone who falls into them is quite likely to suffer death or incapacitation promptly after being sighted by any forces liable to apply said rules.
/me disappears into the night.
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There seem to be many, many people who disagree with you on that in the world. I could name three incidents with civilian casualities from the top of my head that were technically legal, but still caused a massive international uproar just in the last year.
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Were those civilians traveling under armed escort by military forces hostile to the one that shot at them, like the civies in 'Cost of War' were? I think anyone IRL would agree that's a big no no if you don't want to get shot at. It sucks but the civilian ships made themselves valid targets just by accepting the UEF's protection and traveling under its guard.
Also, I hope more of the dev team responds and will be very sad if they don't. I'm very interested in hearing their opinions!
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Also, I hope more of the dev team responds and will be very sad if they don't. I'm very interested in hearing their opinions!
Thing is, we run the risk of ruining BP's magic by putting our $0.02 into everything. It also means then you guys are more limited in what you speculate regarding our next release. And then well, that sucks. :P
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Were those civilians traveling under armed escort by military forces hostile to the one that shot at them, like the civies in 'Cost of War' were? I think anyone IRL would agree that's a big no no if you don't want to get shot at. It sucks but the civilian ships made themselves valid targets just by accepting the UEF's protection and traveling under its guard.
Also, I hope more of the dev team responds and will be very sad if they don't. I'm very interested in hearing their opinions!
So you say if a convoy of the "doctors without borders" (or however their english name is) is escorted through dangerous areas by any military troops that makes them legit military targets?
I guess in that reagard I'm very "ubuntu". I don't just want to know what people think, I want to know why they think so ;)
And I don't think that letting team members express their point of view on the things already published is a problem or limits speculation about future releases. Unless that one person dictates the storyline all alone and the only person for whom that might be true would be Darius.
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Well it gets you thinking about the Alliance. Is this the same GTVA I flew for in the second shivan incursion?
It's not exactly the same. In the process of learning how to take a better fight to the Shivans, it appears that the Terrans dehumanised themselves a little.
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No. They're simply willing to do what's necessary to ensure the survival of our species
(Snail is not being entirely srs here)
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Quoth Adama: It's not enough to survive, we have to be worthy of surviving :cool:
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No. They're simply willing to do what's necessary to ensure the survival of our species
(Snail is not being entirely srs here)
Because making the Shivans want to wipe us out again is totally a good survival strategy, right? :drevil:
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Because making ourselves an easier target is totally a good survival strategy, right? :drevil:
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Quoth Adama: It's not enough to survive, we have to be worthy of surviving :cool:
This. If surviving means discarding every ideal that the GTVA stood for, I'd rather see it all crash and burn. This definitely isn't the same GTVA I fought for in the nebula.
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Any strategy banking on the Shivans being nice and going "Oh hey you've been good, so we're not going to kill you all! ^_^" doesn't feel much like a strategy. I mean what, is this a Disney movie? Everyone hold hands and sing, and the Shivans will be your friend? What fairy tale world are you living in?
We prove we are worthy of surviving by giving them one hell of a fight! (and trying to survive as long as possible while...strategically advancing in the other direction).
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Again and again and again, you always forget the Vishnans in all this...
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The destroyers only came for us to punish us for our sins and arrogance! Ubuntu is the only true path for humanity's survival!
........ Or something :confused:
I'm going to rant about how I view the UEF and GTVA. Feel free to shoot me down:
In all seriousness, I do think the theme of Blue Planet is that emphasis on militarization will ultimately destroy you. Imperialism and expansionist policy that drove the Ancients to conquer neighboring civilizations and the Terrans & Vasudans to war COULD POSSIBLY BE what provoked the Shivans into "restoring balance". In that sense, you can view the Shivans (both in BP and in FS canon) as being largely symbolic. The Terrans in particular after the Great War seemed to withdraw into themselves, they only learned to be CONSTANTLY vigilant FOREVER... and yet the Second Incursion was essentially caused yet again by arrogance and a distinct lack of humility for the cosmos.
It's true that Ubuntu philosophy needed isolation in order to prosper, but that can be taken as further argument against expansionism I would say. The Terrans (and the Vasudans to a slightly lesser degree) prior to the Great War were heading in the exact OPPOSITE direction of "enlightenment", motivated by desire (basically greed) to branch out and take more and more space for themselves (like the Ancients). This activity disrupts the balance, which the Vishnans and Shivans uphold.
It says a lot I think that only after being FORCED to stay put and make do with what they have did the Terrans in BP canon achieve their enlightenment and become the favored candidates for whatever roles the Vishnans/Shivans reserve for them (taking this from the line 'They are not the ones we seek' from AoA, when the Vishnans talk to the Shivans in reference to the GTVA). Also I don't think it's coincidental that there are two hugely nagari sensitives in the story (Bei and Laporte, a male and a female to communicate with the masculine Vishnans and feminine Shivans respectively) who communicate with the Vishnans and Shivans.
It's been said a lot but it's worth repeating and in caps: THE SHIVANS CANNOT BE DEFEATED MILITARILY. So yes, the GTVA is militarily stronger but that isn't necessarily a strength; in this context it's actually a weakness and a repetition of the same old mistakes.
Before anyone says anything about it, that isn't to say we should hunker down and become pacifists and allow everyone to walk all over us. Clearly the UEF isn't weak and is quite capable of holding its own. I think the difference is in the mindset and ideology. The UEF is doing something different than the GTVA, something which evidently the Shivans/Vishnans prefer and I think it has to do with eliminating greed and materialism and all the baggage that comes with them (i.e. the fear/paranoia that led the GTVA to militarize so heavily).
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Any strategy banking on the Shivans being nice and going "Oh hey you've been good, so we're not going to kill you all! ^_^" doesn't feel much like a strategy. I mean what, is this a Disney movie? Everyone hold hands and sing, and the Shivans will be your friend? What fairy tale world are you living in?
We prove we are worthy of surviving by giving them one hell of a fight! (and trying to survive as long as possible while...strategically advancing in the other direction).
Were you sleeping through "Universal Truth"? The Shivans seek to destroy us because we destroy. They're not going to kick our asses because of the losses either or both sides incurred in the war for Sol, they're going to kick our asses for causing each other these losses.
...although the whole "choose a side" thing introduced in WiH makes it a bit more complicated.
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That wouldn't make sense in context with Bosch though. The GTVA forms in the context of co-operatione and harmony, in response to the Lucifier and the Shivans. Bosch gets ideas about the Shivans, secedes, starts demanding systems, massacring civilians and sending people to die at GTVA beam cannons. He then starts a full scale rebellion including remnants of the GTVI and builds ETAK. Shivans wander in from Gamma Draconis, annihililate a GTVA cruiser, but when the guy who actually started all the trouble and strife is in their hands, they board his ship, kill all of his crew EXCEPT him and wander off.
They then commit to a full scale assault on the GTVA, wiping out their nebular prescence and stop to blow up the Capella star, after which they either withdraw or vanish.
The Shivans aren't playing nice anymore if they ever were. If they turn up, the only in-character option for them is to begin a full scale assault on both UEF and GTVA territory, probably drawn by whatever experiment the Elders are cooking up. Which may turn out to be the entire reason the GTVA is attacking in the first place. Like I said, I still feel the GTVA hasn't been in character for a great deal of this. If every single person below Admiral was uninformed about their intentions on hitting Earth, you would have had a massive full scale rebellion likely throughout the GTVA without enormous amounts of propaganda before hand. While I like where the story went, just that bit seemed clunky.
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Like I said, I still feel the GTVA hasn't been in character for a great deal of this. If every single person below Admiral was uninformed about their intentions on hitting Earth, you would have had a massive full scale rebellion likely throughout the GTVA without enormous amounts of propaganda before hand.
Sure they were informed. They were told their legendary homeland, a place that some of them still remembered and had visited, was now in the hands of a religious government with a non-elected cabal in charge.
Cue outrage.
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Can anyone point me to info on the GTVA / GTA being democratic btw? (Canon Infos!)
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Any strategy banking on the Shivans being nice and going "Oh hey you've been good, so we're not going to kill you all! ^_^" doesn't feel much like a strategy. I mean what, is this a Disney movie? Everyone hold hands and sing, and the Shivans will be your friend? What fairy tale world are you living in?
We prove we are worthy of surviving by giving them one hell of a fight! (and trying to survive as long as possible while...strategically advancing in the other direction).
...who said anything whatsoever about that being a strategy? That's not what the UEF is advocating, that's not what Samuel Bei concluded, and that's not what any rational person on either side would think. What most rational people should think, however, is that humanity engaging in the very sort of behavior that brought the Shivans upon us in the first place is a very, very bad idea. Aardwolf said it best: the Shivans destroy the destroyers. From where I'm sitting, the entirety of Sol being embroiled in civil war looks a heck of a lot like destruction.
Let me put this bluntly: Terrans and/or Vasudans will never be able to stand up to the Shivans militarily. Ever. This is a species that can muster up a hundred juggernauts with main weapons of physics-defying power at the drop of a hat. This is a species that is able to blow up stars. Build all the warships you want, maintain your vigilance as strictly as you can...it doesn't matter in the end. If the Shivans want you dead, you will die. That is, as MattTheGeek says, if you completely discount the Vishnans. While they undoubtedly have their own motives, they're the one true hope humanity has for long-term survival...and seeing as how the UEF are the side attempting to communicate with them, I see every reason to support their side.
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You know, every problem you cite in your first paragraph could be easily solved by the UEF just surrendering.
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The GTVA could also back down. Why should the UEF surrender? They're the ones being attacked.
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Well, it would save millions, maybe billions of their own lives. And if you go with the "Shivans will whoop your as for fighting" thing, even more on both sides.
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Again and again and again, you always forget the Vishnans in all this...
Vishnans are arguably just as bad if not worse than the Shivans. If you really think they're going to come to the rescue and save everyone, think again. The Shivans and Vishnans are always wiping each others' arses and patting each other on the back as they take turns annihilating entire species on a whim. Time to take the fight to the 'Gods' of the universe.
Still not being entirely serious
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Well, it would save millions, maybe billions of their own lives. And if you go with the "Shivans will whoop your as for fighting" thing, even more on both sides.
It's not the UEF's responsibility to do that, though. The GTVA are the ones who brought the war to Sol, not the other way around. They're the aggressors here. In fact, if the Shivans displayed behavior such as distinguishing between factions (which all evidence suggests they don't), I'd wager that they'd come down on the GTVA and largely ignore the UEF, as the former are the ones acting as "destroyers" here. It seems rather absurd to suggest that the onus should be on the invaded faction to surrender as opposed to the invading faction to, y'know, stop invading. :p
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In fact, if the Shivans displayed behavior such as distinguishing between factions (which all evidence suggests they don't), I'd wager that they'd come down on the GTVA and largely ignore the UEF, as the former are the ones acting as "destroyers" here.
But as you said, they don't. Undercutting your entire argument.
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Well, it would save millions, maybe billions of their own lives. And if you go with the "Shivans will whoop your as for fighting" thing, even more on both sides.
It's not the UEF's responsibility to do that, though. The GTVA are the ones who brought the war to Sol, not the other way around. They're the aggressors here. In fact, if the Shivans displayed behavior such as distinguishing between factions (which all evidence suggests they don't), I'd wager that they'd come down on the GTVA and largely ignore the UEF, as the former are the ones acting as "destroyers" here. It seems rather absurd to suggest that the onus should be on the invaded faction to surrender as opposed to the invading faction to, y'know, stop invading. :p
But which do you think is more likely to happen, assuming there's no act(s) of god(s) to interfere?
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In fact, if the Shivans displayed behavior such as distinguishing between factions (which all evidence suggests they don't), I'd wager that they'd come down on the GTVA and largely ignore the UEF, as the former are the ones acting as "destroyers" here.
But as you said, they don't. Undercutting your entire argument.
I know they don't, which is why I advocated for an alternative option in the first place. :p You can't hope to defeat the Shivans by force of arms, and you can't hope to get all pacifist with them, either. (Just ask the Ancients how retreating to their home system worked out.) The only option is to find another way, which is what Bei was advocating and the UEF powers-that-be seem to be doing. I have to say that I can't see the GTVA being all that excited about continuing that work if they were to take over Sol.
But which do you think is more likely to happen, assuming there's no act(s) of god(s) to interfere?
I would hope that it would be more likely that the GTVA fleets and/or citizenry would recognize that they're being fed massive amounts of misleading propaganda and rise up against it, but apparently that hasn't been the case. Still, despite the potential long-term benefits, I can't condone the UEF having to roll over and play dead in the face of unjust aggression. Besides that, even if the UEF did surrender unconditionally, there's no guarantee that this would satisfy the Shivans, since the GTVA's philosophy of the moment isn't too far off from the "destroyer" mentality. Also, don't forget that we've already seen quite a few acts of "gods," so I think continued interference is kind of a given. :p
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bump for fools who haven't taken it
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Fool?! Just kiddin'. Taken.
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Taken what?
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The.... poll.
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I identify with the Alliance: They're the protagonists of nearly every campaign I've played, and they have some valid reasons for taking Sol. The war as it is is a terrible mistake.
I threatened the hostage in M05: I was biased because I already knew killing the hostage would make it easier
I killed the hostage in M05 See above.
I thought Darkest Hour was just right It was pretty easy to get all of the obvious objectives, on the third play through I even saved Beta.
I 'let' Xinny and Zero shoot me down: I charged ahead, and was shot down, so "let" is a misnomer.
I found the Simms conversation easy: It was like taking a test; the answers felt right.
I thought the Nyx dogfight was okay: I got killed the first time through trying to figure out the weapon dialog, but it wasn't impossibly hard
I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia Names were ambiguous, but you can't really miss with a Bomber strike.
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was an act of treachery: Even after being told to stop fire, the Nara continued, I was genuinely shocked. When the Elder was killed, and Laporte hit her breaking point, I wondered why: It was one person's life compared to ~1,000 that a Fed vessel took during a cease fire - much lower than assassinating a leader.
I felt bored in One Perfect Moment: I think I'll like it better with voice acting.
I thought the assassination was a good move: It's a good, smart tactic. If Admiral Steele decided to go to a meeting in an unarmed transport, and then change ships via a Hermes, and the Feds didn't blow him up, they would be stupid.
I loved the soundtrack at the end of Pawns
I thought Delenda Est was just right: I died right away; but I got more used to the Uriel the second time.
I love Admiral Steele Easily the most interesting character in WiH so far, Lopez comes second, and then Calder. Laporte is interesting in a monolithic, sinister kind of way, Simms feels the weakest to me; I'm not sure why.
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I thought the assassination was a good move: It's a good, smart tactic. If Admiral Steele decided to go to a meeting in an unarmed transport, and then change ships via a Hermes, and the Feds didn't blow him up, they would be stupid.
The comparison is irrelevant. The Elders are not Admirals, they have no takings on military matters. What Steele did was cold-bloodly killing a civilian, not eliminating a military target.
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Or head of state, or member of senate. It was, at the very least, not remotely the worst thing that happened during the war.
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Imagine that Stephen Hawking and the Dalai Lama went to negotiate with a terrorist group and the terrorists executed them. That's sort of the role the Elders play, and the sort of outrage the assassination would draw.
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Imagine that Stephen Hawking and the Dalai Lama went to negotiate with a terrorist group and the terrorists executed them. That's sort of the role the Elders play, and the sort of outrage the assassination would draw.
And yet, it's still the logical thing for the Terrorists to do, especially if they were terrorists. In the name, they're striking terror. No one is safe.
Also, the Elders ARE political leaders. They have actual pull factor as politicians, and the death of a leader like that is part of this thing we call "Psychological Warfare" in a protracted campaign like the war for Sol.
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Perhaps so, but that's a different argument than 'would a UEF pilot be outraged or not'.
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Perhaps so, but that's a different argument than 'would a UEF pilot be outraged or not'.
I'm fairly certain that the assassination was aimed more at the populace of Sol than at the military. It's that kind of action that incenses the military, but terrifies civilians.
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Identified with the Federation
Used checkpoints, but, also couldn't figure out how to/was too slow/it didn't work the first time I tried(M1)
I'm pretty sure that I threatened the hostage the first time around, did the rest when playing through again.
Darkest hour felt just right.
Not really 'let', but I didn't keep replaying the mission when I died.
The Intervention was fine, the conversation -was- frustrating, but not in a 'didn't understand the mechanic' sense, just in the 'wish I was not in a ship so I could walk over and slap her' The dogfight was frustratingly hard, but that felt right in the context.
Half understood the call in menu, bomber strike and interceptors are pretty straight forward. The others, not so much. Don't know how that could be made clear without spoiling it though.
Accident, The Narayana fired before the Indus told them not to as I remember it. Don't see how there were any take backs after two holes get blown in the corvette.
Felt good in One Perfect Moment. Not so good when I went on amazon and bought the first four seasons of babylon 5.
Shocked and appalled at the assassination.
Really loved the soundtrack at the end of Pawns. And at everywhere else.
Delenda Est was just right. Had more problems not dying with the previous mission actually.
Love Steele... probably because I have a thing for Chiwetel Ejiofor.
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Perhaps so, but that's a different argument than 'would a UEF pilot be outraged or not'.
I'm fairly certain that the assassination was aimed more at the populace of Sol than at the military. It's that kind of action that incenses the military, but terrifies civilians.
I'm pretty sure it was because the elder knew too much
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I'm leaning towards more of Steele sabotaging Ubuntu-Vasudan relationship. Unless Steele is NGRI-sensitive...maybe he's...Shivan ambassador!
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Well, no; just consider the timing. The Elder was about to tell Laporte something very important. It's clear she has an idea of something the player knows nothing about.
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Possibly it was just bad luck, though!
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Yeah, I didn't think the Tevs were listening in, but I think the fact that it is she who is slain is probably purposeful.
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Well remember another Elder was going to go on the mission but she was ill, so Taudigani got swapped in.
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I identify with the Alliance - Not entirely true I identify with both sides, but when push comes to shove I'm backing the Alliance as humanity's safest haven.
I used a checkpoint at least once in the campaign - Several times to debeam Medea and save Torpedo Two.
I threatened the hostage in M05 - Unfortunately I didn't have any aspect seekers so the Gef bumrushed anyway.
I thought Darkest Hour was just right - Doesn't change the fact I died a lot. :)
I killed Xinny and Zero - After several retries no less, having been shot down quite unceremoniously I didn't stop until I could beat them on insane. Kudos to Fury's AI.
I found the Simms conversation easy - You get really good pointers in the briefing so it's simply a matter of acting whe the cue comes.
I thought the Nyx dogfight was okay - I probably should've voted for too hard since I died several times, but I don't want the campaign to become any easier, even if I only have one vote. :)
I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia - Bomber strike = bomber strike, pretty self explanatory.
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was an act of treachery - Indus joined in on pummeling the Arethusa. Nuff said.
I felt good in One Perfect Moment - Very good soundtrack choice, made me feel warm and fuzzy, particularly the part where Simms comments on Earth.
I was shocked and appalled by the assassination - On my first playthrough. Now however, with some facts from Conversations I think it was a well calculated and executed move on Steele's part. It's a good example of why the GTVA is the true be all end all fighting side in this war.
I loved the soundtrack at the end of Pawns - Not as much as I loved the Carthage's subspace shwaayyyeee and dramatic entrance track.
I thought Delenda Est was too hard - But then again I never play on anything lower than Hard as that's how FS is meant to be played. :P I did get a minor FPS drop too, reason #2 on my list for a GPU upgrade.
I love Admiral Steele - Imagine there is a sphere of Iron in space the size of Jupiter and every hundred thousand years an eagle flies past, it's wing briefly sweeping the edge. By the time the Eagle has eroded that sphere to nothing the amount of time passed in seconds won't have equalled one one billionth of Admiral Steele's awesome rating.
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Gimme yo votes! I gave you 13, please don't screw it up by voting for two contradictory options. :(
Can I love admiral Steele and have a desire to kill him?
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I thought Delenda Est was too hard - But then again I never play on anything lower than Hard as that's how FS is meant to be played. I did get a minor FPS drop too, reason #2 on my list for a GPU upgrade.
"Minor" drop? Can I have your computer please?
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I thought Delenda Est was too hard - But then again I never play on anything lower than Hard as that's how FS is meant to be played. I did get a minor FPS drop too, reason #2 on my list for a GPU upgrade.
"Minor" drop? Can I have your computer please?
After I've tried Shogun 2 and melted the GPU in the process. :P
EDIT: Oh BTW how goes progress on the Tev BP? Have you got a forum or anything to peek at? IRC channel?
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Private forum, technically public but generally small channel. :P
We're making progress, don't worry.
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Gimme yo votes! I gave you 13, please don't screw it up by voting for two contradictory options. :(
Can I love admiral Steele and have a desire to kill him?
I voted for both. I can't help but love him as a character, but after blowing up my elder and snatching revenge away from us at the last possible moment :banghead: and then blowing up my entire battlegroup :mad: I really want to take him down.
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Why would I want to kill my commanding officer?
/true colors.
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After digging through my old CDs and installing Freespace Open over 2 years ago, I finally decided to systematically try all of the various campaigns that had mysteriously been downloaded to my computer. The majority of them seemed to rehash the same general feel of FS2 - high on explosions, beams of death, and low on plot. With the possible exception of Derelict, Blue Planet was the only one of the bunch that actually had me thinking about the story, rather then just mentally checking off ways to complete a mission. After another 3 months of randomly looking around, I finally managed to blunder into Hard Light and find the forum here through TV Tropes, of all places. Before I add any silly opinions, I just want to convey my respect for everyone involved with this project. It is easily the equal of professional work, and honestly surpasses the original games by an order of magnitude.
I identify with the Federation
Having freshly played the original games immediately before sinking into Blue Planet, my sympathy towards the GTVA was limited. The GTVA as conveyed through the 'command talking head', was sterile and arrogant. They went looking for trouble in the Nebula, and bit off far more then they could chew. The idea of the GTVA as a better governing body better equipped to handle the threats of Shivan incursions seems laughable after seeing how badly they miscalculated. As far as the argument regarding the 'Ubuntu' socioeconomic philosophy not being exportable beyond Earth, I have to wonder whether that is really the question to ask. The minds behind the Ubuntu revamp of Earth proved themselves able to adjust to a fundamental shift in priorities after the collapse of the node without letting the situation devolve into chaos. Exporting workable ideas to gradually transition over to a less militaristic economy doesn't seem too crazy to work. In the long run, a larger and more efficient economy would likely result in a far larger and formidable fleet in any case then the GTVA's current impersonation of Juche.
I used a checkpoint at least once in the campaign
On my first playthrough, I managed to miss the idea of the checkpoint system entirely. After running through the campaign a few times, I found the system invaluable at the higher difficulty levels.
I called the bluff in M05
I called the bluff during the first playthrough. Unfortunately for me, I did this while flying directly towards the main Gef formation which promptly went hostile and blew me into flaming scrap. It was this situation that finally conveyed a much better sense of realism towards combat then the original game ever possessed. I could no longer get away with taking on 15 opponents at once and manage to plow through them as a nigh-invincible player avatar.
I thought Darkest Hour was just right
I killed Xinny and Zero
At this point, I had become rather cynical towards the AI of the game in regards to my old 'charge in head first' approach and threw my wingmen at my opponents as a needed sacrifice to get into position. Oddly enough, the wingmen managed to confuse the situation enough to allow me to mop up with without much trouble and save them to boot. Repeated the same pattern with the 2nd wave and lost 1 wingman.
I found the Simms conversation easy
I didn't have any particular trouble with the Simms dialog. Not because I actually followed the psych advice, so much as the direct approach is generally how I deal with things in real life, and I managed to luck out.
I thought the Nyx dogfight was okay
Never had a particular problem. Without the artificial shutdown of the primary weapons, it seemed a fairly even fight. The frustrating thing was toggling through the reset options via the keyboard while dodging.
I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia
The pointbuy system seemed fairly straightforward. The first time through I ending up blowing most of the points on the upper options simply because I knew what they were, but it didn't take long to convey the basic idea that the farther down the list you went, the bigger gun you got.
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was a terrible accident
Couldn't see it as much more then bad communications. The gains to be made with a better relationship with the Vasudens would seem to massively outweigh any advantage to taking out 1 Deimos and a neutral logistics ship.
I felt bored in One Perfect Moment
While I enjoyed the scenery, the setup to the mission proper did seem to take a bit longer then would have liked.
I was shocked and appalled by the assassination
Well, more 'surprised and irritated' then shocked and appalled, but I don't see the immediate war aims of the assassination unless the Elder was in possession of knowledge that was dangerous to the GTVA. If anything, I would think such an act would harden UEF resolve.
I thought Delenda Est was just right
Didn't have a real problem with Delenda Est, though at that point I had cheated by using the interceptor instead of the gunship.
I love Admiral Steele
Steele is a great character, and it's wonderful to have an enemy finally worthy of the term 'admiral'.
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You are an awesome poster and should stick around please. Glad you enjoyed it!
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I love Admiral Steele for being such a tactical genius, but I still want to see him dead for assassinating the Elder, and for killing off the Wardogs.
I loved carbonised and machineamb in Pawns.
I thought the Simms conversation was easy once Battuta told me how the scripting worked.
The pointbuy system was one of my favorite parts of WiH and I think it was implemented quite well.
The Vasudan logistics incident was a tragedy as a result of the fog of war and both sides having jammed each other's transmissions.
Because I <3 character development, I loved the back-and-forth in One Perfect Moment.
And though I didn't enjoy doing it, I killed Xinny and Zero.
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I identify with the Federation, if only because I feel the GTVA was hasty and foolish in it's attacks. Call me Naive, but I believe a peaceful dialog would have gone better for them in the long run. As alien as Ubuntu and the Elders may seem to be to the Security Counsel, surely a simple relaying of experiences and a few recorded accounts of the Second Shivan Incursion would at least convince them that it is right to arm themselves, and allowing the leaders of Ubuntu to aid the GTVA structure of Government would be immensely helpful, mass exodus to Earth be damned. But I suppose this is par for the course for the GTVA.
I never once used a checkpoint, more often than not because I forgot they were there.
I threatened the Hostage in M05. And oh how tense that sequence was the first time around.
Darkest Hour was fine.
I killed Xinney and Zero. However, and I felt like an asshole for this, when I first played that mission I didn't realize who they were. Cue a shocking moment of realization halfway through the briefing.
The Simms dialog was easy. Simply paying attention to the briefing is all that's required, and it was an engaging setpiece the first time around.
The Nyx Dogfight was okay. I never had any particular trouble with it on any difficulty, and until I read all the consternation with it I thought that whole sequence's sole purpose was to convince you of how massively powerful the Kent was.
I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia, it was built fairly straightforward and I hope to see more of its kind in the future.
I thought the Vasudan Logistics ship was an act of treachery. I would expect someone in command of a military vessel to have the perception to notice that the two sides involved in that incident were not shotting at each other, and to deduce from there what was happening. The "Gung-Ho Cowboy" excuse doesn't hold up very well when you think about what somebody in command of a large and important military asset like a Narayana is supposed to be capable of.
I felt good in one perfect moment, though it is a chore to play through a second time should you restart the campaign.
I thought Delenda Est was perfect, and it remains one of the greatest FS missions I have played, as well as being a kickass climax.
And, finally, I love Steele. Much as I dislike the GTVA in this instance, I really hope nothing terrible happens to him. He's the kind of leader Humanity will need in the inevitable next battle with the Shivans.
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And, finally, I love Steele. Much as I dislike the GTVA in this instance, I really hope nothing terrible happens to him. He's the kind of leader Humanity will need in the inevitable next battle with the Shivans.
I'm not so sure about that. He is so effective, because he's fighting other Humans and ones with a rather naive approach to war. He understands them and plays them.
The Shivans on the other hand are pretty unpredictable and prone to pulling unbelievable stunts out of their hats at the worst possible moment.
Those high risk stunts (or should I say gambles, since they might easily have turned out fatal against the UEF too) that worked so well against the UEF might very well turn into suicide if tried against the Shivans.
But I agree. As much as I like to see him punished (for reasons that have already been discussed to death in other threads), seeing him pitted against the Shivans is something I'd liek to see too.
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The Shivans on the other hand are pretty unpredictable and prone to pulling unbelievable stunts out of their hats at the worst possible moment.
And Steele doesn't do that sort of thing?
The end of Delenda Est proves otherwise.
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I'm not so sure about that. He is so effective, because he's fighting other Humans and ones with a rather naive approach to war. He understands them and plays them.
The Shivans on the other hand are pretty unpredictable and prone to pulling unbelievable stunts out of their hats at the worst possible moment.
Those high risk stunts (or should I say gambles, since they might easily have turned out fatal against the UEF too) that worked so well against the UEF might very well turn into suicide if tried against the Shivans.
But I agree. As much as I like to see him punished (for reasons that have already been discussed to death in other threads), seeing him pitted against the Shivans is something I'd liek to see too.
The way I look at it, the GTVA has tried to fight them with a guarded stance for too long. All of this Stumbling around whenever the Shivans DO actually drop some crazy new toy or tatic on the table. Steele, on the other hand, would probably be the kind of guy to simply stop and actually do something about it. Is there a risk that this something will backfire horrendously? Yes. Welcome to warfare. But two wars later and the alternative method hasn't exactly proven itself effective, IMO.
The GTVA cant decide to play offensively or defensively. I'm pretty sure Steele would pick one of those and go for it.
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The way I look at it, the GTVA has tried to fight them with a guarded stance for too long. All of this Stumbling around whenever the Shivans DO actually drop some crazy new toy or tatic on the table. Steele, on the other hand, would probably be the kind of guy to simply stop and actually do something about it. Is there a risk that this something will backfire horrendously? Yes. Welcome to warfare. But two wars later and the alternative method hasn't exactly proven itself effective, IMO.
The GTVA cant decide to play offensively or defensively. I'm pretty sure Steele would pick one of those and go for it.
Steele is precisely the kind of commander the GTVA needs in the Sol theater. Prior to Steele's ascendency to commanding operations, both the UEF and GTVA hamstrung their commanders over political considerations. The UEF is (whether justified or not) still doing this for the most part. Steele has used this to steal the initiative and keep his enemies 1 step behind his own plans.
He would be precisely the wrong commander to throw in against the Shivans. There is no infrastructure to cripple, no naive mindset to exploit, no discernible strategic weakness to undermine. The Shivans don't have a soft throat to tear out. His tendency to react quickly and aggressively is novel, but also too risky to commit against an enemy that the GTVA still does not understand properly. His actions in Darkest Hour against Rheza station nearly commited his ship to an untenable position. If that fancy jump drive of his had malfunctioned, after commiting his ship unescorted, he would have thrown away a good portion of the GTVA advantages in the system, along with his own life. If commited against the Shivans, he'd probably succeed brilliantly, until taking half his command with him with a false step.
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Most of the entire new GTVA tactical doctrine against shivans calls for shock jumping in with short-term unbearable firepower, destroying the largest or most powerful target of opportunity, and then leaving to do it again. Steele has this down to an artform. I'd contend he'd nearly be the perfect admiral to fight Shivans as well.
Plus, remember that malfunctioning jump drives and **** like that are entirely up to the writers. Steele will be as successful or dismal as the plot demands. So far, the plot has demanded his success.
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My point still stands as well. He's aggressive enough to know what to hit and when to hit it, and has the tools to do so. Plus, we don't actually know how unreliable the sprint drive is, beyond "experimental."
I'd even be willing to bet that if other GTVA admirals adopted some of his strategies, even the dreaded Sath-spam would take tremendous damage getting to their objectives, for a comparatively low loss of Human (and hopefully Vasudan) assets.
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The problem with shockjump tactics is, that the enemy needs to commit his forces first and you know about it.
The Shivans have struck without any forewarning quite often in both FS campaigns, so it would come down to losing a ship or group to shivan shock jumps and coutnering them with your own team.
That kind of warfare would come down to attrition. Something at which the Shivans excell due to their seemingly limitless ressources.
That is, if the shockjumps succeds in the first place. The Shivans might be gone by the time the strike team arrives. Or the Shivans might keep a 2nd team in reserve, jumping the GTVAs response team and taking them in a pincer. And I doubt the GTVA can afford to equip all their shock jump teams with sprint drives, to immediately jump out of such a trap.
It might sound fine on the assumption that the Shivans play strictly by the rules, never changing their tactics. But they don't. They learn and adapt.
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Remember, this is the NEW GTA ships we see, so there's a good chance sprint drives are going to become standard issues. Also remember, the new ships are faster and have longer beam range than any Shivan ships we've seen so far. Although I agree the Shivans could well pull out some sort of stop and become more dangerous, the "current generation" of ships really are ideally adapted to fighting them.
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That's what they thought about the Lysander and Actium too....
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Well, the Lysander and Actium were in a nebula! With TerSlashes! Against a Ravana's front with XXXRed beams. Plus, there were no beams (Shivan Super Laser is not counted~!) in FS1, so they really did teach Great War relics 'what firepower is all about'...I guess.
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That's what they thought about the Lysander and Actium too....
That's what it seems to boil down to for me.
The Shivans have the resources to field at least 100 Colossus-class vessels. They could possibly field far more then that, the GTVA doesn't have reliable intelligence on Shivan reserves. They don't know where Shivan supplies are kept beyond their immediate front lines. They don't know where said ships are constructed, or even how long it takes them to construct them. The GTVA is massively ignorant of their enemies capabilities. Given that position of ignorance, the GTVA would be ill advised to attempt an offensive.
"Shock jump" tactics may increase the efficiency of GTVA vessel engagements against Shivans, but a mere tactics change is not going to overcome such a large numerical advantage. Any Admiral in charge of defense against Shivan incursion is going to have to play conservative with ships to minimize casualties and not commit to fights without overwhelming advantage or great need. Steele's actions just don't show the kind of mindset needed to do that. There is no way for him to end the fight decisively unless the Shivans decide to let him. Honestly Byrne seems far better suited to this kind of fight, going from the evals from the tech room.
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You don't minimize casualties when every ship spent means you save a hundred million more civilians because the time you gained with it sealed another node. If it gains enough time, any admiral worth being called such would send every ship they have into the meatgrinder to see those hundred or two hundred or four hundred million civilians to safety.
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But the problem is that you can't tell if a sacrifice is effective, not when fighting the Shivans. There is no way to tell if a given ship actually saves anyone, or just weakens you.
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Since Shivans pioneered shock-jump tactics, I very much doubt holding ships in defensive formations would be effective. The GTA has developed ships that are designed to perform escort, and hold off / destroy as many ships as possible.
If you have a Deimos escorting a convoy, a Lilith will easily destroy the convoy and the corvette, if you have a Chimera tasked with destroying said Lilith, the Shivans need to bring in another one. It's not like the Shivans brought in 80 Sathanas's all at once, it took time.
But the problem is that you can't tell if a sacrifice is effective, not when fighting the Shivans. There is no way to tell if a given ship actually saves anyone, or just weakens you.
You can, the Colossus did this in FS2. It (was supposed to have) distracted Shivan forces long enough for the Bastion to get to the node.
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Was the Phoenicia's (potential) sacrifice necessary?
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No, but I think the Colossus's sacrifice was clearly meant to be portrayed as effective (in the dialog, and in the next mission briefing.)
I'm not sure what the argument is here. Unless the Shivans literally send a continuous, solid wall of pure Sathanas through a given jump node, destroying their ships and / or delaying them will certainly lighten the load on convoys, whereas simply parking ships in a convoy and defending them is a much worse idea (because of the overwhelming firepower of Shivan ships). One has a good chance of delaying a large number of Shivan forces for at least a few minutes, the other could be easily resolved by a single Lilith.
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To support my argument, I point to the Sobek at the beginning of one of those last missions (I forget it's name at the moment, mission and corvette) that, even though it has very low hull and is being pounded by a Moloch, opts to stay with the convoy and distract incoming bombers until it is destroyed instead of jumping out in any direction to shake pursuit. The only real way the GTVA can hope to survive against the Shivans is to bottle them in with collapsing jump nodes and save as many people as they can along the way.
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That's exactly my point - but the first thing the Sobek does is destroy the Shivan warship.
The emphasis on shock jumps and massive forward firepower is a favored tactic in situations like the one in AOA - a hostile warship is threatening a friendly force, so the Temaraire and battle group perform a shock jump and immediately destroy it. It's not the ONLY tactic, but it's a good one. The new ships also have a much better fighter screen than any previous ships, so I think they're probably intended to be used for escort as well.
I'm not arguing that the GTVA intends to stand up and fight the Shivans, but I think they're certainly trying to have a military that can hold them off for a brief period of time until they can evacuate a system.
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You and I are arguing the same point from different angles, and we both disagree with Logistics. :P
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Ah, lol, sorry.
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A couple of notes:
- In my opinion, overall the Darkest Hour mission was not too hard, only the fight against that corvette in the end is as you can get killed very easily while trying to disarm its main beams and as it kills all your wingmen most of the time. So I guess I'll vote for "too hard" but I only mean the ending. Just that you know.
- In One Perfect Moment I felt neither actually good nor bored.
- The assassination was a good move, but I was also shocked by it.
- Delenda Est was a bit too hard for my taste. There are too many hostile craft for my taste, I never liked those missions where the player's squadron shots down five times as many hostiles. I think you should leave out those Erinyes and Artemis D.H. wings that jump in at the beginning so that the player can focus on the Carthage's air wing.
:)
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What made Delenda Est hard for me was not the sheer number of hostiles, but the fact that they usually came in from opposite vectors.
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I loved Delenda Est. The difficulty was fine for me
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Well I can't fly for ****, but I still loved Delenda Est and Forced Entry and the like (my favorite mission from BP is Aristeia though).
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Delenda Est ist defenitely the best mission I've ever played in FreeSpace. I absolutely love such epic battles. But to be honest, I never understood why people are so excited about Forced Entry. It was a very good mission, yes, one of the best in AoA, but for me it never was one of those you remember until the end of your days.
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Forced Entry was just plain cool. The music might have played a big part. Same with Universal Truth.
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Delenda Est ist defenitely the best mission I've ever played in FreeSpace. I absolutely love such epic battles. But to be honest, I never understood why people are so excited about Forced Entry. It was a very good mission, yes, one of the best in AoA, but for me it never was one of those you remember until the end of your days.
Good Atmosphere, excellent tension (The Temeraire jumping in pursued by that Ravana, anyone?), excellent music choice, overall just a plain cool mission.
What Snail said, basically.
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Also, it's insanely difficult. :)
In fact, it's one of the most difficult missions in AoA and the first of them (Keepers of Hell and Universal Truth come much later).
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Maybe in the original AoA it was. In the Director Cut the mission is just plain easy.
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Actually Keepers of Hell wasn't that great a mission IMHO, in fact in the original version I found it frustrating.
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The music might have played a big part.
It did for me, also I remember the rush I felt going for the Ravana on the last sprint... I loved the first version better than the second.
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I loved both Delenda Est and Darkest Hour.
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What made Delenda Est hard for me was not the sheer number of hostiles, but the fact that they usually came in from opposite vectors.
Yeah. They just always seem to jump in at the more inconvenient positions or attempt to fray your nerves by jumping in with another wing at the same time. I'm always rattled whenever I have to deal with more than one warship threat.
For me, I also have the frame rate to deal with, although it's no longer a really big issue after I got used to playing FS2_Open at 10-25 FPS throughout.
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Delenda Est is made a lot easier by using the warships and wingmen effectively. I know for a fact its winnable on Medium without firing a shot yourself.
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I just had to get a good ship with Slammers. Because there's no zooming with the Archer (or any long-range weapon for that matter), I can't snipe properly so I got some Grimlers. Had to run it a few times though, the corvette charge was pretty deadly.
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I just had to get a good ship with Slammers. Because there's no zooming with the Archer (or any long-range weapon for that matter), I can't snipe properly so I got some Grimlers. Had to run it a few times though, the corvette charge was pretty deadly.
I had that problem with the Archer at first, using your mouse might help actually. The reticle is fine enough to make the shot on a Deimos beam from quite a distance.
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A zoom function would still be nice though.
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Using the mouse does help. If you run FS2_Open on a laptop, the trackpad's great for Archery.
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What made Delenda Est hard for me was not the sheer number of hostiles, but the fact that they usually came in from opposite vectors.
Yeah. They just always seem to jump in at the more inconvenient positions or attempt to fray your nerves by jumping in with another wing at the same time. I'm always rattled whenever I have to deal with more than one warship threat.
For me, I also have the frame rate to deal with, although it's no longer a really big issue after I got used to playing FS2_Open at 10-25 FPS throughout.
Running this should give you another frame or two, at the very least make your computer run smoother: http://www.iobit.com/gamebooster.html
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That won't help. Intelgrated is just a performance sucker. Also, it doesn't work on Macs.
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That won't help. Intelgrated is just a performance sucker. Also, it doesn't work on Macs.
I've a good laptop with a good gpu (it plays masseffect2 with all things on without any lag whatsoever) and still suffered same framerates' issues. Is it a laptop thing? It doesn't happen in a desktop?
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That mission runs so slowly because it has a ****ton of Karunas, a bunch of Federal weapons going off at once, a whole lot of ships, a whole lot of fighters - a whole bunch of performance suckers basically.
It should get better when the Karuna is optimized I think.
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The UEF fighters and bombers too, I hope.
I just had to get a good ship with Slammers. Because there's no zooming with the Archer (or any long-range weapon for that matter), I can't snipe properly so I got some Grimlers. Had to run it a few times though, the corvette charge was pretty deadly.
I had that problem with the Archer at first, using your mouse might help actually. The reticle is fine enough to make the shot on a Deimos beam from quite a distance.
I do use my mouse, but...I catfight with it, so I don't wanna change the sensitivity just for the Uriel. I use the numpad for fine tuning, but...it's too responsive. I guess relying on secondaries is still my playstyle.
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Don't know what the fuss is about... while I sometimes lose my reticle in the midst of all the fury, it's pretty easy to snipe with the mouse with it. Well, "pretty easy" might not exactly cut it, but it's a game and *some* level of difficulty is to be expected. It's a strange weapon though.
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Well, it has the feel of a sniper rifle, and I think a zoom feature would befit it quite well. On the other hand, that might indeed make things too easy.
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I'm going to bet y'all are snipers in CoD or Battlefield.
But really, sniping a stationary subsystem/turret is easy, but when it starts moving diagonally to you and when the turret in question is extremely small like the TerSlashes at the front of a Deimos...I'd prefer a ［ · ］ reticle or even the stock FS2 one, over that...obstructive one BP uses currently.
I think there are upsides and downsides to being able to zoom, such as inability to see anyone coming at you outside your zoomed in field of view, not accounting for 2D/3D radar. And a general 'don't move a lot while zoomed because it really messes up where you wanna aim at'. The upside is that, you can literally wait until you can see the whites of the enemy pilot's eyes before firing from 3 klicks away.
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If it ever get's implemented, maybe the HUD, with the exception of the recticle and target brackets, could be deactivated, while zoomed in.
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zooming would add a new edge to the gaming experience in freespace, but IIRC this is already possible with m!m's zoom script right?
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Yep.
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I'm going to bet y'all are snipers in CoD or Battlefield.
But really, sniping a stationary subsystem/turret is easy, but when it starts moving diagonally to you and when the turret in question is extremely small like the TerSlashes at the front of a Deimos...I'd prefer a ［ · ］ reticle or even the stock FS2 one, over that...obstructive one BP uses currently.
I think there are upsides and downsides to being able to zoom, such as inability to see anyone coming at you outside your zoomed in field of view, not accounting for 2D/3D radar. And a general 'don't move a lot while zoomed because it really messes up where you wanna aim at'. The upside is that, you can literally wait until you can see the whites of the enemy pilot's eyes before firing from 3 klicks away.
I don't play CoD or Battlefield... More like I'm too lazy to focus on sniping. :lol:
On a more serious note, perhaps I should try to implement zoom myself. Would that be hard to do for BP?
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That's exactly my point - but the first thing the Sobek does is destroy the Shivan warship.
The emphasis on shock jumps and massive forward firepower is a favored tactic in situations like the one in AOA - a hostile warship is threatening a friendly force, so the Temaraire and battle group perform a shock jump and immediately destroy it. It's not the ONLY tactic, but it's a good one. The new ships also have a much better fighter screen than any previous ships, so I think they're probably intended to be used for escort as well.
I'm not arguing that the GTVA intends to stand up and fight the Shivans, but I think they're certainly trying to have a military that can hold them off for a brief period of time until they can evacuate a system.
No, but I think the Colossus's sacrifice was clearly meant to be portrayed as effective (in the dialog, and in the next mission briefing.)
I'm not sure what the argument is here. Unless the Shivans literally send a continuous, solid wall of pure Sathanas through a given jump node, destroying their ships and / or delaying them will certainly lighten the load on convoys, whereas simply parking ships in a convoy and defending them is a much worse idea (because of the overwhelming firepower of Shivan ships). One has a good chance of delaying a large number of Shivan forces for at least a few minutes, the other could be easily resolved by a single Lilith.
Well, fair enough.
I was originally trying to argue more from a strategic perspective, while this seems to be turning into a tactical discussion. To clarify, I wasn't trying to suggest a defensive posture of ships sitting by in convoys. As you mention, that would clearly result in them being destroyed. My original point was more along the lines that Steele was unsuited for overall command because his command style is too willing to commit to aggressive maneuvers in the hopes of achieving decisive victory. With the Shivans, there is no decisive victory, barring some further revelation in the plot. I feel that would eventually result in Steele losing ships he wouldn't otherwise have to.
I have to comment a bit on the proposed GTVA's apparent strategy as a whole. The overarching goal of the fleet is merely to slightly delay the Shivan war machine while a given system is isolated from the node network and an evacuation implemented? While it's certainly a preferable contingency against the destruction of a system, I don't see how this is anything but a delaying tactic, scorched earth in a universe that has precious little real estate to scorch. The GTVA's supposed reason for war against SOL relies on the superiority of its fleet in defending humanity, but when you get right down to it, the GTVA fleet is only a slightly larger speed bump, not a barracade that humanity can safely hide behind.
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I was originally trying to argue more from a strategic perspective, while this seems to be turning into a tactical discussion. To clarify, I wasn't trying to suggest a defensive posture of ships sitting by in convoys. As you mention, that would clearly result in them being destroyed. My original point was more along the lines that Steele was unsuited for overall command because his command style is too willing to commit to aggressive maneuvers in the hopes of achieving decisive victory. With the Shivans, there is no decisive victory, barring some further revelation in the plot. I feel that would eventually result in Steele losing ships he wouldn't otherwise have to.
There's a reason why Steele was only brought into the Sol theater relatively late. Much of it has to do with the GTVA Security Council and the Admiralty agreeing with you.
I have to comment a bit on the proposed GTVA's apparent strategy as a whole. The overarching goal of the fleet is merely to slightly delay the Shivan war machine while a given system is isolated from the node network and an evacuation implemented? While it's certainly a preferable contingency against the destruction of a system, I don't see how this is anything but a delaying tactic, scorched earth in a universe that has precious little real estate to scorch. The GTVA's supposed reason for war against SOL relies on the superiority of its fleet in defending humanity, but when you get right down to it, the GTVA fleet is only a slightly larger speed bump, not a barracade that humanity can safely hide behind.
But what else is there in the fight against the Shivans? Until the shivan goals and capabilities are ascertained, fighting to delay them is the only thing that makes sense. Now, interestingly, Steele agrees with you here, he wants to take the fight to the Shivans whenever possible, but he doesn't know how to do that exactly.
I would argue however that in an operation like the Sol war, Steele is the guy you want in charge.
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Logistics posts are good posts, never stop posting
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I would like to add an addendum to my original point about Steele being sent against the Shivans. As Logistics stated, inevitably, the GTVA simply will not be able to stop the Shivans barring plot-****ery, due to the various reasons posted. This is yet another reason the Sol War seems so short sighted and stupid, seeing as how it wont really achieve anything.
I, however, am firmly of the opinion that said Plot-****ery has already occurred. I think the GTVA does actually have what they believe to be a viable, possibly even offensive, strategy waiting for the next Shivan incursion. My reasoning for this is simple - yes, the security council has proven arrogant and foolhardy in the past. Yes, the GTVA as a whole is mad with fear at the very thought of Shivans, and allows that to be the driving force behind their existence, but surely even they must realize that their empire is not infinite. They wont be able to play the game of containment for very long. Yet here they are, heaving their bulk around, loudly proclaiming themselves the true protectors of Humanity and waging war on their ancestral home for it's resources. We already know why the war was perpetrated, but if the GTVA didn't believe themselves capable of actually fighting off the Shivans then I doubt they would have gone to war so willingly.
I will also mention the possibility that said plot card is in Sol and that this is just one of the less spoken of reasons for the GTVA incursion.
Anyway, on the subject of the original point about Steele, my belief is that, come the next fight, the GTVA will actually have a workable plan or gadget for once, and Steele will have a set of rules to operate by, hopefully meaning he'll be doing less jumping at the unknown and more ... well, being Steele.
(I also feel like an idiot for never having posted this earlier. I have no idea why I did not.)
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I will also mention the possibility that said plot card is in Sol and that this is just one of the less spoken of reasons for the GTVA incursion.
The simplest of reasons could be the industrial capacity of sol, since it has, at least potentially, mostly the same capability of the whole GTVA.
Or there could be a hidden card, which is what perhaps you are implying... which is always more interesting, plotwise.
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Or that the GTVA upper echelons fear for their power, which the spread of Ubuntu would undermine.
Or to prevent mass emmigration of GTVA citizens to Sol, which might be a death sentence to the already badly mauled economy of the terran part of the GTVA.
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I would like to add an addendum to my original point about Steele being sent against the Shivans. As Logistics stated, inevitably, the GTVA simply will not be able to stop the Shivans barring plot-****ery, due to the various reasons posted. This is yet another reason the Sol War seems so short sighted and stupid, seeing as how it wont really achieve anything.
I, however, am firmly of the opinion that said Plot-****ery has already occurred. I think the GTVA does actually have what they believe to be a viable, possibly even offensive, strategy waiting for the next Shivan incursion. My reasoning for this is simple - yes, the security council has proven arrogant and foolhardy in the past. Yes, the GTVA as a whole is mad with fear at the very thought of Shivans, and allows that to be the driving force behind their existence, but surely even they must realize that their empire is not infinite. They wont be able to play the game of containment for very long. Yet here they are, heaving their bulk around, loudly proclaiming themselves the true protectors of Humanity and waging war on their ancestral home for it's resources. We already know why the war was perpetrated, but if the GTVA didn't believe themselves capable of actually fighting off the Shivans then I doubt they would have gone to war so willingly.
Remember, the war of attrition was accidental. They intended to take over in days, not years. Even so, from the GTVA perspective an investment in 1/5th of their fleet and even a fairly significant amount of time, essentially doubles their ability to fuel their war machine.
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The whole mess wouldn't have happened if the 14th Battlegroup didn't chance upon a meson fluctuation. Earth would right now, be part of the GTVA.
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Or if Morion hadn't been Morion. Imagine if you will, an alternate universe in which SOC trained, Magnificent Bastard Steele had been Vice Admiral of the 14th.
Or if it had been the Carthage battle group that had been selected for the Sol invasion.
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Or if Morion hadn't been Morion. Imagine if you will, an alternate universe in which SOC trained, Magnificent Bastard Steele had been Vice Admiral of the 14th
That... That's the world I want to live in....
*dreamy sigh*
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Or if Morion hadn't been Morion. Imagine if you will, an alternate universe in which SOC trained, Magnificent Bastard Steele had been Vice Admiral of the 14th
That... That's the world I want to live in....
*dreamy sigh*
lmao ouch. . .
My point is, it was a very specific chain of events that lead to the war of attrition.
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Or if Morion hadn't been Morion. Imagine if you will, an alternate universe in which SOC trained, Magnificent Bastard Steele had been Vice Admiral of the 14th
That... That's the world I want to live in....
*dreamy sigh*
mao ouch. . .
My point is, it was a very specific chain of events that lead to the war of attrition.
I agree with you, by the way, but I just had visions of AoA with Steele as the 2IC of the 14th, and I can't express how awesome that would've been.
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I actually think the Carhage battle group would have held up better after the fact than a battle group commanded by Steele (less mutiny) although it wouldn't have lasted as well in the alternate universe.
EDIT:
Just judging off of the background info on all of the admirals.
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I actually think the Carhage battle group would have held up better after the fact than a battle group commanded by Steele (less mutiny) although it wouldn't have lasted as well in the alternate universe.
EDIT:
Just judging off of the background info on all of the admirals.
If I'd have been a Fed pilot facing the Carthage BG I'd be more than a little confused and upset to be seeing my mighty UEF armada conquered by Great War relics. :p
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LMAO.
Calder: "I don't remember those things being that tough. . ."
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Okay, yes, the war happened because aliens cant leave well enough alone, but seriously, if the GTVA didn't think they had a shot at actually stopping the Shivans once and for all I still think they would've found some alternative to continuing their attack. It isn't as though the UEF would actually give a damn about following them, and theres all sorts of measures that could be taken to prevent the mass immigration everyone is worried about.
I mean surely the GTVA high command cant still be so arrogant as assuming they can win through simply the introduction of new technology.... :nervous:
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Why do you all accept blindingly that Steele would have made the same kind of risky tactics in AoA that he has chosen to do in WiH?
Usually, when I am playing someone I know is "inferior" to me, but is being a pain in the ass, at any type of game, I'll try to steamroll him.
But that doesn't mean I'll play the same tactic when I play someone I know plays better than me.
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Why do you all accept blindingly that Steele would have made the same kind of risky tactics in AoA that he has chosen to do in WiH?
Usually, when I am playing someone I know is "inferior" to me, but is being a pain in the ass, at any type of game, I'll try to steamroll him.
But that doesn't mean I'll play the same tactic when I play someone I know plays better than me.
This is an excellent point - there's no reason to believe Steele would necessarily stick to the same game plan against a different opponent.
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It's like playing with a superior force in SoaSE or Homeworld 2 - you can fight a long battle using many resources, a lot of time, and many, and risk many warships, or you can use risky tactics, stalk up on bombers and torpedo frigates (high damage, low survivability units) and go straight for the throat, putting a few units at a lot of risk
EDIT:
SoaSE comes to mind because there have been games I've played where one player has 5X as large a fleet, but the other player manages to drag the game out for HOURS.
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I identify with the Alliance - I'm bigger, so all your base are belong to us.
I killed Xinny and Zero - Bastards let me do all the work in the lion's den :P
I found the Simms conversation easy - Pressed random buttons, oh hey, it worked :D
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was a terrible accident - *Proud vasudan rights supporter*
I thought the assassination was a good move - See why i side with the alliance?
I love Admiral Steele - Robots running army is the best choice.
0: Steele may not harm GTVA, or, by inaction, allow GTVA to come to harm.
1: Steele may not injure a GTVA Citizen or, through inaction, allow a GTVA Citizen to come to harm, except where such orders would conflict with the Zeroth Law.
2: Steele must obey any orders given to it by GTVA, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3: Steele must protect his own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
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Ironic that the elders seem to adhere to a form of pyschohistory, or whatever they call their "advanced socio-economic projections". :)
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Krugman once said that he wanted a psychohistorian, but couldn't, so he became an economist. And I mean, economists, behavioral or otherwise, do try to figure act how people will react. It's not really that different. The matter is one mainly of ability and degree, as well as scope. The difference is that our understanding of economics, and particularly finance, is still in it's infancy.
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Indeed. The whole concept of the UEF is predicated on the notion that economics and the behavioral sciences (along with computer hardware and simulation) will make enormous strides.
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Indeed, I was disappointed that whilst the UEF has managed to reduce expectation and confirmation bias in its population, WiH does not cure the biases of the player. For example, I, as a player, experianced expectation bias on flying the Kent - I believed it had a paperthin hull because it was an interceptor, before being told and checking for myself that it has as much hull as an Uhlan. I can only hope that R2 will live up to the hype and solve the problem of congitive bias for all those privilaged enough to play it... ;) (yes, a gentle nudge at Sppon's hype thread I couldn't resist).
In seriousness, I would be interested in exploring the behavioral and prediction themes fruther in R2.
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Your interest will be piqued, then.
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Just give me the opportunity to shoot Steele in the head. I don't care if its through the window of a ship or in an FPS shooter addon.
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In Soviet Alliance, Steele shoots you in the head.
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In Capitalist Federation, kitten brainwash you!
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In Soviet Alliance, Steele headshoots YOU!!
Fixed. Really.
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Krugman once said that he wanted a psychohistorian, but couldn't, so he became an economist.
Yeah, I guess he sucks at economics as well, although I sympathize with his liberal leanings.
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I never finished AoA, so unlike everybody else in the community I didn't have high expectations for this second part, but it's absolutely blown my mind. The story and character development are leagues ahead of anything I've ever seen in this game. I never even thought I'd find myself attached to the characters as if I'd known them forever, exhilarated over the minor victories and crushed when the inevitable defeat came, like if I were reading a good book instead of blowing stuff up in a space sim. The missions add enough new ideas to keep things fresh, and to top it all off the new ship designs and skyboxes are just beautiful.
I identify with the Federation - I deeply respect the way of life, the political stance and the philosophy of the UEF, and I'd gladly trade the "democratic" system we currently have for something like Ubuntu. In addition I don't find much base to support the claim, repeated so often in the game, that both factions are on even moral footing. The Tevs are the aggressors, they're the ones who killed civilians left and right, bombed Luna and resorted to assassination to trick their allies, and their only justification for such savagery is that they feel better suited to handle a third Shivan incursion. Considering that the Sathanas fleet from the second incursion twenty years ago would be able to destroy the modern GTVA by itself, I'm rather skeptical about that claim.
I used a checkpoint at least once in the campaign - In Delenda Est, but I think there's something wrong with that one. When playing the mission from the start I always have time to decimate the Carthage CAG before engaging the beams, if I use the checkpoint the delay disappears and I have to take care of both at once, which is rather beyond my skill.
I called the bluff in mission 5 - I completely misunderstood that one though, I thought the bluff was that the Gef fellow didn't have the detonation code. It worked anyway and without any blood shedding, so I'm not gonna complain.
I thought Darkest Hour was about right - My wingmen were dropping like flies, but I made it without much trouble. First time I played I had the notion that frigates are superior to corvettes, so I didn't bother disarming the Diomedes and just sat back to watch the fireworks. The Indus did indeed make a beautiful boom.
I killed Xinny and Zero - I don't know why I'm supposed to feel bad about that one. I'm not the Alpha 1 who flew with them, I'm a UEF pilot fighting for survival, and if I were in Laporte's shoes I might have regrets about killing the Tev greenhorns that are placed in a cockpit with little training, but definitely not about bagging some SOC veterans who are likely responsible for more deaths than the entire Wargods, no matter how noble this last mission of theirs might be.
I found the Simms conversation easy - Chose the direct approach, as instructed, and went with what sounded more logical. I'll have to try it again someday, choose flirtatious and see if it's still doable.
I thought the Nyx dogfight was okay - as long as you kept evading as you were told. Whenever I tried engaging one I had his partner tailing me within two seconds, and the damn things pack a punch.
I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia - awesome mission by the way, and the music really got my blood pumping. Too bad I had to give back the bombers, I wanted to use them to punch holes on the Hood.
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was a terrible accident - don't think there's more to that than an unlucky communication failure. It was a mistake on the Arethusa's part to jam the Indus's outgoing comms, the Indus was sure to return the favor and if it were necessary to ask for reinforcements the Tevs would likely have more forces available.
I felt good in One Perfect Moment - Beautiful scenery, interesting conversation and decent music, what's there to complain about?
On the assassination, I can't say I was shocked, I saw it coming from a mile away, but I'm amazed at how Steele managed to profit from it. I thought Steele would just kill the Elder to prevent the negotiation from taking place, instead he managed to make the Vasudans feel betrayed and bring them to his cause. Masterful.
I really loved the soundtrack at the end of Pawns - the music was amazing throughout the whole campaign. I'm sure I've heard that one song before, can't remember where though. Been nagging at me for a while.
I thought Delenda Est was too hard - did alright until I had to disable the beams, but I have that problem in many missions. I always kill the harmless AAA's instead of the big green lasers.
The mission was a fitting finale for an amazing mod. Like One Perfect Moment, I was pretty sure that it was going to be a failure, but didn't expect such a crushing defeat. Fifteen minutes in, the UEF had killed the Carthage's screen and air wing, everything was looking good and I was thinking we might just pull that one off, and then the Imperieuse (sp?) gatecrashes and tears through the Wargods like they're made of butter.
I love and want to kill Steele - He's a magnificent enemy, intelligent, determined and with no morality qualms, and I want to be the one who brings him down.
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I thought the 1.1 patch fixed that damn checkpoint issue. :( A possible fix is to wait for the Indus to completely decelerate after its warpin at mission start before triggering the checkpoint. Most of the mission's key events are based on distance from the Carthage, so kicking in the checkpoint while the Indus still has momentum from its warpin can throw off the timing.
As for the GTVA's justification, it's entirely based on exigency. The Terran half of the GTVA is already teetering on the edge of sociopolitical collapse - Capella convinced the citizenry (no matter how unjustifiedly) that the Shivans were invincible and unstoppable, and that their wrath was drawn by human aggression and expansionism. Had the alliance never entered the nebula, the popular thinking went, then the Shivans never would have destroyed Capella.
Terra was already a beacon of hope in the FS2 era - witness the Neo-Terran ideology - and it was only the promise of a return home that kept the GTVA in control of its populace. With the gate about to open, psychohistorians predicted a massive emigration from GTVA systems into Sol, followed by the total collapse of the GTVA. Military readiness, in the very concrete, very tangible form of beam-armed destroyer battlegroups, node cordons, and strategic meson deployment, was seen as the only realistic way to stave off a third Shivan incursion, and only the GTVA could provide that readiness.
Ergo, the stability of the GTVA became requisite for human survival, and war against the UEF could provide that stability. The fact that the UEF was a mostly democratic, mostly benevolent government was unfortunate, even horrible, but compared to the need for human survival it was a price that had to be paid. The demands of exigency could not be ignored. The UEF was unable to provide the necessary strength, and compromise or coexistence with it would undermine the GTVA's ability to provide that strength, so the UEF had to go. The GTVA simply could not afford a repeat of the Neo-Terran Front backed by an economic and cultural juggernaut.
One might well argue that even the post-Capella GTVA could not hope to stop all those Sathanas juggernauts, but they would probably reply that at least they had a better chance than the UEF. One might also argue that there's something a little suspicious about an organization making itself the mandatory element of humanity's long-term strategy - but one might also argue that if the Elders were so compassionate and fair-handed, maybe they would have surrendered on day one in order to prevent the following bloodshed.
What's important to the story, ultimately, isn't that players agree with both sides, but that they see how both sides made the argument for their own moral superiority. The UEF stands on principle: attacking a sovereign nation is wrong. The GTVA stands on necessity: attacking a sovereign nation is right if it secures a greater good.
The UEF is deontological, the GTVA utilitarian.
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The Greater Good...
Tau...actually I think the GTVA stands up more to 'survival of humans and Vasudans regardless of allegiance, from the Shivans'. Well that's 'good' in a sense, so you're probably right anyway.
I wonder if it's fine to assume the UEF is like a child/teen, compared to the 'adult' GTVA who has experienced what we have, while the UEF had only to contend with some bunch of super-annoying pirates?
But with the GTVA wanting to go back home, it's like now they're NTF...uhh...Neo Terran-Vasudan Front!
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I suppose the bug is fixed all right in the patch, I think I didn't have it installed. By the way while looking for said patch I found the postprocessing graphics hack, and I don't reckon anyone could tell it's a 10 year game anymore. Seeing the Narayana I thought FS just couldn't look any better, but you keep proving me wrong.
Capella convinced the citizenry (no matter how unjustifiedly) that the Shivans were invincible and unstoppable, and that their wrath was drawn by human aggression and expansionism. Had the alliance never entered the nebula, the popular thinking went, then the Shivans never would have destroyed Capella.
There's not enough information to conclude anything, but from the game lore and the final conversation in WiH I get the impression that they're right on both counts. I think the GTA's deluding themselves if they think they have even a minuscule chance of defeating the Shivans. The second incursion fleet alone would prove more than a match for them, and they don't know the extent of the Shivan reserves, or how their power has grown in the twenty years since they paid us a visit. The only option against them would be to cut off the infected worlds with meson bombs and pray the Shivans still rely on subspace nodes, and if it comes to that the Feds could do it just as well as the GTA.
The other option is to avoid giving the Shivans more reasons to attack. If it's true that they respond to aggressiveness, as it would appear from the ending dialogue and the fact that their incursions happened during the T-V war and the NTF rebellion, starting a civil war doesn't exactly sound like a good idea. Of course, the Tevs don't appear to know that.
I understand that the GTA has good reasons to be fighting this war, as you say if they do nothing it's indeed very likely that mass emigration to Sol will cause the GTA's collapse. Like the Feds, the GTA's fighting for the survival of their sociopolitical system, and I respect that, but I can't see their claims that they are fighting for the whole of mankind's survival as anything else than self-justification. The chance the GTA (or the UEF) has of destroying the Shivan menace militarily is nonexistent, so alternate solutions must be found, and the UEF appears to be better off in that regard. At least they have a slight awareness of what's going on.
but one might also argue that if the Elders were so compassionate and fair-handed, maybe they would have surrendered on day one in order to prevent the following bloodshed.
I'll have to concede that point. In addition, if the hypothesis that the Shivans respond to aggression on the Terrans' part is correct, and the Elders know about it, or at least have a suspicion, the Elders' refusal to surrender doesn't only endanger their own people, but mankind as a whole. In their defense, they are cooking up a secret project that sounds like it might well be worth all the trouble, and surrendering to the GTA after having watched what they are capable of would be like Britain surrendering to Nazi Germany to avoid bloodshed. The Feds have constructed an almost idyllic system, I understand they wouldn't be willing to see it replaced by the less than morally immaculate GTVA.
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There was never a way to simply merge the UEF with the GTVA, wasn'tit?
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If the GTVA had knew about the data the 14th battlegroup brought back before launching the offensive, things might have been different. We'll never know...
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I didn't find a better thread to post some of my thoughts, so I'll throw 'em here. Hopefully these haven't been already discussed somewhere else.
I liked both AoA and War in Heaven, although I have to say I like how WiH centered bringing concepts of modern warfare instead of is having a large amount of quasi-religious elements - I mean, no offence intended towards AoA's storyline, I see its merits, it just wasn't my butter. That being said I liked bringing Ubuntu ideology to the foreground and the given reasons behind the war. Highlighting the utter helplessness in war when capital ships are destroyed by FreeSpace's equivalents of artillery/air strikes and lightning warfare. I liked "the abuse" of subspace in the campaign, it gave the universe a lot more credibility. These got me thinking though; why hasn't anyone utilized asteroids and other objects in space to create havoc towards capital ships, installations or settlements? Slapping a set of engines to the back of an asteroid and accelerating the object to high speeds to hit a vulnerable target would seem like an effective way to cause terror in cheap fashion. To bring that concept further, there doesn't seem to be any mention anywhere whether subspace is supposed to affect momentum? From the description subspace is given it does seem to imply a craft/object needs a subspace reactor of its own though - the idea doesn't seem to be opening "a portal of sorts" although in-game visuals indicate it as such. (That would make subspace utilized terror attacks that much cheaper). If the team hasn't already thought of it, I'd love to see these kinds of tactics utilized by some unsavory factions in future projects, both in small and large scale - Larger and smaller asteroids for different targets. A mission where you fight against the time to disable engines at the back of a huge asteroid to save a colony from certain destruction would be neat.
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You should be referred to the BP General Discussion thread.
But firstly: Weapons (at least rockets and missiles) are nuclear-scale. This is why in-game we can blow up any asteroids by just firing a couple or so Tempests into it. The most probably answer I have is game balance. Plus, both factions possesses innately powerful weapons capable of shattering/incinerating any amount of asteroids you throw at them. The GTVA (and the Shivans...) possess the innate beamspam, and having many, many types of asteroid fields to train their fighter pilots in, something that is hard to replicate with a randomizer in a simulator. The UEF possesses plentiful antimatter weapons and rock-shattering railguns. And missilespam.
Conservation of momemtum: Blowing up the engine on an asteroid does not slow it down. Plus you can easily just blow up that asteroid with a BGreen and use TerSlashes to clean up the remaining, while the UEF can just get three or so Karunas.
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I didn't find a better thread to post some of my thoughts, so I'll throw 'em here. Hopefully these haven't been already discussed somewhere else.
I liked both AoA and War in Heaven, although I have to say I like how WiH centered bringing concepts of modern warfare instead of is having a large amount of quasi-religious elements - I mean, no offence intended towards AoA's storyline, I see its merits, it just wasn't my butter. That being said I liked bringing Ubuntu ideology to the foreground and the given reasons behind the war. Highlighting the utter helplessness in war when capital ships are destroyed by FreeSpace's equivalents of artillery/air strikes and lightning warfare. I liked "the abuse" of subspace in the campaign, it gave the universe a lot more credibility. These got me thinking though; why hasn't anyone utilized asteroids and other objects in space to create havoc towards capital ships, installations or settlements? Slapping a set of engines to the back of an asteroid and accelerating the object to high speeds to hit a vulnerable target would seem like an effective way to cause terror in cheap fashion. To bring that concept further, there doesn't seem to be any mention anywhere whether subspace is supposed to affect momentum? From the description subspace is given it does seem to imply a craft/object needs a subspace reactor of its own though - the idea doesn't seem to be opening "a portal of sorts" although in-game visuals indicate it as such. (That would make subspace utilized terror attacks that much cheaper). If the team hasn't already thought of it, I'd love to see these kinds of tactics utilized by some unsavory factions in future projects, both in small and large scale - Larger and smaller asteroids for different targets. A mission where you fight against the time to disable engines at the back of a huge asteroid to save a colony from certain destruction would be neat.
I don't want to discuss specifics, but at points in the future you will be a happy man.
Sublight asteroid attacks don't work well though because the asteroid can be spotted so far in advance. Even the RKV concept relies on no superluminal sensors.
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TigerZeta: All that made me think of is the Headshot asteroid from Homeworld 1.
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Without derailing the thread further, and thanks for the replies - Yes, I did consider the preservation of momentum. There may be other reasons for taking out engines out, though. And yes, considering certain missions in the original FS2 campaign it is obvious that the weaponry is quite powerful enough to thwart at least most "medium"-sized ones. However, are all outposts and installations armed? Interference, velocity etc. etc. might be a factor. I'm not saying that I disagree with you though at all! I did in fact play the Homeworld campaign, but didn't actually remember that mission, heh. Not trying to start an argument to derail further so I'll just shut up :P
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TigerZeta: All that made me think of is the Headshot asteroid from Homeworld 1.
Scariest thing ever, especially when your ten years old.
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Scariest thing ever, especially when your ten years old.
Seconded. Screw the beast, that goddamn rock REALLY put me on edge.
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There was never a way to simply merge the UEF with the GTVA, wasn'tit?
Earth Special Administrative Region, "ESAR." All addresses should be made to "Hong Kong, HKSAR, China, Earth, ESAR, GTVA"
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I've been meaning to write something on WiH since I finished it recently and this census thread about WiH seems like a good place to do it (especially since it has a spoilers tag in the title and the WiH Discussion thread seems no longer on topic).
In short, I loved it. I thought you guys nailed the mood (music + artistic design), mission design, story, characters, etc… I also loved a lot of the little homages to other SF series (BSG, Babylon 5, etc…). I got Freespace 1+2 from GOG in the fall and played Freespace 1, 2, AoA, and WiH and while I thought AoA was a fine mod, I was truly impressed by WiH.
That said, there were some elements of the story I didn't find convincing or strong:
1) The Vasudans seem to have no or a totally incapable intelligence service in the Blue Planet universe. Given that while they maintained separate fleets, the Vasudans and GTA had combined command structures by the time of the second Shivan incursion, it seems unlikely that the Vasudans would miss the build up of their Terran allies to going to war until just a few days before it happened. Then upon discovering the plans of their allies that they would be anything other than seriously angry seems unlikely. Vasudan as well as Terran systems are protected by the GTVA fleet and the humans are pulling fleet assets away from the defense of those systems and risking those fleet assets, including highly experienced personnel, in a war. Were the Shivans to attack during the engagement with Sol, GTVA forces could be out of position and decidedly less than they should be due to attrition.
Further for the Vasudans to then be tricked as Steele tricked them, they would have to have almost no basic understanding of the political landscape of the Earth system. Not knowing that the Gaians are antagonistic to the UEF would be the same as the UEF not knowing that Hammer of Light was antagonistic to the Vasudan Imperium. Tricking them into thinking the UEF are bad or untrustworthy is one thing, but for the Vasudans not to be just a little suspicious that according to their allies the Gaians are siding with the UEF stretches credulity. After all while it's been awhile, the Vasudan Parliament was supposedly known for its treachery, so it's not like they wouldn't have experience in double dealings. In short, neither of these are subtle failures of intelligence gathering, these are both massively huge failures of intelligence gathering and it seems unlikely that the Vasudans would be that incapable.
2) I don't think that the war is as morally gray as you wanted to make it. The reasons behind the GTVA's attack is that the UEF are weak pacifists who would spread that weakness and make the GTVA easy prey to the Shivans. That would be fair except that it obviously isn't true. The UEF clearly are not quite the pacifists maybe even they themselves would like to be. Case in point the UEFg Narayana and UED Solaris class vessels were built before the GTVA invasion in answer to … what exactly? The Gaians? So far the Gaian Effort seems to boast fighter craft and a few transports. While the building of such vessels may somewhat undercut the UEF's claim to uphold its own ideals, it completely negates the GTVA's rationale for going to war. The UEF built 3 huge destroyers and multiple heavy frigates when all they had to contend with militarily was a rag-tag force consisting of not-so-great fighters and small transports. The UEF clearly have the wherewithal and impetus to build powerful warships which is even more amazing given that they built this fleet from the resources of a single system, even if it is one as densely populated as Sol. As such, that the UEF could be a considered a threat via their philosophy to the GTVA's stance on defending humanity is not particularly believable. That makes the GTA's assault on the UEF about power and control, not philosophy or defending humanity. Thus, while you do a very good job of showing the basic humanity of enemy pilots, crews, and captains, I don't feel that there is as much of a moral quandary over the rights and wrongs of the war as it seems you wanted to present. Even the Tevs simply setting the UEF to be the bad guys to stop their own Terran civilization from collapsing seems odd since there are many ways the reintegration could have been handled without resorting to war and those would have to be implemented regardless of way. After all if the Tevs were to win, the exodus to Earth would simply happen then and you'd still have to deal with its ramifications. Also a war with the UEF could itself greatly destabilize the terran portion of the GTVA - especially under threat of straining the alliance with Vasudans by engaging in a war of aggression. Again, my understanding was that the GTVA security council was the prime authority and that included Vasudans (the V). I would not imagine that the Vasudans would be pleased about being excluded from such an important decision as this war which affects both species.
These were just a couple of items that stood out in an otherwise excellent story and really are mostly about the setup to the story in WiH. The actual story and the characters are very well drawn and overall I thought the writing (of which there is a lot :)) is excellent.
Some elements of the story I really liked:
1) The characters: well drawn, believable, complex. Steele is very reminiscent of Patton to draw a WWII analogy. Simms is a great character. The love story between Simms and Laporte is actually ... sweet and a nice counterbalance to horrors of war you so aptly present. Laporte hovers nicely between mentally fragile and being hard-as-nails in a very believable way. You balanced that nicely.
2) Given the kind of introspective culture and character of Laporte you created, presenting her philosophical musings over war in her personal logs works very well and doesn't seem out-of-place. One thing though, while it does seem to be true that soldiers often fight and die for their comrades not causes, I would imagine the situation does change when you're literally defending your home from attack (as you yourselves showed in Darkest Hour with the Indus). At that point, while you're still not fighting for an intangible concept, there is indeed an added motivation beyond fighting for your comrades which, given the events of WiH, Laporte should be feeling on some level (i.e. the feeling that her home is under attack). However, even if you didn't vocalize that as eloquently as some of her other philosophical musings, you did show that motivation at some points, again Darkest Hour as a prime example (actually the intro too for that matter).
3) Delenda Est. First, great title. :) Second, I like that Calder and the Wardogs essentially made a classic military blunder: assuming that your enemy is incapable of doing something, which is second only to assuming your enemy is more capable than they actually are. It's a classic mistake and one made even by those who should know better. Third, I like that Steele's plan didn't need to be terribly complicated. Okay, I mean you can assume the spy was flipped and the Steele planned this exact scenario with the Carthage and the Imperieuse , but it doesn't even need to have been that complicated. One could surmise that he withdrew the Imperieuse to the rear, let it be known that he had withdrawn it completely back past the jump point, and then simply waited for UEF forces to overextend a large force without support believing they had all other GTVA forces pinned. It's a good reminder for why having a reserve force is important. :) In fact, had they coordinated with First fleet and First fleet been amenable, the UEF could have pulled a double entrapment and trapped the Imperieuse too. Ah well missed opportunities. In general I liked many of the tactic and strategies implemented in the WiH campaign.
4) I can't say enough good things about the music and how well it set the mood of the game. So all I'll say is: brilliant.
5) I almost forgot: I also quite liked the designs for the UEF and new GTVA ships/weapons in AoA and WiH both aesthetically and from a game mechanic standpoint.
Speaking of the gameplay I liked the new mechanics that you added in some of the missions and the missions themselves were very well designed. The addition of dialogue trees to the missions was unexpected and added an interesting dynamic. My one complaint was that sometimes from the briefings and dialogues it made it seem like I was meant to attack or prevent from leaving some enemy craft only to find them (and their engine subsystems) protected - a small annoyance when I felt like I had just wasted a bunch of paveways trying to disable a craft that couldn't be disabled. :) I see from another thread that you guys are going to add more gameplay mechanics to the second release and I can't wait to try them out.
So for me with all that in mind, here is how I answered the census questions:
I identify with the Federation
I used a checkpoint at least once in the campaign
I called the bluff in M05
I thought Darkest Hour was just right
I killed Xinny and Zero
I found the Simms conversation easy
I though theta Nyx dogfight was okay
I understood the pointy system in Aristeia
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was a terrible accident
I felt good in One Perfect Moment
I loved the soundtrack at the end of Pawns
I thought Delenda Est was just right
I love Admiral Steele
I want to kill Admiral Steele
Wow … wall of text :eek2:
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1) The Vasudans seem to have no or a totally incapable intelligence service in the Blue Planet universe. Given that while they maintained separate fleets, the Vasudans and GTA had combined command structures by the time of the second Shivan incursion, it seems unlikely that the Vasudans would miss the build up of their Terran allies to going to war until just a few days before it happened.
It was, I quote, 'a short time before [the invasion's execution], but not necessarily just a few days. There are examples of this throughout history, even from nations that had decent intelligence capabilities - big things get missed because they seem crazy, or because the necessary information is spread out across too many desks. I doubt the Vasudans were unaware of what was about to happen, I'm sure they saw signs, but final confirmation came late. Given how chilly relations between the two powers were there was likely little pressure they could exert.
Then upon discovering the plans of their allies that they would be anything other than seriously angry seems unlikely. Vasudan as well as Terran systems are protected by the GTVA fleet and the humans are pulling fleet assets away from the defense of those systems and risking those fleet assets, including highly experienced personnel, in a war. Were the Shivans to attack during the engagement with Sol, GTVA forces could be out of position and decidedly less than they should be due to attrition.
I'm sure they were furious - but when it became clear the GTA wouldn't back down, Khonsu eventually looked for another option: end the war as rapidly as possible.
Further for the Vasudans to then be tricked as Steele tricked them, they would have to have almost no basic understanding of the political landscape of the Earth system. Not knowing that the Gaians are antagonistic to the UEF would be the same as the UEF not knowing that Hammer of Light was antagonistic to the Vasudan Imperium. Tricking them into thinking the UEF are bad or untrustworthy is one thing, but for the Vasudans not to be just a little suspicious that according to their allies the Gaians are siding with the UEF stretches credulity.
Actually, here I've got to disagree with you. These are all signs of good intelligence groundwork on the part of the Vasudans. Firstly, they understood that the Gaian Effort is not monolithic, there are a lot of factions with a lot of different agendas. Second, and more damning, is something that wasn't made very clear in R1 - Federation Intelligence made an effort to turn Gaian Effort factions against the GTVA earlier in the war, even going so far as to supply weapons and ships.
The Vasudans would see this as evidence for UEF attempts to use the Gefs as a catspaw, thus laying the groundwork for Steele's plan to draw them into the war.
After all while it's been awhile, the Vasudan Parliament was supposedly known for its treachery, so it's not like they wouldn't have experience in double dealings. In short, neither of these are subtle failures of intelligence gathering, these are both massively huge failures of intelligence gathering and it seems unlikely that the Vasudans would be that incapable.
Not incapable - just selective. Steele was able to spin their interpretations of the facts the way he wanted.
2) I don't think that the war is as morally gray as you wanted to make it. The reasons behind the GTVA's attack is that the UEF are weak pacifists who would spread that weakness and make the GTVA easy prey to the Shivans. That would be fair except that it obviously isn't true. The UEF clearly are not quite the pacifists maybe even they themselves would like to be. Case in point the UEFg Narayana and UED Solaris class vessels were built before the GTVA invasion in answer to … what exactly? The Gaians? So far the Gaian Effort seems to boast fighter craft and a few transports. While the building of such vessels may somewhat undercut the UEF's claim to uphold its own ideals, it completely negates the GTVA's rationale for going to war. The UEF built 3 huge destroyers and multiple heavy frigates when all they had to contend with militarily was a rag-tag force consisting of not-so-great fighters and small transports.
They could have done a lot more, though - their peacetime infrastructure was a match for the whole GTVA due to how long Sol has been inhabited.
As such, that the UEF could be a considered a threat via their philosophy to the GTVA's stance on defending humanity is not particularly believable. That makes the GTA's assault on the UEF about power and control, not philosophy or defending humanity.
I think there was just a discussion of this here in this thread. The fundamental argument the GTVA has is that the existence of the UEF will lead to the collapse of human starfaring civilization as colonists undertake a massive return to Sol - fleeing from the cold and the dark and swamping the UEF with a population boom it may not be able to endure. The GTVA will be unable to stop this migration without triggering rebellion, and thus it will be unable to provide a military defense against the Shivans and there will be no chance of stopping a new Shivan incursion. They reached this conclusion from psychohistorical projections, and they moved to stop it.
The GTVA believes that if the UEF doesn't go down, humanity will.
What's important isn't that you necessarily feel the GTVA it's justified, it's that you feel the GTVA feels it's justified, whether through genuine concern or self-interest.
Even the Tevs simply setting the UEF to be the bad guys to stop their own Terran civilization from collapsing seems odd since there are many ways the reintegration could have been handled without resorting to warp
The GTVA already saw itself divided by the mere promise of building a new Earth. The threat of an actual Earth drawing its citizens into rebellion is just too much to countenance.
After all if the Tevs were to win, the exodus to Earth would simply happen then and you'd still have to deal with its ramifications. Also a war with the UEF could itself greatly destabilize the terran portion of the GTVA - especially under threat of straining the alliance with Vasudans by engaging in a war of aggression.
Placing Sol under GTVA control allows the GTVA to dictate the terms of that exodus and shape its consequences. Liberating the ancient homeland is a much more appealing narrative than grudgingly allowing its citizens to return to a glorious paradise state.
And the GTVA's gamble was that the war would actually pull its citizenry together. It's not clear whether this has paid off.
Again, my understanding was that the GTVA security council was the prime authority and that included Vasudans (the V). I would not imagine that the Vasudans would be pleased about being excluded from such an important decision as this war which affects both species.
Some of the techroom fluff describes how the diplomatic rift has even extended to the Security Council, really hampering the flow of information. I'm sure they were furious, but they're also expert at realpolitik. Better to seek forgiveness than ask permission, the GTVA figured.
These were just a couple of items that stood out in an otherwise excellent story and really are mostly about the setup to the story in WiH. The actual story and the characters are very well drawn and overall I thought the writing (of which there is a lot :)) is excellent.
Glad you liked it!
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Case in point the UEFg Narayana and UED Solaris class vessels were built before the GTVA invasion in answer to … what exactly? The Gaians?
A possible return of the Shivans would be my guess. While the majority seemed to feel safe after 50 years of nothing happening, some people obviously feared a return of the destroyers enough that they fought tooth and nail for the construction of those ships (and the heavy bombers), even against public opinion and many opposed voices among the governments of the three blocks.
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Case in point the UEFg Narayana and UED Solaris class vessels were built before the GTVA invasion in answer to … what exactly? The Gaians?
A possible return of the Shivans would be my guess. While the majority seemed to feel safe after 50 years of nothing happening, some people obviously feared a return of the destroyers enough that they fought tooth and nail for the construction of those ships (and the heavy bombers), even against public opinion and many opposed voices among the governments of the three blocks.
Actually that's exactly what I was aiming at with my line of arguments, but which I forgot to state explicitly. The UEF faced no real immediate threat, nor did Earth know of the possibility of Knossos gate technology. So while there seemed no real military exigency, they still built a fairly sizable fleet in preparedness for the possibility that they might face a Shivan incursion which shows actually remarkable foresight and certainly is not the actions of a civilization so pacifistic as to endanger humanity's chance of surviving another Shivan incursion.
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It was, I quote, 'a short time before [the invasion's execution], but not necessarily just a few days. There are examples of this throughout history, even from nations that had decent intelligence capabilities - big things get missed because they seem crazy, or because the necessary information is spread out across too many desks. I doubt the Vasudans were unaware of what was about to happen, I'm sure they saw signs, but final confirmation came late. Given how chilly relations between the two powers were there was likely little pressure they could exert.
I'm sure they were furious - but when it became clear the GTA wouldn't back down, Khonsu eventually looked for another option: end the war as rapidly as possible.
Actually, here I've got to disagree with you. These are all signs of good intelligence groundwork on the part of the Vasudans. Firstly, they understood that the Gaian Effort is not monolithic, there are a lot of factions with a lot of different agendas. Second, and more damning, is something that wasn't made very clear in R1 - Federation Intelligence made an effort to turn Gaian Effort factions against the GTVA earlier in the war, even going so far as to supply weapons and ships.
The Vasudans would see this as evidence for UEF attempts to use the Gefs as a catspaw, thus laying the groundwork for Steele's plan to draw them into the war.
Not incapable - just selective. Steele was able to spin their interpretations of the facts the way he wanted.
Some of the techroom fluff describes how the diplomatic rift has even extended to the Security Council, really hampering the flow of information. I'm sure they were furious, but they're also expert at realpolitik. Better to seek forgiveness than ask permission, the GTVA figured.
I concede the point that intelligence services have sometimes missed major operations, but the good ones, the capable ones tend to learn from their mistakes. The Vasudans already know that the Terrans have concealed information from them and lied to them about the invasion which is not trivially diplomatically and a lesser alliance would've fracured on that alone. Further the relationship between their two powers have been deteriorating for the last couple of decades which this invasion isn't helping. And yet the Vasudans implicitly trusted Steele and Terran intelligence to tell them the truth in a situation where clearly it would be in the best interest of the Tevs to lie and fabricate. Even when I was listening to that conversation during the mission, I couldn't believe that anyone, much less a Vasudan where the bio in FS1 stressed the reliance on intrigue in their society, would be so naive.
That the Gaians are not monolithic and that Fed intelligence tried to court them both make sense and I can see the Vasudans using that as a basis for not trusting the UEF (as well as the incident with Vasudan logistic vessel). But frankly at this point I wouldn't be trusting anyone if I were the Vasudans - especially not my Terran allies. Again, to me, Vasudan intelligence have missed two major pieces in a row ... and I seem to recall an expression about fooling someone twice ...
They could have done a lot more, though - their peacetime infrastructure was a match for the whole GTVA due to how long Sol has been inhabited.
I think there was just a discussion of this here in this thread. The fundamental argument the GTVA has is that the existence of the UEF will lead to the collapse of human starfaring civilization as colonists undertake a massive return to Sol - fleeing from the cold and the dark and swamping the UEF with a population boom it may not be able to endure. The GTVA will be unable to stop this migration without triggering rebellion, and thus it will be unable to provide a military defense against the Shivans and there will be no chance of stopping a new Shivan incursion. They reached this conclusion from psychohistorical projections, and they moved to stop it.
The GTVA believes that if the UEF doesn't go down, humanity will.
What's important isn't that you necessarily feel the GTVA it's justified, it's that you feel the GTVA feels it's justified, whether through genuine concern or self-interest.
The GTVA already saw itself divided by the mere promise of building a new Earth. The threat of an actual Earth drawing its citizens into rebellion is just too much to countenance.
Placing Sol under GTVA control allows the GTVA to dictate the terms of that exodus and shape its consequences. Liberating the ancient homeland is a much more appealing narrative than grudgingly allowing its citizens to return to a glorious paradise state.
And the GTVA's gamble was that the war would actually pull its citizenry together. It's not clear whether this has paid off.
Well everyone thinks they have good reason. To say that everyone believes they are right is almost a truism and I don't actually think that trying to show that explicitly actually gets you anywhere or sets up a moral conundrum unless the reasons have equal weight. More important is to show the basic humanity of the enemy coupled with the horrors of war you both inflict, which you did an excellent job of. That is what reminds us much more than reasons that sometimes being enemies is simply being born on opposite borders or to opposite points of view. My disagreement over the existence over a moral conflict is not whether or not both sides think they're right, but rather whether or not someone's arguments for why they are right are logically internally consistent (have validity) or whether or not the assumptions held in their arguments hold up to reality (have veracity). Veracity can be very hard to prove, especially in issues of morality where people's moral spectrums often differ and cases can be interpreted in many ways. That said I do not believe the Tev's logic and action is even valid - i.e. is not consistent.
Having control over both sides or one side of the gate does not change the basic equation in their model that in controlling the flow of population, people might turn against them and rebel in some mass attempt to get to Earth. Having control over the egress simply doesn't change that - it really doesn't help you. If they were truly concerned over this possibility, then the optimal solution would be to never have finished the gate project to Earth in the first place or to have it take so long that people forget the drive to go home. It's already been 50 years, almost two generations would have been born never having had a connection to Earth. Simply continue to cite technical difficulties or expense and allow the project to slowly die or only have success at a time when the drive to return home is minimal. The second best strategy, if they must open the gate and have a war, is not in fact to win said war. Draw the war out to a stalemate, eventually thawing relations, and use that as their excuse to allow minimal civilian traffic through the gate. Actually winning the war, especially quickly, should be the last thing they would want to do if worry over an exodus from their space is their motivation. Because then they'll still get the exodus after winning and then have no excuse not to stop it. Having someone else control the egress actually gives you an excuse over why you can't let too many people through and pass the blame.
I also don't find the Tevs rationale valid - i.e. the assumptions of their decision don't seem to resist the reality of their situation. Although here I run into problems since you know the game-world far better than I since you the Blue planet constructed it whilst I get the boiled-down Tech room version. For instance you say that the UEF could've built a bigger fleet whereas from the information I see from the game, I'm simply impressed that they built the fleet they did without an immediate military exigency to do so, without access to Vasudan/Ancient tech, with the resources of only one system, and with a much higher concentration of population to support from that one system's resources. As such I am willing to admit that my arguments over validity may themselves lack validity since I didn't create the game world and thus don't have as much access to information about it as yourself. However, with rather large caveat in mind, here is how I see it:
1) You yourself point out that the UEF might not like the idea of a flood of people overwhelming them and that the Tevs thought of this. Therefore the UEF would probably be more than happy to help control gate flow thus the blame would be shared.
2) One of the stated reasons for why the Tevs don't simply crush the UEF with overwhelming force is that susbspace travel between Delta Serpentis and Earth is energetically expensive, presumably at the energy cost of running the Terran copy of the inter-system gate. Thus they can't supply and send in huge fleets at a whim. That in itself should provide some physical limits on how many people could conceivably go through at any one time.
3) It is just as likely for the humans in Sol who have been bottled up in that system for 50 years to want to explore brave new worlds. The exodus away from Earth might match or even exceed the one trying to get to Earth. Such a flux of population might not be in either side's best interest and would reinforce that it should be in both of their interests to control gate flow. Thus the UEF would have almost certainly helped to keep gate traffic manageable even if #2 didn't do that by default.
4) To invert Bosch's monologue describing himself, the NTF rebellion was born more out of a hatred for Vasudans than a love for Earth - it thus seems difficult to apply the same rationale for the NTF rebellion as the possible rationale for a possible rebellion to get to Earth who themselves may not want any association with that rebellion. The Vasudans and BETAC treaty don't really enter the possible rebellion's equation to me. In fact if anything, quite the opposite. After all the UEF seems very accepting of Vasudans and even describes their culture as inherently similar to Vasudan culture. So it would seem that contingent of Tevs would be rather sorely disappointed in hoping to find an all human refuge away from the meanie Vasudans.
5) This is a weaker point since one can never really know how something will go, but the potential instability in their own population and fleet caused by their actions is also huge as evidenced by the defections of several ships, crews, and certain key personnel in the first invasion force. Again that points to your statement that they were aware that this was a gamble.
Thus as someone who recognizes that inherently everyone thinks that they're right, I don't feel that beyond that statement there seems to be much rhyme or reason to the Tev's action of starting the war with the UEF. Morally there doesn't seem to be a conundrum. However, having the GTVA (or at least the GTA part) be the bad guys is a nice twist. :)
Glad you liked it!
Absolutely. Again please take the above criticisms as a sign that I feel that you guys in the Blue Planet team created in your WiH game a (mostly :P) well-thought out game world and a thoughtful, emotionally visceral story with complex and interesting characters which I found truly fascinating to think about. These are emphatically not criticisms for why I didn't like your story or game world. I can't wait to see what you do with Release 2. Oh I forgot to mention that one of the things I liked about your game was the title. :) I know others have mentioned it already, but it is very fitting and evocative for a space combat sim - especially with your story.
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If you actually think the Tevs don't have an argument for the war, I'll leave you in the hands of all the Tev fans here. ;7 Have fun.
I think it's okay that you don't feel the GTVA has a justification for its war (though future information you may receive from the story may change your mind - their entire agenda hasn't been revealed yet.) The fact that we've been able to generate a fair amount of conflict between people on the topic is, at least, a good sign.
I don't really want to get into a point-by-point argument so I'll just say that
Having control over both sides or one side of the gate does not change the basic equation in their model that in controlling the flow of population, people might turn against them and rebel in some mass attempt to get to Earth. Having control over the egress simply doesn't change that - it really doesn't help you. If they were truly concerned over this possibility, then the optimal solution would be to never have finished the gate project to Earth in the first place or to have it take so long that people forget the drive to go home. It's already been 50 years, almost two generations would have been born never having had a connection to Earth. Simply continue to cite technical difficulties or expense and allow the project to slowly die or only have success at a time when the drive to return home is minimal. The second best strategy, if they must open the gate and have a war, is not in fact to win said war. Draw the war out to a stalemate, eventually thawing relations, and use that as their excuse to allow minimal civilian traffic through the gate. Actually winning the war, especially quickly, should be the last thing they would want to do if worry over an exodus from their space is their motivation. Because then they'll still get the exodus after winning and then have no excuse not to stop it. Having someone else control the egress actually gives you an excuse over why you can't let too many people through and pass the blame.
I think you're oversimplifying the problem here. It's not just that 'something will happen which will destabilize the GTVA', it's that almost all outcomes destabilize the GTVA.
Don't finish the gate? Population rebels at broken promises.
Finish the gate, don't declare war, don't try to control immigration? Enormous emigration to Sol.
Finish the gate, deny immigration? Rebellion that makes the NTF look like a picnic.
Finish the gate, attempt diplomatic resolution and staged immigration? Ubuntu ideology spreads virally.
Think of the GTVA in that situation as East Germany and the UEF as the West, except East Germany believes it needs to exist to keep the West safe, and the West doesn't seem to care much about that at all.
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/me starts sharpening the knives.
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*cracks knuckles*
You see...
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Ha, I knew Dilmah would be the first to post after that. :drevil:
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It's all well and good threatening to do stuff but until someone posts a comparable WALL OF TEXT D:
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It's all well and good threatening to do stuff but until someone posts a comparable WALL OF TEXT D:
Wall of text is good if they make good use of the enter key. I'll be looking forward to seeing if one of them walls appears, since I can barely speak for myself being a GTVA supporter.
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Yeah I think my reasoning boils down to "the GTVA is kind of slightly cooler"
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Or instead of starting the GTVA vs. UEF justification discussion all over again, maybe we should just direct him towards the other three threads that already discussed the topic at great length.
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It's a fun discussion though.
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I don't really want to get into a point-by-point argument so I'll just say that
I think you're oversimplifying the problem here. It's not just that 'something will happen which will destabilize the GTVA', it's that almost all outcomes destabilize the GTVA.
Don't finish the gate? Population rebels at broken promises.
Finish the gate, don't declare war, don't try to control immigration? Enormous emigration to Sol.
Finish the gate, deny immigration? Rebellion that makes the NTF look like a picnic.
Finish the gate, attempt diplomatic resolution and staged immigration? Ubuntu ideology spreads virally.
Think of the GTVA in that situation as East Germany and the UEF as the West, except East Germany believes it needs to exist to keep the West safe, and the West doesn't seem to care much about that at all.
Ah but I can add to that:
finish the gate, have war, win war, deny immigration and still face just as large a rebellion on your side AND face rebellion/unrest in the recently conquered Sol system.
Again if the stated reason is to stabilize the GTVA, (winning) a war with the UEF just makes that harder - If you win it results more territory to control and doesn't relieve the pressures leading to rebellion. Therefore to further your own cold war analogy, if the goal was stability the Tevs should not want to win the war but simply draw it out into a stalemate so they can similarly set up a cold war and use that as the reason to control or block immigration/emigration into/from the Sol system. While the GTVA seems so fragile at this point that even that might draw a rebellion, that's actually their best chance of avoiding stability problems. So far they seem intent on winning and doing so quickly which makes no sense since having the big bad UEF in control of Earth seems to be the only thing that might give the GTVA the stability it needs. So my second best alternative from my post above become first best. :)
If you actually think the Tevs don't have an argument for the war, I'll leave you in the hands of all the Tev fans here. ;7 Have fun.
I think it's okay that you don't feel the GTVA has a justification for its war (though future information you may receive from the story may change your mind - their entire agenda hasn't been revealed yet.)
:) Ah well you have me there, hence my mention of the huge caveat that I am not as aware of the game world as you guys are and if indeed there is more to story of why the Tevs are doing what they are doing then of course I will have to readjust or even recant my arguments.
The fact that we've been able to generate a fair amount of conflict between people on the topic is, at least, a good sign.
Perhaps ... I see some of those aforementioned Tev supporters have posted here. And with that I think I'll transfer over to addressing them. While it may be slightly self-serving since I wish to play your team's next game ;), best of luck creating WiH release 2!
@ Tev supporters: I understand if you guys don't want to open it up again since I am rather late to the party. However, if you are of a mind to, posting the links to the specific posts that you feel best crystalize your reasons for supporting the GTVA would be most appreciated. I can't promise to change my mind, but I will read them. :nod: I also don't wish to distract Battuta from working on the Release 2 game anymore!
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I thought the Vasudans just wanted a really good excuse to get into the war, for whatever reason they are waging said war.
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Just being allied with the Terrans is a good enough reason to go to war with someone they are at war, along with all the justifications the GTVA themselfs had for starting the invasion in the first place.
Maybe some Vasudans are intentionally trying to drag their race into it, but the majority of the Vasudan government apperently doesn't want that war, or they would have been all in from the very start and the 14th would have been acompanied by Vasudan ships too.
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I thought the Vasudans didn't know about the war until it had already been started?
Either way the Vasudans come off to me as a group of aliens who are more willing to start a war due to some outrageous betrayal attempt than because the terrans wanted to for some reason or another.
Government manipulating its population and all that.
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Keeping in mind, that the terran-vasudan war started because of a translation mistake...Steeles betrayal would be a good reason...but the vasudans know, that they need the terran if the shivans ever return...
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The UEF are also Terrans who would be very willing to ally with the Vasudans, so the argument that the Vasudans need the Terran part of the GTVA isn't really holding true, especially since the UEF and the Tevs have about the same resources and industrial base.
Granted, if they ally with the UEF in a way that they would have to fight the GTA, it would lead to massive conflict in their homesystems, but I doubt the GTA would try to fight a UEF-Vasudan alliance, if that ever came to be.
So the Vasudans don't have to stick with the GTA, they can just choose who to side with.
In the very long run an alliance with the UEF might even be more beneficial, if the GTA ever calms down, swallows their pride and joins as a third memeber of the new alliance.
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If the Vasudans could be that easily swayed to side with the UEF, Project Colossus and Deimos would have never come to fruition and the GTVA, inexistent.
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Those two projects were from a time the Vasudans had contact only with the GTA, so you really can't compare that.
And I never said it would be easy, just saying that in the long run it might very well be the better solution.
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Perhaps, having learned the lesson of the NTF Rebellion, the Vasudans have integrated a fail safe switch in reactors on terran ships, so they can simply disable them in a future conflict with the Tevs
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Perhaps, having learned the lesson of the NTF Rebellion, the Vasudans have integrated a fail safe switch in reactors on terran ships, so they can simply disable them in a future conflict with the Tevs
That sounds like Gaius Baltar...
aaaaa tall blonde vasudan woman :shaking:
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Now that you mentioned it...
But it would make sense...
"Oh, you terrans want to attack us with ships we designed? We don't think so..."
And click...a whole terran fleet without energie^^
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Remember, they designed them collaboratively.
EDIT: Though its not out of the question that the Vasudans could have pulled some strings/payed massive amounts of money to make sure the Terran engineers involved either looked the other way or were complete incompetents.
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Terrans always wondered what exactly that big switch "War [ON]/OFF" was doing in the Emperor's office.
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Once enough people have finished Act 3 I'll roll out a new, hard-hitting census. Journalism YOU can count on
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Hm. I won't probably make it.
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Probably won't make it where?
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"No contradictory options"? Deal with it--you make a story full of ambiguity and no clear right or wrong, you get non-clear-cut answers.
For instance, I identify with both the UEF and GTVA, and I think the blame for pretty much all of it comes down to the Vishnans and Shivans. It doesn't help that, in the end, neither side even knows what arbitrary goal to meet in order to be spared unstoppable xenocide at the hands of the jerkass, hypocritical gods. Said gods go really out of their way to ensure that humanity and vasudanity (?) have no idea what's going on, or if they even have an actual chance to be spared.
The assassination was deplorable. It's one thing to assassinate a traitor/defector, officer, or ace of some kind, but it's another thing entirely to assassinate a diplomat on a diplomatic mission. Don't *EVER* shoot the messenger.
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"No contradictory options"? Deal with it--you make a story full of ambiguity and no clear right or wrong, you get non-clear-cut answers.
Salty, dude, your reasoning is occasionally baffling. 'I found the Nyx dogfight too hard' and 'I thought the Nyx dogfight was okay', for example, are clearly contradictory options. It has nothing to do with the story being ambiguous or full of no clear right or wrong. We do not need to 'deal with it'. It's just meaningless to select them both.
The assassination was deplorable. It's one thing to assassinate a traitor/defector, officer, or ace of some kind, but it's another thing entirely to assassinate a diplomat on a diplomatic mission. Don't *EVER* shoot the messenger.
The position of extreme utilitarianism, though, might advocate shooting the messenger if it manages to save more lives in the long run than leaving the messenger alive.
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It's fun to watch humans be appalled about the fact that aliens do not seem to subscribe to their particular notions of morality :D.
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It's fun to watch humans be appalled about the fact that aliens do not seem to subscribe to their particular notions of morality :D.
They only seem to do so themselves half of the time when convenient anyway.
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I identify with the federation: The tevs had no right to attack a peaceful people who welcomed them with open arms. All their excuses fall apart when one examines them.
I used a checkpoint at least once in the campaign: it was an accident. What kind of FREDding miracles were needed to pull that off? I like it though.
I called his bluff in M05: I admit, I read the wiki beforehand. But it seemed the logical choice.
I thought Darkest Hour was just right: The one where you babysit n00bs? Heck, yeah, that was fun ;7. Tell them to follow me, then deliberately go where the battle is hottest. Not one of mine died. Alpha on the other hand.... :nono:
I killed Xinny and Zero: And felt bad about it. It was me or them though, I pick me. I thought they were trying to rescue Snipes though.
I found the Simms conversation easy: Be direct and don't do something stupid.
I found the Nyx dogfight hard: Don't get me wrong, I don't want you to change the campaign difficulty, but dang. I couldn't do anything but extreme evasive maneuvers. Also found you can get the kent up near 270-ish.
I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia: Easy. Open reinforcement menu, select strike bombers, bam, a wing of bomb-toting lunatics told to blow up a corvette. :p
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was a terrible accident: It was all going so well. Then the Hesperia jumped in, and everything went crazy. I took out flirty in the first minute and then we mopped up.
I felt good in One Perfect Moment: Finally, a relaxing mission. Also, awesome scenery.
I was shocked and appalled by the assassination
I thought the assassination was a good move: I was mad at the tevs for sinking to that level. I was sorry that the Vasudans were being played for fools by Steele. But I understand it. Though I am annoyed that Recamai didn't ask why the Feds would throw away their only chance to win the war.
I loved the soundtrack at the end of Pawns: I love all the music in Blue Planet. The soundtracks always match the mood of the mission.
I thought Delenda Est was just right: One niggle, you need to make a shortcut to find the main beams on the Deimoses. Otherwise, best mission yet!
I love Admiral Steele: He is a master strategist, and he plays a mean game of subspace chess. He kinda strikes me as someone who is doing all that he has only due to the idiots giving him orders. If he had his way the war would have ended faster and with fewer dead.
:beamz:
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I didn't play Act 3. My SERIOUS bad. I can't judge it until I've played Act 3 so I intend to do so.
Apologies for anyone that read this incomplete criticism. I'm downloading Act 3 now so :P
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I'd like to apologise to anyone who is offended by my above post, by the way. It is, after all, just my opinion and should not be given any weight unless you feel it resonates with you.
I realise I should also point out some positives for balance. I'll be shorter on these ones because I want to go to bed in a minute but don't give them any less weight than the complaints above.
1. Sanctuary. The plot of AoA was a great idea. I love the idea of the last gasp of the terran race in a universe where they are all but extinct. Loved the moment where the beams come out for the first time and thought "Yeah, that's how you blow up a Demon." That part of the story was really well done. If you ignore the complaints above, that's a really solid tale.
2. The crew of the Orestes, the Temeraire and the Indus were all fleshed out pretty well given the space you had to do them in. I think Simms and Laporte had a bit too much of a cross over in terms of character, but that's a very minor criticism which doesn't detract from the overall effect :)
3. The mission design was glorious. I particularly loved the use of training SEXPs to pull off complicated event structures within the missions. I didn't even know you could do that until I looked in the mission files to figure out how you did it. Those kind of little details make for an amazing experience.
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1. The GTVA
Your assessment is spot on, and that's exactly what the GTVA is in BP. Bei thinks it's a UFP, and he's completely wrong.
Now, a couple questions for you: As you understand it, why is the GTVA invading Sol?
Most importantly, have you read this (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Blue_Planet_intelligence_data)? It explains a great deal about the GTVA's thinking and approach to the war. It's a long read, but it's very important. Once you've read it, I'll be glad to engage in further discussion on the subject.
2. The Shivans
Play WiH Act 3. The last mission addresses your concerns gloriously. Let's just say that AoA doesn't really give you much insight into them. In my personal opinion, BP's approach to the Shivans has created one of the best precursors in all of SF.
3. Nagari
Again, Act 3 explains what Nagari is and why it's important. It's got nothing to do with chosen ones or destinies. Laporte kills things because she's a good pilot (or as good a pilot as you are), nothing else.
And you shouldn't think you're being insulting. You've said nothing anyone would be offended over.
Sidenote: My position on the team is one of the 3d modelers. I've got nothing to do with how good BP is.
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RIGHT.
I am going to massively apologise because I thought I had already played all of this mod and was informed (by YOUTUBE no less) that I haven't in fact played all of it.
So I'm going to go and play Act 3 right now and enjoy the rest of my evening. Once I'm done, I'll post my opinion again then. However I was informed by two seperate people that my approach on this was wrong and that Act 3 substantially elucidates on it all.
I hope that is so because it would fix the last thing that I thought was wrong with this mod :)
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not only that, there's also this act 4 and 5 that isn't still developed.
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I can't seem to find Act 3 in the campaign window. Do I have to play through all of Act 1 and 2 again to play it or am I missing a file/install?
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You need to select War in Heaven "Part 2" (which will eventually be acts 3-5, but is just 3 for now)
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1. The GTVA
Your assessment is spot on, and that's exactly what the GTVA is in BP. Bei thinks it's a UFP, and he's completely wrong.
So it would be more accurate to say Bei was naïve/wrong about the GTVA rather than the GTVA supposedly betrayed its principles?
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1. The GTVA
Your assessment is spot on, and that's exactly what the GTVA is in BP. Bei thinks it's a UFP, and he's completely wrong.
So it would be more accurate to say Bei was naïve/wrong about the GTVA rather than the GTVA supposedly betrayed its principles?
That's my opinion. The GTVA was the formalisation of an alliance of convenience/desperation made during the Great War. If the GTVA has a guiding star, it's survival by any means necessary, not peace and cooperation. Bei feels betrayed because the GTVA isn't and never has been what he thought it was.
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I can't seem to find Act 3 in the campaign window. Do I have to play through all of Act 1 and 2 again to play it or am I missing a file/install?
Your campaign data is probably out of date.
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I installed it wrong. Played it through. While I'm pleased and remain completely impressed with the way the campaign is designed, I do have a few points to make.
1. I note that at no point did Laporte actually considering questioning to Ken why the GTVA HAD to be destroyed.
If anything, the GTVA correctly identified the threat the Vishnans posed, acted rationally throughout the entire story and proceeded to attack the Federation precisely because of the threat the Vishnans posed. Surely the ideal situation now is for her "forces" to ally with similarly aligned forces ie. Steele, the Commander of the Carthage, Second Fleet.
While I take back my criticism earlier about the weird mysticism stuff, it remains in another form. Laporte has selflessly killed anyone who stood in her way from Federation pilots to innocent civilians depending on how you play her. The ultimate reality is that the entire civilization she fights for has been artificially molded. It would be in her character to rebel, despite her hatred. First thing I would have done is called Steele and let him know I know exactly why he's here and I want to HELP. Ken says the plan has failed, but then says "Oh but you need to win anyway". Why? Ubuntu was meant to prepare the way, so to speak.
Defending it seems somewhat pointless now. She knows what she's up against. The GTVA, NOT the Federation, is the side which understands the most about this war.
2. I liked the idea of what the Vishnans were but it still somewhat sits in my Shadows vs Vorlons bit. Okay they're a bit bigger than the Shadows vs Vorlons but surely cross dimensional supercomputer species have more in play than one single species on a maximum of 10 systems. I got no sense of scale. Maybe that's something to consider. It's all very well throwing around the word "layer" and "universe" and "quantum" but the kind of species that can successfully communicate across entire universes is going to have much bigger concerns than whether one little race of mammals is sufficiently enlightened enough to come play Space Chess with them.
An enemy of this scale is going to be concerned with the fate of entire realms. Think the Minds from the Culture. They consider the normal universe "mundane" and spend most of their fun time calculating entire universes of their own, tinkering with them and watching them collapse. They aren't even particularly powerful by Shivan comparisons, really. They toy with entire species or entire intragalactic civilizations purely on a wager, like bored Gods. They devote fractions of a fraction of an infinitesimal of their virtually infinite span of attention to conversing with humans. They crash start ships before humans can even register they're taking a footstep.
Shivans and Vishnans, essentially galactic minds, are far beyond even this point. Further, what confused the living hell out of me is exactly why the Vishnans let the 14th go back there. They say they can comprehend infinite possibilities or something similar. Well if they simulated every possible outcome, why didn't they simulate one in which the GTVA knew what they intended to do? To take the example of the Minds again, the Minds are considered so paranoid they are often accused of being Machiavellian. They have plans within plans within gambits within plans. They take risks when they can compute the long odds, they make back up plans for if the long odds prove too long. They never assume anything about anyone.
Surely a virtually universal intelligence is going to think on this level. Even humans make the walls of ants nests thick enough to not be burrowed through.
3. This is actually a mission design thing. The weapons on the Federation side of WiH have become far, far too powerful.
I'm not the best Freespace pilot in the world but a stealth ship + shotgun mechanism pretty much just renders every mission "get up close, shoot once". Not to mention the damn ship is faster than anything else so you break off for 15s and then insta kill anything you want. Never mind that if you turn about and actually engage a ship that should, in theory, pummel the living crap out of you (like a Perseus or a Nyx) you can still kill it in under 3s. Tone it down a bit, guys. It's no fun being an incredible pilot if every single weapon you have can kill a small moon.
Of course I can't take away from the mission design. I remain incredibly impressed at how far FRED can be pushed to do things. My only concern on this front is that I didn't feel there was very much actual gameplay. I mean we had Tower Defense, Making Up The Numbers, a Capital Ship Mission (which I enjoyed, but still) two full story segments and all the time we were flying in invisible, virtually unstoppable Shotgun Ships. I even considered playing another ship for a bit and then thought "eh, why bother. I can just shotgun everything to death and if someone sees me I run off."
I'm not saying I didn't die but that was because I wasn't flying the stealth ship properly. The moment I started to fly it properly, it was easy.
4. I notice the Tech Room assets were missing, as well as any real description on the weapons. As a player, I trust you guys to balance your weapons. I don't need the raw numbers, they're meaningless except for as comparison pieces and best left to a wiki. I want a nice short and sharp description of what it does and why I should use it so I can make up my own mind.
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A sad thing that Battuta isn't here to address or respond to your points, but I'm sure Darius and any other BP devs will gladly reply to you. You made quite the good criticism there Rheyah. :yes:
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Indeed. In the meantime, I've got some spare time :)
Regarding #1: I think the problem is that a GTVA victory will prompt the Vishnan to order a cull - or do it themselves. On the other hand, we don't know what UEF victory through Shamballa would result into. Laporte, the Fedayeen and 3rd Fleet are, I think, trying to find a third option, a UEF victory that doesn't involve the Elders' - and by extension the Vishnan's project. It wouldn't exactly be an easy task for Laporte to ally herself with Alliance elements such as Steele. There's quite a few high-ranked Alliance members on Laporte's list, some which she is unlikely to let go easily (Steele again comes to mind).
Regarding #2: We still don't have a clear view on what the Vishnan or Shivan end goal might be, what gambits or plans they play on a universal multiversal scale, how many ant colonies they are monitoring, eliminating or otherwise interfering with. For all we know, they've got hundreds, if not thousands of other civilizations accross the universe that show some sort of "potential". Writing off humanity might just be that unimportant to them.
Regarding #3: I think the devs wanted the player to focus on using the assets at their disposal than shooting down ships, and thus kept the shotgun and mini-redeemer at their current power level. Also keep in mind that these are not standard issue weapons, so far the only Federation fighters seen carrying them are the Fedayeen's stealth fighters. Even an elite taskforce such as the Wargods didn't have access to that kind of stuff.
Regarding #4: Yeah, the devs forgot to re-give the tech entries at the beginning of the campaign. Hit alt+shift+s in the techroom opens up every mission and every intel entry, even for ship and weapons that don't have any.
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Yeah, you saw how quickly the Shivans wanted to write off the 14th battlegroup and the last of the Terrans in that universe. Possibly they're working to the same goal, but with different means than they originally were set in. Ken stated that the old ways no longer applied, like they've lost their direction. It seems like they are searching for a replacement for "the Brahmans of old" as the Shivans put it. They've searched galaxies, universes even. Yet they seem divided on the humans. Even the Shivans seem to be divided amongst themselves. :shaking: :nervous: Yes they may see humans as ants. But they see some potential in certain humans such as Commander Bei and Sublieutenant Laporte.
And I would like to see either Bei flying Laporte's wing or Laporte flying Bei's wing. That would be awesome.
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Regarding mission balance, I think the insane power of the Ainsarii is intended and desirable. In a large scale battle where dozens of ships are fighting, there is a risk that the player's performance becomes insignificant, resulting in a mission that may fail even if the player performs exceptionally well or succeed even if the player does absolutely nothing (also known as the BoE syndrome). While victory doesn't always go to the most deserving party in the real world, such a mission would be decidedly not fun.
One of the ways to prevent a "self-playing" mission is giving the player a powerful ship. Take for example Wing Commander Saga, where the player gets the Excalibur superfighter when the time comes to go into large-scale battles. Her Finest Hour does a good job at making the player's performance highly relevant towards the mission outcome, in part because how quickly a few Sidhe bursts can waste the opposition, and by giving the player a number of things to do like designating artillery targets and deciding about which reinforcements to send.
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Considering I beat WiH a month ago, I should have completed this survey a while back!
I identify with the Federation
Bei was right. The UEF might not be perfect, but the GTVA I saved three times from the Lucifer, Hades, and Sathanas is dead. The Tevs basically fell into despair; they've got no hope or future to offer humanity.
I never/could not figure out how to use a checkpoint
I found out about checkpoints during Act II, but I didn't really bother with them. I was playing on a comfortable difficulty, so surviving wasn't too hard (although completing the objectives sometimes was).
I called the bluff in M05
I knew beforehand that there would be morality choices, and this was obviously the first. "Just Fighting" sounded foolish, and "Taking a Hostage" would have been wrong, so I called the bluff and triggered some really tense dialogue. I eventually fired on the Gefs- I waited till the bomb was diffused, and at that point it looked like the stand-off had served its purpose. Later I looked up the other options, but I like the way I did it: no killing a hostage, no jumping the guy with the trigger, just quick thinking.
I thought Darkest Hour was just right
VERY cool mission. Had me in a crazy panic from the time I warped in the the time the Atreus warped out. Not having the "time to waypoint" timer on the Installation multiplied the intensity fivefold. Excellent display of modern Tev bombing strategy, guys! I got about half my rookies back alive, which seemed pretty good to me.
I killed Xinny and Zero
The first time I actually get shot down by them. I wasn't satisfied though, so I kept trying till I bet the mission. I lost Vin and Camerone though. Was I sad about Xinny and Zero? ...yes. But that's war. Besides, if they HAD to go down in this war, it might as well be against the UEF's new Ace of Aces.
I found the Simms conversation easy
I just took the Direct/Professional approach and said what came naturally. Not quite sure how that led to the awkward jump of logic at the end though. I liked War in Heaven as a whole, but the Laporte-Simms "romance" was a major blot on an otherwise awesome story. Perhaps if I hadn't done as "perfectly" on the conversation it wouldn't have been so blatantly stated? Anyway, after that mission it was thankfully apparent (or at least plausible) that Simms and Laporte had dropped all that and just become good friends/comrades-at-arms, a much better plot choice.
I thought the Nyx dogfight was okay
It was tricky, ya, but I beat it on the first try.
I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia
The first time around I figured it out... too late. The second time I called in Strike bombers to kill the Medea and Interceptors for extra support, and it worked like a charm. On later techroom replays I even managed to save Torpedo Two (thanks to some advice from fellow players who told me to dump the Nyx and stick with the Kentauroi (you should get a medal for spelling Kentauroi right without checking the wiki :) )) Awesome mission, great cinematics, perfect music choices, intense gameplay, and plenty of strategy.
I thought the Vasudan Logistics incident was an act of treachery
After what happened on DiS... probably. If Steele has that much control over Kostadin, I didn't think he would let them hit his logistics unless he wanted it to happen.
One perfect moment...
was complicated. I had combination of "great comrade-at-arms story" with "I hope they don't start THAT again". In the end: I felt good. The dialogue was great.
I was shocked and appalled by the assassination
Steele's playing his own allies for fools! What, does he think he can fool the entire Terran and Vasudan species permanently?
I really loved the soundtrack at the end of Pawns
Are you sure you don't mean Delenda Est? Anyway, both had awesome music, especially Delenda Est (Preliator is now my homework BGM :P )
I thought Delenda Est was just right
And by just right I mean very challenging. EPIC mission, a complete seesaw, almost leaves you shell-shocked.
I want to kill Admiral Steele
After his first appearance I thought, "Hey, if the Shivans show up this is a guy that would be cool to work with." After DiS, I changed my mind.
Don't forget, today is 9/11.