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Hosted Projects - Standalone => Wings of Dawn => WoD Archive => Topic started by: noodle on October 01, 2010, 09:37:58 pm

Title: So uh...
Post by: noodle on October 01, 2010, 09:37:58 pm
Am I the only one who didn't like WoD?

Because I really didn't. At all.

You set it up as something of an anime homage, but all I see is a giant grab-bag of the worst cliches, some exclusive to anime, some just general cliches. I nearly threw up at the 'space elves who view humans as a brash young race in need of guidance' part. Talk about one of the most irritating and insufferable tropes out there. Not to mention that like 70% of the cast is female, all of whom are one fanservicy archetype or other.  And all drawn in that particular misguided weeaboo style that thinks that just throwing in big eyes and brightly colored hair makes it look authentically Japanese. It doesn't, and it looks terrible.

Some nice mission design in there, I appreciate all the new ships and weapons, but it's all covered in a layer of the worst kind of anime fandom that I just couldn't get past.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: General Battuta on October 01, 2010, 10:02:27 pm
Quote
but it's all covered in a layer of the worst kind of anime fandom that I just couldn't get past

i think this is the point

It's like reviewing War in Heaven from the perspective of a military vet with PTSD, man. It's never going to live up to your standards if you're actually an auteur in the field.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Nuclear1 on October 01, 2010, 10:07:45 pm
But...but...Misuzu...:(
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Rodo on October 01, 2010, 10:18:57 pm
Well.. there's you, maybe there are some more out there that didn't like the campaign.
With luck they'll show up and then you can start your own club, yay!
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Ypoknons on October 01, 2010, 11:24:32 pm
yea, there were a few 'animefan' elements, maybe it got overbearing for some people, but so what? Some of the new races were really interesting to fight, stuff that no one has done in the FS world before, some of the missions (especially the last few, the asteroid mission, etc...) were anything but cliched in mission design.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Rodo on October 01, 2010, 11:43:50 pm
Yeah!! the asteroid one was a kicking ass mission, I really loved that one.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Quanto on October 02, 2010, 12:31:41 am
butthurt commentary
(http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/2742/no****.jpg)
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Herra Tohtori on October 02, 2010, 12:39:52 am
I chose to interpret is as this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_%28style%29) instead of srs bsns... :p

Quote
Camp is a critical analysis and at the same time a big joke. Camp takes “something” (normally a social norm, object, phrase, or style), does a very acute analysis of what the “something” is, then takes the “something” and presents it humorously. As a performance, camp is meant to be an allusion. A person being campy has a generalization they are intentionally making fun of or manipulating. Though camp is a joke it is also a very serious analysis done by people who are willing to make a joke out of themselves to prove a point.

Case in point: "A palette switch? How cheap." and: "Despite being red, they didn't even go three times faster."
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Shivan Hunter on October 02, 2010, 12:52:30 am
Some nice mission design in there, I appreciate all the new ships and weapons, but it's all covered in a layer of the worst kind of anime fandom that I just couldn't get past.

I couldn't get past that at first either. And honestly, the fact that you personally didn't like the lighthearted, pseudo-tongue-in-cheek anime style doesn't mean it's bad. Spoon made a campaign that appeals greatly to several people here, and that includes most of the anime fans. I've never been much for anime but it was a good campaign in its own right.

What this all comes down to is if you don't like the campaign, you didn't have to play it. That may sound rude, but it's a fact; no campaign will please everyone. Difficult as it is to imagine, I'm sure there are some people who actually didn't like the grim, depressing tone of BP:WiH. The fact is that WoD and WiH were designed with their particular styles in mind- and whether you personally like or dislike the style, the campaigns are great examples of them nonetheless.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Ypoknons on October 02, 2010, 01:51:56 am
With WoD I think you can never really tell when it's making an allusion or taking an idea and running with it.

Makes me wonder. Ancient, super-powerful fighter? Not exactly a new idea, and 'serious professional military personnel wanting to fly realistic normal military vehicles in space' types probably don't like the association with arcade shooters and super-robot anime. But was the Frame fun to fly? And did Spoon implement it successfully? Did it provide something other campaigns don't? Did it have awesome fighter beams? I think yes, and Spoon has succeeded here.

Another example of WoD's subtle charm are the Cordi fighters. Again, mini-fighters aren't anything new in Sci-Fi, but the Cordi fighters were awesome. They're bite-sized, they skid around, changing direction just when you've got your gun tracing right, and generally behave differently from FS2 swarming fighters.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Spoon on October 02, 2010, 04:16:24 am
Well noodle, I'm like, super glad you took the time to make a new topic to tell me this super constructive feedback  :p
And I'll look forward at your attempt at making a campaign for Freespace that is far better, with better art, less clichés and not covered in this 'layer of the worst kind of anime fandom'.

I know there is little I can do to make it up to you. And I apologize deeply for hurting the feelings of a superior anime fan like you with my garbage. 


I shall now proceed to commit Seppuku ^_^
Sayonara cruel kowaii T_T world desu!
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: T-LoW on October 02, 2010, 04:34:40 am
I liked it :nod:

And the best thing: It's for free! :)
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: ssmit132 on October 02, 2010, 08:21:44 am
Even though I'm not an Anime expert (e.g. I have no idea who this Rance guy is), I still enjoyed the campaign.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: General Battuta on October 02, 2010, 08:39:53 am
See, I think part of the reason Wings of Dawn is almost indisputably good is that if you removed every character name, reduced all the dialogue to simple instructions, and changed all the ships into variously sized boxes, it'd STILL be fun. Because the mission design was fresh, the tasks you're asked to perform are entertaining, and the music is groovin'.

I can't even usually take anime seriously because I'm spoiled by stuff like Iain Banks which tends to tackle a lot of the same themes with more maturity, but I liked WoD.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on October 02, 2010, 08:55:18 am

I like this style, all these swarmin´ rockets, uber-fast ships, not to big ships and nice weapons and especially all this animesque design AND the mission design AND the music blablabla.

By the way, Sci-Fi Animes weren't my fav animes but now heheh....
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: SpardaSon21 on October 02, 2010, 09:35:54 am
I like what Spoon did with WoD.  It is like he took most sci-fi anime tropes, and put them together in a single package, complete with plenty of Lampshades and Shout Outs.  WoD isn't exactly JAD, but it isn't serious business either.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Dilmah G on October 02, 2010, 10:49:25 am
Well guys, noodle is allowed to not like WoD for whatever reason. And he's already told us why, even if it wasn't put in the nicest way possible.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Snail on October 02, 2010, 11:05:41 am
I think noodle's got a point. I liked WoD as a sort of acid trip experience, but for the reasons outlined in the first post, I didn't really like the universe/backstory/fiction/mythology/setting. I didn't read any of the fiction in the tech room (except the species descriptions).

But really, being hilariously over the top and filled with anime and community references doesn't stop it from being one of the best campaigns ever made (IMO).
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: General Battuta on October 02, 2010, 11:08:11 am
Well guys, noodle is allowed to not like WoD for whatever reason. And he's already told us why, even if it wasn't put in the nicest way possible.

Thank you, those are all facts. Is there a point?
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Dilmah G on October 02, 2010, 11:15:30 am
Yes there is.

It was more directed at things like the 'butthurt commentary' post, and to a lesser extent, Spoon's response.

Anyway, I haven't played WoD, let alone Freespace in a long time now, so I don't really have an opinion to put forward on the campaign.

EDIT: Spoon's response is perfectly justified, I just felt like sticking up for noodle, since I don't know if his criticism is valid or not and subsequently gave him the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Spoon on October 02, 2010, 11:28:52 am
Of course people are allowed to say they didn't liked it. But really now, if you start a new topic just for the sake of saying "I didn't liked it" then I start to wonder what exactly you are trying to achieve. Do you want to hear other people agreeing with you? Do you want to start a "People who dislike WoD club"?
Now if there was constructive critism in there of any kind, then there would be something for me to reply to.

Well in any case, I'm happy there are plenty of people that Do like it  :)
Thanks guys for the support
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Dilmah G on October 02, 2010, 11:35:52 am
Quote
Of course people are allowed to say they didn't liked it. But really now, if you start a new topic just for the sake of saying "I didn't liked it" then I start to wonder what exactly you are trying to achieve. Do you want to hear other people agreeing with you? Do you want to start a "People who dislike WoD club"?
Now if there was constructive critism in there of any kind, then there would be something for me to reply to.
Yeah, that's true.

Sorry mate, I didn't really think that one through.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Ravenholme on October 02, 2010, 12:43:08 pm
See, I think part of the reason Wings of Dawn is almost indisputably good is that if you removed every character name, reduced all the dialogue to simple instructions, and changed all the ships into variously sized boxes, it'd STILL be fun. Because the mission design was fresh, the tasks you're asked to perform are entertaining, and the music is groovin'.

I can't even usually take anime seriously because I'm spoiled by stuff like Iain Banks which tends to tackle a lot of the same themes with more maturity, but I liked WoD.

I'm supposed to take sci-fi anime seriously? Wooops.

(I love anime, especially sci-fi ones, but I don't think I've taken any but GitS seriously, since GitS is very mature. Again, like you, I'm spoiled by too many good sci-fi writers.)

Anyways, Noodle, I really enjoyed WoD - as you can see by the fact I got involved with the one-man team shortly after release.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 02, 2010, 06:00:21 pm
You set it up as something of an anime homage, but all I see is a giant grab-bag of the worst cliches, some exclusive to anime, some just general cliches. I nearly threw up at the 'space elves who view humans as a brash young race in need of guidance' part. Talk about one of the most irritating and insufferable tropes out there. Not to mention that like 70% of the cast is female, all of whom are one fanservicy archetype or other.  And all drawn in that particular misguided weeaboo style that thinks that just throwing in big eyes and brightly colored hair makes it look authentically Japanese. It doesn't, and it looks terrible.

Some nice mission design in there, I appreciate all the new ships and weapons, but it's all covered in a layer of the worst kind of anime fandom that I just couldn't get past.

So what exactly would you expect out of an anime-themed mod to make it enjoyable? I think that sort of information would be more beneficial to the WoD development team and for discussion in general.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Quanto on October 02, 2010, 06:17:36 pm
I don't think noodle even gave a **** about this thread that he started.
He just wanted to stir up the bee hive. Which he actually probably did.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 02, 2010, 07:18:05 pm
I don't think noodle even gave a **** about this thread that he started.
He just wanted to stir up the bee hive. Which he actually probably did.

He doesn't come across as trolling, he comes across as a guy who likes anime a little too much and probably hoped for a certain type of story but found a story in the end that did not appeal to his tastes. Which is why I asked him whether what sort of story and characters he would want to see out of an anime-inspired mod.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Qent on October 03, 2010, 12:32:50 am
I can't explain it, but I got a really positive vibe from noodle's post.

Even if it wasn't directly constructive, how can it not be helpful to know who didn't like it and why?

In fact, I don't believe that constructive criticism is even possible in this case, because I got the sense that noodle dislikes WoD's whole concept, not the execution.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Spoon on October 03, 2010, 02:24:00 am
I can't explain it, but I got a really positive vibe from noodle's post.
Care to point out where you are seeing anything positive then?

Even if it wasn't directly constructive, how can it not be helpful to know who didn't like it and why?
Because dear sir, it is not motivating to see someone to go through the effort to create a topic to just tell you:
Quote
You set it up as something of an anime homage, but all I see is a giant grab-bag of the worst cliches, some exclusive to anime, some just general cliches. I nearly threw up at the 'space elves who and so on and so on.

Zero. Positivity.

In fact, I don't believe that constructive criticism is even possible in this case, because I got the sense that noodle dislikes WoD's whole concept, not the execution
Again, I ask
Quote
if you start a new topic just for the sake of saying "I didn't liked it" then I start to wonder what exactly you are trying to achieve. Do you want to hear other people agreeing with you? Do you want to start a "People who dislike WoD club"?

In any case, noodle doesn't even bother replying any more, so in my book he's just attempted a failed troll, meaning I'm gonna lock this thread in a few hours from now.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: -Norbert- on October 03, 2010, 06:23:37 am
[...]
I can't even usually take anime seriously because I'm spoiled by stuff like Iain Banks which tends to tackle a lot of the same themes with more maturity, but I liked WoD.

First off, this isn't meant offensive or anything, just a little encouragement to go looking for all the good stuff you seem to have misses so far ;)

Unless that "usually" hides a lot, you don't seem to know much about Anime. There are of course happy-go-lucky anime, but there are also plenty of "grim-dark" anime made for mature audiance.
Just take one anime series that WoD has lots of ties with (for example the majority of music) Gundam 00.
Since these things only come out bit by bit throughout both seasons of Gundam 00 I decided to spoiler-tag it:
Spoiler:
In there one of the main characters once was brainwashed into being a child guerillia whos best friend commited a suicide bombing in Ireland and that character even shot his own parents in order to "become one of gods chosen warriors".
Another main character lost his parents and little sister to the aforementioned bombing.
Yet another main character was experimented on as a child to turn him into a "super soldier", which resulted, among other things, in him having a split personality with one of them being a remorseless killer who enjoys meting out death.
Then there would be Elfen Lied, which occasionally has a little bit of humor tossed in, but is a very sad and very brutal setting (but great stroy, the manga even more so than the anime).
I also heard lots of good about Jinro, but unfortunately havn't been able to get the DVD or even a download anywere.... but it's also supposed to be very dark and depressing atmosphere.
In short, every kind of atmosphere that was ever used in "real" films you'll also find in animes, but most of the more adult stuff (and I don't mean hentai aka anime porn) doesn't make it over to europe and america unfortunately.
Also I have yet to see any anime movies in a cinema around here that wasn't made for small children  :mad2: The chances for the Gundam 00 movie to be shown in Austria are exactly 0  :hopping:

Anyway back to topic: I can see why someone who likes certain anime series and films doesn't like the atmosphere of the start of WoD or the characters, but that he just gives such a comment shows that the didn't take the time to completely play it through. While the characters keep a very positive attitude, the atmosphere itself darkens quite a bit throughout the campaign.
But regardless of all that it isn't so much what he said, but how and were he said it that's offensive. Making a polite post in the release thread is one thing. Opening a new thread with a post like his is quite another....
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Qent on October 03, 2010, 07:53:52 am
I can't explain it, but I got a really positive vibe from noodle's post.
Care to point out where you are seeing anything positive then?
TBH it was more a feeling I got than something he said, but okay:
Am I the only one who didn't like WoD?

Because I really didn't. At all.
Wow, someone who dislikes WoD? That alone makes the mod seem more "real" somehow.

You set it up as something of an anime homage, but all I see is a giant grab-bag of the worst cliches, some exclusive to anime, some just general cliches. I nearly threw up at the 'space elves who view humans as a brash young race in need of guidance' part. Talk about one of the most irritating and insufferable tropes out there. Not to mention that like 70% of the cast is female, all of whom are one fanservicy archetype or other.  And all drawn in that particular misguided weeaboo style that thinks that just throwing in big eyes and brightly colored hair makes it look authentically Japanese. It doesn't, and it looks terrible.
Okay, so he dislikes it for the same reasons that everyone else likes it. So WoD isn't for everyone. Who said it should be? This fills out the critical response to WoD in a way that is both useful and grounded in reality.

Some nice mission design in there, I appreciate all the new ships and weapons, but it's all covered in a layer of the worst kind of anime fandom that I just couldn't get past.
Some explicit positivity! And finally a summary of noodle's dislike that makes me think that he also dislikes anime in general. EDIT: Probably false, judging from other posts.

I do not like anime in general, and I don't know enough about it to know whether "WoD isn't authentic anime" is insulting, since that's a plus in my book. But someone disliking WoD for what it is shouldn't be discouraging, since it's not as if you did it wrong or something.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Ypoknons on October 03, 2010, 07:59:08 am
I think it's been said that even without the anime allusions, WoD is a fun and innovative campaign. So even if you don't like anime, or don't like some stylistic elements, you're still missing out if you don't it a chance. The anime elements is not only thing that makes WoD fun. So my response to noodle is sure, maybe some elements get on your nerves, but chill out mate, and enjoy.

My personal feeling is that they're too much fixation on the 'anime' label. It's all entertainment, whatever format, wherever it's from, let works stand on their own merits.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Mobius on October 03, 2010, 09:28:27 am
There's no such thing as a perfect campaign: all great names in campaign design can attract a lot of criticism from various standpoints. As Qent indirectly said, things person X doesn't like in a campaign may be the reason why person Y loves that campaign.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: General Battuta on October 03, 2010, 10:26:06 am
I think it's been said that even without the anime allusions, WoD is a fun and innovative campaign. So even if you don't like anime, or don't like some stylistic elements, you're still missing out if you don't it a chance. The anime elements is not only thing that makes WoD fun.

qft'd
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Nuclear1 on October 03, 2010, 11:02:55 am
Ah, I see noodle now:

DANCE MY LITTLE PUPPETS, DANCEEEEEEEEE
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Ypoknons on October 03, 2010, 01:27:55 pm
Even if the op is a troll, which I don't believe, I think we are having an rational conversation here.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 03, 2010, 05:20:57 pm
You set it up as something of an anime homage, but all I see is a giant grab-bag of the worst cliches, some exclusive to anime, some just general cliches. I nearly threw up at the 'space elves who view humans as a brash young race in need of guidance' part. Talk about one of the most irritating and insufferable tropes out there. Not to mention that like 70% of the cast is female, all of whom are one fanservicy archetype or other.  And all drawn in that particular misguided weeaboo style that thinks that just throwing in big eyes and brightly colored hair makes it look authentically Japanese. It doesn't, and it looks terrible.

Some nice mission design in there, I appreciate all the new ships and weapons, but it's all covered in a layer of the worst kind of anime fandom that I just couldn't get past.

I doubt you really nearly threw up, and hyperbole in criticism is always really suspect. However I also question your objectivity, considering that's not really the major theme of the Cryvan experience. The major theme of Cryvan-Human relations has been more along the lines of "Screw You Elves" then "Our Elves Are Better", which remains fairly fresh and is the exact opposite of the trope you're complaining about. I can only conclude you didn't pay attention to the background, or the snappy rejoinder Miszuzu always gave to Crystal pontificating.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by fanservice archetypes (to my knowledge nobody's actually collected and set them out anywhere, and in any case I'm not seeing much of several of the old fanservice standbys; none of the girls are particularly moe if you catch my drift, nor do we have much in the way of thighhighs and short skirts, nor glasses.) The style you describe, furthermore, is a legitimate anime style, having been used for such shows as Digimon and Pokemon. I'm not terribly au fait with it myself, but it has been used for legit anime productions so call it "misguided weeaboo style" is at best deceptive. Spoon's artwork is actually much better than the shows I just cited from a number of technical standpoints no less. He's at least as good as a filler episode of Naruto. (Not much of a compliment considering they occasionally forget to add a character's head, I admit...)

Without more detail I can't judge whether or not you're really an elitest or simply playing at being one, but for the moment I have to assume you're playing at, since your knowledgebase and thoroughness appear to be rather shallow.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: DarthWang on May 26, 2011, 07:02:46 am
Well noodle, I'm like, super glad you took the time to make a new topic to tell me this super constructive feedback  :p
And I'll look forward at your attempt at making a campaign for Freespace that is far better, with better art, less clichés and not covered in this 'layer of the worst kind of anime fandom'.

You don't need to be a chef to know when someone serves you ****
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: The E on May 26, 2011, 07:11:02 am
Was it really worth it to bump an 8-month old topic?
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: DarthWang on May 26, 2011, 08:06:33 am
I just hate that argument.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: The E on May 26, 2011, 08:23:23 am
Which one? Noodle's trolling? Or Spoons' sarcastic answer? Because, in essence, what you are doing is nothing but some stupid kiddy-**** trolling. IF you had posted this back in OCTOBER, it may have been relevant, but posting it 8 MONTHS after the fact is just needless trolling.
Title: Re: So uh...
Post by: Spoon on May 26, 2011, 08:29:38 am
What The E said
Also topic locked and DarthWang reported for stupidity.