Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stormy Fairweather on December 08, 2010, 07:13:24 pm
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Yeah, the whole Wikileaks things is still exploding, now there are cyber attacks from both the establishment and those fighting for freedom of information, and it has further spilled over to targetting financial institutions baking both sides.
Considering the escalation, and the current trends, as well as my own experience with people and the web, this is NOT going to die down. I actually speculate this may be the beginning of the first truly Global War, a war that involves all countries all around the world, a war between those who wish to govern with absolute authority, and the people who wish to live in a reasonable, free and fair society. Sooner or later, the fact that one person or group of people 'governing' another will NEVER be fair is gonna be realized and when it is the entire game will change. It may become a war between military and civilians.
The line has been drawn in the sand, everyone has already chosen a side, even if only a few have chosen to fight so far.
It is time for a revolution people. We are a global society now. Countries and borders are artificial lines with no real meaning to this generation, except for the remnants of the last generations using them to control us. We need to stop prosecuting people for things that are not criminal, like telling the truth, hiring a hooker, drugs or simply not understanding an intentionally incomprehensible tax code. Sure, you may not like hookers (I don't) and you may not like booze (I don't), and you may even like a tax law that lets you feel as though you are getting away with something (I don't), but is it fair? Is it fair to tell someone they cannot do what they wish with their own body? Is it fair to make taxes different for one person than another?
One of the founding fathers of the US said, "To ensure freedom we need to have an armed rebellion every twenty years." It has been two hundred years. During that time we have lost a tremendous amount of freedom one inch, one regulation, one bylaw, one bill, one censor at a time. George Washington would have spent about ten minutes in the DMV before he started cussing enough to put Eminem to shame.
Reason must prevail. And the more information available, the better people can reason. Trying to squelch information is exactly the same thing as squelching reason, and considering that intelligence is our ONLY biological advantage it is exactly like a queen bee telling her workers not to fly or sting.
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Deep stuff, man.
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tl;dr
Sounds like doomer rhetoric.
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Do we have to do this? Let's talk about FreeSpace!
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Yes we have to :D
How to Start a Revolution:
http://www.wikihow.com/Start-a-Revolution
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Do we have to do this? Let's talk about FreeSpace!
This.
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(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y268/torihouji/tldr.jpg)
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You're either a bit of a troll or a bloke who in my opinion, reads into this a little too much. If you're right, I'll give you a nickel.
Also, have fun being on the FBI's watchlist now.
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:lol:
Yeah, how bout you go live in some **** hole where the government barely exists and you can have all the sex, drugs and lawlessness you want. Do that for a year then come preach about your anarchist utopia, assuming somebody doesn't put a 7.62 in your dome because they want your sneakers.
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I guess I had given the forum community too much credit based on what the modding community has done to Freespace.
My mistake, I shall seek reasonable discourse elsewhere.
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I guess I had given the forum community too much credit based on what the modding community has done to Freespace.
My mistake, I shall seek reasonable discourse elsewhere.
Guess that's the only option, since you certainly aren't bringing any with you.
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Hey, just because we don't buy into this whole "We must rise up against teh evul guvmint" stuff don't mean we're not intelligent.
Also, please remember that we're an international community. People from non-american countries have somewhat different attitudes about governments and how change can and should be effected.
Also? Calling an entire community stupid? NOT a good move. Consider that a warning from a global moderator.
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I was inferring the replies I had were stupid. And with two exceptions, they were. Telling me to go live in a ****hole is hardly addressing or contributing to the topic at hand.
Also, I am not american. Does not invalidate the anologies.
And the stance is that censorship is impossible, but that will not stop certain groups of people from trying to do so is a fashion that will foster tremendous tensions between the governemt (all of them) and the peopel (all of them too). And I was further specualting that the Wikileaks ongoing incident may be the catalyst...
But for replies I got a mule, realty advice, and mistaken for a mythical species.
Edit - Yeah I know, it was a deer. Mule sounded funnier in the list.
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There's already two wikileaks threads open.
Also, everything you said is the same old libertarian rhetoric. Get some new material if you're gonna be all WE NEED REVOLUTION NAO KTHX.
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Okay.
So here's my stance. As pointed out elseweb, wikileaks (and Julian Assange's) goal is to make the act of conspiring harder by enforcing stricter rules in terms of communication protocols. Will this change the way governments and businesses operate, if it is successful? Yes, certainly.
But will it lead to tensions? Will it lead to violent overthrowing actions, as you have alluded to in your post? I am rather uncertain about that.
What this is is a momentary distraction. In a month or two, wikileaks and the fallout from this leak, will probably have dropped off the news rotation again.
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You may be right... this time.
We are in a different world than our governgment realize, it is already digital. And in a digital enviroment information acts very much like a lifeform, spreading whereever it may.
And governments are going to get increasingly desperate to control data, implimenting more and more drastic measures. This is what will cause the tensions I am alluding to.
And iamzack;
[insert silly non relevent image of livestock here]
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I was inferring the replies I had were stupid. And with two exceptions, they were. Telling me to go live in a ****hole is hardly addressing or contributing to the topic at hand.
An intelligent posts deserves an intelligent answer.
That was not an intelligent post.
It made unprovable assertions about the origin of DDoS attacks on Wikileaks (if they're even attacks, I'm perfectly willing to believe they're just not equipped to handle the traffic they generated). It used anecdotal evidence that is not born out by even cursory examination of facts; things on the web never truly die, but they do lose momentum and stagnate, passing from favor.
The concept that anyone would attempt to wage another truly global war is ludicrous. It can't be done now. Europe is in the process of rendering its militaries stagnant, China and Russia can't project power beyond their own borders without the nuclear option. Peace has well and truly broken out. Unless you think PACFLEET is going to turn on LANTFLEET, or something equally retarded, the option just isn't there.
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There is a diferenece between an orcestrated event, and one that occurs.
All attempts to control information will be oppressive. This si not anecdotal, this is the only way it can be. And populations will only tolerate so much oppression (sure it is a lot, but finite) before they revolt. This too, is fact.
So, I see there as being two paths before us (with limitless variations of course). Either we actually become free, globally, with thought, speech and information. Or we face increasing oppression as those with power seek to control something that is by nature uncontrollable, the internet.
And if people revolt all around the world it will be global war, with no one at the helm.
No one is suggesting putting together a world war, please at least read what was typed before calling the author stupid.
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Okay say you have your global revolution, billions dead, economies in shambles infrastructure destroyed. Well crap gonna need to rebuild it and that will take taxes, governance and laws.
I'm socially progressive on a myriad of issues, I also have a firm handle on the fact that my government, all governments do things I disagree with and find morally reprehensible. But I'm pragmatic enough to understand that law and order is what keeps humanities' darker nature in check. The alternative is where some thirteen year old being interviewed on the news explains how his AK-47 is his most important possession, that it gets him food when he is hungry, medicine when he is sick and sex when he is horny. A society sans government is not going to end up with free downloadable content, weed and happiness for everyone.
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What he said. :yes:
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There is a diferenece between an orcestrated event, and one that occurs.
But that difference must be proved first, and I haven't seen it done.
All attempts to control information will be oppressive. This si not anecdotal, this is the only way it can be.
Knowledge is power. Power is a dangerous thing, and must be controlled by some means, because power left unchecked goes to bad places. This has been proved time and time again in the course of human history. I can point you to any emperor, to Genghis Khan, to Hitler. The human race has the knowledge to destroy itself in under a day, and you would see that information spread to the masses? A nuclear bomb in every driveway?
Your assertions are laughable. No, there are times when control is necessary, is the only sane choice.
And populations will only tolerate so much oppression (sure it is a lot, but finite) before they revolt. This too, is fact.
Cite. No, seriously, cite. The populations of the Soviet Russia, of Mao's China, of Hitler's Germany, they suffered oppression on a vast, systematic, incredible scale. They did not revolt. There was resistance, of course, there always is. But revolt? No. It took the collapse of the Soviet military due to economic forces to bring change to Russia, the military destruction of Hitler's government by outside forces to bring change there. China is still going and still improving on its abilities to oppress the people.
I challenge your assertion. You say it is fact, but the raw statement does not make it so.
So, I see there as being two paths before us (with limitless variations of course).
Internal contradiction detected.
Either we actually become free, globally, with thought, speech and information. Or we face increasing oppression as those with power seek to control something that is by nature uncontrollable, the internet.
If you honestly believe the internet is uncontrollable, you're quite dense. The reason the internet cannot currently be controlled is that no agreement can be reached on how to do so. If the threat you posit actually existed, that would not be the case.
And if people revolt all around the world it will be global war, with no one at the helm.
No one is suggesting putting together a world war, please at least read what was typed before calling the author stupid.
But I did. These two statements are contradictory. If you intend these revolts to go anywhere, accomplish anything, they must either involve or beat the standing armies of the world. And this will not be a Vietnam, where withdrawal is an option. The governments will fight to the death, and they hold all the cards.
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I guess I had given the forum community too much credit based on what the modding community has done to Freespace.
My mistake, I shall seek reasonable discourse elsewhere.
The problem is that we've had far too much of this kind of reasonable discourse. Faaaar too much.
We're all burnt out.
Insulting the entire forum community without having any idea of its history, probably not a great move.
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I can look up the technical details on how to make a nuke right now if I wanted to, actually I already know the jist of several different designs off the top of my head, but unfortunately I do not have a uranium mine at my disposal, you need material in order to turn some knowledge into an actionable state.
now the uncontrollability of the internet comes down to encryption, I cannot think of any form of the internet in which those who wish to act in secrecy would not be able to by encrypting their communications. granted it could be made more difficult but there is enough knowledge out there to make encryption schemes far to hard to crack for even national governments. and you would have to make public access to the internet impossible in order to make tracking of activity reliable.
now as far as Anonymous goes, they don't 'want' anything, that would be a moralfag position, if Anon did want to hurt any internet dependent entaty, like the MPAA they would not be attacking figurehead sites, the would be shutting down sites that advertise new movies on the week before opening day (MPAA example). most of what Anon seems to be doing in operation payback seems to be oriented around simply making noise and inciting lulzy headlines.
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Internal contradiction detected.
I am gonna start with this one, because it may help understand my stance. Look at my handle. My philosophy is everything that exists is contradictory, ironic in some manner. And until something stops making sense you don't understand it. Turns out physics works like this too. My actual perspective is something I have a very difficult time putting into words, as it usually encompasses both sides of an issue, and trying to do so has caused me to be accused of waffling in the past.
An event must occur before one can prove if it was ochestrated or not. Should my speculation comes to pass, I will have your proof ready.
There is irony in your stance on power as well, because if power needs to be controlled than that means someone is controlling that power, but then how do you control him? Who polices the police? However, there is one arena that will always provide an answer, survival of the fittest. Now before you blow a gasket, I am not talking simply being meaner or stronger. That wasn't how we killed mammoths and it won't be how we make a functioning and fair society. However, allowing an exchange of information will allow the same evolutionary processes to take place and eventually something amazing will come out of it. Like a working framework for an honest and fair society.
As for citations, an easy one would be the american war of independance. And that was only over taxation. Past that, all I can offer is that I would revolt pretty quick myself if the causes were more than minor annoyances, thousands though they be.
And yes, the current internet may be theoretically controllable. However that is not the only network, and more than that the protocols and methodologies for networking are fairly wide spread now Making new networks is a small task, and netowrking them together no larger.
And for your final note, see my first. I am about as ironic as a man get.
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at the risk of fanning the flames:
OP, you are either a troll or a moron, and quite possibly both. no, i'm not going to waste any more of my time by reading or giving any further consideration to your posts. good day to you sir.
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I have exactly the same capacity for intellact as I do for foolishness.
Via Socratic methodolgy, I think this puts me one up on you, sir.
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This ain't gamefaqs, boy. You come in here acting like you have revolutionary new ideas and ways of thinking that we've never considered, when in fact we've considered them to death, have screamed at each other till we're blue in the face, gotten countless bans and monkeys and ragequits over these ideas for years and years and years. HLP is full of smart folks and we welcome more smart folks, but don't go acting high and mighty if you can't stand to get knocked down a peg.
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he's probably an Anon altnick of a forumite regular, doubt it's someone who's been here for over 3 months though.
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Wow, is that the impression you got?
It is a subject I have been thinking on for awhile and wanted to discuss with intelligent people. So I made up a post that I had hoped would start converstation, hopefully even introduce me to ideas that would force me to completely rethink my positions.
And I got livestock, realty advice and mistaken for a mythical creature. (yeah, I said it already, but I do like the line)
I hope you will understand how that may have left a sour taste in my mouth.
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See, this is why I didn't want to do this. He was all enjoying playing FreeSpace and now we're probably going to watch this thread descend into a ragequit.
Wow, is that the impression you got?
It is a subject I have been thinking on for awhile and wanted to discuss with intelligent people. So I made up a post that I had hoped would start converstation, hopefully even introduce me to ideas that would force me to completely rethink my positions.
And I got livestock, realty advice and mistaken for a mythical creature. (yeah, I said it already, but I do like the line)
I hope you will understand how that may have left a sour taste in my mouth.
There are already two WikiLeaks threads open. You could've taken it there.
Keeping things light-hearted is important, too. It prevents flamewars and bans.
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Indeed. Any thread posted in GD may turn silly at any moment. It's best not to take it personally.
(Conversely, even a very silly thread may become a gem by chance.)
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You sound like some kind of High Max/Liberator hybrid mutant. :|
Anyway, you would probably have gotten better responses in either of the already existing wikileaks threads than in your own brand new thread. They're both super boring, so people such as me would not have even seen your post let alone declared tealdeer.
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FIGHT THE POWER
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Meh, it is hard to really care if people understand what you are trying to say on the internets. I was hoping to start a dialogue, it failed, I will get over it.
Maybe next time I will have more success.
As for the wikileaks thing... I really hadn't been interested in discussing that, just information control in this era and how the people will react to it. Either way, this conversation was killed about when that mule popped up, likely earlier. Maybe even in my opening.
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Probably because that discussion happened (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=72983.0) already (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=73062.0)?
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Your revolution won't work - the army has flamethrowers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4nknAzQPHE&feature=related).
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Meh, it is hard to really care if people understand what you are trying to say on the internets. I was hoping to start a dialogue, it failed, I will get over it.
Maybe next time I will have more success.
As for the wikileaks thing... I really hadn't been interested in discussing that, just information control in this era and how the people will react to it. Either way, this conversation was killed about when that mule popped up, likely earlier. Maybe even in my opening.
In general I just don't think you can post a thread about an upcoming world war and expect to be taken seriously by a bunch of hard-nosed cynics.
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I'm completely, totally stoned off my nuts right now and this theory STILL seems contrived.
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One of those is about the plight of the Wikileaks founder, the other is about the plight of Wikileaks.
Niether of those was what I wanted to discuss. As I just said.
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HLP is made up of assholes. Just look what they did to my pokeymans thread. :(
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Locked.
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HLP is made up of assholes. Just look what they did to my pokeymans thread. :(
hell id say you are an asshole. i know i am asshole. hell, everyone is an asshole. now that that factoid is out of the way, stfu!