Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: CommanderDJ on December 01, 2010, 04:35:20 am
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Basically what the title says. How feasible is it in the FSverse that a vessel could choose to stay in subspace during a jump, like beyond the time required to reach its destination? Whether intra or intersystem isn't particularly important to me, feel free to discuss both!
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I guess that intra system jumps are (almost) instant and are generated by the subspace drive, but as i see it, the intersystem nodes are generated naturally or via knossos, either way, external force, and the drive is only required to enter. That way and adding that traversing through intersystem node takes more time, i think that a ship should be able to stop or change course while in the intersystem corridor. Many campaigns also work with that, like Derelict, which has a lucifer class and few science vessels stationed there.
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In my understanding canon facts seems to hint that subspace forms a tunnel between two points. Deviating from course in a one-way tunnel is not possible.
Now, different question is whether you can deliberately slow down the speed at which you travel between the two points, or speed it up even more. I would imagine it is possible. Third question is whether you're actually able to stop traveling between the two points and whether there is a limit how long the tunnel remains stable.
I think stability of subspace tunnel depends on how advanced your subspace technology is, more advanced drives can keep the tunnel more stable and thus at will remain there longer. This was proven by Sathanae in FS2 campaign when one of them was able to stabilize a node. But I doubt you could still change your course during transition.
Why? If changing course during subspace transit would be possible, then there would be much less need for subspace node blockades. Blockade runners could change their course just enough to avoid brunt of the blockade or change course elsewhere entirely. Such tactics were never used in FS1 or FS2 campaigns.
At least such is the case with inetersystem jumps and nodes. If we want an example of intrasystem jump, then one can be found right in first mission of FS2 campaign. The Belisarius. The Command hinted that it was possible to determine where it would exit from subspace. This wouldn't be anywhere reliable if it was possible to change course during subspace transition. During engagements military ships would most certainly use this to their advantage if changing course was possible.
The bottom line is, nothing in the canon campaigns supports the theory that it would be possible to change course during subspace transition, but everything seems to hint to exactly to opposite.
I would leave traveling speed a question of how advanced tech you use. The better tech, the more control you have over it. But you still can't turn around or break through the walls that is subspace tunnel.
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I think stability of subspace tunnel depends on how advanced your subspace technology is, more advanced drives can keep the tunnel more stable and thus at will remain there longer. This was proven by Sathanae in FS2 campaign when one of them was able to stabilize a node.
Not quite what canon says.
Command suspects that the node was stabilized because the Knossos was active for so long.
But wether that suspicion or your theory is the correct one, we can't really tell for sure. Considering the Shivans advanced technology, both theories seem credible.
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But I doubt you could still change your course during transition.
Why? If changing course during subspace transit would be possible, then there would be much less need for subspace node blockades. Blockade runners could change their course just enough to avoid brunt of the blockade or change course elsewhere entirely. Such tactics were never used in FS1 or FS2 campaigns.
I agree on that, but what you mean (i think) is like you entered a node and instead of altair popped out in laramis. I meant to enter the delta serpentis-sol node from Sol and half the way there, you recieve intel that the enemy is waiting on you, so you turn round and run back to Sol. That should be possible in my opinion in the intersystem jump, 'cuz as i said, the tunnel is there no matter what, it exists even empty, so i doubt there is some kind of "drift" that will keep dragging you to your original course.
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The way the subspace tunnel looked back in FS1 always got me the impression of being pulled along. Maybe that was just to give a sense of movement, when the Lucifer really only sat there, but I still think there is a tremendous torrent, for lack of better term, in the tunnel, pulling you along.
With the low speeds of capships, they could never pull back, once inside, though a fighter might pull that kind of manouver.
But that is just my opinion based on the original looks of subspace tunnels, mind you, not any official fact.
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Then this same drift would prevent you from going the other way, which can not be because cannonicaly, both way travel is possible :P
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Yes, travel both ways is possible from one end of the tunnel between nodes to the other, but it has never been stated that a ship in subspace has turned around and gone back to the node it entered from. Thus this drift is plausible, albeit completely un-canon.
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I seems to me that ships in subspace, those we've seen in canon anyway, couldn't change course when facing a blockade either way...since they didn't know it was there in the first place.
The Belasarius certanly didn't know the Psamtik was waiting for it. And even if one could change course, I doubt it would go easy OR fast. We're talking about n-space naviagtion here, there's loads and loads of calculations and safety protocols...It wouldn't surprise me if it took quite long to plot a jump.
Also, the power required for a jump. Assuming jumping creates a tunnel, then it also creates the exit point..and the drives juice is spent. We see that ships after completing the jump have to re-charge their drives, which can take minutes. So it appears re-charge during transit is impossible, hence also using the drive again to change the exit point.
Now, if a ship had more juice or a reserve jump drive, maybe it could alter it's exit point. But I doubt it.
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Then this same drift would prevent you from going the other way, which can not be because cannonicaly, both way travel is possible :P
Remember that the Bastions fighters could only get into the same tunnel as the Lucifer because they learned that trick from the knowledge of the ancients!
Subspace isn't simply a tunnel were all ships traveling between those jumpnodes pass each other.
Unless you jump together in a group or somehow "break into" the tunnel of another ship, like it was done with the Lucifer (or someone else does it to you), you are always alone and will never encounter anyone else in subspace tunnels. That leads me to believe that you don't use an existing tunnel, but create your own tunnel when jumping.
And that tunnel might very well have it's own torrent depending on the side it was opened from.
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I wonder what would happen if you engaged a secondary drive while within subspace. It would probably require a *powerful* sedative to work though.
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Sounds like the "bonehead manouver" from Babylon 5. There is creates a massive explosion.
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There's no evidence from canon that once you've committed to a jump you can alter destination or time spent in subspace. GTVA subspace tracking technology in FS2 seems to be perfectly accurate in obtaining a destination for an intrasystem jump merely by observing the starting point; if it were possible to alter destination mid-jump, that probably would not be the case. Similarly, the tech room gives very definitive (and short) times for intrasystem jumps and does not qualify its statements of them.
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Question, is it possible to receive transmisions originating in normal space while in subspace?
I can't seem to recall any transmition from command in the last mission of FS1 that can back this up.
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Maybe the briefing (red alert)? Wasn't Alpha 1 already in subspace when he received that transmission?
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I can't tell for sure right now, but could be a possible response to my enquire.
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Yep, Command keeps transmitting to you. They give you the countdown and yell at you to hurry up and such.
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Considering that they can send ships into the Lucifers subspace tunnel, it makes sense that they can also send signals in. Wether the pilots can answer to those signals is another question.
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Ok then, communication while in subspace corridors is plausible, thanks :D
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There's no evidence from canon that once you've committed to a jump you can alter destination or time spent in subspace. GTVA subspace tracking technology in FS2 seems to be perfectly accurate in obtaining a destination for an intrasystem jump merely by observing the starting point; if it were possible to alter destination mid-jump, that probably would not be the case.
Even if there is a way to alter ones destination, the question is if the GTVA knows how to do it? After all, they had no knowledge of subspace tracking either. And also what requirements have to be met to do it. If a ship has to have two subspace drives and extra reactors to do it, then it may simply be too expensive.
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Well the Lucifer mission shows that you can alter speed otherwise you would never catch it. As travel is not instantaneous when using nodes the question is moving between nodes based on distance or time. If distance then speeding up/slowing down would affect when you arrive. Heck while the tunnel is not big enough for caps to turn in it is for fighters and smaller ships so it might even be possible to exit the same node you entered if you can make the turn.
As for in system jumps I don't think they are anywhere near instantaneous. If they were reinforcements wouldn't take so long to get to battles. Every ship in a system with working jump engines could instantly be in the battle. This is shown on server occasions where you have to hold ground until relieved by a cap and other wings. This could also be said to show that waiting in subspace is possible. How else could support ships and bombers arrive seconds after being called? Also support ships always arrive near the battle no matter where it started and has moved. This could be an indication of the ability to adjust course as well.
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Or maybe the support ships were parked nearby and already had pre-calculated jump coordiantes and charged up drives.
Maybe it takes time to calculate the jumpvector and charge up the drive and the bigger the ship, the longer it takes.
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If ships could turn inside a subspace tunnel, why didn't the fighters attacking the Lucifer turn around and head back? :confused:
Navigating through big chunks of exploding superdestroyer doesn't sound very safe to me.
In system jumps not instantaneous sounds about right... maybe in system jumps are just really fast.
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If ships could turn inside a subspace tunnel, why didn't the fighters attacking the Lucifer turn around and head back? :confused:
Maybe because they didn't want to try out what happens if you stay inside a collapsing subspace-tunnel? Or the exploding Lucifer just pulled them out with it and they used the momentum to get away fast as it exploded.
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Did they even know the node is going to say bye bye? To my knowledge that was the first cannon collapse of a jump node. Not sure how much we can count the talania nodes, but i think that there is nothing else canon than what's in the Levi tech description.
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I was ahead of the Lucifer when I killed it.
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Well the Lucifer mission shows that you can alter speed otherwise you would never catch it.
No it doesn't. You all exit from the Lucifer's tunnel at the same time, including the Lucifer. It shows you can alter your subjective speed inside the tunnel, but subspace is an interdimensional weirdness and that proves nothing about your speed of arrival in real space on the other side. You could be 200km ahead of the Lucifer when it dies if you like and the cutscene will still show you exiting subspace with the Lucifer. The Lucifer's jump corridor, the Lucifer set the pace.
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On the other hand the strikecraft were supposed to swarm around the Lucifer in the mission and only be able to destroy it in the last moments before she made the jump back into normal space (otherwise she wouldn't have blown up while still half in subspace), so it's only logicall that they would come out at the same time.
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Or maybe the support ships were parked nearby and already had pre-calculated jump coordiantes and charged up drives.
Maybe it takes time to calculate the jumpvector and charge up the drive and the bigger the ship, the longer it takes.
Unlikely. They always warp in near the first vessel that asks for a re-arm. This could be any ship in the battlefield at any time in the game.
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Sure, but on the scale of a whole solar system that distance is a very minor adjustement.
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On the other hand the strikecraft were supposed to swarm around the Lucifer in the mission and only be able to destroy it in the last moments before she made the jump back into normal space (otherwise she wouldn't have blown up while still half in subspace), so it's only logicall that they would come out at the same time.
Which isn't relevant to my point. Both what you can do in the mission and the Endgame win cutscene are canonical. :P
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What? You can also fail the mission. That's no canonical. You can also let all your wingmen die, despite seeing them reincarnated for the cutscene.
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I always assumed that in-system jumps take at least 30 seconds.
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What? You can also fail the mission. That's no canonical. You can also let all your wingmen die, despite seeing them reincarnated for the cutscene.
Good Luck is largely self-playing on lower difficulties, thus Alpha 1 being way the hell in front of or behind the Lucifer could be completely accurate to the end cutscene nonetheless.
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I wonder what would happen if you engaged a secondary drive while within subspace. It would probably require a *powerful* sedative to work though.
well played sir. :yes: