Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: CommanderDJ on December 06, 2010, 03:55:45 am
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Hey,
I know that we don't have any canon info on this, so I thought I'd get the community's opinion on it: The way I see it, jump nodes in space are sort of like borders between countries. So is it likely that there would be GTVA checkpoints or some sort of border security at jump nodes? All the jump nodes we've seen have been actual combat zones, so yeah. I dunno. Thoughts?
CommanderDJ
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I certainly think it's plausible. Having a Fenris or something with a wing of fighters that run a patrol around the node, with the former having its beams pointed at the node and doing checks is what I'd imagine.
I mean, it's just silly to leave them unprotected and unobserved. Although, they may even have some kind of police force that does it for them.
/me recalls the intro to G-Police.
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Well, the GTC Vigilant was destroyed while patrolling the Gamma Draconnis jump node, iirc, so yeah, it would make sense.
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It would depend on the era.
Late Reconstruction and other generally peaceful times you could easily justify a couple of fighter wings buzzing round performing spot checks. the armament of most freighters we have seen is light enough to the point that a few fighters are enough to disable anything of interest that is non compliant. in your analogy it would be similar to the European Union.
Early - Mid reconstruction era and similar when the Terran territory's are fragmented then you analogy holds a lot truer and border checkpoints probably look a lot like the blockades we see in the game
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Prepare for in-depth:
Node checkpoints are a vital strategic, tactical, and economic necessity for the GTVA. Nodes are hubs of traffic, and chokepoints to any incursion.
On the strategic scale, nodes are what determine where the lines on the map are drawn. They are the single most vital form of transportation for fleets on both the attack and defensive. Take the node, cut the lines of reinforcement and redeployment.
Tactically, they are massive liabilities. Any defending force has to keep a tight watch on them in times of war, or be jumped and summarily destroyed by a transiting larger enemy fleet. They also anchor any picket in place, making them VERY easy targets for fighter and bomber wings. Bait them, stay just out of engagement range, distract them while heavier elements move up, or pull them out of position and cut their retreat. Even with subspace, it's still possible to do that within limited volumes.
Economically, they are trade, full stop. The only way goods travel from one system to another, and also the only way communications and people transit as well. Cut it, and you stem the lifeblood of trade, cut the spread of news, and, once again, plug the redeployment lines.
Truth be told, I'm hugely surprised any given (important) node isn't staffed with at least an installation, a few dozen sentry guns (and Mjolnirs) and at LEAST a pair of Cruisers, if not a permanent Corvette with fighter escort. They're just too damned important to leave undefended.
Plus, I bet pirates would absolutely LOVE to jump merchants and freighters that have just emerged from an intersystem jump. Makes a nodal escort and defense even more of an obvious solution.
You guys need to stop thinking of these things like borders that span hundreds of miles like on Earth and instead like thin, difficult to defend, enormously valuable bridges that link together tiny, insignificant islands in the vast cosmos. They are vital and must be defended. Full stop.
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And yet, we don't see that in canon. Realistically, you're bang on, but from what we've seen as fact... I dunno. There just aren't enough installations and such at nodes to make this likely. I think headdie might be onto something (that it depends on the era).
Lesse...
FS1 - no real reason to put installations near nodes, as the front line systems woud have been semi fluid during the war, taking and losing a system every now and then. Plus, a large installation away from a node gives you a fallback position if the node is taken, from which to plan a counterattack or retreat. What's odd is the lack of stationary infrastructure - perhaps the GTA/PVN decided it was more efficient to use cruisers to guard the nodes, which could jump away when damaged, be repaired, and then reused, rather than spending the equivalent amount of money on something that was stuck at the node?
FS2 - Stable interstellar society, no real enemy threat except the shivans (at least, after the formation of the GTVA and before the NTF). Pirates also have never been seen canonically to attack active, moving ships, only to try and steal cargo from depots (Silent Threat). Custons and whatnot may be carried out by individual planetary governments. Stations may not have been built at the nodes due to the Shivan issue, i.e. their fascination with nodes rather than planets would make a station located at a node much more vulnerable than one located in orbit around an inhabited planet.
Given what we have seen in canon, I suspect that the majority of the GTVA fleet's job in peacetime is likely node guarding (and in wartime I suspect as well - as you say, they're ridiculously important), even if it's just a few fighter wings, but that infrastructure, for whatever reason, is just not practical.
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There are other things to consider as well. jump nodes arn't the only priority for security forces, there are planets, installations (Arcadias though thick skinned are pathetically armed), transit routes, asteroid belts have been shown to be problematic to sensors so you have to patrol them along with dust clouds etc.
Also we don't know the size of a "fleet" in FS and if a fleet is just a few destroyers double that corvettes and quadruple that cruisers then that is pretty small to cover a star system even with jump drive. especially when you take into account down time for training, maintenance and ceremonial duty.
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@Black Wolf: Read the OP and consider one point: The only nodes we ever see are in combat zones. In that light, most infrastructure would already be evacuated and/or destroyed, and all escorts would be deployed for combat duty.
@Headdie: You're missing the point. You don't need to patrol those areas. They only places of interest to anything you really want to defend are the node and the planet. Intra-system drives work to get you from planet to node and vice-versa. An installation in the middle of nowhere only costs money and helps no-one any more than an installation in a more financially sane place. There is very little of interest in a system except the planet and nodes (and possibly resources), so a fleet doesn't really have to expend that much power on force projection within a system.
Also remember that the only bad guys in the system HAVE to come through nodes in a conventional war, and that pirates aren't enough to threaten anything remotely approaching a navy (along with the fact they can't support it and commit financial suicide every time they try).
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@Black Wolf: Read the OP and consider one point: The only nodes we ever see are in combat zones. In that light, most infrastructure would already be evacuated and/or destroyed, and all escorts would be deployed for combat duty.
hence why in peace time there is more to do with the same resources (possibly fewer if there is mandatory service in times of war) so you cant run heavy defences at the node site.
@Headdie: You're missing the point. You don't need to patrol those areas. They only places of interest to anything you really want to defend are the node and the planet. Intra-system drives work to get you from planet to node and vice-versa. An installation in the middle of nowhere only costs money and helps no-one any more than an installation in a more financially sane place. There is very little of interest in a system except the planet and nodes (and possibly resources), so a fleet doesn't really have to expend that much power on force projection within a system.
So all threats are external?
Also remember that the only bad guys in the system HAVE to come through nodes in a conventional war, and that pirates aren't enough to threaten anything remotely approaching a navy (along with the fact they can't support it and commit financial suicide every time they try).
So pirates and/or criminal gangs always move in from outside? If you do a little research you will find that most criminal activity in any given area originates in that area, I'm sorry but you need to patrol all these places to minimise the opportunity's for criminal elements to operate. I get from your posts the sense that you are only thinking about nations at war when there is more than that to consider when thinking about security.
Also as Kings Gambit and Sicilian Defence and the following mission at the Knossos shows in FS during times of war even heavy blockading is not always successful so you need forces able to respond away from the node to mop up these escapees.
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hence why in peace time there is more to do with the same resources (possibly fewer if there is mandatory service in times of war) so you cant run heavy defences at the node site.
Backwards. In peace-time, you patrol what's cheaper. That's the node, which offers tangible benefits to every quarter. That dust cloud 150 million klicks away? Who gives a ****?
So all threats are external?
All threats worth deploying naval assets of any kind are. Pirates aren't worth it, and won't get into a shooting match anyway because any damage they take comes out of their pockets. Besides, if you keep the trade routes clear, namely the node and the planet, which are going to be quite nearly the only reason trade occurs at all, you won't have problems with pirates. If the problem is a rebellion, the routine patrols are of slightly lesser importance. If the problem is that your system is contested, then you're going to have a nice picket at the node to keep any enemy ships from slipping deeper behind the lines.
I'm thinking in terms of warring states because anything else is handled by police forces, not the naval presence you'll find at nodes. And, once again, Pirates aren't that big of a deal because, as stated, they don't fight. If they do, they lose money, and they're in it for the money. Privateers fight, and those will be entering the system from outside to prey on merchant shipping. Be careful not to confuse the two.
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hence why in peace time there is more to do with the same resources (possibly fewer if there is mandatory service in times of war) so you cant run heavy defences at the node site.
Backwards. In peace-time, you patrol what's cheaper. That's the node, which offers tangible benefits to every quarter. That dust cloud 150 million klicks away? Who gives a ****?
When that dust could is being used as a staging point for pirates attacking civilian trade it is and with jump drives you cant know for certain where the bad guys are coming from.
So all threats are external?
All threats worth deploying naval assets of any kind are. Pirates aren't worth it, and won't get into a shooting match anyway because any damage they take comes out of their pockets. Besides, if you keep the trade routes clear, namely the node and the planet, which are going to be quite nearly the only reason trade occurs at all, you won't have problems with pirates. If the problem is a rebellion, the routine patrols are of slightly lesser importance. If the problem is that your system is contested, then you're going to have a nice picket at the node to keep any enemy ships from slipping deeper behind the lines.
I'm thinking in terms of warring states because anything else is handled by police forces, not the naval presence you'll find at nodes. And, once again, Pirates aren't that big of a deal because, as stated, they don't fight. If they do, they lose money, and they're in it for the money. Privateers fight, and those will be entering the system from outside to prey on merchant shipping. Be careful not to confuse the two.
Fixed the quote. --Jeff Vader
1. You are assuming that there is a traditional distinction between civilian and military security and that there is no overlap. It could easily be a case of civilian “police” investigate crime and the military handle day to day security. Also with Vasudans being involved they probably have a different view to how security operates and will affect how the GTVA sees security.
2. Navies do get involved in Piracy, Somalia comes to mind recently and many coastguards and costal patrols are operated by the nations navy, the UK and USA come immediately to mind
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You're still ignoring the "Why the hell are civvie transports in the boonies anyway?" and the "Why are pirates attacking things that can hurt them?" part of my posts. Namely, the more important aspects at the moment.
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I'm actually more suprised at how seemingly unguarded the FS2 nodes appear to be...
I'd say some kind of station with a few fighters stationed on it, checking a node on a daily basis seems reasonable to me.
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You're still ignoring the "Why the hell are civvie transports in the boonies anyway?"
Surrender, Belisarius! (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Briefing_texts_(FS2)#Surrender.2C_Belisarius.21) not all civilian shipping is jump capable.
and the "Why are pirates attacking things that can hurt them?" part of my posts. Namely, the more important aspects at the moment.
Set a AI uly ordered to disable and disarm a freighter or transport and tell me which wins? aside from the odd Vasudan and the shivans FS civi ships are so poorly armed its laughable, the equivalent of having a couple of the crew armed with AKs against a group of pirates.
Also another aspect is public image. when you see a tank parked guarding a road junction with 8 watchful squaddies what do you think? It's a very unnerving sight and the same is possibly true in FS for example:
Where the Orion is the symbol of Terran power, the Arcadia is the shining beacon of stability.
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Arcadia#FS1_Tech_Room_Description
The distinction between the Arcadia and Orion would suggest to me that there is the same public perception of warships that we have of tanks.
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Surrender, Belisarius! not all civilian shipping is jump capable.
Exactly. Why the hell is it in the boonies? If it doesn't have jump drives, it shouldn't be more than a few hundred klicks from an installation or other support. At the speeds ships travel in FreeSpace, they will get nowhere very, very quickly if they try to go somewhere else. You'll also note that's while the system is being contested.
Set a AI uly ordered to disable and disarm a freighter or transport and tell me which wins?
Bring out a single escort fighter provided by the local law enforcement or even the corporate owner of the transports or freighters and watch the enormous investment go down the drain. Pirates will not attack anything capable of hurting them unless they aren't actual pirates, i.e. they're not in it for the money.
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Surrender, Belisarius! not all civilian shipping is jump capable.
Exactly. Why the hell is it in the boonies? If it doesn't have jump drives, it shouldn't be more than a few hundred klicks from an installation or other support. At the speeds ships travel in FreeSpace, they will get nowhere very, very quickly if they try to go somewhere else. You'll also note that's while the system is being contested.
I dont know, people are stupid sometimes. Also we dont know if there are natural effects that cause havoc for jump drives
Set a AI uly ordered to disable and disarm a freighter or transport and tell me which wins?
Bring out a single escort fighter provided by the local law enforcement or even the corporate owner of the transports or freighters and watch the enormous investment go down the drain. Pirates will not attack anything capable of hurting them unless they aren't actual pirates, i.e. they're not in it for the money.
we don't know if civilian ownership of combat craft is legal. And they will attack if they think the prize is worth the risk otherwise they wouldn't do it in the first place. Also what is the response time of law enforcement, we know from Surrender, Belisarius! that there is a transit time for in system jumps there is also the time taken to detect the incident then dispatch and scramble the responding craft.
Look I'm not saying the Node is unimportant and I agree that it is strategically important as a natural choke point but there is more than the node to consider when deploying security assets through the system, even in a nations at war scenario you haven't even touched the necessity to have protecting forces at major installations and planets ready for when a surprise attack bursts through your heavily blockaded node and the reserves you need to keep back to replace damaged and lost assets
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I like to think nodes aren't guarded by installations (or giant spheres of metal) because, over weeks or months, they tend to skip around a bit in patterns not totally dictated by orbital mechanics. Orbiting defenses would get left behind without constant adjustment.
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@Black Wolf: Read the OP and consider one point: The only nodes we ever see are in combat zones. In that light, most infrastructure would already be evacuated and/or destroyed, and all escorts would be deployed for combat duty.
And yet there's no evidence for it ever, as far as I can recall. I'll admit, there's a chance that I've forgotten some canon examples of nodes and installations being next to each other, but it's definitely not the norm. Even in combat zones, it's bloody hard to move an installation, so they're either always destroyed, or they were never there. It seems like the second is more likely, to me. It's not neccesarily logical, but it's closer to the apparent canon.
Logically, nodes are guarded, but it seems not as zealously as they perhaps should be.
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Yeah, permanent installations only make sense when you can anchorthem near the node, if they are on Lagrange points for example. If the node doesn't stay in such a convenient place, dragging an installation around is more trouble than it's worth. Far easier to just place a Destroyer there, but even then, you're still looking at a lot of fuel consumption.
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Is there any evidence that nodes move around?
Besides, I dont see why a installation can't have a few manouvering thrusters to stay with the node (if for whatever reason it decides to move). Seems a lot more practical than keeping a whole destroyer with it.
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Nope, the node moving thing is just fanon.
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Is there any evidence that nodes move around?
Besides, I dont see why a installation can't have a few manouvering thrusters to stay with the node (if for whatever reason it decides to move). Seems a lot more practical than keeping a whole destroyer with it.
No evidence whatsoever. But if the node's position fluctuates with the system's configuration, it might skip around by thousands or tens of thousands of kilometers (weeks? days? years? who knows!), rendering stationkeeping thrusters tricky.
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Leviathan cruisers are used to guard critical installations, such as permanent jump nodes, deep-space factories, and gas-mining operations....
Indicating there's another kind?
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I believe the techroom entry on subspace indicated that some jump nodes were unstable.
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I would assume there is at least SOME fluctuation of the nodes since everything in the universe moves around.
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I would assume there is at least SOME fluctuation of the nodes since everything in the universe moves around.
Right. By nature the nodes must either be in orbit, or, more likely, be located at mathematically determined points based on the system's configuration.
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I would assume there is at least SOME fluctuation of the nodes since everything in the universe moves around.
Right. By nature the nodes must either be in orbit, or, more likely, be located at mathematically determined points based on the system's configuration.
I would also assume that the link to the other system will have some effect as well.
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I would assume there is at least SOME fluctuation of the nodes since everything in the universe moves around.
Right. By nature the nodes must either be in orbit, or, more likely, be located at mathematically determined points based on the system's configuration.
I would also assume that the link to the other system will have some effect as well.
Maybe, yeah. It's possible, but given that the node links aren't reaaaaally sorted by distance...it seems turbulent or chaotic.
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Since nodes are, perforce, the only place in a system where anyone ever has to go, that they would be patrolled to control and protect shipping is simply a matter of course. A permanent installation may or may not be present, but a cruiser and escorts (with everything else in the system on speeddial) is likely. At the minimum a two-wing fighter presence.
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I'd buy two wings if you're out in the boonies, but if you're in, say, Capella, I would put big money on Corvette or Destroyer presence at all times. The simple reason being that there is literally nothing of greater strategic value in any system beyond that jump node except for perhaps shipyards, and then only for select systems.
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I'd put a corvette on the last-but-one explored systems node, and send patrols to the last explored system. Why? The Vigilant was in the "last" explores system (meaning the one we didn't map yet, like is we didn't know how many nodes and where lead out of it) and it got shock-jumped by shivns when they arrived, because we had no intel on what are they doing beyong Gamma Draconis. If the vigilat was at the Capella side of cap-GD node and only fighter patrols were at GD, the vigilant would have recieved a message from this patrol that shivans are coming and prepare for the attack, like calling bombers for support. I am fairly confident that the internal nodes are not as much in need of guard in a peace time, because the fleets in the system patrol around all possible targets, and pirates hardly ever attack through the node into another system. In the war time, hwever, guard all nodes.
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I'd buy two wings if you're out in the boonies, but if you're in, say, Capella, I would put big money on Corvette or Destroyer presence at all times. The simple reason being that there is literally nothing of greater strategic value in any system beyond that jump node except for perhaps shipyards, and then only for select systems.
The problem with that is most of the core systems have 3 jump nodes so that's 2/3 corvettes per system and i count 11 that I would consider a core system, one of which has 4 nodes so that's 34 corvettes and or destroyers tied up on node duty before you consider Installations / planets / ship yards that warrant protection and patrols into minor systems like Gamma Draconis
(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/2a42e237352e35823bed78971ad693fe1dd338ce4a8bd71be664db2694b507e92g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=utyje09m8ywj7ds&thumb=5)
Delta Serpentis - formally GTA capital post sol node collapse so probably has a significant population as judging by the accepted node map would have been the first colonised system. also probably has a moral component to its importance with it being the launch system for the attack against the Lucifer and being the site of the old subspace node to sol.
Beta Aquilae - capital of GTVA space
Sirius - connection point for several jump corridors
Alpha Centauri - the jump nodes are close together allowing for rapid transit. also makes the system very hard to defend if attacked from more than 1 direction
Deneb - indications are that the system is quite heavily populated
Vasuda - Vasudan home system and could still be heavily populated
Antares - 4 jump nodes in and out of the system including Vasuda and Beta Aquilae
Vega - Home of the 4th fleet and site of a lab conducting meson research, which suggests the system might be heavily populated.
Capella - Known to be heavily populated and one of only two transit routes to the fringes of GTVA space
Regulus - one of only two transit routes to the fringes of GTVA space
Polaris - known to have a shipyard and presumably well populated
also but non core I would want to heavily defend Ross 128 at least until I know where the first Shivan fleet came from
I'd put a corvette on the last-but-one explored systems node, and send patrols to the last explored system. Why? The Vigilant was in the "last" explores system (meaning the one we didn't map yet, like is we didn't know how many nodes and where lead out of it) and it got shock-jumped by shivns when they arrived, because we had no intel on what are they doing beyong Gamma Draconis. If the vigilat was at the Capella side of cap-GD node and only fighter patrols were at GD, the vigilant would have recieved a message from this patrol that shivans are coming and prepare for the attack, like calling bombers for support. I am fairly confident that the internal nodes are not as much in need of guard in a peace time, because the fleets in the system patrol around all possible targets, and pirates hardly ever attack through the node into another system. In the war time, hwever, guard all nodes.
The Vigilant was jumped in a system that had been scientifically explored and the command brief suggested though didnt say that the science mission should have detected any active nodes. the nebula node came to be because Bosh sent the Trinity to activate the Knossos and scout it out
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The problem with that is most of the core systems have 3 jump nodes so that's 2/3 corvettes per system and i count 11 that I would consider a core system, one of which has 4 nodes so that's 34 corvettes and or destroyers tied up on node duty before you consider Installations / planets / ship yards that warrant protection and patrols into minor systems like Gamma Draconis
That's only a problem if you don't have enough. We have no canon figures on fleet size. As such, the issue is immaterial. Lacking canon numbers, seems logical to assume the GTVA has enough ships to protect itself, no?
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The problem with that is most of the core systems have 3 jump nodes so that's 2/3 corvettes per system and i count 11 that I would consider a core system, one of which has 4 nodes so that's 34 corvettes and or destroyers tied up on node duty before you consider Installations / planets / ship yards that warrant protection and patrols into minor systems like Gamma Draconis
That's only a problem if you don't have enough. We have no canon figures on fleet size. As such, the issue is immaterial. Lacking canon numbers, seems logical to assume the GTVA has enough ships to protect itself, no?
that's true about not having info about the numbers but it is reasonable to assume corvettes are in short supply with it taking Security council authority to deploy 2 in The Great Hunt (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Briefing_texts_(FS2)#The_Great_Hunt)
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All that says is "With recent victories on the civil war front, command has deemed fit to deploy two Deimos class corvettes" for RECON missions. Still no numbers, and if anything evidence for the "they have more than enough" line than the "they're strapped for chassis" argument.
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All that says is "With recent victories on the civil war front, command has deemed fit to deploy two Deimos class corvettes" for RECON missions. Still no numbers, and if anything evidence for the "they have more than enough" line than the "they're strapped for chassis" argument.
can we have it quoted properly please. "With recent victories on the civil war front, the GTVA Security Council has authorized the deployment of two Deimos-class corvettes" the GTVA security council is a little higher than fleet command and the fact that it takes government level authority to change the deployment of these this ships says to me these are not freely available to be moved about as the fleet admiral pleases, kind of hints at shortages to me.
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All ship redeployments go through GTVA Security Council. It's what they do. They are basically BuShips, BuWeps, BuPers, and BuInt all in one. It's nothing special to say that the Security Council authorized their deployment as anything more than a lead in to the briefing.
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All ship redeployments go through GTVA Security Council. It's what they do. They are basically BuShips, BuWeps, BuPers, and BuInt all in one. It's nothing special to say that the Security Council authorized their deployment as anything more than a lead in to the briefing.
what
cite
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I'm gonna say "Special Circumstance" there. The nebula mission was as close as the GTVA in the games got to doing a strict exploratory mission, and given that it involved travel through a Knossos, I would assume the Sec Council being quite a bit more involved in the affair than usual.
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I must admit I had the security council pegged as being similar to the American Joint chiefs of Staff judging from the tech room brakedown so more policy orientated rather than plan on the ground. The_E's explanation sounds better but if the Corvettes were part of the 3rd fleet then surly it's Petrach's call so long as he can justify that his forces wont be exposed by their absence if asked.
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They are basically BuShips, BuWeps, BuPers, and BuInt all in one.
I just can't imagine this ever being true. The Security Council is one of the three branches of the GTVA government, not a military organ (though it doubtless has military representation.) If it works anything like the IRL Security Council, it's responsible for major strategic decisions, not micromanagement.
I agree with The_E on this one.
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I must admit I had the security council pegged as being similar to the American Joint chiefs of Staff judging from the tech room brakedown so more policy orientated rather than plan on the ground. The_E's explanation sounds better but if the Corvettes were part of the 3rd fleet then surly it's Petrach's call so long as he can justify that his forces wont be exposed by their absence if asked.
For normal operations, I'd agree, but this is a mission where ships go through an old artefact to end up god knows where. Something like that, leading to a possible first contact situation, are a bit beyond what Joe Politician wants Sam Soldier to handle on his own, I think.
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It's worth to notice that deploying two corvettes into an unexplored nebula full of shivans to lure out a destroyer will probably require higher authorization than deployment of jump node blocade... That was quite a risk compared to a blocade (like when the mjolnirs are massacring the NTF). Ask the Lysander how well it worked.
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I'd buy two wings if you're out in the boonies, but if you're in, say, Capella, I would put big money on Corvette or Destroyer presence at all times. The simple reason being that there is literally nothing of greater strategic value in any system beyond that jump node except for perhaps shipyards, and then only for select systems.
There's no real reason to deploy heavy forces to the node and expose them to attack. Leaving them back from the node gives you at least a brief window of uncertainty on the part of your opponent as to whether they're even there, and grants greater options for position once action is underway. Two wings is more than enough to provide security against piracy and a tripwire against a major enemy incursion. More heavily populated systems might require more force to protect and scan a larger amount of traffic, maybe.
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IIRC, two :V: missions take place at the Alpha Centauri node cluster. There's one in FS1 after Vasuda gets baked, and one in the Templar campaign.
Evidence that suggests these nodes, at least, did not move - relative to each other.
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I'd buy two wings if you're out in the boonies, but if you're in, say, Capella, I would put big money on Corvette or Destroyer presence at all times. The simple reason being that there is literally nothing of greater strategic value in any system beyond that jump node except for perhaps shipyards, and then only for select systems.
There's no real reason to deploy heavy forces to the node and expose them to attack. Leaving them back from the node gives you at least a brief window of uncertainty on the part of your opponent as to whether they're even there, and grants greater options for position once action is underway. Two wings is more than enough to provide security against piracy and a tripwire against a major enemy incursion. More heavily populated systems might require more force to protect and scan a larger amount of traffic, maybe.
I agree. I don't think an older cruiser for show would hurt either, as well as coordinating ship activity (making sure everyone whose been scheduled to jump, has jumped, etc). Although, that could probably be achieved by your two fighter wings, if need be.
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Man, that would be a crap detail. You go from blasting Shivans in the Great War to counting freighters at a jump node. :ick:
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Man, that would be a crap detail. You go from blasting Shivans in the Great War to counting freighters at a jump node. :ick:
If I'm on a Fenris I would rather count freighters
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Man, that would be a crap detail. You go from blasting Shivans in the Great War to counting freighters at a jump node. :ick:
If I'm on a Fenris I would rather count freighters
Ayup. Freighters don't pose much of a threat to a Fenris, but Shivans sure do.
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Man, that would be a crap detail. You go from blasting Shivans in the Great War to counting freighters at a jump node. :ick:
If I'm on a Fenris I would rather count freighters
Ayup. Freighters don't pose much of a threat to a Fenris, but Shivans sure do.
hence why i would rather count freighters. Without Alpha 1 a FS1 era Fenris is a big old target against the shivans with only the Aten being a more hopeless warship
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The Aten has more hitpoints, thus is more likely to survive being sneezed on by a wing of interceptors.
FS1-era turrets may as well count for jack **** against Shivans.
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The Aten has more hitpoints, thus is more likely to survive being sneezed on by a wing of interceptors.
FS1-era turrets may as well count for jack **** against Shivans.
and hp is useless unless you can fend of your attackers
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It lets you run awaaaay.
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It lets you run awaaaay.
And that's why the Vasudans were winning the T-V war, all of our fighters and cruisers were chasing Atens while the Typhons went for the kill
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It lets you run awaaaay.
And that's why the Vasudans were winning the T-V war, all of our fighters and cruisers were chasing Atens while the Typhons went for the kill
The Aten goes faster than the Fenris btw. :p
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Since we are kind of on the subject of the Fenris I was wondering if there is gravity on a ship that size. Is there any mention on how they produce gravity?
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We know there were gravity on Orions at the time of the Great War, and there doesn't seem to be any rotative device on it, so I'd expect artificial gravity to be mastered by Terrans at that point.
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I feel like I remember an argument where somebody mentioned that V had confirmed there was artificial gravity in ships.
Now that I see that in writing it doesn't look like a very good argument, but I'll try to dig up my source.
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I feel like I remember an argument where somebody mentioned that V had confirmed there was artificial gravity in ships.
Now that I see that in writing it doesn't look like a very good argument, but I'll try to dig up my source.
It was aldo, discussing a :v: dev letter in which they confirmed both artificial and anti-grav technologies.
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Is a copy of any of that extant?
I'm a historian, I like to have sources. :P Plus, if it gets dug up, we can quickly refer to it in subsequent debates.
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There are marines standing at attention and officers and ratings at control panels in all of the canon mainhalls, I'd say artificial gravity is fairly well supported even without Word of God explicitly stating it.
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This reminds me of how the GTVA assraped the NTF fleet with Mjolnir stationary beam cannons. They should put one of those in every node. :lol:
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Would be a good idea, if not for two things.
1. If the GTVA usurps control of a node, those cannons can now be used against their invading fleet.
2. They look pretty expensive. :P
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3. They're very fragile. Check out the King's Gambit. On any difficulty Medium or higher, at LEAST one goes down to Ulys before you can get anywhere near them, even if you ignore the incoming capships.
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How about putting an elite Ursa bomber pilot in every node, complemented by perhaps, 3 fighters?
EDIT----
3. They're very fragile.
You won't see them going down easily as I said, only one for every node; if you put three, like 5 km away from each other that'd be quite a tough job to protect them for a single wing of fighters. How about a Mjolnir near every node, and a wing of fighters patrolling it? Having at least 2,500 hitpoints it should be able to hold those hostiles off and, if it gets worse, they can call in reinforcements.
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Just attach some ULTRA AAA beams and flak turrets onto the already-crowded Mjolnir platform. That way no one gets close without getting vaporized :D. The only efficient way to take them out would be two salvos of dual Trebs.
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What about the FS1 mission where the shield prototypes are being transferred to Ribos? The installation there is clearly guarding the node, its the only point of interest in the area, but the installation is hung back, so as to prevent it from taking direct fire from incoming warships.
Ive always agreed that the nodes seem woefully undefended, but at the same time, look at the sheer amount of punishment warships can soak up. Look at the ships in the King's gambit for example. We were ripping the **** out of them, and on higher difficulties some still escape. This is after running what is it, 3? (i cant remember someone let me know) successive blockades, before reaching Alpha 1 and his god awesome skillz. Wouldn't it then make sense to have a fluid and rapid response from a fleet rather then static defenses? Every credit the GTVA spends on immobile stations is one less they spend on fleet units. Now, since fleet units do bring heavy firepower to bear, and enemy units still slip through, I think mobile units are a better choice, as they can pursue the enemy rather then sit their scratching their asses.
Mix that with the fact that mobile units can then be used as an attack force, and their value goes up exponentially.
Also, look at our canonical sources. The T-V war lasted 14 years, where the situation looked to remain highly fluidic (the terrans were on the doorstep of Vasuda, but unable to push it to victory), I expect any static defenses were wiped out early on or simply weren't funded in favor of mobile defenses and raiding forces, that could exact damage and pull out. Even leviathans, specifically designed for defensive roles, were mobile.
What happens when I build tons of defenses at the Ribos/Antares node, but then conquer Antares? If i used a fleet to defend the Ribos/Antares node then I can simply move the fleet up. If i used stations and heavy fixed defenses, then what are they doing now? Sitting there and chewing away my resources on maintenance. And in a 14 year war, resources are not plentiful. The same can be held true for FS2. Look at the GTVA. Despite the Vasudans miraculous economic recovery, they are still hurting bad, and rebuilding. The same but worse can be said for the Terrans. Mobile defenses canonically are more useful, and there never seem to be enough of them.
Or have we all forgotten how often ships have been 're-prioritized' for other engagements? It comes down to cost.. and well. What I deem to be effectiveness based on the amount of punishment we've seen destroyers soak up.
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I think an orion is basically an installation with some thrusters. (and subspace drive) In space moving mass around is cheap. No point in having your defences not mobile.
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No point in having your defenses not mobile.
Unless you can't afford enough subspace drives or fuel. Then you could build sentry guns and space stations to watch over jump nodes and other places that need to be guarded, and if the situation changes you can hire a freighter to move stuff around.
BTW- anyone know of a small armed installation with a hangar bay, such as an Exos with turrets?
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Unless you can't afford enough subspace drives or fuel.
Fuel only comes into play if you actually UES the thrusters. But a suspace drive of an orion certainly sound expensive.
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No point in having your defenses not mobile.
Unless you can't afford enough subspace drives or fuel. Then you could build sentry guns and space stations to watch over jump nodes and other places that need to be guarded, and if the situation changes you can hire a freighter to move stuff around.
BTW- anyone know of a small armed installation with a hangar bay, such as an Exos with turrets?
Try Asteria
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Fuel only comes into play if you actually USE the thrusters.
Well, that is a point, but you need to build all the machinery, fuel tanks and a nice armor shield for them into your defensive position. And that costs a lot probably, given that there are lots of sentry guns floating around, and not a single canon combat drone protecting cargo containers and similar stuff.
You'll also need full time engine crews which could operate a freighter (which might just cost as much as adding a proper engine to an installation to make it a destroyer) instead during the long periods when your position is not changing, and generate some income.
But a suspace drive of an orion certainly sound expensive.
Agreed here.
Try Asteria
At 1 mile long it's too big. Found something better in the TBP folder- after chopping off the unnecessary rings and stuff I got a floating hangar that's 250 meters in it's largest dimension.
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Well, having a few Mjolnir cannons on every node is definitely cheaper than having a destroyer guard it. I mean, you are sacrificing a ship that commands an entire battlegroup, just to go on camping strategies? Why not use the cheaper alternative instead?
Destroyers, though having massive firepower, are more for use on serious and decisive battles than defense tactics. I believe that the situation in the King's Gambit was emergency and highly decisive, that's why they pulled in loads of firepower to guard the node.
If you put in, say, 3 Mjolnirs in a node the enemy always attacks at, then you can surprise them with 3 beams that are pointed directly at the ship that jumps out of it. If the enemy fields in an important ship, say a destroyer, then it is wrecked to pieces shockingly before it has the chance to jump out (remember, having fixed guns guarding a node, you can choose the concentration of firepower needed, unlike a destroyer, where guns are scattered around it).
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The Destroyers aren't tasked to the node in 'camping strategies' but when you KNOW the enemy will assault a node, where else are the naval units going to be? Backed up by mjolnirs yes, but destroyers can follow leakers. RBC's cannot
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/me recalls the intro to G-Police.
Whoaaa, blast from the past. That game was awesome.
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Yeah man, they don't make 'em like that anymore. :(