Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: peterv on December 10, 2010, 03:45:52 am
-
will the Orion textures be baked in a single texture?
-
A single texture for a ship over 1km in length?
Nah, that would just look bad when you flew close.
-
A single texture for a ship over 1km in length?
Nah, that would just look bad when you flew close.
It actually doesn't when done right. The new Colossus has two textures for the main hull at 2048^2 resolution (one for the greebles, and one for the hull) and it doesn't look bad at all when flying close. Esarai's Phoenix Rising has one hull texture and it doesn't look bad up close either. Want me to go on? :p
-
Capital ships with a single map for their hull look worse to me... I cannot judge the Colossuss since it's not released yet.
-
Please, tilemap it. Tilemaped ships are more friendly for modders and easier to modification.
-
* MatthTheGeek slaps Betrayal with an unoptimized Karuna *
Tilemapped ships are terrible in term of performance. Tilemapping is outdated and ugly.
Seriously, you will achieve both a better performance ingame an a much better look with a real UV-mapping.
-
I believe some ships use tile-UV hybrids, but in general, please go for a UV. Tilemapping is terrible.
-
Reskining UVed ships is more difficult though.
Hybrids are not really a good idea, since they're neither as good looking as UVed ones, nor as easy to reskin as tiled ones.
-
Capital ships with a single map for their hull look worse to me... I cannot judge the Colossuss since it's not released yet.
Tell that to this (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/VA--Twisted_Infinities/Hades/HadesTexWIP31.jpg) (technically two maps but that's not the point). Anyway there aren't that many uvmapped capital ships out right now to judge on - maybe the Lucifer and the Hatshepsut (how can you say that looks worse???). The Colossus is going to be baked anyway, so it probably won't look quite as good as a decent uv'ed texture can.
-
What resolution the textures on that Hades have?
-
I believe some ships use tile-UV hybrids, but in general, please go for a UV. Tilemapping is terrible.
That depends on the textures you have available for use.
Besides, UV mapping a massive warship is a lot of work, and the results are not much different...but that depends on the warship in question and how it should end up looking, greebling, shape and other factors...the difference is usually visible only on some parts (unless you deliberately want every part of your ship to have a different plating)
I'm sorry, but I just don't see a full UV map worth the time investment, especially given the amount of stuff on my to-do list.
If this was a RTS where you can't zoom in close and fly 5cm away from the hull surface..then I'd UV map everything (for example, all my ship for SOTS are UV mapped). But then again, the ships would be easier on the detail then too.
Hell, if someone wants to UV map the Archangel, be my guest. I will send over the 3D Max model and everything.
-
Reskining UVed ships is more difficult though.
Hybrids are not really a good idea, since they're neither as good looking as UVed ones, nor as easy to reskin as tiled ones.
if you are lacking in any memorable skills as a texture artist, then yes, reskinning properly uvmapped ships is more difficult. Tile mapping shouldnt ever be used anymore.
-
if you are lacking in any memorable skills as a texture artist, then yes, reskinning properly uvmapped ships is more difficult.
Unfortuantely, I'm lacking even non memorable skills when it comes to making textures. :)
-
Besides, UV mapping a massive warship is a lot of work, and the results are not much different...
[...]
I'm sorry, but I just don't see a full UV map worth the time investment
If I cumulated all the time I spent lagging because of tile-mapped ships, I would have learnt to UV already.
-
You should get a new computer bro.
Cause retail ships are tilemapped.
-
Retail ships have low resolution tiles (mostly 256x256), while new ones are ussualy about 512x512, with shine and normal maps (and often also with glow).
-
You should get a new computer bro.
Cause retail ships are tilemapped.
Which is why we HTL them, and we make HTL with proper UV-mapping. Or at least recent HTLs are.
-
Makes them a ****ing ***** to retexture since noone ever gives me the source (or gives anyone the source for that matter, the only person that I've seen do that is Vengeance)
I guess it cuts down on the number of ****ty retextures though :P
-
Easier retextures aren't worth the optimization.
-
Yeah, I just wish people wouldn't hoard the source files to themselves and force us to recompress DDS files half a billion times.
Look at how some of the mediavps textures have suffered because of that (ungh).
Makes stuff look like ****.
-
If I cumulated all the time I spent lagging because of tile-mapped ships, I would have learnt to UV already.
UV mapping a fighter? Easy.
Unwarapping a capital ship? Takes time.
Making a custom texture for it? Takes even longer.
Besides, there are ways of optimizing even with tile mapping (smart selection and use of textures). But I find on capship a combination of both is efficient. 2-4 large base textures for the basic hull plating and stuff, and 1 or 2 for the details.
-
You know, I'd say that although it might have taken some time, all of Stellar Assault's capital ships are UV mapped, and they're that much better because of that fact.
-
You know, I'd say that although it might have taken some time, all of Stellar Assault's capital ships are UV mapped, and they're that much better because of that fact.
Yes. Seriously. The SAFSO capships look clean and gorgeous because Quanto did such a pro job UVMapping them.
Absolutely worth it.
-
Besides, there are ways of optimizing even with tile mapping (smart selection and use of textures).
/me looks at the Typhon
When are you gonna start using that
-
Reskining UVed ships is more difficult though.
Hybrids are not really a good idea, since they're neither as good looking as UVed ones, nor as easy to reskin as tiled ones.
if you are lacking in any memorable skills as a texture artist, then yes, reskinning properly uvmapped ships is more difficult. Tile mapping shouldnt ever be used anymore.
People can texture their ships how they want, what right do you have to dictate how a model is made?
Tbh I agree with Trashman, tiling mixed with UV is both easier and looks as good as full UV if done right. At the end of the day its upto the creator, he's putting his TIME and effort into it, he can do so how he feels like.
-
Reskining UVed ships is more difficult though.
Hybrids are not really a good idea, since they're neither as good looking as UVed ones, nor as easy to reskin as tiled ones.
if you are lacking in any memorable skills as a texture artist, then yes, reskinning properly uvmapped ships is more difficult. Tile mapping shouldnt ever be used anymore.
People can texture their ships how they want, what right do you have to dictate how a model is made?
Tbh I agree with Trashman, tiling mixed with UV is both easier and looks as good as full UV if done right. At the end of the day its upto the creator, he's putting his TIME and effort into it, he can do so how he feels like.
The increased texture count associated with tiling can be really bad for the engine. Witness Steve-O's ships.
UV is the way to go.
-
The increased texture count associated with tiling can be really bad for the engine. Witness Steve-O's ships.
*Twitches*
The horror...but oh so beautiful...
-
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/VA--Twisted_Infinities/Hades/HadesTexWIP36.jpg)
There's no tiling that can be done that looks as good as that.
Tbh I agree with Trashman, tiling mixed with UV is both easier and looks as good as full UV if done right.
Oh please, post an example that looks as good as that shot above. :p
(Note: VA says the gray parts on the top and that ring on the neck are not finished)
-
lvlshot plz
also: time/effort vs quality argument
will go nowhere.
Oh please, post an example that looks as good as that shot above. :p
Any of Steve-O's ships look pretty close, lagging the **** out of everyone aside.
-
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm56/HLPHades/no.jpg?t=1292052201)
Yeah, I don't think so. The texturing on steve-o's ships - or at least capitals - is atrocious. It's messy, almost doesn't go together, and hides any of the detail these models actually have.
-
and let us not mention the fact what atrocious beasts they are from the modelling side -.-
-
Framerate-wise, no, but aesthetically, they're very pleasing.
-
Let me explain my situation a bit more.
Normally I only got a crappy laptop to work with. It can't even run 3D max, so I can't UV map on it. I can run TS and I can work with it, but only on models that aren't too complex.
Friday afternoon, Saturday and Sunday - during this period I work on my mean machine. During this time I can work on all the complex stuff...and play games. That's it, when I'm not too busy with other stuff that pops up over the weekends - from watching over my sisters kids, to choir rehersals and other miscalaneus stuff that eats at my time.
Even if I had access to my powerful PC all days of the week, there are many things I want to do, and many things I have to do. Work, sleep, keeping my social life from flatlining and all the OTHER projects. I have stories I want to finish writing, AMVs I had planned for months, other mods and other games and a ****load of other stuff that's on the backburner and will probably never get done at this rate.
And I'm just one guy..I don't have a whole large team behind me, so I don't have the luxury of wasting months on just one ship, because no one will be doing the other stuff for me.
UV map + tile mapping can achieve a effect similar to that Hades image.
Not as varried as that, but I imagine it would end up sharper and crisper. Give me a texture artists to make custom tile textures, and even a tiled ship can end up looking decent. As it stands, the result reflects what one has to work with. Decent textures and smart use of them can gave you a good result. Not perfect, but good enough.
-
Cool story bro.
You should consider stopping to lie to yourself and accept the undeniable fact that tiling sucks.
-
Cool story bro.
You should consider stopping to lie to yourself and accept the undeniable fact that tiling sucks.
This post was unacceptable. I disagree with Trashman's method, but I understand why he uses it. You don't get to accuse him of lying.
And yeah, Hades is right; Steve-O's original ships look nowhere near as good as UVMapped versions.
-
You should consider stopping to lie to yourself and accept the undeniable fact that tiling sucks.
Tell that to the Orion.
As I said - I'll probably used a mix of methods. And if someone doesn't like that...tough.
-
I'll gladly tell that to the Orion. It would definitely benefit from a good re-UV.
-
Dude, you're obdurate as hell. If Trashman wants to tilemap his ships, he's free to do it. If you want to use his ships somewhere, find someone who can reUVmapp ships. This is not a problem. To uvmapping you need also good texture artist, melding a few mediavps textures are not a good idea. Wastage of time, and also it will be harder to modification. Someone might don't like dedicated textures or uvmapped textures won't fit to his standards [that's why I can't use Solaris -___-]. Good tilemaping can looks almost as good as uvmapping [Hecate, Oriom, Zagreus HTL] and it makes model easier to alter for modders.
Trashman, please make a tilemapping or a hybrid with predominance of tilemapped textures. You'll make my [and other modders] lifes easier :).
-
Let's try to steer this discussion away from personal remarks, shall we? :)
I believe that in the MediaVPs, there is some merit for both. Certainly, with talent and time investment, a fully UV mapped ship is superior--compare the Aten, the Hatshepsut, the Hades, heck even the Fenris, to the high-poly Orion or Hecate in terms of beauty and efficiency. For the worst example, see the Mjolnir.
A hybrid approach is also acceptable sometimes--the Ravana looks excellent due to the high quality of its individual tilemapped textures, and the animated glowmap is only possible because the animated UV texture is fairly small.
Creating a new, high-poly ship and tilemapping it is discouraged, however, from a quality and an efficiency standpoint. If you're having difficulty with painting textures, you could do what I did with the Colossus--apply tile maps, unwrap the UVs, then bake the Ambient Occlusion map onto it and tweak the textures in Photoshop/GIMP afterwards.
-
Way I see it, there are places were texture tiling really works well, and others where UV mapping is better.
Tiling has a few advantages: 1. Texture size can be low. Which means that rendering them is comparatively cheap.
2. Tilemaps can be edited without having to look at the actual model. If the modeller was clever about it, it won't be a big effort to make it look good.
Disadvantages are:
1. Using tiled textures means you have to use several different textures to achieve a good, varied look. Even given that tilemaps are, on average, smaller than comparable UVs in terms of resolution, using lots of textures is still not a good idea.
2. Effects like baked ambient occlusion are impossible.
3. It is impossible to highlight details on a model without increasing the texture count.
UV maps, on the other hand, have these advantages:
1. Baking effects, like the aforementioned ambient occlusion, are possible
2. Low texture counts. With the way the FSO engine works, using as few textures as possible helps keep performance high. As a rule of thumb, for every texture slot in the model, the engine needs to do one render pass. Given that every texture slot on the model can effectively mean 4 textures (diffuse, glow, shine and normal maps), keepig the effective total down is a good thing, as it keeps texture swapping to a minimum.
I refer you to this: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=72780.msg1437359#msg1437359
3. It is easy to highlight model regions using texture details.
Disadvantages:
1. They take more effort to edit.
2. In some scenarios, the maps will look worse in terms of apparent resolution.
All in all, as far as I am concerned, the benefits of having a proper UV far outweigh the negative aspects. That, however, does not mean that UVs are always superior; there are cases where a good tilemap is a cheap way of getting a model to look good.
-
In very, very specific circumstances, it's possible to have a hybrid effect: take a look at the high-poly Karnak and its texture sometime.
-
Regarding Galemps' point about using tilemaps as brushes and baking them later, that's what I use on this project:
(http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/E/faslane-fin-aq8.png)
-
OH well look at that.
SAAB... why does that sound so familiar, indeed a BP related stuff but, mm.
On this subject, I only know how to UV currently, but watching models uv mapped and comparing them to models tile mapped has always made me think UV is the right best way to go in a new model.
-
SAAB... why does that sound so familiar, indeed a BP related stuff but, mm.
Saab is a company which makes combat aircraft. It survived into the BP timeline.
-
Not only aircraft, but also weapons of all kinds.
There's also Saab Automoblie AB, which is not the same as the aircraft manufacturer, but is related to it.
-
SAAB... why does that sound so familiar, indeed a BP related stuff but, mm.
Saab is a company which makes combat aircraft. It survived into the BP timeline.
They also make unfashionable executive cars
Not only aircraft, but also weapons of all kinds.
There's also Saab Automoblie AB, which is not the same as the aircraft manufacturer, but is related to it.
I beg to differ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab
-
Just as I said, aircraft, weapons, EW systems, security.
Car manufacturer is related to it, but SAAB itself doesn't produce cars.
Another subcompany makes computers.
-
Honestly, I never "baked" maps before.
My usual procedure for making UV mapped ships (like a fighter) is to cut and slice the model, position the pieces around so I get all the important faces and parts clustered in the image, then render in wireframe. I use that render then as the background for making the texture..and then UV map the fighter.
Naturally, for a capital ship, that would be way too clumsy.
-
Let's put it this way: if you can't/aren't willing to uvmap, there's nothing that says that you can't tilemap, but that vastly decreases the chances of anyone actually using your ships, and pretty much guarantees that nothing you do will ever make it into the mediavps.
-
And everything except Space: Above And Beyond was mentioned. :P