Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Marcov on September 30, 2010, 09:15:11 am
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Since I simply don't have that much time to sit and type for hours a theory as long as the Shivan Manifesto, here's an analogy of the Shivan agenda.
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The Shivans are the guardians of the universe. Whenever there's some sort of violent trouble in some system in the vast expansion of space, they come and start screwing things up for the better. For example, when the Ancients grew a literally MASSIVE empire (possibly thousands, or even million of systems but we don't have proof of that), other species gradually phased out and were crushed by the Ancients. So the Shivans organize a huge assault on the Ancients until they are wiped out. After all, the Terrans wouldn't be making sh** like Orions in the 24th century if the Ancients hadn't been wiped out earlier.
As noted in the wiki, it's possible that Volition wanted the supernova of the Crab nebula to have a part in the destruction of the Ancients. At some point, the Ancients were pushed back to this nebula and the Shivans blew it up, causing a subspace ripple (as stated in the cutscene) and dispersing the Shivan fleet (the Shivans dispersed intentionally).
I'll also note the Knossos here. The Knossos, as carefully analyzed by Terrans, was a tool utilized by the Ancients to stabilize a node on the verge of collapse. It's possible that, while the Shivans were pushing toward the center of the Ancients' empire (stated as somewher near Vasuda) the Ancients had undergone some fighting in subspace portals against warships that were probably similar to the Lucifer (only ships around the size of the Lucifer would produce explosions enough to severely damage subspace portals) and, while another Shivan fleet was nearing the node, the Ancients took some time to construct these gates, probably to send a fleet in to counter the Shivan shielded destroyers while in subspace.
Back to the major section. As the Shivans disperse their fleets, they tend to some business far, far from Terran space. And then, the Shivans intentionally SCARE the Terrans and Vasudans - by use of the Lucifer.
The Lucifer created a whole mess that soon united both Terrans and Vasudans. This was, actually, all part of the plan; the plan to trick Admiral Aken Bosch into telling him that "hey, it's all right. No need to start some messy rebellion when there's really no use in talking to us." Since then, the Shivans took hold of Bosch for perhaps the rest of his life - so as he won't reveal what information the Shivvies had inserted to him.
Now, why did the Shivans waste so much on the GTVA fleet? To tell them that there really was no use in creating a self-defence method against them - the Shivans weren't up to wiping out the Terrans and Vasudans (yet). They just wanted to slap the face of the GTVA in order to bring them back to sanity and maturity (since there was no use at all in fighting off the far more powerful Shivans).
Then the Shivans build some comm nodes to guide a large fleet they prepared to disperse AGAIN. The large fleet - well, you already probably guessed - the Sathanas fleet - had the capability to cause another star to go supernova, and cause a subspace ripple in which they could disperse in other parts of the universe as part of their purpose to restore order throughout the universe.
Also, we're not exactly sure of the identity of their masterinds (of if they had any at all). What I'm simply trying to imply here is that Shivans are God's rod which whips the careless, immature civilizations that quarrel among each other and discipline them.
Sounds like Shivans aren't bad guys here, eh??
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Yep, that's what the FreeSpace 1 end cutscene implies, and a few user-made campaigns like Blue Planet have made suggestions in that direction as well.
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Order restored. :yes:
But I think wiping out Vasuda Prime (and probably Earth) would've been a bit harsh to scare terran and vasudan people... or maybe not? Hwoh... all these theories make me dizzy :confused:
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Sounds a bit crazy, but realistic. And I was really confused why the Shivans stopped after the Destruction of Capella's sun.
Yeah, in Blue Planet you face the Shivans as the Great Destroyers (that they are :))and then *whoosh* the Vishnans arrive and state that they are the Preservers.
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I detected one flaw, not so much in the theory, but the pretext.
I'll also note the Knossos here. The Knossos, as carefully analyzed by Terrans, was a tool utilized by the Ancients to stabilize a node on the verge of collapse. It's possible that, while the Shivans were pushing toward the center of the Ancients' empire (stated as somewher near Vasuda) the Ancients had undergone some fighting in subspace portals against warships that were probably similar to the Lucifer (only ships around the size of the Lucifer would produce explosions enough to severely damage subspace portals) and, while another Shivan fleet was nearing the node, the Ancients took some time to construct these gates, probably to send a fleet in to counter the Shivan shielded destroyers while in subspace.
One of the ancient cutscenes has this to say:
"The destroyers that darkened our sky like a plague can be harmed. But we have no way to deliver the hurt. We have the knowledge, but not the means."
They only discovered the Lucifers weakness when they were no longer able to exploit it, so they couldn't have build several Knossos portals specifically for comabating Lucifers.
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I knew I forgot something to reply to :ick:
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Marcov, we need to talk...
(he comes close (but he's still some miles away) to my shivan theory - but to hear that one you've to wait until I'm done FREDing a) "Words Of The Prophet" and b) "Workings Of The Warp" and/or c) "The Shard Of Infinity")
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And I was really confused why the Shivans stopped after the Destruction of Capella's sun.
The Shivans used the supernova to create a subspace ripple to scatter their Sath fleet around the universe since they had important business elsewhere (this is aleady implied by my theory). Although it may be possible that the Shivans will return after thousands of years to restore some order in Terran Vasudan space once again.
They only discovered the Lucifers weakness when they were no longer able to exploit it, so they couldn't have build several Knossos portals specifically for comabating Lucifers.
There are two possibilities for this condition: 1. Yes, the Ancients were able to crush some Lucifers (but still delivered a good-for-nothing blow to the Shivan fleet) or 2. Perhaps the nodes that the Knossi were supposed to re-stabilize were simply on the verge of collapse even before the Shivans had invaded Ancient space (but I believe more in the former),
Thanks, however for making comments on the theory. :yes:
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What bugs me in canon information is:
Ancient's empire was lasting for thousands of years, and they had like thousands of systems in it, and only then the Shivans came for them.
As for the Humans and Vasudans - they were making first steps into the galaxy, and Shivans quickly come and try to scare/crush/stop them.
This seems not logical, so there must be some connection between Ancients, Terrans and Vasudans.
AFAIR there is some things about it in Procyon Insurgency, though it seems PI is an overkill all in all.
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Ancient's empire was lasting for thousands of years, and they had like thousands of systems in it, and only then the Shivans came for them.
As for the Humans and Vasudans - they were making first steps into the galaxy, and Shivans quickly come and try to scare/crush/stop them.
It was noted in the Ancients narrative that they had an empire that lasted thousands of years, but we are NOT sure if they were expanding thousands of years VIA SUBSPACE.
Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long, we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long, never did we encounter advanced life. And we traveled faster and farther, spreading in our galaxy. And before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited, and then there would be nowhere else to go
So it is stated that they expanded for thousands of years WITHIN THEIR REACHABLE SYSTEMS. Then they discovered subspace.
However, if the Ancients DID expand for so long with subspace, then they had a massive galatcic empire then, is another story.
Either the Shivans were LATE, or the Shivans probably attacked the T-V's earlier because of the war they've been fighting on - if the Shivans hadn't interferred, the Terrans and Vasudans might wipe each other out!
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Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long, we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long, never did we encounter advanced life. And we traveled faster and farther, spreading in our galaxy. And before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited, and then there would be nowhere else to go
I think if the Ancients were spreading through the galaxy they would have to be using subspace. I personally don't like the whole cosmic protector explanation for the Shivans. It's a skyhook. My theory is that there was a race being destroyed by the Ancients who figured out subspace only too late to build ships to combat the Ancients. They knew they weren't going to survive so they created a dooms day weapon, an adaptive cybernetic organism that could utilize subspace and destroy the Ancients. How long it took this organism to grow and adapt to the task of destroying the Ancients we don't know. When all the Ancients were gone the Shivans lay dormant until subspace becomes active again and they spring into their mandate " Destroy the subspace travelers". This is probably an unexpected consequence and not intended by the creators of the Shivans.
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Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long, we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long, never did we encounter advanced life. And we traveled faster and farther, spreading in our galaxy. And before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited, and then there would be nowhere else to go
I think if the Ancients were spreading through the galaxy they would have to be using subspace. I personally don't like the whole cosmic protector explanation for the Shivans. It's a skyhook. My theory is that there was a race being destroyed by the Ancients who figured out subspace only too late to build ships to combat the Ancients. They knew they weren't going to survive so they created a dooms day weapon, an adaptive cybernetic organism that could utilize subspace and destroy the Ancients. How long it took this organism to grow and adapt to the task of destroying the Ancients we don't know. When all the Ancients were gone the Shivans lay dormant until subspace becomes active again and they spring into their mandate " Destroy the subspace travelers". This is probably an unexpected consequence and not intended by the creators of the Shivans.
Personally, i like this explanation much-much more.
Less mysticism never hurts :)
This, also, explains, why after killing ancient's empire thousands of years ago, Shivans managed to fail to kill all humans in Freespace.
Also, this cybernetic organism thing remind me of Cylons from Battlestar Galactia, so those Shivans might be one of the branches of 50k years of mechanical evolution :D
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I don't like the idea of the Shivans being created circa the time of the ancients; it seems to cheapen a lot of Bosch's monologues.
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I don't like the idea of the Shivans being created circa the time of the ancients; it seems to cheapen a lot of Bosch's monologues.
We might, as well, place it decades earlier, in the same fashion.
20k (or 200k) years before the ancients there was another galaxy empire, which was spreading very fast, and then, one of other species developed a cybernetic organism, just before getting 'nuked', after some time this organism nukes this pre-ancients empire and fall dormnant in the space/subspace, as there's nothing they can do.
20k years later Ancients discover subspace, and rising subspace activity wakes up those cybernetic organism once again. They nuke ancients, and once again fall asleep. Everything repeats itself 2k years later. Ancients, in this theory, might be not 2nd race, which was killed by Shivans, but more like hundredth, or may be more.
As for, where do Shivans "sleep" in the periods of inactivity, i'd guess they will prefer subspace, which is partially agreed on by Derelict.
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Derelict is non-canon and therefore meaningless.
What if there had been countless races, stretching back into infinity and like the nine cities of Troy, each civilization had been built on the rubble of the one that came before, each annihilated by the Shivans.
The Bosch monologues are so good that I like to think there's some truth in the poetry.
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Derelict is non-canon and therefore meaningless.
What if there had been countless races, stretching back into infinity and like the nine cities of Troy, each civilization had been built on the rubble of the one that came before, each annihilated by the Shivans.
The Bosch monologues are so good that I like to think there's some truth in the poetry.
As for derelict - yeah, but pretty much every theory, based on canon, but adding something to it is non-canon :)
Bosch's monologues are indeed good.
However there stand 2 questions, for me:
1. Who and when created Shivans? (Answer is couple of posts earlier)
2. How comes, after thousands of years of cybernetic evolution, Shivans still have some new technologies developed for them, and have limited fleet? (Answer is - for the most part of those thousands of years they are in "sleep mode", until someone triggers them by disturbing subspace too much.
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The biggest problem I see with the "Shivans were created a long time ago as destroyers and have been blasting civilizations ever since" is that it doesn't explain why the Ancients were able to form a vast empire and conquer other races (which must have been the work of centuries if not millennia), while the Terrans and Vasudans got noticed by the Shivans much more quickly.
And yes, I'm aware that the Historian timeline has the same problem. :) The best I've got ATM basically boils down to "the ancients got lucky lol."
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I have responses to these that I don't want to share right now. I think most thinking on the Shivans is too anthropocentric, though.
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Mass Effect (that is a great game but obviously stole the frame story from Freespace :drevil: ) explains the motivations of the Shivans well:
"We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."
"My kind transcends your very understanding."
"You cannot even grasp the nature of our existence."
She Shivans motivation is beyound our understanding - and I like it :nod:
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Mass Effect (that is a great game but obviously stole the frame story from Freespace :drevil: )
I think it was more of a Berserkers/Reynolds inhibitors crosspollination.
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T-LoW, if you've played ME2, do you remember Admiral vas Qwib-Qwib? Qwib-qwib are anti-Berserker Berserkers from the Saberhagen novels.
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I remember that guy but... what the heck are you two talking about? :wtf:
Never read a Berserker-Novel nor do I know Reynolds :nervous:
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Well, then go read a Saberhagen Berserker novel or Alastair Reynolds.
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Tell that to the Marines :hopping:
So the point is that ME availed itself of those books?
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Tell that to the Marines :hopping:
So the point is that ME availed itself of those books?
Oh, in nothing but the most respectable way, though. ME is a great story with a great setting.
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Don't read Berserker Fury. Just don't.
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The biggest problem I see with the "Shivans were created a long time ago as destroyers and have been blasting civilizations ever since" is that it doesn't explain why the Ancients were able to form a vast empire and conquer other races (which must have been the work of centuries if not millennia), while the Terrans and Vasudans got noticed by the Shivans much more quickly.
And yes, I'm aware that the Historian timeline has the same problem. :) The best I've got ATM basically boils down to "the ancients got lucky lol."
This puzzles me too.
Though it can be explained, 1st by Ancients first having an empire, and only then discovering subspace, as we see in Great War campaign. So by the time they start subspace travel - they already have an empire. Also, amount of traffic, which goes through subspace is not that huge in the beginning, and then, when it comes to larger amounts, Ancients are detected by Shivans and annihilated.
As for Humans - after finishing Ancients empire, and seeing that they failed to detect it while it was relatively small, shivans made some improvements to their sensors - and so they response time to increasing subspace travel usage got smaller.
But still, having Shivans beaten by GTVA doesn't make sense at all, from this specific point of view. BluePlanet's idea of great destroyers and great preservers is way too mythical and mystical. So there must be some other way.
One of the ways is - shivans are currently occupied by annihilating another Ancients-size empire, so it was only a small "border guard" with one Lucifer which was spared to destroy Terrans and Vasudans.
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Any effort to answer the Shivan question ruins them. We should stop. :P
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Any effort to answer the Shivan question ruins them. We should stop. :P
It depends on if you want to finally destroy them and live in peace, or be constantly threaten by them.
To destroy Shivans you need to fully understand them, where they come from, why they do what they do, and so on.
It will effectively ruin all this mystical way of things about Shivans, but provide unlimited possibilities to develop chapters of Shivan history in the past :)
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To destroy Shivans you need to fully understand them, where they come from, why they do what they do, and so on.
You don't have to know a man to kill them. You don't need to know why his routine exists to construct an ambush, you just need to know the routine. You don't even have to be able to see them, really. It just helps.
The Shivans as mystery offers far more opportunity for telling stories, far more flexibility, than an answer.
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BluePlanet's idea of great destroyers and great preservers is way too mythical and mystical. So there must be some other way.
You don't know ****. Don't make judgments like that until you've seen the entire story.
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BluePlanet's idea of great destroyers and great preservers is way too mythical and mystical. So there must be some other way.
You don't know ****. Don't make judgments like that until you've seen the entire story.
Yeah, sorry.
ATM, from what was shown in the AoA it looks like this.
I hope it will be shown in some other way, and will be glad to see it different.
Sorry if what i said offended you:)
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BluePlanet's idea of great destroyers and great preservers is way too mythical and mystical. So there must be some other way.
You don't know ****. Don't make judgments like that until you've seen the entire story.
Yeah, sorry.
ATM, from what was shown in the AoA it looks like this.
I hope it will be shown in some other way, and will be glad to see it different.
Sorry if what i said offended you:)
Didn't mean to lash out at you, but man, there's oodles of stuff in the techroom to make it clear it's a bit more complicated than that. (Which, granted, is not the same as presenting it in the narrative proper.)
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To destroy Shivans you need to fully understand them, where they come from, why they do what they do, and so on.
You don't have to know a man to kill them. You don't need to know why his routine exists to construct an ambush, you just need to know the routine. You don't even have to be able to see them, really. It just helps.
The Shivans as mystery offers far more opportunity for telling stories, far more flexibility, than an answer.
True, but if you want to make a compelling history out of it, you can't just have the Shivans be a mysterious nearly-all-powerful force forever. Sooner or later, you'll have to explain them and somehow resolve the conflict.
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Why? I mean I've got a grand overarching campaign story sitting in my head that doesn't require that at all. :P
Even in death they remain mysterious.
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Why? I mean I've got a grand overarching campaign story sitting in my head that doesn't require that at all. :P
Even in death they remain mysterious.
I'm pretty sure killing them is going to make them seem a lot lamer than explaining them. It's just the usual human triumphalism, rah rah we're so special even though we're just another modestly eusocial cognitive niche low-tier ingroup-centric predator species.
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I'm pretty sure killing them is going to make them seem a lot lamer than explaining them. It's just the usual human triumphalism, rah rah we're so special even though we're just another modestly eusocial cognitive niche low-tier ingroup-centric predator species.
Considering it would have been at least a tri-species effort, not really.