Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: 67th GW Leader on May 01, 2002, 05:31:23 am
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Right... here is my opinion on the Shivans
Did they just attack us... for a prehemptive strike? i mean, Destroy the virus before it gets into the body kinda thing... Terrans ARE known for being bloody idiots with war based technology... perhaps it is the same with the Ancients and Vasudans... Don't flame me if i am totally wrong please :D
I was thinking of having a group of Shivans ally with GTVA... but that is a totally different story.
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The size and strength of the Shivans seems to negate that... but then again, look at the size and strength of the humble Aids or Ebola virus compared to a human being.
Possibly the Great War was an inital test of our strength - using mostly obsolete craft (as beams negate the lucifers shields, anyway) to try and get an easy victory.
When it failed, the Shivans were a little more cautious, and a bit slower to enter GTVA space. When they lost the Sathanas, they may have just decided that it wasn't worth the effort to fight a war, and 'cauterised' the wound - blowing up Capella. :)
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*compares terran and shivan fleets*
Ummm...I don't think so. They just wanted to destroy us.
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if they only wanted to destroy us, why would they stop at Capella, why wouldnt they fight on to the other systems? They went straight to the star instead of the jumpnodes to Epsilon Pegasi and Vega.
My opinion is that they wanted to get out of there, the only question being where.
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But when they just wanted to get out then why they didn't ask: "Yo good folks from earth. Could ya show us the way home"
Let me put it that way. If you're lost in a big-big city and want to find a hotel then you don't take a shotgun and shoot everyone but ask the way to your hotel.
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who said they wanted to ask for directions? maybe they just wanted to just blow up the Capella star and use the supernova to stabilize a node and warp out. Notice the way they jumped in the last cutscene and Petrach's monologue.
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OK, maybe you're right then. Still, they didn't have a reason to start a war with terrans.
BTW, it all comes out in TT (I won't make it the official solution of course, as I said it's :v: playground. just a small battlegroup discovers what really happened. Small battlegroup=alpha 1, heheheh)
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What if they didn't need a reason. If you are sawing down a tree, and a fleet of ants just happens to live on that tree, do you try to negotiate with the ants, to make them leave voluntarily, or saw down the tree anyway, wiping out the ants before, so not to hurt your hands that much.
And to Shivans we are nothing more than ants.
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Ego check: Capella was not about us. That much is certain.
Ask yourselves. How many Sathanas class juggernaughts would it take to break the GTVA defenses at either jump node?
If the GTVA got lucky and managed to beat one....bring on the 79 others. No....Capella was not about us. We were just in the way.
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i agree with icefire
we were just on their way
probably the lucy fleet was just scouting the area
maybe they're searching for the nacinents' artifacts 'cause they're the only race in the universe that discovered their secrets so they're trying to clean all the clues to thier weaknesses and dominate the whole galaxy
maybe they're even from another galaxy and looking at their subspace tech it doesn't seem as impossible
but these are just ideas...:D
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My idea on this is that the Shivans probably have several distinct fleets going around in space ("nomads wandering the universe," as Petrarch said), each with a different purpose. Each of their big battle groups probably originated from the same starting point many millennia ago, but they had/have little or no contact with the other fleets, as shown by the similarities in their designs but also the differences in their technology. The purpose of the Lucifer fleet was to annihilate other species (first the Ancients, and then the Vasudans and Terrans), while the Sathanas fleet had an entirely different purpose; their short-term goal was to create a new jump node of sorts by destroying Capella. (this is what Petrarch said; it is only speculation, but it is also the only official V stuff we have, and these kind of things usually contain subtle indications of the truth ;)) As for their general long-term objective, I am not really too sure about that; maybe as Petrarch said, finding a way back to wherever they came from? Who knows...
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Originally posted by IceFire
If the GTVA got lucky and managed to beat one....bring on the 79 others. No....Capella was not about us. We were just in the way.
Agreed. But I think the Shivans may have jumped a few more systems inwards and saughtered a few million GTVA people just for the fun of it.
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Shivans are the mysterious xenophobic alien race we know almost nothing about. note the nothing - that includes their motives. But it is most likely certain, that Shivans DON'T have fun. :nod:
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Although we would classify them as xenophobic...they may not even be AWARE of us as much more than blades of grass or a weed that needs to be cut out.
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I'd say ants that need stamping, comparing ppl to plants is dangerous.
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I used the plant analogy because we tend to view plants less as life than insects even when they are are fairly equal all things considered.
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Originally posted by IceFire
I used the plant analogy because we tend to view plants less as life than insects even when they are are fairly equal all things considered.
well, it's sure they've noticed the apes and fishies, anyway. So I don't think they don't pay attention to them. But I agree the GTVA is not their main concern, far from that.
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BARB-E-QUE
BARB-E-QUE
BARB-E-QUE!!!!
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Originally posted by 67th GW Leader
Right... here is my opinion on the Shivans
Did they just attack us... for a prehemptive strike? i mean, Destroy the virus before it gets into the body kinda thing... Terrans ARE known for being bloody idiots with war based technology... perhaps it is the same with the Ancients and Vasudans... Don't flame me if i am totally wrong please :D
I was thinking of having a group of Shivans ally with GTVA... but that is a totally different story.
Let me ask you this: Do you feel threatened by the hot dog before you eat it? (A better analogy if you ask me) :D
Theres no way the Shivans were threatened by us. If they destroyed a species 10,000 years ago then they must have a hell of a survival plan if they are still around.
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a few juggernauts supported with 12 or so Ravanas and 24ish Rakshasas, with fighter and bomber support could have easily wiped out the entire GTVA. Just how long does a Hecate last against a Sathanas?
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Originally posted by LtNarol
a few juggernauts supported with 12 or so Ravanas and 24ish Rakshasas, with fighter and bomber support could have easily wiped out the entire GTVA. Just how long does a Hecate last against a Sathanas?
One minute at the most. Of course that's assuming the destroyer is right in front of the Sathanas.
Play the Bearbaiting mission in FS2 and see how long it takes for the Hecate to go down
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ok...you guys seem to be missing a rather important point here...
we fired first
the shivans actually never went out of their way in any [V] stuff to kill terrans, unless to keep them out of their way. Bottom line IMHO, if we had stayed out of their way and let them go to capella, we wouldn't have lost half the ships we did lose.
On why they didn't say 'yo dudes from earth?', well, mebby they were, and Bosch was the only one who heard...
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I think Cappella somehow had something to do with Admiral Bosch.(Don't ask me how but its worth speculating)
If he really did indeed become friends with the Shivans like he was trying then he wouldn't let them crush the same race he was obsessed with saving.
Unless of course they killed him.:)
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we didnt fire first, a Rakshasa warped in on top of an Aoelus and beamed it to hell, or were you not paying attention to the command briefings?
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Originally posted by LtNarol
we didnt fire first, a Rakshasa warped in on top of an Aoelus and beamed it to hell, or were you not paying attention to the command briefings?
Admiral Bosch sent the NTC Trinity into the nebula to activate the portal and lure the Shivans into Terran Vasudan Space.
I don't think the Shivans would've entered Gamma Draconis at all if Bosch hadn't done this
...or were you not paying attention to the command briefings?
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The Shivans never went out of their way to harm Terrans? That's not how I remember the end of FS1...
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and Ses strikes again...OWNT
and where does it say that the Trinity was in the Nebula before that first Rakshasa appeared?
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The "we fired first" thing may have something to it. It is known that the GTI was probably aware of the existence of the Shivans long before even the Riviera attack and possibly had some encounters with them. If they had done something to anger the Shivans then, it would explain why the Lucifer fleet was bent on destroying both species. It is known that the Ancients did the same thing; attempting (and succeeding most of the time) to destroy any hostile species they encountered. Still, I think that this is a bit less likely than some other theories, due to the fact that the Shivans weren't exactly friendly when they boarded the Iceni in FS2, even though they had recieved a message of peace from Bosch.
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right, see I was going all the way back to FS1 history. The GTI probably proved to be a thorn in their side, so to pave the way for future traffic in this area (I.E. Sath fleet looking for possible star to form a gateway to), and found some pests. Before you build a house, you eliminate the termite nest. If we had gotten out of their way, and not been noticed, they would have just passed us by.
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Originally posted by LtNarol
and where does it say that the Trinity was in the Nebula before that first Rakshasa appeared?
You have to pay attention to the command briefings.
I was mocking you before but now I'm serious.
Play the FS2 campaign and PAY ATTENTION TO THE COMMAND BRIEFINGS. Admiral Petrarch says it somewhere in the middle of the campaign in a (guess what?)COMMAND BRIEFING!!!!!!!!
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the go figure out which one it is and tell us because i just flat out refuse to believe it
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Originally posted by LtNarol
the go figure out which one it is and tell us because i just flat out refuse to believe it
yeah right, you're just too lazy to check :p
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Originally posted by Stunaep
And to Shivans we are nothing more than ants.
If we were ants to the Shivans, we wouldn't be able to destroy their ultimate ship, SJ Sathanas.
But there is one more thing that puzzles me. How did :snipe:s know that those 9 SJs were heading towards Capella?
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Originally posted by LtNarol
the go figure out which one it is and tell us because i just flat out refuse to believe it
He's right. The time line goes something like this.
Trinity opens the knossos
Trinity gets sucked into nebula when the portal activates
Trinity encounters shivans and gets attacked
Trinity powers down and drifts away from the portal.
Shivans become aware that the knossos is active again
Shivans pass through the portal and attack GTVA ships
The Trinity opened the knossos. If the Trinity wasn`t in the nebula when the rakshasa came through, where the hell was it?
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Originally posted by Razor
If we were ants to the Shivans, we wouldn't be able to destroy their ultimate ship, SJ Sathanas.
You're assuming the Sathanas is their best ship..... with 80 of them, I'd expect the Saths to be a first wave assault fleet, rather than true kill-all-living-things heavy weaponry.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
You're assuming the Sathanas is their best ship..... with 80 of them, I'd expect the Saths to be a first wave assault fleet, rather than true kill-all-living-things heavy weaponry.
for my part, in all honesty, I don't even think the Sathanas is a warship. Sure, it has 4 damn powerful beams... but that said, it's still not fitted for real battles, you can flank it, it's dead. The shivans, I have no doubt, are not stupid enough to ignore this fact. So I think the sathanas is made just to blow up stars ( for any reason they have ). It's not made for waging wars against other species.
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Originally posted by venom2506
for my part, in all honesty, I don't even think the Sathanas is a warship. Sure, it has 4 damn powerful beams... but that said, it's still not fitted for real battles, you can flank it, it's dead. The shivans, I have no doubt, are not stupid enough to ignore this fact. So I think the sathanas is made just to blow up stars ( for any reason they have ). It's not made for waging wars against other species.
well, your dealing with a different mindset for the Shivans... whilst GTVA ships tend to focus around covering flanks, the Shivans proably prefer to be able to deliver a devastating blow from their preferred angle. It's unlikely a Sath would be half as dangerous to ships if its beams were spread out onto the sides. It armour is good enough to buy it time to maneuver, anyway.
I'd say the Sathanas seems suited to a defensive position, though - have 10 or so guarding a ship / installation, with their beams pointing outwards - like buffalo guarding the weaker animals in the centre of the herd.
The other thing is that the Sath could well be the Shivan equivalent of a carrier....
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Oke, what if shivans attacked us, cos we are the ancients...
Maybe they blow up capella cos they were afraid of us... U know... thay may thought that we have 1000000 more collosuses... So they blow up capella to protect themself from invadin GTVA... Maybe bosch lied tho shivans that they would go away in fear and not harm terrans...
HURAY TO BOSCH!!!
Hmmm... i always write bull****s :(
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for my part, in all honesty, I don't even think the Sathanas is a warship. Sure, it has 4 damn powerful beams... but that said, it's still not fitted for real battles, you can flank it, it's dead. The shivans, I have no doubt, are not stupid enough to ignore this fact. So I think the sathanas is made just to blow up stars ( for any reason they have ). It's not made for waging wars against other species.
I still think its a warship, but your on the right track. I don't think the Sathanas is JUST a warship. I think it shows how advanced Shivans really are when we actually look at the largest ship we know them to have and realize that it may be a warship as an afterthought.
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ok, i was wrong about the trinity, i'm sorry for what i said.
As for the Sathanas, if its supported by a few Ravanas and Demons, it can put up quite a fight as the destroyers can protect her flanks either by waiting at her back or by engaging whatever comes at the Sathanas from the sides before they reach strike range.
The best use i can see for the Sathanas however is the same role as modern day heavy artillery; it can hang back and provide heavy support for fighters/bombers, cruisers, corvettes and of course destroyers. They may not be suited to the kind of close range fighting you see in the GTVA's prefered arena, but the shivans would likely -create- their own conditions for waging war dont you think?
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Originally posted by Razor
If we were ants to the Shivans, we wouldn't be able to destroy their ultimate ship, SJ Sathanas.
But there is one more thing that puzzles me. How did :snipe:s know that those 9 SJs were heading towards Capella?
Big deal. There are poisonous ants capable of killing humans, right.
Oh and about the snipes thingy. Well, there were two subspace nodes: knossos 3 and the one from knossos 2. where else could they be going. If they were converging on the Capella star, it would seem logical.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
well, your dealing with a different mindset for the Shivans... whilst GTVA ships tend to focus around covering flanks, the Shivans proably prefer to be able to deliver a devastating blow from their preferred angle. It's unlikely a Sath would be half as dangerous to ships if its beams were spread out onto the sides. It armour is good enough to buy it time to maneuver, anyway.
Agreed. Look at the Cain/Lilith, the Ravana, the Sathanas (duh).Even the Lucifer. The only exception is the Demon, but that was from FS1 anyway. The Demon is obsolete.
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Demon is far from obselete, the the Ravana can cover he own flanks, unless a ship were to drop into her aftertrail.
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Originally posted by IceFire
I still think its a warship, but your on the right track. I don't think the Sathanas is JUST a warship. I think it shows how advanced Shivans really are when we actually look at the largest ship we know them to have and realize that it may be a warship as an afterthought.
Well, it's definately a bloody good sentry gun :)
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Originally posted by Analazon
ok...you guys seem to be missing a rather important point here...
we fired first
the shivans actually never went out of their way in any [V] stuff to kill terrans, unless to keep them out of their way. Bottom line IMHO, if we had stayed out of their way and let them go to capella, we wouldn't have lost half the ships we did lose.
On why they didn't say 'yo dudes from earth?', well, mebby they were, and Bosch was the only one who heard...
That, Analazon, has always been my theory on the Shivans. I totally agree with you. Watch Hall Fight: who attacks first?
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Originally posted by FSW
That, Analazon, has always been my theory on the Shivans. I totally agree with you. Watch Hall Fight: who attacks first?
:wtf:
there's no proof that we attacked fisrt in FS1 or before.
in the hallfight scene, sure, they were running at the marines for a good hand shake :p.
And about that capella stuff, too bad the system was entirely coloniozed, right? we should have left the system and let them blow up the star :p
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Originally posted by LtNarol
Demon is far from obselete, the the Ravana can cover he own flanks, unless a ship were to drop into her aftertrail.
The main Shivan destroyers: SD Demon SD Lucifer and SD Ravana all seem to have totally different purposes.
The Demon's primary function seems to be fighter and bomber launching. Whereas the Lucifer can wipe out an entire fleet if necessary. The Ravana seems to be a combination of the two being a formidable weapon against GTVA battle groups
But this is just what I think
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Originally posted by FSW
That, Analazon, has always been my theory on the Shivans. I totally agree with you. Watch Hall Fight: who attacks first?
YES! someone who agrees with me!
I knew there had to be one or two out there ;)
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Going back to Bosch and ETAK for a minute...How did Bosch know that what he sent was a message of peace? Was ETAK a translator or just a message sender based on intercepted Shivan messages? Maybe Bosch thought he was saying something peaceful but in fact said something hostile.
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Originally posted by Corsair
Going back to Bosch and ETAK for a minute...How did Bosch know that what he sent was a message of peace? Was ETAK a translator or just a message sender based on intercepted Shivan messages? Maybe Bosch thought he was saying something peaceful but in fact said something hostile.
U got point here...
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I think a point everyone misses in saying that if we had just quietly left Cappella the Shivans wouldn't have bothered us is the fact that they kept hitting the convoy's leaving the system. If they really didn't care about us, then they only would have killed what was absolutely necessary to achieve their goal of blowing up the star, but they didn't. They went after all the civilian convoys with huge waves of fighters and bombers, which even given the Shivan armada seems like a waste resources. If ants were invading your house, and you stomped a few big ones and then they all turned and left, you wouldn't bother to chase after them.
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Originally posted by ##UnknownPlayer##
I think a point everyone misses in saying that if we had just quietly left Cappella the Shivans wouldn't have bothered us is the fact that they kept hitting the convoy's leaving the system. If they really didn't care about us, then they only would have killed what was absolutely necessary to achieve their goal of blowing up the star, but they didn't. They went after all the civilian convoys with huge waves of fighters and bombers, which even given the Shivan armada seems like a waste resources. If ants were invading your house, and you stomped a few big ones and then they all turned and left, you wouldn't bother to chase after them.
Hmmm... If some ants goes away, more will come to get the thing they want :nod:
That's what shavans thought...
I know whats shivans think... cos i'm one of em...;7
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Originally posted by Stunaep
Big deal. There are poisonous ants capable of killing humans, right.
Oh and about the snipes thingy. Well, there were two subspace nodes: knossos 3 and the one from knossos 2. where else could they be going. If they were converging on the Capella star, it would seem logical.
Maybe they planned on stopping for gas in the nebula ;)
Or maybe they came for a Shivan reunion.... :D
Also, there are at least three jumps to Capella from their position. They could've been going anywhere: Gamma Draconis, the nebula, or they could've just stayed in that system.
Plus, remember that there is no star in Gamma Draconis? Capella was the next system with a star, so that was obviously going to be the next nebula!
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Gamma Draconis HAS a star, it does not have planets, but it has to have a star, otherwise it would not be a STAR system.
Anyway, since they DID go to Capella, what's the point in arguing.
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I guess the point is to determine how Snipes was able to predict the future. :D Still, Capella was the only inhabited system out of the locations they could have gone to, and the first one went to Capella, so it would be logical reasoning that the others might do the same. ;)