Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: rscaper1070 on December 11, 2010, 04:31:37 pm
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I've been looking through the the various origin and motivation theories about the Shivans and thought I'd add my two cents. Here goes.
The Shivans evolved on a planet just like everybody else. They developed from an aggressive exploitative species that fought with itself and everything else on it's homeworld, eventually bringing the fight to space. Through the course of this constant warfare they manage to destroy their homeworld. A faction of these space faring Shivans decide to forgo terrestrial means of resource acquisition and develop ways to harvest materials from the nebulae that were present in their home system. The devices seen in "Into the Lions Den" are an advanced example of these material collectors. The briefing states you are heading deeper into the nebula but when you get there no nebula gas is present. These Shivans can out produce any of the other factions and become the dominate version of their race. Eventually they start running out of nebula and instead of traveling the great distance to a new one they develop a way to initiate a supernova using their own sun. This technology most likely preceded their discovery of subspace yet provided a deeper understanding of what subspace is. Ultimately they do discover subspace and proceed with their survival model. Scout an area, if opposition is encountered send in the Lucifer fleet to soften resistance, then send in the Sathanas fleet to create a new nebula. Meanwhile the Ancients were conquering and with the use of the Knossos Portals exploring farther and farther until they stumble upon the Shivans. The Shivans respond by eradicating the threat posed by the Ancients then pull back to their own territory that is still flush with resources leaving the systems opened up by the Knossos portals until it is time to expand again. It was the hubris of the Ancients that led them to the conclusion that the Shivans were sent to punish them. Like blaming the devil for the Black Death instead of fleas being fleas.
So that's my theory. I now prepare my sofa fort for your slings and arrows. :nervous:
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Shivan Comm nodes would have to be pretty hardcore to suck entire nebulas dry.
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Where is it stated that they are com nodes?
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FRED, your kill list.
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Since Alpha 1 doesn't have access to FRED I don't think that's relevant but I will concede the point that those devices aren't what the Shivans use to harvest nebulae. They have some other means.
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I'm not sure there are any means to completely suck up a nebula. You realize these things are like, lightyears across, right?
Then again, Shivans might have mysterious technologies that are capable of doing that.
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Since Alpha 1 doesn't have access to FRED I don't think that's relevant but I will concede the point that those devices aren't what the Shivans use to harvest nebulae. They have some other means.
It also says "Shivan Comm Node" on your kill list if you get credit for one during Into the Lion's Den.
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Did noone but me notice that the supernova technology couldn't be done prior to the discovery of subspace because it uses it to cause the bang in the first place? :nervous:
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It also says "Shivan Comm Node" on your kill list if you get credit for one during Into the Lion's Den.
Yeah, the mission debrief is sorta tough to argue with.
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Unless, of course, that's what Command simply suspects them to be.
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It also says "Shivan Comm Node" on your kill list if you get credit for one during Into the Lion's Den.
Point already conceded.
Did noone but me notice that the supernova technology couldn't be done prior to the discovery of subspace because it uses it to cause the bang in the first place?
Why? They could have developed subspace technology to create a supernova then later discovered it's use as a means of travel.
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My only issue with the Shivan com node is that the label is exactly that a label given to a device that has only been studied in any detail by a single fighter for a few seconds, at that point Comm node would be a best guess so not conclusive. With the volatility of the central core they could be energy storage/transportation or with the spinning blades they could be an AWACS device which could easily use technology derived from communications technology like radar is derived from radio communications, in that case the core could be an anti-mater reactor (GTVA warships still use fusion reactors if i remember correctly even the colly). Now if rscaper1070 had said that the gas miners had cleaned up the gas I would have said fair enough.
Another issue I have is that I dont think the GTVA can accurately predict the destination of a Knossos judging by the briefings for Mystery of the Trinity (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Briefing_texts_(FS2)#Mystery_of_the_Trinity). In mission brief 1 there is suspicious lack of a name for the nebula suggesting that they might not be able to place where they are, based on this I don't think they actualy know for certain where the second Knossos will lead to until they get there and use stellar cartography or something similar to determine their location
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My only issue with the Shivan com node is that the label is exactly that a label given to a device that has only been studied in any detail by a single fighter for a few seconds, at that point Comm node would be a best guess so not conclusive.
But.... but... it's canon. :shaking:
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I think they are called "Comm Nodes" probably because Command suspects them to be. They seemed to be luring the Sathanas fleet into the nebula, since they were clustering in that system in Into the Lion's Den.
I have some points to argue with;
1)Why didn't the Shivans start supernovaing their own stars first before having to invade Ancient, Terran, and Vasudan space? I mean, the stars in the GTVA systems aren't the only ones left, right? (Let's look at it this way. Shivans are, say, billions of lightyears from GTVA space. If they kept turning the stars near to them into nebulas first, then GTVA would have noticed why the universe is running out of stars). The Shivans simply ambushed the Ancients/GTVA for unknown reasons.
2)if opposition is encountered send in the Lucifer fleet to soften resistance
The Shivans didn't find opposition. They simply shocked the GTA and PVE with their command ship. If so, then either Terrans or Vasudans would've like, killed a number of Shivans, Shivans get mad, and send in a raging Lucifer to obilterate their foes. But no. We see in the FS1 cutscene a pilot screaming like hell about unknown ships. If they were unknown that means the Terrans and Vasudans never encountered them before, and so they wouldn't be known as enemies to Shivans.
3) then pull back to their own territory that is still flush with resources leaving the systems opened up by the Knossos portals until it is time to expand again.
Again, there are still billions of stars out there. They should've all been turned to nebulas before the Shivans go system-hopping using Knossoses, trying to find more starts to nebularize.
That.
In mission brief 1 there is suspicious lack of a name for the nebula suggesting that they might not be able to place where they
This actually struck me. There is no name for the nebula. It means that it's like, gigantically far away from GTVA space. If it were near the Terrans/Vasudans should've given it a name ages ago. Knossos Portals are, indeed, used for subspace travel, but I think they're able to transport ships extremely farther than typical trans-system nodes.
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It's fairly likely that they're just in a part of some nebula they can't identify, not necessarily one that has no name given by Terrans/Vasudans.
For example, if you were dropped out into the middle of the Sahara desert, without being able to see the route you took, would you immediately recognize it as the Sahara? Or if you were dropped in the Adirondack mountains, or the Gobi Desert, or Greenland?
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From "Into the Lions Den" briefing:
SOC needs a unit to fly suicide to check out a second Knossos device the Vasudans found deep in the nebula.
Personally I still think those devices are used to harvest resources but I'm willing to say it was gas miners or whatever else. My aim was to try to explain why the Shivans have no interest in taking possession of the planets in the systems they take control of. Everything needs resources. How do the Shivans get theirs? To me the destruction of Capella seems to be the Shivans shortening their supply lines.
1)Why didn't the Shivans start supernovaing their own stars first before having to invade Ancient, Terran, and Vasudan space? I mean, the stars in the GTVA systems aren't the only ones left, right? (Let's look at it this way. Shivans are, say, billions of lightyears from GTVA space. If they kept turning the stars near to them into nebulas first, then GTVA would have noticed why the universe is running out of stars). The Shivans simply ambushed the Ancients/GTVA for unknown reasons.
The Ancients invaded Shivan space and attempted to destroy them. The Shivans, clearly an aggressive species, annihilated the Ancients. They then return to their space with the knowledge of the portals.
The Shivans didn't find opposition. They simply shocked the GTA and PVE with their command ship. If so, then either Terrans or Vasudans would've like, killed a number of Shivans, Shivans get mad, and send in a raging Lucifer to obilterate their foes. But no. We see in the FS1 cutscene a pilot screaming like hell about unknown ships. If they were unknown that means the Terrans and Vasudans never encountered them before, and so they wouldn't be known as enemies to Shivans.
You are anthropomorphizing here. I think it's in the Shivan nature to be aggressive and destructive. "Getting mad" isn't a prerequisite for their behavior. The Shivans were unknown to that pilot. The GTI had encountered the Shivans before that cutscene IIRC.
Again, there are still billions of stars out there. They should've all been turned to nebulas before the Shivans go system-hopping using Knossoses, trying to find more starts to nebularize.
The Shivans development from a warlike aggressive species would probably prevent them from being content with just soaking up nebulae. Once they encounter a species they would attack it.
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Hey, what about the Rahu mining ships?
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All 3 races are able to mine valuable resources from nebulae. However, nuking a star and losing several Sathani in the process doesn't really come off as profitable to me. It might be a nice side-effect, but I don't think the Shivans are primarily out to simply nuke stars. And, we should be seeing a lot more nebula and less star where Betelgeuse (or w/e that binary system is beyond the second knossos) actually is.
Then again, maybe because it was such a tight binary, it wasn't possible to induce either star to go Nova. (I'm very curious as to what's beyond the 3rd knossos. Likely more nebula...)
If the Shivans need specific stars for their exploding systems to work, I'm wondering how the heck they figured out that Capella would work. I mean, they ignored the other star system(s) to get there.
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A star needs to be a certain mass to go super nova, too small and it just burns out.
We can tell from earth today what stars are big enough to do that, Im sure a Shivan fleet could tell from light years away too :nod:
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I was just mentioning what a Super Nova needs, I think theres more to it since as stated theres so many Stars out there I doubt Shivans would really care about GTVA space and its, what 40?, stars
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I'm actually rather impressed with your theory; that's some pretty good out-of-the-box style thinking. You managed to explain why the Shivans are cold and hostile, why they aren't interested in planets, the significance of nebulae and Shivan 'comm nodes', and the endgame events. I also like how this contrasts the commonly used theory that argues that the Shivans have a divine purpose of cleansing the universe of dangerously expanding civilizations like ourselves and the Ancients. Maybe the Shivans aren't so special afterall -- they're just a spacefaring race like ourselves but with a more unfortunate history.
Anyways, my first question was "Why go through all the trouble of nuking a star to make a new nebula when there's plenty of them around already -- a fact that Freespace's beautiful backgrounds reminds us repeatedly?" But then I realized, maybe only certain kinds of nebulae are useful for the Shivans. A young supernova remnant would probably be more dense than a typical nebula, and also richer in heavier elements. Certainly you can't make big spaceships without a good source of heavy elements.
Another possible answer to that question would be that maybe most nebulae aren't easy to reach, even with subspace travel. Natural subspace nodes seem to preferentially connect to stars, not nebulae.
There is one statement I disagree with though:
A faction of these space faring Shivans decide to forgo terrestrial means of resource acquisition and develop ways to harvest materials from the nebulae that were present in their home system. The devices seen in "Into the Lions Den" are an advanced example of these material collectors. The briefing states you are heading deeper into the nebula but when you get there no nebula gas is present.
The Knossos portal that led you to the Lion's Den mission is certainly deep within the nebula, but why should we be led to believe that the other side of the portal is (was) within the nebula as well? We already know from the first nebula mission that the first Knossos portal took us a very great distance. The briefing even states that "we have gone farther than any Terrans in the history of space travel". I have a very difficult time believing that the second portal wouldn't take us a similarly great distance.
Another difficulty is that all of the nebula missions display a single star in the background, while the Lion's Den mission takes place in a binary system. It also has little in the way of background nebulae. I'd expect to see at least a great wall of fuzziness in some direction if that system was once part of the greater nebula.
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Thanks for the positive response.
SOC needs a unit to fly suicide to check out a second Knossos device the Vasudans found deep in the nebula.
I guess I always thought that the jump that starts the mission was the jump deeper into the nebula. Looking at it more closely I realize they just did that for the "Dive, Dive, Dive!" effect.
Regardless I still think that the Shivans are blowing up stars to harvest them.