Hard Light Productions Forums

Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: Hades on September 12, 2010, 06:14:33 pm

Title: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on September 12, 2010, 06:14:33 pm
I've always personally felt that MVP beams were too big, especially when, for example, the Sgreen and SVas are both twice as wide as an Aeolus. So I got off my lazy arse and made a quick .tbm fix for it.

You can get it hurr (http://filesmelt.com/dl/mv_fixedbeams-wep.tbm).
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Commander Zane on September 12, 2010, 09:41:31 pm
I have another .tbm that was uploaded about a week ago that has range fixes for the beams, is this included or separate?
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: blowfish on September 12, 2010, 09:47:14 pm
Completely separate and unrelated.  The two should not conflict either.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Kolgena on September 12, 2010, 09:59:19 pm
Just for clarification, can you tell us if these extra-wide beams were present in 3.6.10?
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on September 12, 2010, 11:18:09 pm
I believe they were. Have anyone found any errors or have any complaints with the resized beams?
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Vengence on September 15, 2010, 09:27:33 am
When loading up FS2 it throws a complaint at me saying it found 38 errors in the tables and cannot guarantee smooth playing. When I removed your TBMs the error went away. I haven't tried the beams yet but if the thing is saying there are errors in the tables, are there?
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on September 15, 2010, 03:35:14 pm
I get no errors myself, with several mods (WiH, mediavp 3.6.12, etc)
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Droid803 on September 15, 2010, 05:07:38 pm
They might be conflicting with whatever mod you're running, even if it doesn't conflict with WiH or the 3612 mvps...
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Vengence on September 16, 2010, 07:07:03 pm
Well I had my Blizzard fighter in conjunction with the MediaVP 3.6.12 mod so it is possible my own mod added errors but I am unsure how many. Also I doubt there were any 'conflicts'. My mod didn't edit any beams for certain.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: The E on September 16, 2010, 07:12:22 pm
Might help if you posted an fs2_open.log.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Maverick on September 17, 2010, 12:42:09 am
Is it possible to post a few screenshots to show and give a comparison between the 2?
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on September 18, 2010, 06:33:01 pm
I found out what the issue with the tbm might have been and I've fixed it. Link is the attachment.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on November 24, 2010, 09:20:52 pm
Right, so I'm bumping this because I've actually got some screenshots of most of the Terran beams (for both mvp and my fix!)

I've pretty much finished the tbm, just gotta do some tweaks before it's ready for rerelase.

Now for the pictures:

SGreen, MVP:
(http://filesmelt.com/dl/sgreen.jpg)
SGreen, my resize:
(http://filesmelt.com/dl/sgreennew.jpg)

BGreen, MVP:
(http://filesmelt.com/dl/bgreen.jpg)
BGreen, resize:
(http://filesmelt.com/dl/bgreennew.jpg)

TerSlash, MVP:
(http://filesmelt.com/dl/terslash.jpg)
TerSlash, resize:
(http://filesmelt.com/dl/terslashnew.jpg)

LTerSlash, MVP:
(http://filesmelt.com/dl/lterslash.jpg)
LTerSasj, resize:
(http://filesmelt.com/dl/lterslashnew.jpg)
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Droid803 on November 24, 2010, 09:52:53 pm
BGreen is now far less impressive, the bigger ones were fine IMO, and the smaller one would probably look funny coming from the massive beam dish on the Hecate.
The LTerSlash looks kinda funny (though maybe I'm just used to the fenris/leviathan spouting a bigass beam)

Other than that good job :yes:
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Kolgena on November 24, 2010, 10:00:13 pm
Did you tweak the explosion/beam pierce sizes to match? In one of those screenshots, you can see a pretty big disparity between the impact fireball and the beam width.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on November 24, 2010, 10:12:21 pm
Did you tweak the explosion/beam pierce sizes to match? In one of those screenshots, you can see a pretty big disparity between the impact fireball and the beam width.
That's one from the mediavps, not the test directory I use.

BGreen is now far less impressive, the bigger ones were fine IMO, and the smaller one would probably look funny coming from the massive beam dish on the Hecate.
Other than that good job :yes:
orly
(http://filesmelt.com/dl/hecate.jpg)
anyway, I've revised the beams some, and made the ones besides the small beams a little bigger. And the picture above is before the enlargement somewhat.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Droid803 on November 24, 2010, 10:38:53 pm
Yeah, that's about the lower limit of what doesn't look funny :P
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: General Battuta on November 24, 2010, 11:24:09 pm
These are good changes. I like them.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on November 24, 2010, 11:51:16 pm
Thanks, Battuta! :D

Anyway, I've attached the tbm for the revised beam sizes, just stick them in the tables folder under your mediavps folder. I'd like some feedback/suggestions on them, if at all possible please.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hellzed on November 25, 2010, 12:29:24 am
IMHO, the beam size is good (perhaps just a bit too small), but i think the flare around the turret is too small. I'd like to see a bigger flare, with some hi-res shine effect, not juste a unicolor plasma bubble.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: MatthTheGeek on November 25, 2010, 01:33:03 am
Err... Wut ? What's good with scaling down every Terran beam, I don't even.

With all due respect, this looks retarded to me. Sorry bro, I hate to be harsh like that, but I don't find any way to express it nicely, since my thoughts here are basically, "why the **** did you do that ?".
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on November 25, 2010, 01:36:31 am
Err... Wut ? What's good with scaling down every Terran beam, I don't even.

With all due respect, this looks retarded to me. Sorry bro, I hate to be harsh like that, but I don't find any way to express it nicely, since my thoughts here are basically, "why the **** did you do that ?".
It's every beam because, at the default MVP size, you can barely see half the ships firing them. They're stupidly oversized in the MVPs and you'd be silly to think otherwise.

(http://filesmelt.com/dl/sgreen.jpg)
As an example, this looks absurd. If you seriously think that looks good then you seriously have awful taste.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Admiral LSD on November 25, 2010, 01:50:06 am
Err... Wut ? What's good with scaling down every Terran beam, I don't even.

With all due respect, this looks retarded to me. Sorry bro, I hate to be harsh like that, but I don't find any way to express it nicely, since my thoughts here are basically, "why the **** did you do that ?".

 :lol:

just...

 :lol:
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Kolgena on November 25, 2010, 02:11:05 am
For some, size is the only thing that matters.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Fury on November 25, 2010, 02:30:48 am
I fully support Hades on this. Mediavps beams have been way too large for the ships that fire them. It's ridiculous for beams to encompass and clip through large parts of the firing ships. This is much better and should be merged into mediavps.

Hades, while you're at it can you doublecheck that your Mjolnir beams are of sane size, unlike mediavps?
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: ssmit132 on November 25, 2010, 03:58:42 am
Just as long as I don't get vaporised 300 metres away from the visual effect.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Vasudan Admiral on November 25, 2010, 07:17:50 am
The wide beam columns were my mistake from when I was last upgrading them - one of the things I added was a haze layer which needed to be really wide. Never occurred to me that would actually change the width of the beam damage. Now if only I could count all the players killed because of it as mine, I would have the best K:D ratio EVER. :p

The dimensions of the glows though I'm pretty sure were relatively close to retail values if not smaller. I distinctly remembering shrinking the aeolus beams to something quite reasonable, so I actually have no idea where this growth spurt came from to the present size.

Also I'd agree that the big beams must remain big! No dinky star trek phasors for FS! :p
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Fury on November 25, 2010, 07:45:27 am
Because it would be unreasonable to have three different versions of each beam - one for cruisers, second for corvettes and third for destroyers, it would be better if all beams look good on each three ship types.

And this literally means that glows on all beams must be small enough to look good on cruisers, yet large enough not to look stupid coming from destroyer turrets. This may result them looking more like ST phasors, but in my opinion it is reasonable tradeoff.

Hades' screenshots on the previous page speak for themselves. Beams look a lot better.

Just as long as I don't get vaporised 300 metres away from the visual effect.
This has already been fixed in 3.6.12 MVPs via +Beamwidth.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Vasudan Admiral on November 25, 2010, 08:02:49 am
Nah I think small beams just look too unimpressive. Ruins the wow factor. Especially if the haze around them is reduced as it appears to be in the screens. :(
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Fury on November 25, 2010, 08:42:40 am
Massive Battle 2 doesn't have Aeolus, so here's retail screenshots of Bgreen and Terslash. Shivan beams comes as bonus.

(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7379/screen0053.th.jpg) (http://img3.imageshack.us/i/screen0053.jpg/)
(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1522/screen0057.th.jpg) (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/screen0057.jpg/)

Mediavps beams should be edited to be closer to retail beams in size, including glow and haze. Frankly, I've never liked how large glows and how wide beam haze has been in mediavps beams.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: MatthTheGeek on November 25, 2010, 08:49:51 am
Fury is right, what Hades did is going too far from retail. While I do agree that the resized SGreen looks better, I very strongly disagree with shranking the others beams. Resizing the haze to something more correct is one thing, resizing the beam itself to something much thinner than retail is a totally different matter.

Aside from the obvious "big beams are better because they're more impressive", the sheer size of Terran beams have always been a very core part of the "primitive beam technology" feel of Terran beams, as if lots of energy got wasted for a poor effectiveness.

I sure hope those modifications won't end up in the MVPs, or at least not without the required corrections. But modifying the current MVPs beams to something closer than retail could be done IMHO.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Fury on November 25, 2010, 08:53:21 am
And now retail Aeolus.

(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/8430/screen0059.th.jpg) (http://img528.imageshack.us/i/screen0059.jpg/)

Ugh, disgusting.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Rodo on November 25, 2010, 09:08:51 am
Hate to go against everyone but I like beams as they are now, and even if you say I have bad taste I shall save my current table for personal amusement.
This patch will eventually go into the new mvp release, right?
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on November 25, 2010, 10:31:53 am
This patch will eventually go into the new mvp release, right?
Discussions are being held on that right now.

Hate to go against everyone but I like beams as they are now, and even if you say I have bad taste I shall save my current table for personal amusement.
Fine, you can have your beams that, with every charge-up, destroy a section of the firerer's hull! No one can stop oyu.

And in general, this is a FreeSpace Upgrade project, and even if retail oversized the beams (especially the glows) does not mean we should have to follow suit.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Rodo on November 25, 2010, 11:09:00 am
That's right, but I'm not against the improvement of mvps.
I just like my beams big and mean, besides the big thing goes well with the amount of damage these light columns deal.
I won't buy a small beam killing a Destroyer in two volleys.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on November 25, 2010, 11:15:11 am
Except none of the bbeams do that, which are a little bigger than the bgreen on the first page. Not to mention the BGreen doesn't even kill an Aeolus in one shot (it's closer to two, full shots) and the default MVP size has the beam as wide as the Aeolus, with the actual beam being even worse. The BFRed and BFGreen are still big.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Qent on November 25, 2010, 11:19:37 am
I have to say, going smaller than retail definitely seems wrong. And if you look at the MVP Aeolus+beam you posted a page back, the beam is only that big because of the haze, which looks fine.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on November 25, 2010, 11:21:27 am
The glow is actually way too big too. Anyway, I'll probably change some beam sizes around, but that'll have to be for later, since I'll be away for a while.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Nohiki on November 25, 2010, 11:24:49 am
I have to agree with this. The SGreen is way too big even in retail, and the two terslashes covering whole front of deimos are a bit off too, though they and the bgreen look really well on the hecate. Guess you'd have to make a clone of it for big and smaler ships but that's overkill xD
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Rodo on November 25, 2010, 11:26:43 am
Sure, I was just making an exaggerated example, it's clear that no beam kills a destroyer with only two volleys.
What I meant is that the beams are big right now, and that they go along with the amount of damage these inflict... somehow.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Commander Zane on November 25, 2010, 11:32:11 am
You're pretty much boned when it comes to the LRed though, both Destroyer and Cruiser-mounted it'll need a very good compromise.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Qent on November 25, 2010, 11:54:54 am
While firing (i.e. not considering refire wait or pulse length) an LRed does less DPS than a BGreen.   O.o
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Commander Zane on November 25, 2010, 12:23:50 pm
I mean in origin and beam size. You think the SGreens on the Aeolus are bad, the LRed noms Liliths nearly whole.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Rodo on November 25, 2010, 12:44:17 pm
And that's just awesome.... it looks terrifying.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Fury on November 25, 2010, 12:46:39 pm
Terrifying? More like terrible.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Qent on November 25, 2010, 12:49:28 pm
Subjective. Like beam fade, except maybe not so dramatic.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Kolgena on November 25, 2010, 03:29:38 pm
Terrifying? More like terrible.

This is how I tell if it's a lilith or a cain if it's far away. If it resembles a mobile Mjolnir, it means I should lug out some trebs.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Rodo on November 25, 2010, 03:58:54 pm
Yes, terrifying.
When I see the energy build up I know I have to be away or else.
If you make it smaller I'll be like.. "dammit, that little piece of **** made me loose?"
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Herra Tohtori on November 25, 2010, 04:06:15 pm
For the record, I am of the opinion that this needs to make a comeback, along with matching colour scheme for all the shivan beams.

(http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/5377/beamglow4.gif)

EDIT: And looking at the actual table in fsusvn, it seems they do use these beamglows now.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on November 25, 2010, 04:27:27 pm
It's odd that the glows are red but the beams are pink, I think. I'd rather the beams be red. :<
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Sololop on November 25, 2010, 04:35:01 pm
I concur with the downsize of the beam glow. The Aeolus should, in theory, be tearing itself to shreds.

Shivan beams I think are fine as they are, anyway. Big and Overpowering, as they should be.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Zacam on November 25, 2010, 08:32:44 pm
I like the size changes myself.
That beam from the Aeolus is cringe-worthy.
But that is what that ship is outfitted with and the idea of mucking about the load-out and the tables just to provide a specific variant, while not inconceivable, would be a pain in the arse.
And I'm not going to break the balance of the Retail missions by changing the load-out to a different weapon that is more aesthetically pleasing or take up the room to table an identical-in-all-but-visual-respects copy either.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Nighteyes on November 25, 2010, 08:49:14 pm
I remember I made a recolored shivan beam, I made them red instead of pink... I honestly don't understand why they are pink in the mediavps...
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Shivan Hunter on November 25, 2010, 11:12:15 pm
Guess the backing for it is they look kinda ultraviolet and therefore more energetic. The problem with it is they don't look Shivan. Also, the beamglow Herra linked is several orders of magnitude more 1337 than the current beamglows, especially for large beams.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: MatthTheGeek on November 26, 2010, 12:56:40 am
Err, since when are the Shivan beams pink ? They're pretty damn red here. Pic please ?
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on November 26, 2010, 01:37:57 am
(http://filesmelt.com/dl/screen0130.jpg)
Both the SRed and BRed are moar like BPink and SPink.

BFRed is red, though.

Also, the those are the beam sizes from the MVPs.

EDIT:
(http://filesmelt.com/dl/lolwutsred.jpg)
(http://filesmelt.com/dl/lolwubred.jpg)
Both are MVP sizes.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: ShadowGorrath on November 26, 2010, 03:30:20 am
Finally some actually made the beams look better. Was getting sick of the MVP beams being larger than the turrets ( and ships ) that fired them.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: T-Man on November 27, 2010, 07:11:03 pm
Nice work Hades. Not everyone's cup of tea it would seem but still a good effort regardless :). Do agree that the Aeolus' retail beams were a tad too big (always thought it'd shred its nose whenever it fired)

If people's problems are with the size of the blobs that from on the turrets of beam cannons and not with the actual beams, could a resize feature perhaps be added later on in the tables, so a turret has preset resizes for the energy ball bitmap when certain beam weapons are selected? Crazy thought i know but just came to my head.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on November 27, 2010, 08:10:39 pm
Well, first off, you have to resize the beam with the blob or else the beam won't fit the blob and the end of the haze will be visible. As for the table idea,  have no idea if that's even possible at the moment.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Kolgena on December 01, 2010, 01:45:34 am
Hey Hades, I tried out your beam table, and like the direction you're taking. However, the beam blobs seem a little too small relative to the beam shafts. It almost makes them feel like they're not anchored or are imbalanced or something. Could you either shrink shaft diameter by 10% or increase blob radius by 10% (or a bit of both) and see where that leaves us?
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: CommanderDJ on December 01, 2010, 02:48:28 am
I reckon BFGreen and BGreen should stay as they are (the whole wow factor thing), but I have no problem with SGreen being resized. The Aeolus did look a little funny like that.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Kolgena on December 01, 2010, 09:07:04 am
I actually mostly like the sizes of everything right now. Smaller beams helps to give ships a bigger sense of scale.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Maverick on December 01, 2010, 11:37:28 am
mediavps\tables folder to get the sexy resizes correct?
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on December 01, 2010, 05:04:54 pm
Yes.

mediavpdirectory/data/tables to be specific.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: FSW on December 01, 2010, 06:20:28 pm
Gigantic, ship-swallowing beam glows on cruisers always did look silly.

Hades' new SGreen and LTerSlash look much better than the MVP versions. I never really noticed a problem with the destroyer-level beams in the MVPs, though. Perhaps Hades' are too small.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: sigtau on December 01, 2010, 06:42:31 pm
I agree entirely with what FSW said--SGreen and LTerSlash look much better now, however, the BGreen, BFGreen, and TerSlash need to stay as they are (though the haze could use a bit of a size reduction, since the haze can also vaporize your ship IIRC).
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Delta_V on December 01, 2010, 07:27:30 pm
I think Hades' version of the TerSlash is slightly small.  It looks good on the Deimos, but I think it might seem a little small on the Hecate and Orion, not to mention the Colossus.  I would go with somewhere between the two.  Hades' versions of the smaller beams are good; I'd leave them as they are now.  But for the BGreen and above, I think they should stay big.  The BGreen is the most powerful Terran beam, and it should look intimidating. 

As for the Shivan beams, yeah, there might not be a good solution.  Either the LRed is going to eat the Lilith whole or look totally underpowered and not at all the fear-inspiring weapon that it should be on the Ravana.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Mongoose on December 01, 2010, 08:56:27 pm
Just have it eat the Lilith whole.  I always felt like that reinforced the notion of it as a where-the-hell-is-that-coming-from artillery cruiser of d00m. :p
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Qent on December 01, 2010, 10:38:44 pm
What about campaigns that have user-made ships firing the old beams? That's another reason I think the sizes should stay close to retail.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on December 01, 2010, 11:05:16 pm
The terslash should not be made any larger than my resize because remember, even though it's on the Colossus and Deimos, it's still the same weapon. Not only does it better fit the bullseye turrets of the Hecate, it doesn't swallow up the ones on the Orion or the front of the Deimos.

Not to mention, the bigger the beam, the less focused, and thus less powerful. a bgreen being big enough to cover the whole front of the Hecate is not intimidating, but rather ugly.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Kolgena on December 01, 2010, 11:20:06 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me beam impact explosions (and maybe pierce-through effects) haven't been shrunk down to match the smaller beams.

(I still think the beam balls need to be a tad bigger than they are now)
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on December 01, 2010, 11:27:33 pm
The beam balls are the size that they are because they integrate better with the beam. Make them too small, and you can see the edges of the beam coming from the turret. Make them to large, and the beam balls will look out of place and more like an afterthought.

And yeah, they weren't downsizes in the table uploaded. I'll upload a newer version in a bit.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Kolgena on December 01, 2010, 11:35:52 pm
Very much looking forward to seeing your newest version.

What I mean though, for bigger beam balls, is that the white core of the glow looks too skimpy. You see a medium-sized ball of energy spool up (with a hefty corona of flare or whatnot), then see a beam pretty much the same width as the ball emerge out of it upon firing. That's what I meant when I said it looks imbalanced. I almost expect the ball to shrink and disappear as it's drained into the shaft. In fact, the current glow almost looks like it's the rounded off end of a beam shaft, rather than the ball of energy that's the source of the beam.

I don't quite get that impression with the current MVP terran beams, though to a certain extent, MVP LReds fired from Ravanas kind of give me this impression as well. It's less about the size of the sprite than the size of the white part.

Also, when you're modifying explosions for slash beams, it'd be nice to check if they were still big enough to form a nice continuous line of burn. I understand that the beam skips along the hull, so if explosions are too small, they might look disjointed.

(+1 vote for upsizing the terslash just a smidge. It should look almost as big as a BGreen, IMO. Also, the screenshot might be outdated, but first page of this thread shows the lterslash as comparable in size to an AAA. That's a big no-no if it's still the case.)
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on December 01, 2010, 11:36:49 pm
Here it is. Just place it in the same place as the last.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: TrashMan on December 02, 2010, 02:13:05 am
Not to mention, the bigger the beam, the less focused, and thus less powerful. a bgreen being big enough to cover the whole front of the Hecate is not intimidating, but rather ugly.

That's your personal theory. I personally like terran beams much more than shivan ones. They look much more powerful with their turbulence and "bleeding".
While one can certanly interpret that as having poor beam technology, thus not controlling the beam well and loosing power in the process, one can ALSO interpret it as the beam having so much power behind it that even the finest control struggles with it. In other words, it can look both powerful and weak, depending on how you interpret it.
I presonaly go with wild, untamed power one.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 02, 2010, 06:49:14 am
one can ALSO interpret it as the beam having so much power behind it that even the finest control struggles with it.
Which means Terrans also have a poor control technology, since even their finest ones can't control correctly a beam which is much less powerful than its Vasudan and Shivan equivalents. So its another argument in favor of poor beam technology.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Qent on December 02, 2010, 07:31:51 am
one can ALSO interpret it as the beam having so much power behind it that even the finest control struggles with it.
Which means Terrans also have a poor control technology, since even their finest ones can't control correctly a beam which is much less powerful than its Vasudan and Shivan equivalents. So its another argument in favor of poor beam technology.
Actually, the beam is more powerful than its Vasudan and Shivan equivalents.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Nohiki on December 02, 2010, 07:37:59 am
True. Highest damages per pulse have SRed for small beams and BGreen for large, only damage per second is smaller because of the recharge, which would indicate that terrans and vasudans might have a problem with cooling the cannons. In high noon, the colossus mentioned melting the overcharged BGreens if they pumped more energy through them. Well, about the flash size, it depends on how fast it charges (warmup time de facto). I take it that we all can agree on the flash being a "reservoir" for the beam, hence the big size, but if you can recharge the flash quickly (and 1,2 seconds or sth like that for small beams is quite fast), i'd say the flash can be smaller.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 02, 2010, 09:26:45 am
I'm always talking about per-second damage. I tend to consider per-pulse damage as irrelevant. Thanks for pointing it out though.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Nohiki on December 02, 2010, 09:53:14 am
It's not as irrelevant as it might seem. If you jump a corvette with a destroyer, stronger per pulse damage is more likely to take it out instantly, but it might just survive the weaker pulse and inflict some damage to the destroyer or warp out.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: General Battuta on December 02, 2010, 09:55:09 am
It's not as irrelevant as it might seem. If you jump a corvette with a destroyer, stronger per pulse damage is more likely to take it out instantly, but it might just survive the weaker pulse and inflict some damage to the destroyer or warp out.

We did an analysis on this and it's irrelevant for basically every ship in FreeSpace. The differences in per pulse damage aren't enough.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Qent on December 02, 2010, 06:53:25 pm
A BGreen also has a higher raw damage than a BVas or LRed, so intuitively it would be look bigger. If MattTheGeek wants to lump primitive containment technology on top of that, then it would be even bigger.

In terms of balance they still suck though. The damage per pulse thing is probably more relevant to the SGreen.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: TrashMan on December 03, 2010, 03:02:00 am
one can ALSO interpret it as the beam having so much power behind it that even the finest control struggles with it.
Which means Terrans also have a poor control technology, since even their finest ones can't control correctly a beam which is much less powerful than its Vasudan and Shivan equivalents. So its another argument in favor of poor beam technology.

Meh..It looks like raw, destructive power. Reminds me of the Macross main gun...and the main gun from the Yamato...and the main gun from the Starship Operators.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on December 06, 2010, 01:02:38 am
(http://filesmelt.com/dl/bgreencol.jpg)
That's the current Bgreen size coming out of a button of the Colossus.
(http://filesmelt.com/dl/terslashcol.jpg)
Terslash coming out of another.

See, the thing with the Terslash is, it has to be scaled to be able to fit on the smallest ships, like the Deimos. Make it big enough to be bigger than the button and it won't fit at all on the Deimos.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Qent on December 06, 2010, 01:56:35 am
Looks good. But what about user-made ships that expect it to be retail-sized?
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Mongoose on December 07, 2010, 01:46:11 am
Honestly, I'd rather have them looking ridiculously big on small ships yet okay on the big ones than looking good on small ships yet as wimpy as those screenshots are.  I always got a kick out of beam glows swallowing up cruisers, anyway. :p
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on December 07, 2010, 02:56:25 am
Thing is, it's not really fair to put cruiser/corvette and destroyer beams on a juggernaut that at the least thee times longer than. the LRBGreen and BFGreen do look right on it though.

I'll get some screens of the Fenris, Deimos, Hecate firing their normal beams and the Colossus firing the LRBGreen.

Here they are:

(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm56/HLPHades/lrbgreen.jpg)
LRBGreen
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm56/HLPHades/bgreenh.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm56/HLPHades/bgreenh2.jpg)
Bgreen
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm56/HLPHades/terslash3.jpg)
Terslash
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on December 07, 2010, 03:37:56 am
And here's the latest revision of the file. Same place as always, overwrite, etc.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 07, 2010, 03:59:43 am
Tiny beams are still tiny. Thank god I know enough tabling to overwrite those if they ever end up in the MVPs, which I surely hope they don't.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on December 07, 2010, 04:17:54 am
I have to say, that's pretty surprising considering you appear to lack the capacity for constructive criticism.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Psychonaut on December 07, 2010, 05:35:59 am
I´ve really pimped up the normal MVPs with lots of custom explosions, shaders, the extensive use of the exp_flash-script etc. So everything is over the top and i really like it that way. But IMHO the "tiny" beams are a step forward for the overall visual appearance of the game. Especially if you use the beam-piercing effect, which is now more noticeable.
Right now i´m at work, but i´m looking forward to test the new .tbm at home. Keep up the good work.

 
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: headdie on December 07, 2010, 06:41:38 am
how does this sound?  Have a setup where the beam muzzle flash and beam width are set as normal in the weapon table but then be able to list scaling factors somewhere like Objecttypes.tbl so if the beam is fired from a ship with a cruiser flag it applies one scale factor but a corvette flagged ship will apply a different (larger) scale factor to those values.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Kolgena on December 07, 2010, 07:56:22 am
I'm not sure I would like that. Having a Lilith fire off something SRed sized that OHKOs cruisers doesn't make much sense.

That, and it's easier to tell exactly what beam is being fired if the sizes remain consistent across ships.

I think the Terslash has quite a bit of room to be bigger. Personally, I always envisioned it to be near the same size of the BGreen, and it seems to me that the Deimos could still mount slightly larger beam/beam glows. The problem now is (judging from the Hecate above), the terslash looks to be about 2x as thick as an AAA, and that's kinda impotent looking.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: TacOne on December 07, 2010, 09:25:29 am
I agree; the terslash looks a tad too thin.

The others look good though.

Personally, I like the thinner beams. Firstly because they look less silly, and secondly because they feel more scalpel-like that way. Neat little cuts that cut ships to pieces .
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Psychonaut on December 07, 2010, 11:01:11 am
.....secondly because they feel more scalpel-like that way. Neat little cuts that cut ships to pieces .

That is exactly, what i wanted to say ... but was not able to translate  :D
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Droid803 on December 07, 2010, 02:48:36 pm
The TerSlash in particular is much too small on the Hecate's WTFHUGE beam dish (and the Colossus's WTFEVENHUGER beam dish). Screw the Deimos for having such a tiny turret. I'd rather have it look slightly strange (too big) on one ship than dinky and underwhelming on three ships.

BGreen could stand to get a bit bigger, seeing as it never had a size issue to begin with, not a big deal either way.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on December 07, 2010, 03:45:03 pm
The default BGreen's actual beam was wider than the Aeolus and it doesn't even kill them in one hit, so yes, it did have a size issue.

The Hecate's beam dishes are all a bit too big anyway, just huge targets to destroy, really.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Droid803 on December 07, 2010, 04:11:03 pm
...the Retail BGreen was that big?

Hm, yeah...maybe I (or someone) should go shrinkitize the TerSlash turrets on the Hecate or something...
It doesn't make much sense for them to be as big as a BGreen turret anyway.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: headdie on December 07, 2010, 04:14:32 pm
The problem is that changes the size of the object making it more difficult to hit
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Droid803 on December 07, 2010, 04:15:46 pm
Right now they're actually rather larger than the turrets on the retail one, I don't see that being too much of a problem (in fact it might even be better)
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Kolgena on December 07, 2010, 04:17:10 pm
Regardless, I still think Terslashes need to be bigger than they are now.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Qent on December 07, 2010, 04:25:34 pm
The default BGreen's actual beam was wider than the Aeolus and it doesn't even kill them in one hit, so yes, it did have a size issue.

The Hecate's beam dishes are all a bit too big anyway, just huge targets to destroy, really.
If you reduce the size of the beam itself below retail, then you'll run into the problem of what looks like empty space killing your fighter.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: General Battuta on December 07, 2010, 04:37:29 pm
The default BGreen's actual beam was wider than the Aeolus and it doesn't even kill them in one hit, so yes, it did have a size issue.

The Hecate's beam dishes are all a bit too big anyway, just huge targets to destroy, really.
If you reduce the size of the beam itself below retail, then you'll run into the problem of what looks like empty space killing your fighter.

No you won't. Beam width can be set in tables independent of the visual effect.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Qent on December 07, 2010, 06:37:28 pm
If you reduce the size of the beam itself below retail, then you'll run into the problem of what looks like empty space killing your fighter.

No you won't. Beam width can be set in tables independent of the visual effect.
That's exactly why you will. MVP tables keep the "actual" beam width at retail while the visual effect looks shrunken.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: General Battuta on December 07, 2010, 06:38:37 pm
If you reduce the size of the beam itself below retail, then you'll run into the problem of what looks like empty space killing your fighter.

No you won't. Beam width can be set in tables independent of the visual effect.
That's exactly why you will. MVP tables keep the "actual" beam width at retail while the visual effect looks shrunken.

Hrm, you may have a point. Though said widths could be adjusted, it would technically impact retail gameplay.
Title: Re: MVP Beams
Post by: Hades on December 07, 2010, 09:39:41 pm
Regardless, I still think Terslashes need to be bigger than they are now.
If they're made any bigger, they'll be 'out of scale' so to speak, with the other beams. Their damage isn't enough to suggest it being much bigger (or even really comparable to the BGreen in size).

Really, the terslash and lterslash are the closest beams the Terran's have to being pulse beams, which are fast firing yet low damaging beams, which wouldn't exactly make much sense being comparable to something like the BGreen.