Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: General Battuta on November 04, 2010, 03:04:38 pm
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You know how a large fraction of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim?
I need examples of similar political myths from your countries. Mossad planned 9/11. Benazir Bhutto was killed by a CIA laser. Things that are common enough that one could reasonably find survey data about them.
It would be a huge help to get any of this.
Thanks!
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you mean there's still people who don't think Israel was involved?
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you mean there's still people who don't think Israel was involved?
That's almost as stupid as the idea that the US government was behind 9/11.
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you mean there's still people who don't think Israel was involved?
That's almost as stupid as the idea that the US government was behind 9/11.
Israel's always trying to get us to fight their wars for them. Did you pay attention to what happened after 9/11? Mission ****ing accomplished. Now they got us barking at Iran already. It's some serious bull****.
-Edit: Sorry for derailment. I am a bit under the weather today.
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The only thing that comes to my mind regarding german politics are the suicides of the leaders of the Rote Armee Fraktion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction) while in custody (The theory being that they were either executed, or had substantial help in the prison).
Also, what are you americans doing in here?
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No one said non-Americans couldn't post, we just can't share our bull**** (and if we do, hey, disregard us :nervous: ).
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Also, what are you americans doing in here?
Some of us might have extensive knowledge of foreign countries, y'know.
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Oh, there's no disputing that. But 9/11 is a distinctively american conspiracy theory, I think. Not the sort of more localized stuff GB's looking for here.
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Does this count? (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=72102.0)
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Look up Mr Harold Holt for some good Aussie ones.
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Most of the conspiracy theories that I know of originate from US. I can't think of a single conspiracy theory at the moment that would be from EU region.
Oh wait, some people believe that EU is Germany's way to dominate Europe.
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Most of the conspiracy theories that I know of originate from US. I can't think of a single conspiracy theory at the moment that would be from EU region.
You haven't been paying much attention to the Brits, at the least.
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Oh wait, some people believe that EU is Germany's way to dominate Europe.
:wakka:
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Most of the conspiracy theories that I know of originate from US. I can't think of a single conspiracy theory at the moment that would be from EU region.
7/7?
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Look up Mr Harold Holt for some good Aussie ones.
Convinced it was a Jap sub that took him.
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I sense anti-american discrimination.
BATTUTA WANTS THE TERRORISTS TO WIN
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Not exactly non-American, but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44mqiBrB0zI
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Look up Mr Harold Holt for some good Aussie ones.
Convinced it was a Jap sub that took him.
As am I.
YELLOW PERIL GUYS RUN
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Look up Mr Harold Holt for some good Aussie ones.
Convinced it was a Jap sub that took him.
As am I.
YELLOW PERIL GUYS RUN
Domino effect is a real issue!
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BATTUTA WANTS THE TERRORISTS TO WIN
(http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/thumb/5/54/MTMTEWildrider.jpg/300px-MTMTEWildrider.jpg)
When slow people race Wildrider Batutta, THE TERRORISTS WIN.
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The latest conspiracy theory within islamic terrorist groups is that if you if you blow yourself up that you will not go to heaven. Of course there's serious speculation on both sides of this theory.
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Does the whole MMR jabs cause autism nonsense count? I mean that there isn't much of a conspiracy element to it. You'll get some who believe in some shadowy Big Pharma covering it all up bull**** but most simply believe its just the government being inept rather than malicious.
With the exception of the one about Britain always losing the Eurovision Song Contest cause everyone else in Europe hates us, I'm struggling to think of a single conspiracy theory that has gained any kind of ground in the UK to be honest. :p And even there most people realise we might stand a chance if we sent in an act that wasn't absolute ****. :p
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I'm American, but I recently saw a statistic that said 60% of Americans think we went to Iraq because they supported the 9/11 terrorists or some crap like that.
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I'm American, but I recently saw a statistic that said 60% of Americans think we went to Iraq because they supported the 9/11 terrorists or some crap like that.
Yes, we know. The goal of this thread is to get those kind of statistics (or directions to start looking) for countries that are not America.
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I'm not non-American per say, but I do live in a foreign country.
Most of the **** we hear about politicians here(Taiwan) actually turns out to be true..
I do think there something about a few politicians having communist ties. Stuff like that usually comes from the opposing party, which is almost always worth about nothing. Only stupid people believe in it, but then again we do have our share of stupid people here...
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Well, the British Nationalist Party's (somewhat extreme) anti-immigration/pro-emigration policy is popular in Britain because lots of people think that the immigrants have come in and stolen all the better jobs/doing other jazz to ruin their economy. Problem is, it's sorta/almost true... but it's also trying to justify what amounts to racism, so lots of people don't like the BNP.
In Japan, many people don't believe that their country committed war crimes in WWII.
Koreans think that a couple of Chinese holidays are actually theirs, such as the DuanWu festival, and another one that they're arguing for that I don't recall the name of. Many people (namely, 1.3B chinese) call bull****, but the UNESCO ruled in favor for the Koreans. I'm not too clear on the issue, but it might be relevant to your interests.
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I'm trying to think of some bat-**** insane Canadian nonsense, and everything I think up has to do with our connection to the United States.
Seriously... I'm at a loss.
EDIT: Aha! The myth that the Conservative government wants to ban abortions. Not near as high-profile as the Obama=Muslim nonsense, but it rears its ugly head from time to time.
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I'm trying to think of some bat-**** insane Canadian nonsense, and everything I think up has to do with our connection to the United States.
Seriously... I'm at a loss.
yeah, same here.
we're to sane!
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Our former president recently died, the same day a census was being made in the entire nation.
Word is that he's not dead, that this was a move to push her wife up on the popularity chart for the reelection, of course no one will jump in the media to say such a thing (so you might not find anything about it).
Still I couldn't care less since I'm not gonna vote for her anyway :p
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7/7?
Bombs going of in UK? Tell me something new.
The related conspiracy theories are mainly thought by Brits, few outside UK care enough to even think about it. And I'm not even sure how many of the Britons really care.
I can't think of any other stuff - with the exception of Germany taking over EU - that would fit in the criteria.
EDIT: Actually, I wonder how many people think that the Polish president was assassinated in that air crash? But from what I heard, the cockpit voice recorders pretty much negate this theory.
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I also heard Canadians have a guy that runs around tying defenseless women to railroad tracks.
(http://goldenstate.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/ar119401186102816.jpg)
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I think the conspiracy theory thing is a fascination of the American public and thus mostly limited to the states. Kinda like tea over here.
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<- drinks Earl Grey every day with breakfast when it's available.
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/me drinks Dilmah on a daily basis.
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Australians on immigration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOI_skq5TuM
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:lol:
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I'm trying to think of some bat-**** insane Canadian nonsense, and everything I think up has to do with our connection to the United States.
Seriously... I'm at a loss.
EDIT: Aha! The myth that the Conservative government wants to ban abortions. Not near as high-profile as the Obama=Muslim nonsense, but it rears its ugly head from time to time.
Stephen Harper is a robot.
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I also heard Canadians have a guy that runs around tying defenseless women to railroad tracks.
(http://goldenstate.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/ar119401186102816.jpg)
And that the mounties put uniforms on there horses too.
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Koreans think that a couple of Chinese holidays are actually theirs, such as the DuanWu festival, and another one that they're arguing for that I don't recall the name of. Many people (namely, 1.3B chinese) call bull****, but the UNESCO ruled in favor for the Koreans. I'm not too clear on the issue, but it might be relevant to your interests.
The original stories for those festivals (and other things that they try to steal) are in Chinese, and there tons of references and influences in Chinese literature besides...
Last I checked Chinese =! Korean. :/
I think this thread has only proved that people believe in weird stuff.... which is sometimes true.
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With the exception of the one about Britain always losing the Eurovision Song Contest cause everyone else in Europe hates us
Actually, we always lose Eurovision because if we won, we'd have to host it the next year.
That would cost far too much, so we always choose acts that are utter **** to make sure that we never win it again.
The hosts then act surprised to try to cover it up.
- There is definitely some truth to this theory, as RTE was nearly bankrupted when Ireland won Eurovision three times in a row.
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Oh wait, some people believe that EU is Germany's way to dominate Europe.
:wakka:
There is actually a (IMHO not really good) novel about this, entitled Budapest Protocol (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Budapest-Protocol-Adam-LeBor/dp/1906702128).
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Oh, there's no disputing that. But 9/11 is a distinctively american conspiracy theory, I think. Not the sort of more localized stuff GB's looking for here.
I've run into truthers here in Denmark. They had a big "9/11 is bigger than watergate" poster. Similarly, there has been a constant presence of far-left protesters infront of Amalienborg Palace. Every day they have like two or three people in there with signs, placards, etc. They have a lot of stuff, for example revealing the corruption of the leaders we're propping up in Afghanistan, but amongst all their newspaper clippings, I noticed some 911 truther nonsense: The good old "the towers were blown up with thermite"; "impossible rubble" as they call it. I think this MIGHT be due to the fact that the idiot who's championing this argument, Niels Harrit, is Danish.
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I'm trying to think of some bat-**** insane Canadian nonsense, and everything I think up has to do with our connection to the United States.
Seriously... I'm at a loss.
EDIT: Aha! The myth that the Conservative government wants to ban abortions. Not near as high-profile as the Obama=Muslim nonsense, but it rears its ugly head from time to time.
There was that time that the Canadians and the United States had attack plans against each other in the middle of WWII
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With the exception of the one about Britain always losing the Eurovision Song Contest cause everyone else in Europe hates us
Actually, we always lose Eurovision because if we won, we'd have to host it the next year.
That would cost far too much, so we always choose acts that are utter **** to make sure that we never win it again.
The hosts then act surprised to try to cover it up.
- There is definitely some truth to this theory, as RTE was nearly bankrupted when Ireland won Eurovision three times in a row.
Ah, the Father Ted conspiracy. :p
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It appears that the best way to get as much as possible American conspiracy political myths out in a thread is to start a thread saying that's exactly not what you need. Jeez, guys..
Anyway.
There was a local conspiracy theory saying that former Yugoslavia's life long boss-man, Josip Broz Tito, was eliminated (I think) while visiting the Soviet Union, and replaced with a Soviet agent who looked identical to him. As "proof" the conspiracy theorists claim that Tito lost one of his fingers as a child but the man who claimed to be the illustrious Marshall had all of his fingers. There was a variation of this theory that only varied in the place where Tito was supposedly murdered and replaced.
At some point there was a bit of talk about that in Croatia, but I haven't heard anything on it in years and I doubt many people believed in it in the first place.
You can find a bit more about it here (http://dalje.com/en-world/ten-biggest-world-conspiracy-theories/253776), under 4) just below the mandatory faked moon landing idiocy :)
For a bit more hilarity, check out number 7) on the same link.. big fan of "V", I take it?
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Man, that's right up there with "Paul is dead." :p
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Oh. Here's some: Some dutch believe that Geert Wilder's loyalty is to Israel, and not to Holland. He apperently recieves orders from the Isreali goverment to advance their interests and oppose anyone opposed to zionism.
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Uh. . . how deeply could the Netherlands foreign policy to Israel possibly be?
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Oh. Here's some: Some dutch believe that Geert Wilder's loyalty is to Israel, and not to Holland. He apperently recieves orders from the Isreali goverment to advance their interests and oppose anyone opposed to zionism.
A funny thing to do when someone brings up stuff like "X is a Zionist agent", is to agree, and then say that Jews run the world, the banks, etc, just to see if they'll roll with it! :D
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Uh. . . how deeply could the Netherlands foreign policy to Israel possibly be?
Not much.
It's a conspiracy theory. He apperently visits the Israel embassy often. To me it actually seems like what all ultra nationalists are doeing: We hate muslims. Israel hates muslims. So we love Israel because they bomb them. We hate muslims because they bomb Israel and it's innocent jews. You know. The usual.
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Uh. . . how deeply could the Netherlands foreign policy to Israel possibly be?
Not much.
It's a conspiracy theory. He apperently visits the Israel embassy often. To me it actually seems like what all ultra nationalists are doeing: We hate muslims. Israel hates muslims. So we love Israel because they bomb them. We hate muslims because they bomb Israel and it's innocent jews. You know. The usual.
The American fundagelicals are a bit different: They support Israel because the bible says that when Israel becomes a nation again(something very much to that effect), armageddon will come and Jesus will return. That's why they support Israel, and it's not even a lie! That's the basis for the Christian right-wing's support for Israel.
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The American fundagelicals are a bit different: They support Israel because the bible says that when Israel becomes a nation again(something very much to that effect), armageddon will come and Jesus will return. That's why they support Israel, and it's not even a lie! That's the basis for the Christian right-wing's support for Israel.
It's pretty funny I think, with all our ideals of separation of church and state, our foreign policy in an entire region is dictated by an inference from a religious text.
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So if we stop supporting Israel, who should we support over there instead?
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So if we stop supporting Israel, who should we support over there instead?
No one?
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So if we stop supporting Israel, who should we support over there instead?
Given that the Republican position is that the government shouldn't support people from it's own country because that's socialism you really have to wonder what is their justification for supporting other countries that don't even pay taxes! :p
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So if we stop supporting Israel, who should we support over there instead?
No one?
This.
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Here in Italy there are many "truthers" convinced that the contrails of the aeroplanes are really chemicals used by the government/NWO/Masonry/reptilians/CIA etc. to control/kill people/alter the Weather/diffuse vaccines (sic), in the conspiration are also included aeroplane pilots and metereologists as well as the members of the CICAP (our local sceptical society) often accused of being agents of the above mentioned organizations.
There are some politicians here who truly believe this crap and some mayors declared their towns and cities "chemtrail free zones" (whatevere that is supposed to mean) and a couple of deputies proposed laws against "chemtrails".
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Man, if we could diffuse vaccines thru jet exhaust, that'd be pretty awesome.
One can only hope.
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Man, if we could diffuse vaccines thru jet exhaust, that'd be pretty awesome.
One can only hope.
The problem is that the people who sustain that theory are also convinced that vaccines are deadly poisons. :D
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The problem is that the people who sustain that theory are also convinced that vaccines are deadly poisons. :D
Sounds to me like that theory will die off by itself :D
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While I realise this thread is a parody rather than a serious discussion, I guess I should link a site that deals in covering conspiracies (Not theories). http://www.prisonplanet.com/ Check out what's being said and done there.
I don't like crazy conspiracy theories myself, especially the whole UFO crap. I'm much more interested in Shivans than the usual stuff UFO people come up with. Still, economical, financial, psychological and other situations are definitely interesting me.
Sometimes people think something is a conspiracy theory because it sounds unbelievable at first, and in some cases it is crap (like aforementioned) but when you research normal documents you can definitely find out a lot of interesting and sometimes scary stuff.
So, don't immediately dismiss something, but take a few minutes to Google it up. Helped me found out what's true and what's crap.
- JC
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While I realise this thread is a parody rather than a serious discussion,
Uh, it is a serious discussion. About ideas we believe are neither serious nor founded in fact.
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A lot of good material from outside the US has come up here. The trick is going to be selecting one that has accompanying, robust poll data.
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There are some politicians here who truly believe this crap and some mayors declared their towns and cities "chemtrail free zones" (whatevere that is supposed to mean) and a couple of deputies proposed laws against "chemtrails".
How does that work? Do they get a SAM site set up to shoot down passing airliners or something?
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How does that work? Do they get a SAM site set up to shoot down passing airliners or something?
No, but it is estimated they have serious surface-to-air insult capabilities.
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Plus, they shoot down offending airliners with catapulted cattle.
MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
JESUS CHRI--
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fetchez la vache
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A lot of good material from outside the US has come up here. The trick is going to be selecting one that has accompanying, robust poll data.
But usually, polls don't bother with conspiracy theories as they are mostly not based upon anything.
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There are some politicians here who truly believe this crap and some mayors declared their towns and cities "chemtrail free zones" (whatevere that is supposed to mean) and a couple of deputies proposed laws against "chemtrails".
How does that work? Do they get a SAM site set up to shoot down passing airliners or something?
Plus, they shoot down offending airliners with catapulted cattle.
MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
JESUS CHRI--
How does that work? Do they get a SAM site set up to shoot down passing airliners or something?
No, but it is estimated they have serious surface-to-air insult capabilities.
LOL!!! :lol:
I forgot to add the conspiracy theory about banknotes: according to this theory the difference between the value of banknotes and the cost of their production is stolen by the banks everytime a banknote is being printed.
Of course the basic fact that the value of money is based on the health of the economy of the state that emits it is just secondary. :D
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A lot of good material from outside the US has come up here. The trick is going to be selecting one that has accompanying, robust poll data.
But usually, polls don't bother with conspiracy theories as they are mostly not based upon anything.
Polling data exists for the belief that Obama is a Muslim or that Obama was not born in the US. We're looking for similar stuff.
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Polling data exists for the belief that Obama is a Muslim or that Obama was not born in the US.
Jeez, you'd think people have better things to do with their resources. ;)
I guess that has the potential to affect voter behavior, though.
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Polling data exists for the belief that Obama is a Muslim or that Obama was not born in the US.
Jeez, you'd think people have better things to do with their resources. ;)
I guess that has the potential to affect voter behavior, though.
Understanding the spread of these types of myths and how they couple with voter behavior is indeed extremely important.
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I forgot to add the conspiracy theory about banknotes: according to this theory the difference between the value of banknotes and the cost of their production is stolen by the banks everytime a banknote is being printed.
Of course the basic fact that the value of money is based on the health of the economy of the state that emits it is just secondary. :D
You reminded me of something on the money topic, except it's real (not necessarily a conspiracy either, it's sort of known). But again, it's american. The fact that modern american money is WORTHLESS. Old bills use to say they were redeemable in gold or silver. Todays bills say that they are "Legal Tender For All Debts Public And Private" and no longer say they are redeemable for gold or silver.
In fact the american constitution says "No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.".
It says only gold and silver. Today's american money is not backed by gold or silver. It's worthless because my government needs to be expanding or contracting the money supply based on economic conditions. I now love my worthless money that inflates all the time.
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Not quite, the value of money is based on the health of the economy of a state (or economical area in the case of the Euro Area) and economy experts consider the theory paranoid and often associated with conspiracy theories...
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I forgot to add the conspiracy theory about banknotes: according to this theory the difference between the value of banknotes and the cost of their production is stolen by the banks everytime a banknote is being printed.
Of course the basic fact that the value of money is based on the health of the economy of the state that emits it is just secondary. :D
You reminded me of something on the money topic, except it's real (not necessarily a conspiracy either, it's sort of known). But again, it's american. The fact that modern american money is WORTHLESS. Old bills use to say they were redeemable in gold or silver. Todays bills say that they are "Legal Tender For All Debts Public And Private" and no longer say they are redeemable for gold or silver.
In fact the american constitution says "No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.".
It says only gold and silver. Today's american money is not backed by gold or silver. It's worthless because my government needs to be expanding or contracting the money supply based on economic conditions. I now love my worthless money that inflates all the time.
The only reason gold has value is because we place value on it. It is also much more dense than a piece of paper, which makes it quite impractical to move.
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It's also infinitely reusable, and doesn't tarnish.
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Not quite, the value of money is based on the health of the economy of a state (or economical area in the case of the Euro Area) and economy experts consider the theory paranoid and often associated with conspiracy theories...
I'm pretty sure the fact that the dollar is now worth only a tiny fraction of what it was when we went off the gold standard isn't a conspiracy. The problem has been a change in economic policy. Thanks Kaynes.
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Not quite, the value of money is based on the health of the economy of a state (or economical area in the case of the Euro Area) and economy experts consider the theory paranoid and often associated with conspiracy theories...
I'm pretty sure the fact that the dollar is now worth only a tiny fraction of what it was when we went off the gold standard isn't a conspiracy. The problem has been a change in economic policy. Thanks Kaynes.
Keynes. And inflation isn't problematic; in fact it's a key element of healthy economic growth. People are bizarrely, superstitiously fearful about it, but it's only uncontrolled inflation that's problematic.
Deflation is actually much more frightening.
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Not quite, the value of money is based on the health of the economy of a state (or economical area in the case of the Euro Area) and economy experts consider the theory paranoid and often associated with conspiracy theories...
I'm pretty sure the fact that the dollar is now worth only a tiny fraction of what it was when we went off the gold standard isn't a conspiracy. The problem has been a change in economic policy. Thanks Kaynes.
Keynes. And inflation isn't problematic; in fact it's a key element of healthy economic growth. People are bizarrely, superstitiously fearful about it, but it's only uncontrolled inflation that's problematic.
Deflation is actually much more frightening.
The 70's called, they want their stagflation back........
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Not quite, the value of money is based on the health of the economy of a state (or economical area in the case of the Euro Area) and economy experts consider the theory paranoid and often associated with conspiracy theories...
Of which i'll say no **** too of course. Economies go through some crashes every now and again, and it is healthy to do so, they will always happen. I'm saying that by which my government now deals with recessions and debt is ****ty because it inflates the money. During recession and debt, the government wants to print more bills, not during recession or debt they want to not stop printing so many bills. In my opinion during the modern day this has gotten excessive.
The only reason gold has value is because we place value on it. It is also much more dense than a piece of paper, which makes it quite impractical to move.
The value of gold does not change. Gold is static, it does not gain interest and it's quality does not change. In which case, because of economic change of policy to start printing more bills during a recession or when the government gets in debt; this raises the price of gold. The price of gold has only gone up because of the increasing worthlessness of paper money. In which case paper money is not static, it does gain interest and it's quality does change.
Technically, money was better back in the day when the currency was 100% backed by gold (at least i consider it to be absolutely better). I consider it better because people who have gold don't lose money where people holding paper money lose money because of inflation. Gold preserved the value of the dollar.
In which case i think that money printing has gotten too crazy today (my opinion). What the real conspiracy that i'm trying to point out here (that people missed in my last post) is that todays bills no longer say they are redeemable for their value in gold like the old ones used too. I used the fact that debts in the constitution says are only payable by silver or gold, and the fact that today's bill no longer say they are redeemable for their value in gold. You can't pay debts according to the constitution with worthless currency (what i call IOU's). Why does paper money today say it is no longer redeemable for the equivalent value in actual gold like it used to say? Why is this trying to be forgotten?
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The value of gold does not change.
False statement! The value of gold, as with everything else in the world, is subjective. A person not brought up with any familiarity with it would probably just say "oh, a pretty rock" if you showed them a piece. People assign value to gold and use it to back currency for trade. It would be just as possible to use silver. Or steel. Or coal. Or rubber. Or anything that people want and are willing to trade for.
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Well, being rare and useful helps.
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That is true. On the other hand i found out what's up with the dollar. It's a flat currency. So i guess another one to speculate at is why paper money is able to pay off debts since the constitution doesn't allow for bills of credit (the dollar). Bills of credit are credit. Credit is a contractual agreement in which a borrower receives something of value now and agrees to repay the lender at some time later.
Today's money is IOU's when it's not supposed to be.
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Thank **** we're off the gold standard. Every credible economist I've ever met considers it an obsolete economic deathtrap. There's a reason our economy is so much smoother today than it used to be!
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That's if you don't mind being paid in credit. I know i mind. It means everything i buy i do not own because i'm buying with credit from the government. Paying for things with only credit is dangerous. In this case using government credits means that the repo guys is the government. The only thing to worry about is when they decide to exercise their power over credit.
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yeahno
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That's if you don't mind being paid in credit. I know i mind. It means everything i buy i do not own because i'm buying with credit from the government. Paying for things with only credit is dangerous. In this case using government credits means that the repo guys is the government. The only thing to worry about is when they decide to exercise their power over credit.
Your ignorance, it is astonishing.
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Thing is, all the money in circulation now is worth more than all the gold in the world. The gold standard limits you to just the value of how much gold is in existence.
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Money is a middleman, a buffer. Instead of having to barter your particular good or service for all the other necessary or desired goods and services, you receive money.
Whether your money is based off of the government, the value of bronze, or the current distance to Mercury it stands as a form of CREDIT yes. You're paid in credit, you are credited with whatever it is you do for a living. You have a contract that says you receive so much CREDIT an hour.
Gold also varied widely in value throughout history, as demand goes up and down, smelting techniques get better and worse, piracy occurs. It does have a relatively high value, being rare.
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That doesn't get rid of the fact that they're just and only bills of credit. The dollar isn't worth anything because it's only credit. The result is a financial loss and transference of debt from the government to the people. This results in further inflation, further weakening of the dollar, increases unemployment, and will damage trade.
Thing is, all the money in circulation now is worth more than all the gold in the world. The gold standard limits you to just the value of how much gold is in existence.
Wow, that's scary to hear you say :lol: How can bills of credit have more value than gold?
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Dude.
The economy as a whole, as an aggregation of all goods and services that circulate each and every day, is worth more (A LOT MORE) than all the gold in the world. If we took you seriously (and thank god we aren't), "a dollar's worth of gold" would be something like a few micrograms of shiny golden stuff.
For your education, please read Neal Stephensons' Baroque Cycle (especially book 2), and Terry Pratchetts' Making Money.
But since you probably won't, here's the cliff's notes version, copied from da wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard#Theory):
Let's see, listed advantages of the gold standard are:
- Long-term price stability has been described as the great virtue of the gold standard.[15] Under the gold standard, high levels of inflation are rare and hyperinflation is impossible as the money supply can only grow at the rate that the gold supply increases. Economy-wide price increases caused by ever-increasing amounts of currency chasing a constant supply of goods are rare, as gold supply for monetary use is limited by the available gold that can be minted into coin. High levels of inflation under a gold standard are usually seen only when warfare destroys a large part of the economy, reducing the production of goods, or when a major new source of gold becomes available. In the U.S. one of those periods of warfare was the Civil War, which destroyed the economy of the South,[16] while the California Gold Rush made large amounts of gold available for minting.[17]
- The gold standard limits the power of governments to inflate prices through excessive issuance of paper currency. It provides fixed international exchange rates between those countries that have adopted it, and thus reduces uncertainty in international trade. Historically, imbalances between price levels in different countries would be partly or wholly offset by an automatic balance-of-payment adjustment mechanism called the "price specie flow mechanism."
- The gold standard makes chronic deficit spending by governments more difficult, as it prevents governments from 'inflating away' the real value of their debts.[18] A central bank cannot be an unlimited buyer of last resort of government debt. A central bank could not create unlimited quantities of money at will, as there is a limited supply of gold.
The disadvantages listed are:
- A gold standard leads to deflation whenever an economy using the gold standard grows faster than the gold supply. When an economy grows faster than its money supply, the same money must be used to execute a larger volume of transactions. The only ways of achieving this are for the money to circulate faster or to lower the cost of the transactions. If deflation drives costs down, the real value of each unit of money goes up. This increases the value of cash, and decreases the monetary value of real assets, since the same asset can be purchased with less money. This in turn tends to increase the ratio of debts to assets . For example, assuming interest rates remain unchanged, the monthly cost of a fixed-rate home mortgage stays the same, but the value of the house goes down, and the value of the money required to pay the mortgage goes up. Thus deflation rewards cash savings.
- Deflation rewards savers[19][20] and punishes debtors.[21][22] Real debt burdens therefore rise, causing borrowers to cut spending to service their debts or to default. Lenders become wealthier, but may choose to save some of their additional wealth rather than spending it all. The overall amount of expenditure is therefore likely to fall.[23] Deflation also prevents a central bank of its ability to stimulate spending.[23] Deflation is considered to be difficult to control, and to be a serious economic risk. However in practice it has always been possible for governments to control deflation by leaving the gold standard or by artificial expenditure
- The total amount of gold that has ever been mined has been estimated at around 142,000 metric tons.[26] Assuming a gold price of US$1,000 per ounce, or $32,500 per kilogram, the total value of all the gold ever mined would be around $4.5 trillion. This is less than the value of circulating money in the U.S. alone, where more than $8.3 trillion is in circulation or in deposit (M2).[27] Therefore, a return to the gold standard, if also combined with a mandated end to fractional reserve banking, would result in a significant increase in the current value of gold, which may limit its use in current applications.[28] For example, instead of using the ratio of $1,000 per ounce, the ratio can be defined as $2,000 per ounce effectively raising the value of gold to $9 trillion. However, this is specifically a disadvantage of return to the gold standard and not the efficacy of the gold standard itself. Some gold standard advocates consider this to be both acceptable and necessary[29] whilst others who are not opposed to fractional reserve banking argue that only base currency and not deposits would need to be replaced.[citation needed] The amount of such base currency (M0) is only about one tenth as much as the figure (M2) listed above.[30]
- Many economists believe that economic recessions can be largely mitigated by increasing money supply during economic downturns.[31] Following a gold standard would mean that the amount of money would be determined by the supply of gold, and hence monetary policy could no longer be used to stabilize the economy in times of economic recession.[32] Such reason is often employed to partially blame the gold standard for the Great Depression, citing that the Federal Reserve couldn't expand credit enough to offset the deflationary forces at work in the market. Opponents of this viewpoint have argued that gold stocks were available to the Federal Reserve for credit expansion in the early 1930s, but Fed operatives failed to utilize them
- Monetary policy would essentially be determined by the rate of gold production. Fluctuations in the amount of gold that is mined could cause inflation if there is an increase, or deflation if there is a decrease.[34][35] Some hold the view that this contributed to the severity and length of the Great Depression as the gold standard forced the central banks to keep monetary policy too tight, creating deflation.[28][36] Milton Friedman however argued that the main cause of the severity of the Great Depression in the United States was the Federal Reserve, and not the gold standard, as they willfully kept monetary policy tighter than was required by the gold standard.[37] Additionally three increases by the Federal Reserve in bank reserve requirements in 1936 and 1937, which doubled bank reserve requirements [38] lead to yet another contraction of the money supply.
- Although the gold standard gives long term price stability, it does in the short term bring high price volatility. In the United States from 1879 to 1913 the coefficient of variation of the annual change in price levels was 17.0, whereas from 1943 to 1990 it was only 0.88.[35] It has been argued by among others Anna Schwartz that this kind of instability in short term price levels can lead to financial instability as lenders and borrowers become uncertain about the value of debt
- Some have contended that the gold standard may be susceptible to speculative attacks when a government's financial position appears weak, although others contend that this very threat discourages governments' engaging in risky policy (see Moral Hazard). For example, some believe the United States was forced to raise its interest rates in the middle of the Great Depression to defend the credibility of its currency after unusually easy credit policies in the 1920s.[36] This disadvantage however is shared by all fixed exchange rate regimes and not just limited to gold money. All fixed currencies that appear weak are subject to speculative attack.[40]
- If a country wanted to devalue its currency it would generally produce sharper changes than the smooth declines seen in fiat currencies, depending on the method of devaluation.[41]
But then, you are contend with quoting stuff from the typically american "Oh teh noes, guvmint bad" playbook. Which, it may surprise you, isn't generally accepted as being valid globally.
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Gold changes in value all the time. The gold price is on the news every day - not so long ago (the nineties) it was in the ****ter, and gold mines were closing down all over the place. Now it's healthy again, and old mines are being reopened. It's like any commodity - it changes. You could just as easily back your currency off silver, timber, grain - anything that has value. Or, you could back it off the strength of the total economy, which is what countries off the gold standard do.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Gold_price_in_USD.png)
That graph adjusts for inslation and such, so you can see the variability in the gold price.
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I'm talking about more than just gold here. Flat currency is what's central to what i'm talking about. My mention of gold in the beginning was uneducated and really didn't need to be mentioned. For gold my further mentioning of gold, i think money was better when it was backed by gold; when the american dollar was a check for gold (redeemable for gold).
Today the american dollar is a bill of credit. For my stance on the government is not that they are the enemy, but that they made a mistake putting into circulation bills of credit. Which is why the dollar is no longer redeemable for equal value in gold. Bills of credit have no value in principal and technicality. Bills of credit only have value because someone says they do; in this case the government.
And people will go "oh noez, S-99 still playing from the guberments the evil enemy book". If that's all people will read from me, then fine. Can anyone talk about flat currency for a minute? I mean sheesh, i was told "you're wrong about gold, you're wrong about gold", and that's fine. That's why i stopped talking about value of gold and stuck with gold just being a backing for a currency.
Granted i make some mistakes. But one thing i try not to do, is only pay attention to one detail in something some wrote or said and consider all the rest moot or should be ignored.
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First of all, it's fiat currency, not flat currency.
Second, no matter what fixed value you choose to link your currency to, be it gold, oil, or bacon, you still get the same problems that you get when you back your money with gold.
I refer you to this point:
A gold standard leads to deflation whenever an economy using the gold standard grows faster than the gold supply. When an economy grows faster than its money supply, the same money must be used to execute a larger volume of transactions. The only ways of achieving this are for the money to circulate faster or to lower the cost of the transactions. If deflation drives costs down, the real value of each unit of money goes up. This increases the value of cash, and decreases the monetary value of real assets, since the same asset can be purchased with less money. This in turn tends to increase the ratio of debts to assets . For example, assuming interest rates remain unchanged, the monthly cost of a fixed-rate home mortgage stays the same, but the value of the house goes down, and the value of the money required to pay the mortgage goes up. Thus deflation rewards cash savings.
Let me make this clear. This makes property less desirable than cash, which means that people will start hoarding cash (because unlike property, cash will remain constant in value), which removes money from circulation, which decreases the money supply, which makes money more valuable etc etc. Investing money becomes less desirable, in other words, which freezes up the economy.
In addition, people who go into debt are screwed, as the debts increase in value. Do you really want to be saddled with even more debts that you can't repay in a few decades?
Third, as said above, a backed currency's value is dependant on the value of the material used to do the backing. If that value fluctuates, (and as the chart for the value of gold posted by BW shows, it can fluctuate wildly), your currency's value fluctuates. Tell me how that is a good thing.
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Fiat currency is simply a necessity for the economy to grow.
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While we're discussing the economy and growth, how about looking at how many people believe that the economy can and should grow infinitely, regardless of everything and anything. I'm always suprised at how many people believe that it's possible.