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Hosted Projects - Standalone => Diaspora => Topic started by: FraktuRe on November 25, 2010, 12:15:26 am

Title: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: FraktuRe on November 25, 2010, 12:15:26 am
Discuss: Puppies, Dragons and dead William Adama. Go!
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: newman on November 25, 2010, 05:35:52 pm
So, there were two... Didn't see that coming.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: swashmebuckle on November 25, 2010, 09:54:14 pm
After all this time, NOW they're gonna make Adama a cylon?!?  Good Ep.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: FraktuRe on November 25, 2010, 10:13:28 pm
I'm wondering just what they'll do with him. Will he get revived? Cylonified? Is the entire BSG universe just a V-world of caprica? Is Evelyn pregnant with a new William Adama?
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: newman on November 26, 2010, 03:02:30 am
The William Adama who goes on to command Galactica isn't born yet. Willie will have been his deceased half brother. And no, they won't make the old man a cylon. That would suck, badly.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: FraktuRe on November 26, 2010, 03:07:24 am
I'm guessing that's what will happen, though I bet they wanted to explore cylon willie in the second season.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: newman on November 26, 2010, 03:12:23 am
I'm guessing that's what will happen, though I bet they wanted to explore cylon willie in the second season.

I don't think that was ever the plan. Anyway, it's even here, under spoiler tags (the "background" section): http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/William_Adama
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: KewlToyZ on November 27, 2010, 12:11:41 pm
Frak this just keeps getting better!
Now I'm hooked into the series.
What a bunch of idiots to drop the show.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: Snagger on November 27, 2010, 01:42:25 pm
I haven't seen any of the second season half yet, but I wouldn't rule it out at all that Bill Adama is in fact a skin job - there were hints to it during various parts of each season of BSG, and this only seems to further that possibility; how else could he seem to understand their motives and thinking, and how else could he fight Leoben almost on a par? How many parents name a child after a dead sibling?  It would be creepy, disrespectful and many would be superstitious.  I'm not going to make any assumptions about it - hopefully the answer will be given by the end of the Caprica series, but it seems highly plausible and Wikipedia is very often completely wrong.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: Angelus on November 27, 2010, 02:08:58 pm
I haven't seen any of the second season half yet, but I wouldn't rule it out at all that Bill Adama is in fact a skin job - there were hints to it during various parts of each season of BSG, and this only seems to further that possibility; how else could he seem to understand their motives and thinking, and how else could he fight Leoben almost on a par? How many parents name a child after a dead sibling?  It would be creepy, disrespectful and many would be superstitious.  I'm not going to make any assumptions about it - hopefully the answer will be given by the end of the Caprica series, but it seems highly plausible and Wikipedia is very often completely wrong.

In season 4, it's mentioned that number 7, yeah there were originally 13 Cylon models, is
Spoiler:
someone named Daniel, who was badly treated by Cavill, plus the entire line of Daniels was "taken offline". Also, it seems that Daniel was Starbucks father.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: newman on November 27, 2010, 02:14:17 pm
The identities of all Cylons were revealed by the end of BSG. The whole story about them, who did what, who was created by who, etc. All the slots are taken and the old man simply never was a Cylon. It would actually break continuity if they now started claiming that he was.
The reason he was able to fight Leoben was that Leoben was already half dead as the radiation present at the site of Ragnar Anchorage was lethal to Cylons.
The only Cylon we never saw was Daniel. From what we were told, he was a sensitive soul, liked to paint, and was close to Ellen, which is partly why Cavil murdered him and did something to the fluid in which all of his clone bodies were stored, effectively and permanently destroying that model forever. Even if one survived, he couldn't have been the old man. For one, I can't really see him as a sensitive artistic soul or being best chums with Ellen, but more importantly he would have been recognized by the final 5 once their memories kicked in. He wasn't.
Seriously, saying that the whole colonial fleet was run by Cylons (both the admiral and his xo? Come on..) would be ridiculous and introduce quite a lot of inconsistencies.
Furthermore, William Adama's file we see in the BSG episode "Hero" states his mother's name is "Evelyn". Willie Adama's mother's name was Shannon, and Evelyn and Joseph just got together in the last few Caprica episodes. This would suggest they are going to have a kid of their own somewhere down the line and name him William again.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: Mobius on November 28, 2010, 11:26:18 am
The title reminds me of "Hic Sunt Dracones". Interesting.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: General Battuta on November 28, 2010, 11:34:17 am
The title reminds me of "Hic Sunt Dracones". Interesting.

'Here Be Dragons' was a phrase reputedly penned into the unknown areas of maps in medieval times. Common enough to be a cliche.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: Snagger on November 29, 2010, 10:11:00 am
The identities of all Cylons were revealed by the end of BSG. The whole story about them, who did what, who was created by who, etc. All the slots are taken and the old man simply never was a Cylon. It would actually break continuity if they now started claiming that he was.
The reason he was able to fight Leoben was that Leoben was already half dead as the radiation present at the site of Ragnar Anchorage was lethal to Cylons.
The only Cylon we never saw was Daniel. From what we were told, he was a sensitive soul, liked to paint, and was close to Ellen, which is partly why Cavil murdered him and did something to the fluid in which all of his clone bodies were stored, effectively and permanently destroying that model forever. Even if one survived, he couldn't have been the old man. For one, I can't really see him as a sensitive artistic soul or being best chums with Ellen, but more importantly he would have been recognized by the final 5 once their memories kicked in. He wasn't.
Seriously, saying that the whole colonial fleet was run by Cylons (both the admiral and his xo? Come on..) would be ridiculous and introduce quite a lot of inconsistencies.
Furthermore, William Adama's file we see in the BSG episode "Hero" states his mother's name is "Evelyn". Willie Adama's mother's name was Shannon, and Evelyn and Joseph just got together in the last few Caprica episodes. This would suggest they are going to have a kid of their own somewhere down the line and name him William again.
ZOe was a Cylon, and wasn't included in the Cylon history, was she?

The 12 consist of the "orignal 5" from Earth and the 7 they created for the Colonial Centurions in order to broker peace during the Colonial Cylon war.  The fact that work on skin jobs has been done on Caprica prior to the war means there could have been others that the 12 didn't ever know about.  Plus, of course, Daniel, who, despite massive argument to the contrary, seems almost certainly to have been Starbuck's father.  That seems to contradict continuity, in that Cylons aren't supposed to be fertile, but maybe the suggestion is that a human and Cylon together works...  But, then again, how could they have populated Earth with skin jobs if they had always been infertile?  Massive factories with assembly lines of duplicates?  Maybe it's something to do with resurrection - they could have one or the other, but not both?

As for having too many Cylons within the Colonial Fleet, why not?  If Tigh, Tyrol and Boomer could get in (and, later, Anders),  and another could be the President's aide, why not another?   It's not as if the Fleet had an allocated Cylon infiltrator quota...

I didn't know about the mothers' names, but BSG hasn't always been good about continuity - just look at what they did to Lee and Starbuck's characters.  

I said I haven't seen the episodes yet, so I can't make any interpretations.  That said, no-one has seen the ending yet, so no-one can be definitive about this either.  All I'm saying is that the theory is not impossible or even unreasonable.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: newman on November 29, 2010, 10:23:02 am
Even in the show, the old man's mother is listed as "Evelyn". That's in BSG, way before Caprica was even planned. Willie Adama's mother was a woman named Shannon. Joseph just got together with a woman named Evelyn a bit before Willie bought it. Enough of a coincidence for you? You simply can't get around that no matter how much you apparently want the old man to be a skinjob. It doesn't work, and it makes no sense he would never be identified as such even at the end of BSG with the total disclosure they had. If he had been a Cylon it would have made sense for this to play some sort of a role in the BSG show, and that he'd have been recognized in the end when they all get their memory back (the final 5 anyway). Saying he was a Cylon way after the show is over would be crudely grafting it. Saying "oh well maybe they frakked up continuity" doesn't work either, I really doubt they would screw up such a big detail on the most important character's family tree to that universe, on a show that is all about bsg characters and their family trees.
Also, all we know about Zoe is that her "digital footprint" she left on the world was used by her program to assemble a Zoe-like Avatar in a virtual world. There is absolutely no evidence to say that she eventually becomes a Cylon. Yes, maybe she becomes some sort of a base code all Cylons have in the end. But I really doubt there was ever a Zoe model of a Cylon. Yes, she was in the body of a centurion, but that was the avatar running it like you or me would drive a car. In fact, if I was to venture a guess, I'd say it doesn't end well for Zoe in the end - at least not the Zoe that had any ties to humanity left.
At any rate, I'd have to disagree with you completely - as far as I see it it's both impossible and unreasonable for the old man to have been a Cylon. What the hell was the fleet running away from again? All just a bunch of skinjobs in almost every relevant position.
Even battlestar wiki lists Willie as a deceased half-brother to William Adama (the old man) under spoiler tags. If this was mere speculation they'd just write that it was possible and not spoiler tag it - I find it far more likely they have advance info on the show. The guy who runs the place does have contact with the show's producers.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: Snagger on November 29, 2010, 01:41:24 pm
I don't like Wiki as a source for these thngs as it's just posted by fans like us, who can put up all sorts of unverified nonsense.

I haven't seen enough of Caprica to see the new wife, so accept your argument.  I was merely playing devil's advocate and fighting the quashing of a theory that seemed entirely plausible - if Adama had been a Cylon, it would have been form the Colonies, not Earth (5) or Earth derived (7), so there's no reason to assume that he would have "remembered" at the same time as the others, and if he had been raised as human, might not even consciously be aware of it himself, though it could have explained his unconscious understanding of the enemy.

My point about Zoe is not whether or not she became a skin job, but that none of her story and the fact that the first functioning Cylon was mentally human seems to have been "recorded" in Cylon history.  As the first functioning Cylon, Zoe should have some sort of messianic importance to this extremely religious robot race, but she's never mentioned.  So, if Cylons aren't aware of their own initial development,as well one would expect (why would you programme them with unnecessary information?), it follows that they would be unaware of other parallel developments, like other Cylon-like projects.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: The E on November 29, 2010, 01:51:10 pm
Recorded != mentioned. There's quite a bit of a gap between Caprica's timeframe, and the earliest nuBSG canon (CW1 flashbacks from Razor). The cylons we meet in BSG never have reasons to discuss the origins of the cylons in their robot form.

There's nothing in Caprica's continuity that would clash with nuBSG's, and the fact that Bill Adama is NOT a cylon is a very good thing indeed.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: Snagger on November 30, 2010, 02:38:13 pm

There's nothing in Caprica's continuity that would clash with nuBSG's, and the fact that Bill Adama is NOT a cylon is a very good thing indeed.
I certainly agree with that - the whole "God did it" explanation was bad enough - I'd not like it if Adama did turn out to be a toaster, even if it would otherwise have "fit", it would have spoilt the story.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: KewlToyZ on November 30, 2010, 05:39:29 pm
I can't help but wonder if Zoe herself takes a different name simply because she has those memories and character but she is not the one the Capricans claim to be a terrorist guilty of killing everyone on the train. She is simply a new evolution of a victim of circumstance. Destined to be the first skin job? Only one episode left to shed any light on it and I doubt that is enough to show that evolution. Will there be a season 2?
The show has evolved into a viable product, but poor management has made it difficult for it to evolve.

Bill can't be a skin job. It simply doesnt add anything to the story, it detracts from it and his depth of character completely.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: karajorma on November 30, 2010, 09:10:40 pm
I can buy Bill being a skinjob. But only if he doesn't know.

It's quite possible that they could have brought him back as a skinjob but not told him. If he knew it makes little sense, especially the bit where he falls apart on learning that Tigh is a skinjob. That simply wouldn't have happened if he knew he was a Cylon.

Of course the more logical answer is that he simply is the second William Adama.


And now I'm going to go away and hope that the cancellation of Caprica is just a PR stunt to persuade people to come back and watch it. :p
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 30, 2010, 11:39:45 pm
The William Adama who goes on to command Galactica isn't born yet. Willie will have been his deceased half brother. And no, they won't make the old man a cylon. That would suck, badly.

Considering what they did with The Plan, I'm not sure "that would suck badly" is an argument these people understand or recognize.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: KewlToyZ on December 01, 2010, 03:57:33 pm
"The Plan" sucked I have to agree on that one.
It seemed like an intellectual insult to the die hard fans who would buy it in the first place.
All of these so called network execs talking about demographics and forget key issues like oh, i don't know...
A plot, a storyline, maintaining an audience, gendre........

It makes us all want to suggest they are to blame for people dumping cable which in pretty much every aspect so far is true.
It's like watching the death of MTV and the rise of YouTube.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: Angelus on December 01, 2010, 04:06:02 pm
"The Plan" sucked I have to agree on that one.
It seemed like an intellectual insult to the die hard fans who would buy it in the first place.
All of these so called network execs talking about demographics and forget key issues like oh, i don't know...
A plot, a storyline, maintaining an audience, gendre........

It makes us all want to suggest they are to blame for people dumping cable which in pretty much every aspect so far is true.
It's like watching the death of MTV and the rise of YouTube.



Yeah, the plan wasn't that good.
I consider the policy of these execs an insult. And this one is punishable by death. In an airlock. While listening to the elevator music.


...and MTV is dead? I haven't noticed it, 'cause i was mostly watching...youtube. Oh no, i killed MTV...
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: SpardaSon21 on December 01, 2010, 06:15:31 pm
Internet video killed the TV star. :P
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: newman on December 01, 2010, 06:20:11 pm
I was right, and the old man was never a Cylon. Good thing too, that would have sucked.

Spoiler:
In Caprica's last episode they even show William Adama 2.0 and tell him he was named after his (half) brother.
Title: Re: Caprica 1x17 "Here be Dragons" [SPOILERS]
Post by: Snagger on December 02, 2010, 04:31:08 am
I was right, and the old man was never a Cylon. Good thing too, that would have sucked.

Spoiler:
In Caprica's last episode they even show William Adama 2.0 and tell him he was named after his (half) brother.
Fair enough, then, though I had accepted the point when the mothers' names were brought up - I was merely making the point that other than that, it would have fit if they chose to go that way.