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Hosted Projects - Standalone => Diaspora => Topic started by: Colonol Dekker on October 09, 2010, 09:26:14 am

Title: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 09, 2010, 09:26:14 am
I'm slowly working my way through series 1 of this NuBsg thing. Overall it seems a bit emo heavy. But I'll give it a chance to grow on me.
 
The point of the topic though is, . . . . . . WHY the Smurf do Colonials call the female officership "Sir" as opposed to the more gender correct "Ma'am"? It's worse than calling a daddy mummy or vice versa.
 
 
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Thaeris on October 09, 2010, 09:34:21 am
Ma'am, that is a valid point.

:D
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Dilmah G on October 09, 2010, 09:34:55 am
Mm, I recall going through this stage and thinking Battuta and Darius were having some kind of in-joke when Laporte started being referred to as Sir in WiH.

I dunno, I think it's a convention of some other mil sci-fi authors/series to use Sir as if it were gender-neutral form of address. Even if it messes up the minds of those who've had to refer to female occifers as ma'am for quite some time. :P

I guess you could put it down to language evolving or something. Or modern navies being changed dramatically by some kind of lawsuit involving an offended male officer and a very frightened looking Petty Officer who got sir/ma'am mixed up over the radio. Who knows. :D
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 09, 2010, 09:47:45 am
It's just soooooo wrong. I thought the same about WIH using Sir to refer to laporte to be honest.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2010, 09:54:33 am
Because it's shorter and therefore better, and the distinction is otherwise meaningless.

Rather like the ms vs. mrs issue, it's an unnecessary flourish that'll fade.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2010, 09:57:43 am
Oh and it's canonical for FreeSpace.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 09, 2010, 10:03:43 am
Sir is Male, Ma'am is female. They're both one syllable.
 
This is BSG focused. Blue Planet has every right to use the wrong terminology if it chooses. I retain my right of  disapproval.
 
 
 
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Thaeris on October 09, 2010, 10:12:37 am
For the record, are there any actual military organizations which do this?

When I was a cadet, we used male/female specific verbiage. I never thought about this too much when watching BSG, but I do now wonder what the precise reasons are for making use of this naming system...

And, for the record, I'm going to say that it being "canon" in FS doesn't count. Volition assumably made the assumption that the user-base would primarily be male, and thus did not feel the need to make a gender-select system (apart from choosing your pilot image). Furthermore, doing so would require significantly more difficult VA work, which would cost more, use more disk space, etc. In short, it was conveniant do it the way they did it - it doesn't mean that that's the way it really is in the FS-verse.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Dilmah G on October 09, 2010, 10:33:28 am
I don't believe there are any functioning organisations which do this.

And some goes for when I was a cadet as well. And to be perfectly honest with you, calling male officers sir and female officers ma'am makes more sense and feels more natural to me, but sir for both sexes is what the BP team decided and as a team member, I'm obliged to support that decision (though I did challenge it on the dev channel at some stage).
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2010, 10:38:43 am
And, for the record, I'm going to say that it being "canon" in FS doesn't count. Volition assumably made the assumption that the user-base would primarily be male, and thus did not feel the need to make a gender-select system (apart from choosing your pilot image). Furthermore, doing so would require significantly more difficult VA work, which would cost more, use more disk space, etc. In short, it was conveniant do it the way they did it - it doesn't mean that that's the way it really is in the FS-verse.

Negative; :V: went to careful effort to ensure their campaign was totally gender-blind in FS2. You can see the marks in the writing. Given that you can pick male or female pilots that's as much as we got.

I'm not going to get into a debate on this so consider it a Battutedict! TRUTH HAS SPOKEN

In more general terms you increase the cognitive effort of any message by forcing a male/female choice, and splitting your rank delineator in half leads to all sorts of problematic consequences. The objective of military verbiage is to support unit cohesion and hierarchy and provide terse, informative communications. Fat like this will get cut over time, since the gender of the officer is functionally irrelevant. Wasting even a split-second on making a useless distinction is going to get people killed.

Functioning militaries today don't require you to greet high-ranking officers by a long-ass list of titles (the Viscount of Canter****, Smasher of Heathens, Whose Endowment is Akin to the Stallion); they're a relic of older social structures that eventually got discarded.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 09, 2010, 10:44:09 am
I heartily believe the opposite. Ma'am has been in place for centuries. It'll stick.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2010, 10:46:00 am
I heartily believe the opposite. Ma'am has been in place for centuries. It'll stick.

Could be. In BSG they've got a whole different history, though; group and homosexual marriages are normal and their whole society is a bit more relaxed.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 09, 2010, 10:52:57 am
I'm looking forward to seeing the more socially utopian aspects of the BSG universe. If they can attain a level of tolerance and acceptance above and beyond our own, it just confuses the heck out of me why they apply Male designations to Female crew.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2010, 10:57:07 am
I'm looking forward to seeing the more socially utopian aspects of the BSG universe. If they can attain a level of tolerance and acceptance above and beyond our own, it just confuses the heck out of me why they apply Male designations to Female crew.

Because the designation is not male. It's gender-blind. 'Ms.' is now, for many, a term that's agnostic to marital state; I don't think you'd argue it's somehow offensive that it's applied to married women because it's 'an unmarried term'.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Qent on October 09, 2010, 11:00:47 am
Why isn't "ma'am" the neutral one?
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Dilmah G on October 09, 2010, 11:11:20 am
The number of male officers in the Navy probably edges a little more than the number of female officers. Even in a gender-neutral society, fields like aircrew have physical restrictions that favour the average male rather than the average female. Even if you take something trivial like the minimum height for aircrew (163cm) and look at the average heights of males and females around the world you'll see some interesting things.

And then you have direct combat roles akin to Infantry, which, even if women were allowed to serve, would not do so in large numbers (I linked a pdf some time ago done by the British Army, I believe, which stated that out of the percentage of women already serving in the defence force, less than 1% were physically able to hack being in a direct combat section).

Unless of course you have some kind of uber bone strength serum, surgery, thing...
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2010, 11:12:38 am
Why isn't "ma'am" the neutral one?

Because 'sir', at least in our society, carries historical connotations of authority and presence, whereas 'maam' is tied to femininity, submission, and weakness.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: T-LoW on October 09, 2010, 11:15:41 am
HOORA!
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 09, 2010, 11:16:05 am
Because it's a contraction of Madam. Sir is most definitely a male term. Anyone who's recieved junk mail headed by
"Dear Sir or Madam" could work that out. Miss is for young girls, the female equivalent of Master. Mrs is obvious, Ms is widowers, divorcee's, spinsters and Teachers, and anything else.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: rscaper1070 on October 09, 2010, 11:16:34 am
Excuse the Star Trek reference but Saavik in the Wrath of Khan was addressed as Mr. Saavik.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Black Wolf on October 09, 2010, 11:26:56 am
They also establish this "Sir for everyone" rule in Ep. 1 of Voyager, so it's not just military sci fi.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2010, 11:30:27 am
They also establish this "Sir for everyone" rule in Ep. 1 of Voyager, so it's not just military sci fi.

Huh weird. Did all of Trek do it?
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Black Wolf on October 09, 2010, 12:30:31 pm
Apparently:

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Sir#Sir
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 09, 2010, 02:00:35 pm
Well Trek is equally flawed then. Sir is derived from Sire hence it's attachment as a title to Knights of the realm and by evolution of English society and military- it's officers. Sire by it's definition of action is "to father" is a male facet.
 
Sir, Ma'am. They both carry equal weight as titles when applied to respect towards a rank. I see no logical reason for trek or beeesgee to completely foul up such a simple use of language.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2010, 02:03:32 pm
Sir, Ma'am. They both carry equal weight as titles when applied to respect towards a rank. I see no logical reason for trek or beeesgee to completely foul up such a simple use of language.

Because Sir has a history as a term of military respect and female officers presumably should be granted the same respect. Ma'am carries connotations of femininity, which in turn connotes weakness and submission.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: MR_T3D on October 09, 2010, 02:55:44 pm
hey, we're talking about people whom don't believe in right angles, so i think its understandable their military verbatim is different.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Browncoat Mal on October 09, 2010, 03:12:20 pm
The sir-> sire -> male line of reasoning is flawed. 'Sir' isn't from 'sire' in the 'to-father' sense, it's the last in a long line of mutations of the Latin root, which is just an honorific adjective given to an elder/respected person.

Also, the equivalent of 'Sir' with respect to the knighted aspect is 'Dame', not 'ma'am'.

'Ma'am' and 'Madame' are strictly societal, coming from the origins for 'my lady'.

With that in mind, I can see how 'sir' would be used (for all genders) as a title of respect and rank in military, with 'sir' denoting seniority/higher rank.

'Ma'am' has no such connotations- and to suggest that it will 'stick' simply because it's been around for a while is lunacy. 'Thou' was around for hundreds of years and used in some of the English languages most stunning works, and yet who still uses it today?
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 09, 2010, 03:21:13 pm
Major, Captain, Corporal and Sergeant and others have been used for THOUSANDS of years. They're still in common use. Regardless of anyones opinion, my own included. Sir and Ma'am are integral to Military doctrine and everyday use. All serving, Ex serving, relatives, etc will appreciate this fact. It will not change. It will continue.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2010, 03:22:05 pm
Major, Captain, Corporal and Sergeant and others have been used for THOUSANDS of years. They're still in common use. Regardless of anyones opinion, my own included. Sir and Ma'am are integral to Military doctrine and everyday use. All serving, Ex serving, relatives, etc will appreciate this fact. It will not change. It will continue.


But uh BSG isn't necessarily in the future.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 09, 2010, 03:32:24 pm
No. They're in the 80's.
 
I don't really mind either way. I'm more at a disagreement with the production team for being spartan towards recognition of the appropriate salutation.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Browncoat Mal on October 09, 2010, 03:49:03 pm
All due respect, Dekker, but WHERE do you get these terms being used for THOUSANDS of years?!

Last I checked, the Romans had centurions, pilus priors,  primus pilus, tribunes, and the like.

These words trace their origins (disregarding Latin roots that had NO military usage) at most back a thousand years- and even then, they were NOT used in a military context. In that regard, they are at most hundreds of years old.

To say that NOTHING will change is to disregard the entirety of military history, which has shown nothing BUT the fact that the armed forces of the world will continue to evolve, adapt, and change and will come up with new terms, ranks, and forms of address to do so. To insist that just because a certain way particular to a particular time and region/language will last simply because it is what you identify with is ridiculous.

The dev team is, as far as I know, creating a work of fiction based off of a work of fiction- not a perfect replica of what you consider 'appropriate' military protocol.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: newman on October 09, 2010, 03:54:04 pm
If this is the sort of thing you're wondering about when watching this show then perhaps this show isn't for you.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 09, 2010, 04:46:41 pm
I'm a bit surprised that none of the other military heads on HLP aren't as addled by it as I am.
 
In any case I've expressed my point. There's nothing more to it. Aside from that issue i'm enjoying the show. Is there a name for the mini-series or is it just a pilot?
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: The E on October 09, 2010, 04:57:56 pm
It's just "The Miniseries".
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: newman on October 09, 2010, 05:21:08 pm
The mini-series is really the stuff you should have seen first - it remains as some of the best of bsg ever filmed to date, and is the start of the show. The first episode, season 1 episode 1 called "Water" comes right after that.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: The E on October 09, 2010, 05:24:20 pm
S01E01 was "33". You're still correct, though.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: newman on October 09, 2010, 05:56:06 pm
Right, I meant 33. My mistake.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 09, 2010, 06:42:26 pm
I'm on S1E11 at this very second.
 
I'm bored of the president now, it's all about Tighs wife. Lol.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Dilmah G on October 09, 2010, 10:22:15 pm
I'm a bit surprised that none of the other military heads on HLP aren't as addled by it as I am.
Well I was for some time with its use in WiH, but I never saw much of BSG and thus never had the chance to get up in arms over it.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2010, 10:29:03 pm
I'm a bit surprised that none of the other military heads on HLP aren't as addled by it as I am.
Well I was for some time with its use in WiH, but I never saw much of BSG and thus never had the chance to get up in arms over it.

Yeah for those of us who grew up on stuff like Trek it feels weirder the other way.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 10, 2010, 06:52:15 am
Raised on liez!
 
 
So far my favourite bit of BSG (from ep1 to ep10) is the Ace Combat homage tunnel run on the tylium asteroid.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: newman on October 10, 2010, 08:13:45 am
Yea, Hand of God is definitely one of the best episodes. Wait till you reach a little something called the "Adama maneuver" - won't say anything else to avoid spoiling it for you :)
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Sushi on October 10, 2010, 09:44:25 am
Yea, Hand of God is definitely one of the best episodes. Wait till you reach a little something called the "Adama maneuver" - won't say anything else to avoid spoiling it for you :)

If you make it that far... I didn't. :p
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on October 10, 2010, 09:45:56 am
Yea, Hand of God is definitely one of the best episodes. Wait till you reach a little something called the "Adama maneuver" - won't say anything else to avoid spoiling it for you :)

If you make it that far... I didn't. :p

i know it's hard to be so madly in lust with baltar and yet know you'll never have him, never feel the thrill of his self-serving lies in your ear, never hear him promise no more mr. nice gaius, never

i'll be in my bunk
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: newman on October 10, 2010, 09:46:15 am
You missed a lot just by missing that. It's one of the coolest moments in sci fi history. And seriously, up until then the show doesn't give you much to complain about. It mostly goes downhill after this, when the season 3 "self contained story per episode" kicks in.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Snagger on October 10, 2010, 12:05:24 pm
Well, as a former British Forces Officer, the whole issue is intensely irksome - it appeared in both Trek and BSG, and I suspect it is something that RDM carried over from the former to the latter.  It's just another awful politically correct sop, typical of the 80s and 90s styling of Trek TNG, which was one of that show's greatest weaknesses.  Everything in TNG was politically correct, even down to the bland sets and androgynous uniforms.  At least the much maligned Voyager managed to dispense with a lot of the PC clap-trap, and I seem to recall that the female officers were referred to as "maam" on Janeway's insistence (I still think she was weak for not airlocking that weak and insubordinate Chakotay, who was a PC sop in himself, then again, Adama should have airlocked Helo too after his sabotage).

Off topic, I agree that Season 3 was a bit weak, but its episode 4 was a big highlight of the entire show.  I also agree that the Miniseries was amongst the best scripting and acting of the run.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Browncoat Mal on October 10, 2010, 12:09:24 pm
Mid-point of Season 2 is also damn good....especially the nice two-parter. Just kept praying to hear 'Downfall' from Adama...not to mention pretty explosions in space and the whole 'look we're doing something in space like what happened at Midway!' deal.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: eldain on October 10, 2010, 03:18:49 pm
not to mention we get to see two awesomme battlestars in the offensive
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 10, 2010, 03:31:56 pm
How many series are there so far then? I'm about to watch Ep 13 of series 1. I've got series 2 and 3 left to watch.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on October 10, 2010, 03:40:45 pm
How many series are there so far then? I'm about to watch Ep 13 of series 1. I've got series 2 and 3 left to watch.

There are four series, and the miniseries, and that's it. Don't watch The Plan. Razor is okay though.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: newman on October 10, 2010, 04:16:57 pm
Razor should probably be watched between seasons 3 and 4. As for The Plan, your call.. it does offer some cool scenes of the attack on the colonies even despite it's obvious flaws.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: StarSlayer on October 10, 2010, 05:42:55 pm
Ragnar, HoG and Battle of the Rez curb stomp Exodus like it's got a skull made of eggshell and don't let anyone tell you different.  Sure it might have some flashy set pieces but the technical excellence of the previous three can not be denied nor matched by the post season two efforts.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 10, 2010, 10:06:29 pm
I don't believe there are any functioning organisations which do this.

There are a number of ones that make it the officer in question's choice. Current USN verbage defaults to gender-specific but there's discussion of defaulting to sir instead.

In the absence of a generalized non-gender term and in a military service that is determined to eliminate formalized gender differences, the oldest term winning is probably a reasonable answer.

(Also your research sucks Dekker, it's descended from the French sire, which is descended from sieur, which is a contraction of Seigneur; lord. )
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Dilmah G on October 10, 2010, 11:30:07 pm
Really? Hm, every day's a school day.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: SpardaSon21 on October 11, 2010, 11:21:58 am
At least on HLP.  I don't know about the rest of the Internet.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: ethaninja on October 12, 2010, 03:51:57 am
It's m'am in the Air Force, so I have no idea why they don't use that... Oh well, guess it's one of those things.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Snagger on October 12, 2010, 11:12:48 am
It's m'am in the Air Force, so I have no idea why they don't use that... Oh well, guess it's one of those things.
Because it's Hollywood, the most PC environment on Earth... :doubt:
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on October 12, 2010, 11:18:49 am
It's m'am in the Air Force, so I have no idea why they don't use that... Oh well, guess it's one of those things.
Because it's Hollywood, the most PC environment on Earth... :doubt:

Seems to be a contradiction here, seems like you're ignoring the fact that apparently some real militaries are shifting this way:

I don't believe there are any functioning organisations which do this.

There are a number of ones that make it the officer in question's choice. Current USN verbage defaults to gender-specific but there's discussion of defaulting to sir instead.

In the absence of a generalized non-gender term and in a military service that is determined to eliminate formalized gender differences, the oldest term winning is probably a reasonable answer.

(Also your research sucks Dekker, it's descended from the French sire, which is descended from sieur, which is a contraction of Seigneur; lord. )

Nobody's ever managed to define 'PC' for me as anything besides 'something I disagree with', anyway. I think it's ridiculously politically correct to use 'ma'am' and 'sir' separately, as clearly that represents an absurd level of concern with not offending women.  :nervous:
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Topgun on October 12, 2010, 11:55:55 am
I think its PC if you care whether or not you use sir or ma'am.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: redsniper on October 12, 2010, 05:45:01 pm
I think it's PC if we argue about whether we should use 'sir' and 'ma'am' or just 'sir'.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on October 12, 2010, 06:09:23 pm
I think it's PC if we argue about whether we should use 'sir' and 'ma'am' or just 'sir'.

I'm offended by your username. You might as well be called 'Indian killer'!
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: rscaper1070 on October 12, 2010, 06:37:40 pm
Maybe he's a Russian sniper.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: StarSlayer on October 12, 2010, 09:11:48 pm
You do realize you're arguing about a culture that developed on another planet?  There could be any number of reasons why all officers are Sir, last time i checked we aren't exactly privy to the entire history of the colonies and the etymology of their language.  Who's to say when they were going through their feudal period their knights weren't made up of both genders and thus both were referred to as Sir? 


Arguments based on earth honorifics are moot
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Dilmah G on October 13, 2010, 03:30:18 am
Seems to be a contradiction here, seems like you're ignoring the fact that apparently some real militaries are shifting this way:
Well like everything in the military we hear about, the pencil-pushers have to umm and ahh about it and then the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' argument comes up and I wouldn't be surprised if this comes up in conversation five years later and it's still 'there's discussion in the navy about it!' I highly doubt anything will change until the rest of society starts to call men and women sir.

By the way NGTM-1R, which organisations actually make it the Officer in question's choice? I'm genuinely curious. I've never heard of any female officers kicking up a stink over being called ma'am.
Quote
I think it's ridiculously politically correct to use 'ma'am' and 'sir' separately, as clearly that represents an absurd level of concern with not offending women.
I can see where you're coming from, but it's not a view that I hold. Sir/Ma'am was like Mr/Mrs to us. And let me tell you, Ma'am has no feminine or weak traits associated with it when the Squadron's OC is a female. :P

I think it's PC if we argue about whether we should use 'sir' and 'ma'am' or just 'sir'.
I tend to agree actually, until a female officer in the ADF walks in one day and says she thinks being called ma'am is a massive blow to women, I won't bat an eyelid. As far as I'm concerned, calling a female officer ma'am is tradition and should stay that way until one of them decides it isn't okay.

There are far more important things to worry about in the military than which word you'd like to use to address your officers. If they took submissions for the next title, I'm sure at least a 1/3 would submit 'Lazy C*nt', but that's an entirely different story.  :D
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: newman on October 13, 2010, 04:59:02 am
What Slayer said. Jeez, you guys are capable of producing pages and pages of debate on the most irrelevant subjects possible. This is page 4 of a discussion on whether women in a non existent, made up sci-fi military should be referred to as "sir". Don't you people have like, jobs/homework to do? :P
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Dilmah G on October 13, 2010, 05:40:37 am
I was moving on from that in a more 'why should we bother changing years of military tradition in our world?' direction. I couldn't care less about BSG (a series I haven't seen much of). :P
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: newman on October 13, 2010, 08:23:17 am
I couldn't care less about BSG (a series I haven't seen much of). :P

You're not helping your case with this blasphemy. Burn him!
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Dilmah G on October 13, 2010, 08:31:19 am
Uh oh.

 :eek2:

I think I missed a +'s use of sir/ma'am somewhere in that sentence.

/me runs before the Diaspora Team crucify him to Gaius Baltar's mystical deity.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 13, 2010, 09:57:02 am
I'm watching the episode where Pegasus turns up during some downtime from family strife, all I have to say is. . . . I WANT TO MARRY ADMIRAL CAIN. <3
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: tikey on October 14, 2010, 12:12:47 pm
What Slayer said. Jeez, you guys are capable of producing pages and pages of debate on the most irrelevant subjects possible. This is page 4 of a discussion on whether women in a non existent, made up sci-fi military should be referred to as "sir". Don't you people have like, jobs/homework to do? :P

I miss the physics debates :(

Or maybe not really.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: CooperHawkes on October 14, 2010, 03:13:39 pm
I'm watching the episode where Pegasus turns up during some downtime from family strife, all I have to say is. . . . I WANT TO MARRY ADMIRAL CAIN. <3

Wow. Be prepared for a marriage full of joy and fun. If you've got a glutton for punishment. No matter if she wants it or not, no matter if military manners dictate it or not: i would call her "SIR!" always. In caps. With exclamatian mark. Font size 32 (the average "spoken" font size is 12).

I miss the physics debates :(
Me, too. But as long as we don't have those, we have to go with debates about "gender blindness". Carry on, guys. I want to see this thread reach at least page 10. Without derailing into a degenerated pointless mess.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: newman on October 14, 2010, 03:42:11 pm
Wow. Be prepared for a marriage full of joy and fun. If you've got a glutton for punishment. No matter if she wants it or, no matter if military manners dictate it or not: i would call her "SIR!" always. In caps. With exclamatian mark. Font size 32 (the average "spoken" font size is 12).

I'm going to quote Jack here..

Quote
There is nothing on this earth sexier, believe me, gentlemen, than a woman you have to salute in the morning. Promote 'em all, I say, because this is true - if you haven't gotten a bj from a superior officer, well, you're just letting the best in life pass you by.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 15, 2010, 05:41:54 am
I'd still call her Ma'am, but i'd always be saluting:wakka:


Anyway, i've acquired Razor, and a working my way towards season 3. Razors after 3 right?
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: newman on October 15, 2010, 06:25:56 am
Yep, it came out as season 4 episode 0 - essentially to be watched between seasons 3 and 4. As far as bsg specials go, razor's a pretty good one.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: The E on October 15, 2010, 06:27:56 am
Chronologically, Razor takes place between Episodes 17 and 18 of Season 2.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: newman on October 15, 2010, 06:57:54 am
True. It kinda jumps around, chronologically. I just can't remember if it contains any spoilers for pre-season 4 stuff so it's probably safest to watch in the order of release - that is between seasons 3 and 4.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: The E on October 15, 2010, 07:12:07 am
I don't think there's any spoilerage for later seasons. The story is framed around what Lee does between 17 and 18, and is mostly flashbacks.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: MR_T3D on October 15, 2010, 01:17:21 pm
I definitely think that this debate should be pilot chatter for the start of mission.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Snagger on October 24, 2010, 03:09:10 pm


By the way NGTM-1R, which organisations actually make it the Officer in question's choice? I'm genuinely curious. I've never heard of any female officers kicking up a stink over being called ma'am.

Nor have I, but I've seen plenty of women get very upset about being confused for a man!
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: ethaninja on October 25, 2010, 07:29:50 pm
I definitely think that this debate should be pilot chatter for the start of mission.

Haha that's a beautiful idea =D
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: CooperHawkes on November 03, 2010, 07:07:17 am
This isn't page 10!

So it's not a problem to call women in the BSGverse "Sir". On the other hand... it shouldn't be a problem to call Mr. Fat Lee "Ma'am". Right? Especially after the Pegasus incident.

Does it work both ways? Should it work both ways?
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on November 03, 2010, 07:26:19 am
Given that 'sir' was apparently originally a gender-neutral term when it came into being, whereas madam/ma'am never was (I believe)? No, don't think so.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: z64555 on November 03, 2010, 09:45:31 am
I think sir is descendant from "sire" which means lord, master, leader, etc.

Ma'am however descendant from "madam," which could also be descendant from "My Dame"... which is also a title of rank.

However, if you'll notice that there's a "My" in front of it, which could be one of the reasons why it could be considered derogative.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on November 03, 2010, 09:55:58 am
I think sir is descendant from "sire" which means lord, master, leader, etc

Yeah I think it's descended from 'signeur', lord, or so sayeth NGTM-1R. Probably didn't get all that many wimmen lords though.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on November 03, 2010, 01:04:08 pm
Dame's the female counterpart I think. Like Judy Dench. Although the My is dropped . . . . This would be so much easier in the olden days.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: z64555 on November 03, 2010, 02:26:57 pm
Didn't the Olde Celtics have a culture that had women lords? or maybe I'm thinking of a native American tribe or two...
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: rscaper1070 on November 03, 2010, 02:57:08 pm
I forget her name but wasn't there a Celtic woman leader that gave the Romans hell for awhile?
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on November 03, 2010, 02:58:28 pm
I forget her name but wasn't there a Celtic woman leader that gave the Romans hell for awhile?

Yes. Boadicea/Boudica.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 03, 2010, 03:02:02 pm
Yeah I think it's descended from 'signeur', lord, or so sayeth NGTM-1R.

I'm just quoting Wikipedia.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Colonol Dekker on November 03, 2010, 03:29:42 pm
I forget her name but wasn't there a Celtic woman leader that gave the Romans hell for awhile?

Yes. Boadicea/Boudica.

Queen of the Iceni tribe.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Snagger on November 04, 2010, 02:52:34 pm
Didn't the Olde Celtics have a culture that had women lords? or maybe I'm thinking of a native American tribe or two...
Quite a few cultures around the globe are/were matriarchal - the Iceni weren't in anyway unique or even rare in that respect.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: z64555 on November 04, 2010, 02:55:42 pm
I wasn't too great in Social Studies back in the day. I'm doing good to remember what day the 4th of July is.  :p
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: z64555 on November 05, 2010, 06:46:26 pm
Just had a thought... if "My Dame" is considered demeaning, then why isn't "My Lord?"

I'm thinking that there's another reason behind all this...
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: General Battuta on November 05, 2010, 06:50:00 pm
If it's going to be considered demeaning, it's because women are associated with positions of secondary authority, child care, emotion and weakness.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Vertigo 7 on December 08, 2010, 10:29:01 pm
here's an interesting tidbit:

Quote
The title of Dame is the female equivalent of the honour of knighthood in the British honours system (The word 'damehood' is not used). It is also the equivalent form address to 'Sir' for a knight. A woman appointed to the grades of Commander or Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath, Order of St Michael and St George or Royal Victorian Order or Knight of the Order of the British Empire becomes a Dame. Because there is no female equivalent of a Knight Bachelor, women are always appointed to an order of chivalry. Women who are appointed to the Order of the Garter or Order of the Thistle are not given the title of "Dame" but "Lady".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dame_(title)

and

Quote
Madam, or madame, is a polite title used for women which, in English, is the equivalent of Mrs. or Ms., and is often found abbreviated as ma'am, and less frequently as ma'm. It is derived from the French madame, which means "my lady", the feminine form of lord; the plural of ma dame in this sense is mes dames. The French is in turn derived from the Latin mea domina, meaning "my mistress (of the house)".[1] "Madam" is also found used to refer to a woman who owns or runs a brothel,[2][3] though the abbreviated form "ma'am" is not used in this respect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madame
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Grizzly on January 26, 2011, 02:20:48 am
Just had a thought... if "My Dame" is considered demeaning, then why isn't "My Lord?"

I'm thinking that there's another reason behind all this...

My Lady and My Lord both mean the same thing: My Master.

Quote
If it's going to be considered demeaning, it's because women are associated with positions of secondary authority, child care, emotion and weakness.

If someone considers calling someone a 'she' (which is bassicly what calling someone 'ma'am' is, calling someone a 'supuriour she') is associating the term with a position of secondary authority, then that is his or her problem. There have been quite a few instances where a women certainly wasn't a secondary authority (many a monarchy, for example).
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: newman on January 26, 2011, 03:40:02 am
This topic's been dead for a month and a half.
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: StarSlayer on January 26, 2011, 06:54:39 am
This topic's been dead for a month and a half.
(http://www.entertainmentbuddha.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/1128673770_sBoba_Fett.jpg)
Ha Ha I'm back from the dead Assholes!
Title: Re: Gender blindness
Post by: Horizon on February 05, 2011, 12:50:58 am
There was a time when a few military institutions and even corporations used the term "Sir" to refer to both male and female members of heirarchy.  The reason was to level the playing field of those subordinate.  At the time, the men of the service were entirely used to calling their leaders "Sir."  In fact, they did so automatically, as indoctrinated in them during training.  When they first allowed women to serve in the military, the term was carried with them as well, to ease the transition of those beneath and around them.  It carried the weight of authority for them more than 'ma'am' did, which was important for the psychological acceptance of those working beneath. 

I'm not aware of it being used such anymore, but there was a time when it was common.  It was also meant to give the women of the service, who worked so hard for their positions of respect, a feeling of being equal to their male counterparts in said authority and respect. 

It is a throwback to that time, when it was considered progressive and equal instead of awkward.  Their goal, literally as you say, was to be "Gender-Blind."  In the 60s and 70s, when progressive movements started in earnest for women in the military, forward leaning aspirations from places like hollywood and television promoted this ideal and idea for blindness through..you guessed it, Sci-Fi stories, fantasy stories, and the like.  Sci-Fi has always been a platform for pushing new human rights' ideas and presenting complex human issues in ways that do not offend or alarm anyone. 

I honestly think that using the "Sir" for everyone, even in the minds of those watching the new series, makes us truly think of a society that has put gender-bias behind them in the military a long time ago and never thought twice about it, hence never changing the "Sir" to "Ma'am," which is another manifestation of "I'm not quite comfortable with this and need to seperate male and female authority in my mind."