Hard Light Productions Forums

FreeSpace Releases => Mission & Campaign Releases => Topic started by: TopAce on September 17, 2010, 11:22:34 am

Title: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: TopAce on September 17, 2010, 11:22:34 am
(http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/9823/moddbheader.jpg)
You can't see the end until it comes to you

OFFICIAL STATEMENT (Added September 23, 2010)
Due to the immense dislike some members have expressed regarding writing, I decided to keep the files withdrawn from public viewing for now. I will work on another "more digestible" campaign, one that requires less writing competence to pull off. If I release that campaign, and its writing doesn't receive such harsh feedback, I will restart working on Descendants of Sol and release a new, improved version. It will not happen in the near future, though.

The section below is to be treated as outdated, as the files are no longer available.

DESCRIPTION
The following deals with the mod's story outline. Note that this campaign is not played in the FreeSpace universe. Treat the below description with that in mind.

By the beginning of the 22nd century, humanity had traveled outside the Sol System, and terraformed and colonized two planets in the Alpha Centauri System. These planets served as a foundation to a new civilization that could not evolve on the highly polluted Earth. The governmental factions were eager to expand their territory by discovering jump nodes to more remote systems such as Delta Serpentis. However, the planet Yartis, the more populous of the two colonized worlds, now holds perils that endanger the whole of humanity.

As a recruit of the Solarian Alliance Navy, you are stationed on board one of the many space stations orbiting Earth. Your official duty is police action, but you must find your own aims first. The world around you is unknown to you, and you are not sure how you can become a constructive member of it.

In Descendants of Sol, the player will find himself in a dystopian future where moral and religious values and individual merits are devaluated. The circumstances do not allow the restoration of these old values. There are always more practical considerations that keep these ideas aside.

Descendants of Sol is a campaign for FreeSpace 2 Open using many new features implemented by the Source Code Project team and numerous mods (including user-made ships, effects, and music).

FURTHER INFO
Grammar Checkers: bigchunk1, Klaustrophobia, starwolf1991
Number of Missions: 37 campaign missions. After the first 20 introductory mission, you get to choose which branch you would like to continue with. There are 12 missions in the "military" branch and 5 missions for the "character" branch. 4 standalone missions are also included (2 cut content, 1 training, and 1 "made just for fun"). This accumulates to 41 missions altogether.
Mods Used: Several, see the accompanying readme for a complete list, with credits
Recommended Build: 3.6.12 Final or newer, Inferno build.

NOTES
F5: Friendly fighters
F6: Friendly bombers
F7: Hostile fighters
F8: Hostile bombers
F9: Mission critical craft

INSTALLATION
Descendants of Sol is installable in the usual way. If you don't know what this "usual way" entails, the accompanying readme gives you a lot of details, explanation, and helpful links.

And remember to create a new pilot file! This cannot be emphasized enough.

DOCUMENTATION
The mod comes with three documents: a readme file, a gameplay guide, and a complete walkthrough. These files can be found in the /documentation folder of the downloaded archive.

TROUBLESHOOTING
For a list of possible errors and their remedies, see the readme file.

This section will be continuously updated, based on user feedback, to complement the readme.

Checksums:
Code: [Select]
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace 2\SolSystem\DescendantsofSol.vp' ... 433 files
Code: [Select]
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace 2\SolSystem\DescendantsofSol.vp' with a checksum of 0xbe288da7
Code: [Select]
MD5 Hash Number of DescendantsofSol.vp is 68F55BDA54F8FC2EEE0B101605A38539
DOWNLOADS
HOTFIXES
PLANNED CHANGES FOR NEXT PATCH
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 17, 2010, 11:23:45 am
Awesome. Crosslinking from the BP ModDB page as soon as the download is up.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Rodo on September 17, 2010, 11:30:25 am
AWWH NOOUSSS, had to be released while my mobo was in repairs :mad:

Anyways... this is one of those campaigns I was looking forward, I'll play it asap.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Shivan Hunter on September 17, 2010, 11:32:40 am
dayum

I now have a choice

LOD my model, or play new campaign...

LOD my model, or play new campaign...

...

I most play a campaign :D

Dling now!
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Darius on September 17, 2010, 11:35:00 am
Arrggh! Was just about to go to bed too. I must play this!
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Mobius on September 17, 2010, 11:47:47 am
I'm downloading it right now. I have been following the last dev phase for quite some time, and I have great expectations. I can't wait to find out if it's the best campaign in circulation. :)
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 17, 2010, 11:52:37 am
I can't wait to find out if it's the best campaign in circulation. :)

I have no doubt it'll be great, but let's not ruin the fun by turning this into a ridiculous pissing match. It's not a zero-sum game, everyone's free to like what they like, and we should all be glad we're getting so many good campaigns. The more the merrier, and the more each campaign helps out others, the more players the community as a whole will attract and retain. TopAce put a ton of hard work into this and I think he'd prefer it be judged on its own merits.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Mobius on September 17, 2010, 11:58:56 am
Sure, sure.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 17, 2010, 11:59:40 am
Sure, sure.

Thanks. Sorry if I came off too harsh, I just want everybody to realize we're in this together.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Madcat on September 17, 2010, 02:53:43 pm
In for the kill!!! ... uhm, download I mean!   ;7
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: 0rph3u5 on September 17, 2010, 04:25:19 pm
more playing or more FREDing/writing.... You've got me faceing a difficult choice here...

(although it is not quite that difficult - I've not planned to finish anything anytime soon)

Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Spoon on September 17, 2010, 04:52:46 pm
I.. really
Sorry but...

What is this, I don't even.

(http://i53.tinypic.com/flx15v.png)
I mean...

really?
 :blah:

This dialouge is so, so terribad that I warped out on the spot.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: achtung on September 17, 2010, 05:22:20 pm
http://freespacemods.net/download.php?view.642

There's a mirror, if you want to use it.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: TopAce on September 17, 2010, 05:26:41 pm
Can you fix the spelling mistake in the title?
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: achtung on September 17, 2010, 05:37:44 pm
Woops, it's fixed.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 17, 2010, 05:45:10 pm
Was this supposed to be locked? I unlocked it.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: achtung on September 17, 2010, 05:55:46 pm
Was this supposed to be locked? I unlocked it.

I highly doubt it was. If I was the one to lock it, I have no idea how I did.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Klaustrophobia on September 18, 2010, 04:03:22 pm
i finally contriubted something productive! :P
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: bigchunk1 on September 18, 2010, 09:16:47 pm
Glad this finally got released. Ace put a lot of great work/thought into it as well as the storyline.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: TopAce on September 19, 2010, 03:26:09 pm
What's up, people? Is everyone still playing it?
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Snail on September 19, 2010, 03:35:27 pm
Well for us who are still leeching off society, school just started. :(
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Shivan Hunter on September 19, 2010, 03:36:13 pm
Honestly, I can't really get past a lot of the dialogue. See the post by Spoon above.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: 0rph3u5 on September 19, 2010, 03:38:53 pm
What's up, people? Is everyone still playing it?

I'm stuck in "Wounded Knee" ... right now I'm riping campaign and mission file apart to see what I've missed
Spoiler:
cant be able to destory that alien cruiser in time

I must admit that even given the universe's exposition, some of the dialogue really strikes me as strange... I guess I will have to ask you for a comment on one or the other thing once I'm done...
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: TopAce on September 19, 2010, 03:40:28 pm
Orpheus:
Spoiler:
Use your secondaries like mad. That's all you need to do in that mission.

In response to the dialogs: I've written varied characters with their own styles. You must be referring to Admiral Mecken who

Spoiler:
isn't up to her task, makes rushed decisions, and takes no responsibility for anything.

Remember: This isn't like FreeSpace. I could have stuck to the ordinary recipe and ended up with something known. I chose not to do that. Apparently, I overdid it at places. I took some risks, and I've been aware of it all along.

And what about the missions themselves? Any technical problems?

Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: ssmit132 on September 19, 2010, 09:35:40 pm
Certainly a breath of fresh air. :) The last mission I was on was the one where
Spoiler:
you have to prevent the Vasudans from recapturing... whatever the Typhon was called
and it seems a bit tricky. I'm determined to crack it though. I must also say that:
Spoiler:
I'm very eager to find out what happened to the player character in those two months inside the subspace tunnel.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 19, 2010, 09:37:33 pm
The dialogue is simply bad. Really, really bad. Take the sample Spoon posted earlier. Nobody's going to actually talk like that, hell, they probably won't talk half as much because of comms discipline. No one will insult a superior, much less a flag-rank officer, to their face like that. That's personal and professional suicide, regardless of whether you're right. Good officers can end their careers simply by questioning a superior indirectly or warning their superior's superiors of their incompetence. To their face, on an open channel? No organization can allow that behavior. Your life is over. Enjoy the cell assuming they don't shoot you; conduct unbecoming, failure to obey direct orders, cowardice in the face of the enemy, and probably a half-dozen other charges.

But that's really the tip of the iceburg. People don't talk like this. I'm having extremely difficult time taking the campaign seriously on a number of concepts like a planetary blockade too, but it's the dialogue that really kills it because it doesn't sound like something anyone would actually say.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Axem on September 19, 2010, 10:03:51 pm
This is sort of hard for me to post. I don't mean any ill will toward you or trying to tell you how to make a campaign, but this campaign is not at all what I was expecting.

I have played it from start to finish. Both branches, though I took the Character Branch first through the campaign, then did the Military Branch through the tech room.

I want to start off by saying this was quite the undertaking. A lot of effort went into this campaign, building a universe mostly from scratch. Everything was reworked. New weapons, new tech room entries, all the fluff that you'd expect with a large campaign like this.

I am afraid this is where its going to get nasty. I have total respect for you and what you've created, but here is my honest opinion.

The missions were a mixed bunch. A lot of them were simplistic, and there's nothing wrong with that. I enjoy blowing stuff up. :) But others were minutes and minutes of talking and talking and the player doing one action to justify him being there. There are missions that go up to 8 or 9 minutes in length where the player does nothing. All he does listen to people talk. I could go mission by mission, describing all the things that annoyed me, but at the risk of sounding mean and uncultured, that would fill up quite a bit.I'll just go through stuff that really stood out. Spoilers abound!

Spoiler:
I think my fears started to come up in the opening cutscene. I am treated to a picture of a planet as subtitles describe the situation. I was a little annoyed at how that's all the camera movement there was, but the thing that hit me was the line "It's propaganda." That started DoS's way of telling me how to feel.

All throughout the campaign I get messages in second person telling me that "You like the sound of these guys" or "The Admiral's words do not affect you." To quote Futurama (of all things), "You just cant have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel ANGRY!" Why am I being told this? Why can't I come to the conclusion that these guys are giant assholes or if they're sent by God. "Show, don't tell", is a big rule in writing.

Speaking of writing... When I was testing WoD for Spoon, I complained to him that his chatter wasn't strict or military at all. But as I played through, the entire mood of the universe felt right for that level of "light" chatter. But here the writing... it's as if everyone is a complete and total jerk. The dialogue is so unprofessional and at times, painful to read. I didn't feel as if I was in the military at all, more like a part of a mob led by the scum of humanity. If that's the sort of thing you were going for, bravo. I couldn't identify with anyone, not even the player character (especially during the character branch).

I don't see how humanity got as far as it did with this level of hostility amongst itself. You've got pilots saying things that would get them thrown out of the military, you've got Admirals who casually dismiss the value and importance of anyone under their command. How has the military not devolved into a total state of anarchy? Judging from the "protestors" it looks like its almost at that stage.

Anyway, here comes my critique of the story as a whole.

It started off alright. Rebels from the virus-ridden planet are waging war against the iron fisted military. Soon we meet the Vasudans and first contact doesn't go too bad (we're not killing each other YET). But then we start fighting and it starts going down hill.

I think what sealed my opinion on the campaign came at The Return. So we're finally able to target Vasudan fighters. We kill a wing of 8 fighters. I was sort of pumped! The story wasn't doing it for me, so I was hoping for some mindless action would get me going. Then a Vasudan corvette jumps in 10km away and Command says "I want this to be a fair fight." and sends in his own corvette. So I get 5 minutes of watching two corvettes blob spam each other. If that wasn't annoying enough, I got a training message saying "Use of time compression can screw up the mission balance."

I thought it was cute the first time I saw a message telling me to use time compression because the rest of the mission will take awhile. But really now, you're making me do nothing for 5 minutes! There's barely any chatter, there's no beams, no missiles, nothing exciting happening and you're suggesting that I spend my time doing nothing. WHY?

When I hit Dealing in Extremes, I was sure this was going to be the payoff. From the briefing, this looked like the archetypical moral dilemma. I am ordered to murder refugees infected with the virus. This is where I am allowed to exercise my own choice and decide if I really want to be part of this tyrannical force, right? No, the very first line of the mission comes from the player character saying that we should split up to finish them off faster. The PC then goes on to say remember to use your secondaries. Since it's clear I have no choice in the matter, I partake in the slaughter of innocents. The last transport attempts to surrender, but command says "Orders are Orders." So we're ordered to stick around in case more refugees dare arrive, and half my wingmen start protesting these orders (Nice job protesting AFTER you've become an accessory to murder, but to their merit at least THEY come around to it at all). They are then declared traitors, and I have to kill them! And then when I return to base I get a medal, Unpitying Killer! Are you serious? Could I be told that this military is worse than Hitler any more heavy handedly?

Well from the training message telling me that I couldn't believe what just happened, I... couldn't believe what just happened. The private log made it clear that maybe I shouldn't have done that. My hopes were starting to get up a little higher. And in the next mission, I saw it was time to choose the branch. Character or military. I went for character first. I thought "ok, this is where my character realizes that serving an evil and corrupt organization is wrong, and I will atone myself by aiding the people I murdered."

But no, the character branch is about going deep into Vasudan territory along side a very elite squadron, and orchestrating the death of one of the elite squadron's members so that I can take his place. You weren't kidding when you said THAT was the darker path. And then when I did "kill" him, and I joined this squad, the campaign ends. Zero resolution to the war. Zero resolution to the virus. Zero resolution to everything. Well at least I got a campaign completion medal anyway.

Ok, maybe the Military Branch will give me some more closure. I'll warn you I didn't play this in sequence. It was hard to keep track of which missions I played before without any mission numbers in the file names. But I did get through it! So the first mission throws me into a completely new character, Overlord Lahma. At first I thought he was a Vasudan, since so far we had just seen two races. Now there was that mystery ship in the subspace tunnel, but since this ship didn't look like it at all. I thought it was some elite Vasudan fighter. So after single handedly killing 3 wings, a cruiser and a science ship, it becomes apparent that I am some very powerful third race bent on ensuring that the Terrans and Vasudans die horrible deaths (I started calling this race Shivan-Overlords at this point).

Then we get a mission chasing after refugees into a nebula only to find everything is derelict and I keep feeling weak and then normal. Then we get some passing mention an antidote has been found for this virus (those refugees could've waited! but, NO, they were too early!). Then we get battle of the moon part 1 and part 2. Then we get a "kill the protestors" mission again, only for the Vasudans to show up and then the military and the protestors join forces to conquer the alien threat. Then right after, we go back to killing each other. Sigh... There's also this prophet guy who gets a quote attributed to him later.

Then we head into the home stretch of the campaign! We make peace with the Vasudans by attacking suspected Anti-Human Vasudans and show gestures of good will! Then the Vasudans take us to a cargo depot, where Shivan-Overlords (where I am told they are called the Manipulators) suddenly come out of nowhere and kill everyone. Then I watch as my command ship is destroyed by the Manipulators! Then I watch as the last remnants of Terrans and Vasudans make it to some large complex with other alien ships (including Shivan Ships). And then we pan to a Knossos and... end campaign I assume. I didn't play this in the campaign room, so maybe I'm missing something. But that IS the last mission and there is no debrief.

I guess it's a cliffhanger...?

Sorry if that comes off as rant-ish, but I couldn't take the campaign seriously after Dealing in Extremes... Everything felt just so empty. My actions did nothing at all. That's fine for a cog in the machine sort of thing, but it left me without any sense of accomplishment, which I think it important to the player to feel.

I think the worst part of it was, this was not the campaign I was expecting. Maybe that's why I am not a fan of it. When I first heard of it, I thought it would be like Deus Ex in SPAAAACE. Iron fisted government with a virus-ridden population on the verge of rioting. All I got was
Spoiler:
FS1 remade with Nightmares instead of Shivans.
I thought the branches would be based on the morality of the player. Either the player must choose to enforce the law that he swore to uphold or join the people being oppressed. All I got was being a cold blooded killer with zero choice in the matter.

If you're looking for suggestions on how to improve this... I don't know how you could improve it. I don't know how you wrote the story, but I think you need to find someone who can go "This stinks" to your face and pitch them ideas. Then when they say "that's awful" you rework it until they go "that's better!" Don't underestimate that power. BP2 had high expectations, but the WiH alpha that Darius made... well. It was reported to be pretty bad. The story was very different from what it is today. The BP team saw how bad it was and told Darius how bad it was. He took it well and they refined the whole thing into the great experience that it is today.

So don't give up on making campaigns! Find a way to get feedback quickly and effectively. Get some outspoken, active beta testers who haven't participated in the developement and can have a fresh view on the missions and storyline. You've got the technical talent, you just need to practice the literary talent!
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: SpardaSon21 on September 19, 2010, 10:49:39 pm
So, let me ask you how you really feel about this campaign.

Is it worse than SGWP2?
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Woolie Wool on September 19, 2010, 10:51:15 pm
I'm only a few missions in, but this is not shaping up to be a particularly good mod so far.

First of all, you call it an original universe, but in every other respect aside from dialogue and fluff, this is just more FS. It's not like FS, it doesn't resemble FS, it is FS. You could change the date to 2340 and the Solarian Alliance to some regional Terran faction of the Reconstruction Era and very little would change. You've got the same ships, with the same models, and the same names, which handle in pretty much the same manner and are balanced in the same way. An original universe is a chance to be really adventurous, to break the mold of FreeSpace gameplay and make a game that plays in an entirely different manner. You've squandered this opportunity and essentially dolled up a rather bland post-FS1 campaign up with some new fluff and dialogue. You didn't even change FS's ridiculous way of designating capital ship types.

Second of all, your "grammar checkers" were sleeping on the job. I can deal with the occasional misspelling. I've put typos into mods before, although I was embarrassed when people pointed them out. But I cannot deal with completely nonexistent words like "resultative" and "boomy" (to describe an explosive and not bad bass from a speaker system).

Grammar aside, the dialogue in general is annoying. Everyone is a huge dick for absolutely no reason at all, in such a manner that they could not believably work together as a military acting in such an unprofessional manner. I know you're going for a "dystopian" angle, but military people don't act like that. If they do act like that, they get what soldiers call a "big chicken dinner" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Conduct_Discharge#Bad_Conduct_.28BCD.29), which actually has nothing to do with chicken and everything to do with going to military prison for a while and getting thrown out. A certain degree of professionalism, cooperation, and not being what servicemen call a "****bird" is required for a military to even exist, because it's a hierarchical organization that requires hundreds of thousands of people to work together in a very coordinated manner. None of it is believable at all; I can almost see the script laid out in front of me on my desk while playing.

Many of the effects look like they came from a retail mod and would have been ugly even then. There's hideous PCX banding, huge blobby fuzzy shots with no shape, and horrifying mission backgrounds.

I'll agree with Axem on the mission design, especially in regards to talky missions. You want to introduce people with cool stuff going on, drop them in medias res, and make a good first impression. You can do all the deep storytelling business later. Blue Planet 2 did it right--it started with a simple and very effective sequence where you saw the handful of UEF ships desperately charge into the teeth of the much larger GTVA force. There wasn't a whole lot of dialogue, because not much was needed. The visuals themselves showed how large and powerful the GTVA was and how small and outclassed the UEF was. Descendants of Sol makes the worst possible first impression by starting off with a static screen overlaid with blandly written exposition, and then a few fighters shooting each other in an empty region of space, and then eight solid minutes of making me follow a fighter much faster than mine around (mashing the burners every few seconds while trying to read all the huge infodumps got tedious fast) while people are talking very fast, so fast you could barely keep up with it if it had voice acting (and it doesn't) and wallowing in the cheesiest, most ridiculous gloomy degenerate grimdark "cynical" nonsense I have ever seen. It's not just boring, it outright pissed me off, and I was relieved when a few bandits warped in so everyone would shut the hell up.

"George [Lucas], you can type this ****, but you sure as hell can't say it."
--Harrison Ford
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: TopAce on September 20, 2010, 01:36:41 am
I don't have time to respond to all this, so it's one question for now.

Woolie: What misspellings? :lol:

I'll respond to many of these when I come back from school.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: TopAce on September 20, 2010, 11:08:52 am
Okay, all the comments have to do with the campaign's basic setup. Since you could not see the world through the eyes of the characters, you found their motives out of place and what they say absurd. It doesn't matter where the story went, if the basic is so alien to your liking, you wouldn't have liked it anyway, so it all collapsed before you finished mission 1. It all collapsed in the earliest planning stage.

Had I chosen a different premise, it all would have been different. The story would have been much different and the characters would have been different - possibly it would have been much more likable had I chosen a more usual, worn-out premise. I took a risk which I knew was there. I'm not a doctor to cure a patient or an engineer to build a bridge that must be done to the letter. I tried it, I didn't work. Such is life.

Next time I'll remember not to do anything too unusual. That's the conclusion I can take from all this. (Or if I do try anything radically different than what people are used to, it won't be a 37-mission-long campaign).

I will request that this thread be locked, and I'll delete all the mirrors. Feedback won't be better than this.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 20, 2010, 11:16:12 am
Locked by request.

TopAce handled the criticism well. A dialogue rewrite might save it, though, are you sure you want to delete everything?
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: The E on September 20, 2010, 06:05:33 pm
Okay, all the comments have to do with the campaign's basic setup. Since you could not see the world through the eyes of the characters, you found their motives out of place and what they say absurd. It doesn't matter where the story went, if the basic is so alien to your liking, you wouldn't have liked it anyway, so it all collapsed before you finished mission 1. It all collapsed in the earliest planning stage.

I would have to disagree. It's not the basic concept that I have trouble with, it's solely the execution that has flaws, as pointed out by NGTM-1R, Axem and Woolie.

Locked by request.

TopAce handled the criticism well. A dialogue rewrite might save it, though, are you sure you want to delete everything?

I am not certain that "deleting everything" is really "handling it well". Sure, this campaign was flawed, but it wasn't so bad as to deserve a summary deletion in my opinion.

Unlocked, because I think that people deserve a right to discuss this further. Be warned, however, that flaming will lead to lockage.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Axem on September 20, 2010, 06:34:15 pm
Okay, all the comments have to do with the campaign's basic setup. Since you could not see the world through the eyes of the characters, you found their motives out of place and what they say absurd. It doesn't matter where the story went, if the basic is so alien to your liking, you wouldn't have liked it anyway, so it all collapsed before you finished mission 1. It all collapsed in the earliest planning stage.

Well I didn't reject the campaign in the first mission. Everyone has their own style and everyone is not some literary genius. I could accept the concept. I can see the foreshadowing for the third race. Even if the endings were bad, in my opinion, there were many chance the campaign could have redeemed itself. It just felt like there was wasted potential.

Had I chosen a different premise, it all would have been different. The story would have been much different and the characters would have been different - possibly it would have been much more likable had I chosen a more usual, worn-out premise. I took a risk which I knew was there. I'm not a doctor to cure a patient or an engineer to build a bridge that must be done to the letter. I tried it, I didn't work. Such is life.

Next time I'll remember not to do anything too unusual. That's the conclusion I can take from all this. (Or if I do try anything radically different than what people are used to, it won't be a 37-mission-long campaign).

No, that's completely missing the point! We don't want the same old same old. Wings of Dawn is just about as far removed from FreeSpace as you can get, and everyone enjoyed it! It's even got its own board on HLP. Even looking at "traditional" FreeSpace campaigns, Ransom's works doesn't have "a more usual, worn-out premise." I think the community has gotten a little jaded to worn out premises, they want something new and original.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 20, 2010, 06:46:16 pm
As I observed over PM, it's not the setting. From the bat**** insanity of the GRIMDARK grim darkness of 40k to more realistic dystopias in cyberpunk or Rifts, I'm down with the dystopian oppressive state. But, as I also observed, a dystopia isn't going to take what happened well.

The dialogue is, furthermore, just clunky. There's some weirdnesses of grammar and spelling, but there's also an incredible degree of slavish adherence to the rules of sentence construction and the like that results in a lack of flow; people would not naturally speak this way, certainly not under pressure.

There's nothing wrong with the story ideas, but there's a lot that misfired in execution.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Sushi on September 20, 2010, 07:06:43 pm
Haven't played it yet, but I'm looking forward to it. I'll withhold judgment on the campaign, as well as its critics, until after I do. :)
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Mongoose on September 20, 2010, 09:02:45 pm
The dialogue is, furthermore, just clunky. There's some weirdnesses of grammar and spelling, but there's also an incredible degree of slavish adherence to the rules of sentence construction and the like that results in a lack of flow; people would not naturally speak this way, certainly not under pressure.
I didn't get a chance to download the campaign before the sources were nixed, but from the screenshot Spoon posted, I think that's a good assessment.  Putting the strange grammar aside, the overall language being used was very stilted: it felt an awful like a non-native speaker performing a very rigid and literal translation, creating something that was technically comprehensible yet lacked all of the idioms and mannerisms you'd hear in normal speech.  TopAce, I feel like getting a native English speaker to look over things and tweak the flow of the dialog would go a long way toward alleviating that area of concern.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 20, 2010, 09:50:18 pm
The dialogue is, furthermore, just clunky. There's some weirdnesses of grammar and spelling, but there's also an incredible degree of slavish adherence to the rules of sentence construction and the like that results in a lack of flow; people would not naturally speak this way, certainly not under pressure.
I didn't get a chance to download the campaign before the sources were nixed, but from the screenshot Spoon posted, I think that's a good assessment.  Putting the strange grammar aside, the overall language being used was very stilted: it felt an awful like a non-native speaker performing a very rigid and literal translation, creating something that was technically comprehensible yet lacked all of the idioms and mannerisms you'd hear in normal speech.  TopAce, I feel like getting a native English speaker to look over things and tweak the flow of the dialog would go a long way toward alleviating that area of concern.

Uh he did get people to look over the dialogue, three people in fact:

Quote
Grammar Checkers: bigchunk1, Klaustrophobia, starwolf1991
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: bigchunk1 on September 20, 2010, 09:54:38 pm
I remember playing the campaign Transcend. I remember thinking to myself how silly it was that I could only select one load out.  How menial the affairs of Kappa wing were. I remember laughing to myself saying, "Are they just going to throw pirate fighters at me for the entire campaign?! This is fricken dumb. I am sick of scanning cargo, following Omikron wing, and doing nothing. I can't believe someone made this... "

I left the campaign alone for a week. Finally, during the weekend when I had the free time, I humored myself and fired up Transcend again. I didn't leave that chair until the day subsided and the entire universe was collapsing around me. "Make for the node, we must reach Vega!" I remember the Generation, the corvette that would never go away. The betrayal and infighting caused by the Vasudans, pirates and GTVA. Near the end it was like one big free for all of chaos, and the best thing you could hope for was to make it out alive. Transcend blew me away. It was the first FSO campaign I completed with many more to come.
     
I'm going to say this just to be the first guy to say it. I really don't think DOS was that bad. I'm not saying you all aren't nice or anything like that. I'm saying you all missed out on a great campaign. I remember when Ace gave me the raw unedited work with no grammatical improvements whatsoever I played through the character branch straight. I remember reading the last few missions and thinking about how twisted the ending was; It gave me chills. The story is certainly not standard, and that's what I like about it. Like an old unturned piano, it's not perfect but it has character, and I truly believe TopAce put some personality into this work.
   
I remember giving another innovative campaign praise by saying that it makes you feel like anything is possible. Ace, like Ransom or BP or heck I'm going to say it FelixJim's campaign, tapped into one of my primary sources of intrigue in a campaign story. That slow withering away of reality until you get to something raw and human. By the end of the campaign the world behaves as something so distorted and strange it must be happening light-years away on the planet Yartis, far off into the reaches of space. It is quite entertaining to 'tumble down the rabbit hole'.

I think the issue surrounding this campaign is its anticipation. From the posts I have read, many of you expected fire to burst from the hands of this one man show. Some even declared as criticism that it was not what they expected. I think surprise in its purest form is a positive thing to experience in a campaign. I don't think I would have predicted the ending if I were challenged.

When I began to actually play DOS. I barely knew who TopAce was and the only thing I knew about the campaign was the file size. I had no expectations. To paint this thread with a little more grey, I am going to share some of my positive experiences with DOS.

Spoiler:
I immediately grew to like the weapons mechanics. TopAce completely reworked the way weapons behaved from the ground up to produce new strategies for primary weapon combinations as well as secondary weapon strategies such as the long range 'patriot' anti-hull warhead. Something you are better off using against cruisers.

TopAce went to a music site titled www.freeplaymusic.com to grab the gems he used for the campaign. I thought they were well chosen to fit the mood for the particular missions. I recommend checking the site out yourself. I like the taste in music chosen for DOS.

The backgrounds I thought looked interesting, especially the areas with the eerie red sun. I thought it fit the mood of a plagued sector wrought with desperation and strife. Maybe I'm reading into it, but different things effect different people in different ways.

Each capitol ship class had its own carefully engineered system of defense. For instance, the Blade class cruiser is a narrow ship with wide broadsides chalk full of anti-fighter laser turrets. Such a design encourages the player to dodge and weave through the projectiles while completing mission objectives. The ship, without the assistance of long range weaponry, is a puzzle in itself to bring down. Ace paid special care to many small details such as these.

Some of the missions I found particularly interesting from a gameplay perspective. One such mission, involved Vasudan wings of bombers which had fighters warp later just behind them, or should I say just behind the player as he is shooting up the bombers. I found these little tactical dilemmas pretty amusing.

You might not be aware of this, but when I told Ace that I preferred to roll in a Rhea bomber with a Gatling cannon and bombs he sent me a reply and told me that the mission changes difficulty based on what ship you pick. For example: choosing a bomber will make cruisers and capital ships a greater threat. While choosing a fighter will make enemy pilots more skilled. I thought that was a nice touch to have the game adapt to the player's preferred play style.
 
       

And of course, I took a liking to all those philosophical dilemmas presented throughout the campaign. The indecision of the characters is used a tool to amplify the  profoundness of these dilemmas. I get the impression that this campaign is not meant as a simulated continuation of human society. Well that's how it starts anyways, but it ends as a human drama. Power plays between characters and events that continually shape the player's world are all pieced together to give you that edge of your seat feel. If the characters are not realistic, they are surrealistic: playing up to the drama of the campaign.


So bottom line, yes it is a bit cryptic because of the rough dialogue. There are many pages of text that could use another grammatical comb over. As it stands now, it's more like a book than a manuscript. You as the player must make a greater than average investment to understand the dialogue, understand the characters, understand the situations and the forces that pull on them in all directions. If you take that care I guarantee there is something interesting here to mull over. I noticed in Axem's post that there were aspects to the story that he enjoyed, and I claim his criticism was generated by his sheer interest in the story itself.


If you can get over the small gripes of imperfection and give DOS your naive attention, you will surely find there is something to be had in this campaign.   
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Mongoose on September 20, 2010, 11:03:33 pm
Uh he did get people to look over the dialogue, three people in fact:

Quote
Grammar Checkers: bigchunk1, Klaustrophobia, starwolf1991
No offense to said individuals, but I would then presume that they may have snoozed a bit on the job. :p

And I'm sure several of us would love to get our own take on the campaign, bigchunk, but unfortunately TopAce seems to have cut off access to it at the moment.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Hades on September 20, 2010, 11:38:24 pm
With all due respect, TopAce, you're taking the criticism rather immaturely by trying to delete every trace of it and act like none of it happened.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Firartix on September 21, 2010, 12:20:12 am
With Due Respect (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WithDueRespect) I don't care about comments and would like to try this since it seems original (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool).
And cool (at least on paper) - i really like the long campaigns, and the branch idea. And the hotkeys by type one. And moar i guess.
Plus i guess not anyone is able to make a cool campaign (at least i can't D:) and any and every campaign are somewhat nice.

THEREFORE ! I was really, really annoyed (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThisCannotBe) when i saw you deleted it, so I'd ask you to put the crappy download on mirrors AGAIN, or i'll be forced to take the other's word for it and say your campaign is definitely crap and useless, etc (and moar (and of course not just the campaign, you too (or maybe not)))

Be also warned that i'll trap you in TvTropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife) hell.
And don't say something childish like this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IDidWhatIHadToDo).
Or it'll send this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardScifiFleet) to kill you.
You can't win (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitledz0z4hgscrlv).

Edit: .... and because of the time it took me to read all this and link stuff, i'm going to be Late For School (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LateForSchool) ! Damn ya!
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Kusanagi on September 21, 2010, 12:23:44 am
I wanted to download and play this but it seems I cannot :( I always enjoy new takes on universes and characters.

That being said, TopAce, with over 6000 posts and being on the current team for four kickass mods, I expected you to handle criticism better. I'm really disappointed.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 21, 2010, 12:52:25 am
Someone just re-upload it already so we don't need to suffer "why'd you delete it? I'm disappointed" post. I think we all get the idea.


TopAce, you worked your ass off to put together this campaign. Let people play it. And just remember that you can't please everyone. No campaign ever will please everyone
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: TopAce on September 21, 2010, 01:11:47 am
I already said it in the previous post of mine that changing the whole concept would mean needing to change everything, and I won't risk re-releasing it just to see the exact same comments. You already decided you'd hate it, no matter what improvements are made between the two versions. It's unconscious.

Quote
TopAce, you worked your ass off to put together this campaign. Let people play it. And just remember that you can't please everyone. No campaign ever will please everyone

But if the overwhelming majority hates it, based on one and exclusively one aspect of anything, the light is shed differently.

Quote
That being said, TopAce, with over 6000 posts and being on the current team for four kickass mods, I expected you to handle criticism better.

I'm writing dialogs for none of these projects. FotG works with a strict prewritten script, at least as far as dialogs are concerned, Scroll is a well-organized project so others can fix strange things, and MG is dead. The number of projects I'm on has nothing to do with how much I can bear reading the same thing over and over again.

Quote
(and moar (and of course not just the campaign, you too (or maybe not)))

See? It's already the fhird page and there's already a personal attack in there. Ok, Firartix: I'm inviting you to a FRED contest. Let's see how quickly you cower off now.

Quote
With all due respect, TopAce, you're taking the criticism rather immaturely by trying to delete every trace of it and act like none of it happened.

I'm not acting as if it never happened. If someone asks directly: "Did you at one point make a campaign called Descendants of Sol?" I won't say no.

Since I replied using Quick Reply, I won't bother going back to the previous page, and I have to hurry to school now.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Firartix on September 21, 2010, 01:37:48 am
Quote from: Firartix
(and moar (and of course not just the campaign, you too (or maybe not)))

See? It's already the fhird page and there's already a personal attack in there. Ok, Firartix: I'm inviting you to a FRED contest. Let's see how quickly you cower off now

Did you become idiot just because of all that bad comments stuff, or can't you just read ?

Plus i guess not anyone is able to make a cool campaign (at least i can't D:) and any and every campaign are somewhat nice.

More seriously this was just some kind of mega-joke post. But since you don't seem to understand it, i guess i'll get right to the point.

I don't know what exactly made you want to delete your campaign from mirrors.
What exactly are you hoping for ? Everyone to say "Oooooh wait nooooo TopAce come back, your campaign is so supaaaaaar" ?
Just denying everything about the campaign even existing is not going anywere, so it's the only reason i can see... and it's incredibly childish (being 16y old, i guess you an consider this some kind of attack this time) - or coward (if you don't want to show other your work because afraid of more critisism)

That's exactly why i wanted you to change your mind. I wanted to play this, because it looks real nice, and you seemed to put a lot of work into this. Also wanted to made up some kind of idiot, stupid and meaningless opinion about this campaign as i always do.

But fine, let that work go to waste...  Not like i'm begging you or something.

Now i'm off this thread.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Mongoose on September 21, 2010, 02:06:33 am
I already said it in the previous post of mine that changing the whole concept would mean needing to change everything, and I won't risk re-releasing it just to see the exact same comments. You already decided you'd hate it, no matter what improvements are made between the two versions. It's unconscious.
How can you know we'll hate it if most of us didn't even get the chance to play it?  All my post was based on was a screenshot of some dialog from a single mission.  I don't know anything about the plot, or the mission design, or the modding you've done, or any of that.  And I'd like to know about it by playing the campaign, but I can't, because I don't have it.  I'm not the only person in that camp, either.  At least give everyone a chance to look at all the work you've done on this and form our own opinions.  I don't think anyone here wants to gang up on you.

And Firartix, please do the thread a favor and just shut up.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: karajorma on September 21, 2010, 04:26:18 am
Hmmmm. This looks like quite the mess. :(


Now I've got a request to close this thread but I'm not going to do it for several reasons.

1. Having worked with TopAce on MindGames I still consider him to be a very good FREDder. I have no doubt that technically the campaign is brilliant. For that reason alone I'd like to be able to look at it.

2. While the reviews have been for the most part critical there is certainly enough enough to the game that even some of those who didn't like it wanted more. So we're not talking about a complete flop here.

3. There are many people interested in playing this game and quite a few people like bigchunk1 who have said that they did enjoy playing it.


So no, I don't think this is a complete failure. No, I don't think everyone hated it cause it was too experimental. No, I don't think this could possibly be anywhere near as bad as SGWP2. And no, I don't think anyone would want TopAce to pull the download permanently.

Even if I believed this was a failed experiment the simple fact is you learn from your failures, sometimes more than your successes. And I've never believed that failures should be completely swept under the rug, if only to stop others making the same mistake. 
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 21, 2010, 04:27:39 am
I already said it in the previous post of mine that changing the whole concept would mean needing to change everything, and I won't risk re-releasing it just to see the exact same comments. You already decided you'd hate it, no matter what improvements are made between the two versions. It's unconscious.

Quote
TopAce, you worked your ass off to put together this campaign. Let people play it. And just remember that you can't please everyone. No campaign ever will please everyone

But if the overwhelming majority hates it, based on one and exclusively one aspect of anything, the light is shed differently.

Who cares what the majority thinks. If even ONE person has fun playing it, it's worth releasing dude.

You're going for something original, so put it out there. If after all is said and done, you consider it a failure. Then that's fine. Apply the lessons you learn to your next campaign. When I released my own campaign a few years back, it had fairly mixed reviews. But I didn't delete the thing, I just left it out there for people to try. Listen to the feedback, and apply the lessons you've learned to your next campaign.  Just because a few people gave you similar feedback doesn't mean that it's the ONLY type of feedback you're EVER going to get. Wouldn't it be better to get more information on what worked and what didn't?

And even the people who "hated" aspects of your campaign, I'm sure every one of them had fun at SOME point. They enjoyed some missions. They had fun blowing things up. Deleting your campaign implies it has zero value to ANYONE. When I seriously doubt that to be the case. Most people who play this game will find some value in it. And some people might love it.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 21, 2010, 06:53:19 am
I agree with Akalabeth. Also:

Quote
I already said it in the previous post of mine that changing the whole concept would mean needing to change everything, and I won't risk re-releasing it just to see the exact same comments.

All you need to do is find someone to go through and rewrite every single piece of dialogue. That may sound daunting, but it's easier than re-FREDding the whole thing. Make it a team effort, if dialogue's not your strength find somebody who's good at it.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: TopAce on September 21, 2010, 08:31:39 am
Here are some responses (without quote tags).

I pulled the campaign because I've grown tired to reading the same thing over and over again. It all comes down to dialogs, as if I had written a theatrical play, not a mod for a game. Nothing shouts "narrow field of view" more loudly than people commenting about one aspect of it all the time (respect to the few exceptions), without considering anything else. Okay: I got the message - even before The E decided to unlock it and let it all continue.

Akalabeth: mixed is a very moderate term to use here. Had I have to face a balanced ratio of likes/dislikes, it would still be up there. I was aware that some would find this too abstract to their likings. I just wasn't expecting this kind of imbalance. To reiterate: The core element of the campaign upsets people - The strength of political/social change I'm depicting here. You cannot see the motive of characters (drive force to raise in ranks, in this case) because you're assuming people will act in the same way as they would today. You are assuming that social relations are static and unchangeable, so it all comes down to something absurd.

Battuta: I don't want to "re-FRED" it. I'll make a new, FreeSpace campaign (actually I've had one in the works for a while now) with a basic setting people are far more comfortable with. In other words: It'll be less extreme, the characters would be a lot easier to relate to. I'm still convinced that working with a familiar environment, with more predictability will in itself help a lot in writing.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 21, 2010, 09:04:59 am
To reiterate: The core element of the campaign upsets people - The strength of political/social change I'm depicting here. You cannot see the motive of characters (drive force to raise in ranks, in this case) because you're assuming people will act in the same way as they would today. You are assuming that social relations are static and unchangeable, so it all comes down to something absurd.

No no no, you don't understand, and it's important that you see what's actually being criticized.

The strength of political/social change would be better if it were presented well. The problem is that the writing is not up to the task, and makes it feel somewhat comedic.

I can see what your setting is trying for, I like the concepts, I just bounce off the writing. You're making the failure out to be bigger than it is.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Shivan Hunter on September 21, 2010, 09:21:55 am
Here are some responses (without quote tags).

It all comes down to dialogs, as if I had written a theatrical play, not a mod for a game.

You've written a mod for a mostly singleplayer game that focuses on story as much as- and in some cases, more than- gameplay. The dialogue in a FS campaign has to be believable or the rest of the story falls apart. The rest of the story isn't the problem here- it's that the dialogue is too weak to hold it together. A simple dialogue rewrite (maybe some consulting from the BP team) would work wonders for your campaign.

Quote
You cannot see the motive of characters (drive force to raise in ranks, in this case) because you're assuming people will act in the same way as they would today. You are assuming that social relations are static and unchangeable, so it all comes down to something absurd.

No, we're not- at least not to the extent you seem to think. Take the dialogue Spoon posted for example, and your point about the Admiral being an incompetent moron who nobody trusts. You can present that point without making everyone act like a complete dick to everyone else. Maybe a captain or even a pilot would question her motives and competence. A lot more would be said to each other than to her face. But a pilot and an admiral both would not act completely unprofessionally, especially while on flight duty, and ESPECIALLY during an important mission.

For instance, take the mission banter from FS2, mission 3: "I can live with being a pawn if the game makes sense". Beta 2 (IIRC- it was Beta something) questions Command about the coordinates they were given. He all but calls Command an idiot- but here's the thing. He doesn't say that directly. He criticizes Command professionally, not personally, and implies that Command intentionally let Bosch go. But he only says that directly to the other pilots, where he's on roughly equal ground.

This isn't something that will be fixed by changing the setting, the plot or what have you, because none of those are the real problem. The characters and dialogue are what make a FS campaign, especially with the BP trend we're in right now, and if you have characters but develop them in such a way that they don't seem believable, that carries over into the rest of the immersion for the campaign.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 21, 2010, 09:25:31 am
A good example is the little pop-ups telling me how to feel. These need to go.

'Show, don't tell' is a key element of writing. You can't provide little instructions to the player on how they should react; you have to supply stimuli and let the player do the feeling on his or her own.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Shivan Hunter on September 21, 2010, 09:48:35 am
Ohhhh yes. Forgot about that... yeah, if anything ruins immersion for the player it's... what would those be called anyway? Stage directions? 'cause reading those is like hearing actors read out the stage directions.

[EDIT] if you must give the player a certain character, do most of it with what he says. If you must show what the character is thinking, do it like Transcend did: First person, not second person. The player (not the PC) being talked to in second person riuns all sense of immersion whatsoever.

Sound harsh, I know, and don't think I'm talking about your entire campaign here- there are a lot of redeeming factors- but that particular element just needs to be killed with fire.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: TopAce on September 21, 2010, 09:51:57 am
Battuta: Those popups aren't used very frequently. I used them whenever I felt they needed to complement what was just seen. I know about the "Show, don't tell" thing, and that's why I didn't provide lengthy biographies. I wanted this particular conversation to convey the message of being disorganization, chaos and debilitation, all because of your superior's inability to handle situations, and the fact that they were facing an unknown alien race face-to-face caused even more fear and divide. It didn't come across. This all wouldn't have been so had I decided to work with a perfectly organized stereotypical military without any personality, which I couldn't do because of the basic concept I was working with. Every time I create a new message, I'm trying to see events through the eyes of the character that's speaking, and wonder what s/he would say. Had I worked with a very different set of characters that are thrown into very different scenarios, the entire conversation would have been different, and that's what I've been trying to emphasize.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 21, 2010, 09:56:25 am
Quote
This all wouldn't have been so had I decided to work with a perfectly organized stereotypical military without any personality, which I couldn't do because of the basic concept I was working with.

What we're trying to get across is that this isn't the problem. You could have used the military you had (at least in my opinion) had the writing been better. And that's not a failure on your part, just something to work on.

Quote
Every time I create a new message, I'm trying to see events through the eyes of the character that's speaking, and wonder what s/he would say. Had I worked with a very different set of characters that are thrown into very different scenarios, the entire conversation would have been different, and that's what I've been trying to emphasize.

Your intent is admirable and I really respect it, but it was the execution that failed, not the basic ideas. Writing is a craft, like modeling or FREDding or coding. Bring in an expert.

You could have used the same characters in the same scenarios and made it work. They were not fundamentally flawed. You don't need to give up on the whole thing - I really love some of your concepts, like the machinations for promotion - but the execution wasn't there.

Think of it as a model with great concept art but a ton of Booleans and bad smoothing and weird geometry errors. It's not the basic idea that needs work, it's just the meat.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Kolgena on September 21, 2010, 10:00:00 am
At least make plans to re-release it in the future if you're not going to re-upload the current files now. I feel that a large part of the community sincerely wants to give your campaign a try.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 21, 2010, 10:04:47 am
At least make plans to re-release it in the future if you're not going to re-upload the current files now. I feel that a large part of the community sincerely wants to give your campaign a try.

Yes.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: TopAce on September 21, 2010, 10:07:09 am
Quote
Writing is a craft, like modeling or FREDding or coding. Bring in an expert.

Can you recommend someone?
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Dragon on September 21, 2010, 10:17:00 am
Battuta and Darius.  :)
Spoon is also a decent writer.
And of course, there are such famous writers as Blaise Russel (Sol: A History) or Ransom Arceihn (Transcend), but they may be unavailable.
In fact, you may look who wrote a campaign which you liked the most, check if he's still around and ask him if he could help.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 21, 2010, 10:18:43 am
Quote
Writing is a craft, like modeling or FREDding or coding. Bring in an expert.

Can you recommend someone?

Well I er. I've been cogitating on that point, and it is tricky.

And no I would not brand myself an expert. I think Ransom's better than me, I think The_E is quite good, but they're both very busy. It's hard to find people. *sigh*
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Sushi on September 21, 2010, 11:05:16 am
Stuff like this thread makes me very hesitant to even try. I don't want to have to find a dozen different expert consultants in order to make a campaign that people will enjoy, and I don't want it pecked to death the instant it gets out the door. If I ever do finish and release anything, I may just release it anonymously to avoid the shame of my amateurishness.

Yes, I said I'd withhold my comments until I played it, but seriously, this is depressing.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 21, 2010, 11:16:49 am
Stuff like this thread makes me very hesitant to even try. I don't want to have to find a dozen different expert consultants in order to make a campaign that people will enjoy, and I don't want it pecked to death the instant it gets out the door. If I ever do finish and release anything, I may just release it anonymously to avoid the shame of my amateurishness.

Yes, I said I'd withhold my comments until I played it, but seriously, this is depressing.

While I can empathize with that concern, unquestioning praise is equally dangerous, and in this case I believe the critics have advanced a good case.

You don't need to find a dozen different expert consultants - that's hyperbole - but you should always run your campaign by a few people. The fact that the writing issues here were not caught earlier is a failure in the testing process.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: bigchunk1 on September 21, 2010, 01:17:41 pm
Before this turns into a "Trash the grammar checkers thread", which may be deserved, let's be fair about the work I contributed to this campaign. Due to the large volume of writing in DOS and the limited time I had to work on the project, TopAce divided up the editing and assigned different missions to different people. Klaustraphobia and starwolf split the first 20 missions and I was to correct missions from the character branch, the military branch, and the techroom database entries.

I regret that I was not more proactive in the process, I did not even look at first 20 missions in their corrected form. I was the last to submit my work and further analysis of the grammar would easily postpone the campaign until November. Also there is the inevitable issue of grammar checkers disagreeing with one another which would require more correspondence which would further delay this release. I let it go. 

Now for those of you who played the first 10 missions and concluded that bigchunk1 is not a very helpful editor, I hope you now understand my frustration. Make no mistake, I welcome criticism on dialogue which could have been better improved from the body of missions I was assigned. I am aware no one has directly criticized what I have done over the other grammar checkers, but it seems that my incompetence is being implied from the work of others. 

I was hesitant to make this point until now, because when a group works on a campaign, everyone involved is responsible to make it the best they possibly can. Also, suffice to say pointing fingers is not constructive. However, I did quite enjoy the editing experience and I am interested to do more work of this nature in the future. It would be very difficult to reference DOS if it consistently gets flogged for poor grammar. I offered to go back and edit the first 20 missions, but Ace was not interested.

It makes me sad to read this thread. When spoon made that post right on the first page I tasted something ill in my mouth. What I regret about the release of this campaign the most is that the focus of the criticism is limited to something that is for the most part out of TopAce's control . He is not a native English speaker and was fully aware of it so he posted a thread asking for people to look over his campaign before release. He already made that effort people are now suggesting he should have made. He was very responsive to the needs of his grammar checkers and was overall good to work with. I now have the impression that we (the grammar checkers) let him down and did not allow him to properly present his creation to the community.

I'm sure what is getting to Ace the most is that hardly any comments have been made about DOS outside of grammar. For some reason a bandwagon started rolling and everyone hopped on. I would think that understanding the fact that TopAce is not a native speaker of English would allow people to gloss over these errors and see the campaign for what it is. This thread has turned into an overkill dwelling on something which I feel can be overlooked if effort is made. I'm really hoping someone out there played the campaign, saw something other than a spelling bee and just didn't bother to replay to this thread. I feel it is likely.

So yes, from now on focus those English related concerns towards the grammar checkers and maybe this thread will someday move beyond the issue. I wonder had we been more diligent, what this thread would be discussing instead.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 21, 2010, 01:27:03 pm
Quote
the most is that hardly any comments have been made about DOS outside of grammar. For some reason a bandwagon started rolling and everyone hopped on.

You misunderstand. The issue is not grammar - Spoon's campaign had some dodgy grammar yet was quite good. The issue is the writing. No amount of grammar polishing would have helped that.

However I agree that the campaign could still be of great interest to some, perhaps many players. It should remain available.

At the same time, we need to respect the right of our community members to speak their criticism honestly. Nothing in this thread so far has constituted flaming (well, mostly) and while it has been harsh, I hope it's also been constructive.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: TopAce on September 21, 2010, 02:01:47 pm
Some more specific examples would also help greatly to get a more accurate picture of what I did wrong. Like, what about the intro cutscene? I wrote three different iterations to it.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 21, 2010, 02:08:19 pm
Some more specific examples would also help greatly to get a more accurate picture of what I did wrong. Like, what about the intro cutscene? I wrote three different iterations to it.

Specific critique would indeed be excellent. I can do that. Let me get home from work and keep nagging me to do it.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Mobius on September 21, 2010, 02:29:45 pm
Can you recommend someone?

Javito1986.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 21, 2010, 02:55:26 pm
Some more specific examples would also help greatly to get a more accurate picture of what I did wrong. Like, what about the intro cutscene? I wrote three different iterations to it.

Has it been re-uploaded yet? I think you would get some more specific examples if more people could play it ;) Though, I myself wouldn't be able to play it for a number of days since I don't even have FS install at this time.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Klaustrophobia on September 21, 2010, 08:26:33 pm
to expand a little on what bigchunk is saying, the grammar editors did one thing and one thing only: edited the grammar within their assigned missions.  i haven't played the released campaign yet, so I also haven't seen the other editors' work.  i knew as i was participating that there were undoubtedly going to be inconsistencies between the sections.  i would have loved to have a collaborative effort with everyone across all missions to go beyond the grammar and smooth out the storytelling, but school started and that would have taken months.  i noticed some of the things being pointed out here, changed what i could without altering any of the content beyond clarity/grammar.  i REALLY didn't think it was going to draw this much reaction.  i thought the non-standard characters, military structure and whatnot was very unique and original, if not everyone's cup of tea, and that everyone would recognize that with a "good idea, but it's not my personal taste" rather than "people would NEVER act that way!!!1"  like bigchunk, i had never heard of this mod before i stumbled across the thread asking for help.  if this ever gets reposted and new people get to play it, don't play it expecting something in the style of FS2 or even any of the other mods.

as for the "show, don't tell," i know what you mean.  it can probably be improved on, but i'm not sure that it can ever be completely done for this mod.  this is a dark story about the journey of the PC to becoming a cold instrument of death.  it's not supposed to be feel-good, and trying to guide feel-good players is just not going to work.

TopAce, if you have plans to work toward a re-release and change up the writing, let me know.  if i have any time (and that's a pretty big if) i'd love to help.  i don't want to see this go down in flames because of the way the story was told.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 21, 2010, 11:15:55 pm
as for the "show, don't tell," i know what you mean.  it can probably be improved on, but i'm not sure that it can ever be completely done for this mod.  this is a dark story about the journey of the PC to becoming a cold instrument of death.  it's not supposed to be feel-good, and trying to guide feel-good players is just not going to work

I think this critique is misguided in that another recent mod attempted the same kind of story arc and largely, I daresay, succeeded. The concept is not fundamentally flawed, it's the execution that went wrong.

The problem here is that this doesn't come off as a dark story about the journey of the PC to becoming a cold instrument of death.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 22, 2010, 12:29:11 am
Okay, I've tried to remain reasonably civil, but with the grammar checkers and others apparently not able to read the original criticisms it's time to give 'em both barrels because nothing else is getting through. Yes, the grammar is awful and too perfect at the same time, but Axem, myself, and Woolie also presented QUITE A FEW OTHER CONCERNS BESIDES GRAMMAR. Bigchunk, you don't get it. Klaustrophobia, you don't get it either. Go back and read the original postings again.

No military organization could function in this fashion. The rules of acceptable behavior within a military organization have changed very little since the Middle Ages. They are not born of culture, but of the fact you are fighting very basic biological instincts for self-preservation; there is a reason they all look alike, it's called parallel evolution. TopAce's dystopian future military could never manage to fight a war. It would only barely manage day-to-day operations. This is not negotiable. Such behavior would not fly under Genghis Khan, it would not in medieval Europe, it would not under Robert E. Lee, it would not in the Waffen SS, it will not today in modern China (or anywhere else for that matter).

Actual conversation does not adhere perfectly to the rules of grammar. Go watch a television show.

You cannot tell the player how to feel. It doesn't work, it typically just upsets them and breaks suspension of disbelief.

There are actual stage directions. "Use Time Compression". "Don't use Time Compression". Do you want me to totally cease my suspension of disbelief? That's a dealbreaker in the rawest form, letting the audience see the stage directions. You can't do that, not in a serious work. Maybe William Shakespeare could get away with that kind of thing, but neither you nor I are William Shakespeare.

Dealing In Extremes is so heavyhanded it makes Warhammer 40,000 fiction look like Hello Kitty. I'm not joking, for the record, I have a complete set of the Gaunt's Ghosts and Ultramarines books. This is so utterly contrary to human nature, and so incredibly stupid to reward someone for. You don't want pyschopaths with guns for your soldiers, because then they're totally uncontrollable.

The Third Race plot pops up again. That's not new, sorry TopAce, but I have to admit the way you handled it was different.

Both times, the campaign doesn't really end. It just stops.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Klaustrophobia on September 22, 2010, 01:52:51 am
Okay, I've tried to remain reasonably civil, but with the grammar checkers and others apparently not able to read the original criticisms it's time to give 'em both barrels because nothing else is getting through. Yes, the grammar is awful and too perfect at the same time, but Axem, myself, and Woolie also presented QUITE A FEW OTHER CONCERNS BESIDES GRAMMAR. Bigchunk, you don't get it. Klaustrophobia, you don't get it either. Go back and read the original postings again.

then i wasn't talking to you.  i'm sorry that i didn't realize i needed to preface my comments with THIS IS DIRECTED AT THE GRIPES ABOUT GRAMMAR.


bats, i know what you mean.  for sure there is work that can be done on DOS in this reguard, and the other mod you mention executes better.  but in my personal opinion, it still comes up slightly short.  the player is never directly addressed by something like "YOU FEEL BLAHBLAH WHATEVER," but the PC dialogue is essentially the same thing when it comes down to it.  the PC actions, emotions, and responses are still dictated by the narrative, not originated in the player.  there was more than one instance in said mod where i disagreed with how i was being "led" to feel.  now don't get me wrong, i don't fault the mod one bit for this, nor any other that ever suffers the same effect.  it simply comes with the territory of having a characterized PC. 
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: TopAce on September 22, 2010, 09:17:39 am
Quote
TopAce, if you have plans to work toward a re-release and change up the writing, let me know.  if i have any time (and that's a pretty big if) i'd love to help.

I wouldn't like to touch this in the near future. For now, I'm doing something less ambitious and more absorbable at the moment. If I mess up on that too, I'll simply put up with the fact that my inability to write credibly prevents me from making good mods.

Quote
There are actual stage directions. "Use Time Compression". "Don't use Time Compression".

And that's about the only two instances where you receive some in-flight gameplay recommendations.

Quote
The Third Race plot pops up again. That's not new, sorry TopAce, but I have to admit the way you handled it was different.

I've never said it was new. Of course it wasn't.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: ktistai228 on September 22, 2010, 10:21:39 am
TopAce don't give up. Think of what you have now as a skeleton, and work on that. It could go. A few corrections here and there and it could be great. You really don't know. And you wouldn't be the only one screwing up the first time and trying again. Look at the other DoS(Dawn of Sol, damn these initials are cursed). It was released, it went bad, it went down. We are remaking it. Give it a try! And don't give up!
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 22, 2010, 10:37:59 am
Quote
TopAce, if you have plans to work toward a re-release and change up the writing, let me know.  if i have any time (and that's a pretty big if) i'd love to help.

I wouldn't like to touch this in the near future. For now, I'm doing something less ambitious and more absorbable at the moment. If I mess up on that too, I'll simply put up with the fact that my inability to write credibly prevents me from making good mods.

But if that's the only thing you feel you can't do well, why not team up with someone else? There are people here (Scotty?) who are relatively new to FRED but would be happy to write.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Shivan Hunter on September 22, 2010, 11:03:30 am
Quote
There are actual stage directions. "Use Time Compression". "Don't use Time Compression".
And that's about the only two instances where you receive some in-flight gameplay recommendations.

Sorry to pick on this one point but in no way can that be used as an excuse. "But there are only a few times I completely broke suspension of disbelief"! If you want to force time compression, do it in the mission itself. The SEXPs are available.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: TopAce on September 22, 2010, 11:05:04 am
I tried that SEXP and it didn't work.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Admiral MS on September 22, 2010, 01:48:35 pm
I tried that SEXP and it didn't work.

I just took a look at one of the missions: m04_ss = Shock. There is already an event with a set-time-compression after the talking is done (but set false) and a reset-time-compression some time later. Changing it to true and correcting the ending time worked perfectly fine in the mission. Although there seems to be something preventing me from using time compression before this event unless I put in another reset-time-compression at mission start.

Anyway, I just finished the campaign with the military branch and I don't think everything is as bad as everyone says. There are at least some innovations and gameplay changes to normal FS2/FS1 I really liked. Maybe I'll write some small review.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Lukeskywalkie on September 22, 2010, 03:41:18 pm
Links are down... Did TopAce pull the files? 
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Shivan Hunter on September 22, 2010, 03:44:02 pm
Yes.

I'm sure some people who still have the files can send it to you though.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: NJSP 3002 on September 22, 2010, 04:48:27 pm
Darn hope he puts them back up really wanted to try it out.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Marcov on September 22, 2010, 08:48:27 pm
Are there destroyers in there? Isn't an Orion/Hecate a bit too advanced for the early 2100's??  :lol:
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: Mongoose on September 22, 2010, 09:23:15 pm
...this isn't set in the FreeSpace universe.  lrn2rd.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: General Battuta on September 22, 2010, 09:30:20 pm
Are there destroyers in there? Isn't an Orion/Hecate a bit too advanced for the early 2100's??  :lol:

God you're thick.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: TopAce on September 23, 2010, 11:49:07 am
I added an official statement to the first post.

Please lock this thread, permanently this time.
Title: Re: RELEASE: Descendants of Sol
Post by: achtung on September 23, 2010, 12:55:30 pm
Locked. There's not really anything new to discuss.