Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: mjn.mixael on December 15, 2010, 04:05:46 pm
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I'm going to work on cb_sm1-05_e (pictured below) while I wait on this stuff to be completed here. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=73289.0) (Go and do one, I'd very much appreciate it!).
The suggestion has been brought up that I change one of the science cruisers to an Imhotep (pictured below). I think it's a good idea as it gives the scene a little more interest as right now it has 5 science cruiser, a Deimos, Sobek and the Aquitaine. The Imhotep also has a nice scanner thing right on the front for this very purpose.
The problem is the Imhotep is non-canon. So... all's been explained. Place your votes!
[attachment deleted by admin]
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we are the canon now
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The Imhotep is, of course, featured in ST:R as a Vasudan counterpart to the Faustus.
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But you never see one in the FS2-Campaign.
Also those strange green scanner-rays look really odd. They remind me of the Borg holding beam (and you also don't see them in any campaign ever). I would rather make them violet or something like that.
Was the vasudan battle-group even there when they first discovered Knossos? I remember the Psamtik and its BG follow a few days/weeks after the Aquitaine arrives in Gamma Draconis...
(so I voted for 'No')
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The Imhotep is, of course, featured in ST:R as a Vasudan counterpart to the Faustus.
That's not an argument for it. It could be featured in Jesus Christ's campaign collaboration with Jason Scott and it wouldn't make a difference. The important thing is that it's an interesting replacement for the
actually you know what, I'm against this now, not because of any grudge against ST:R but because I don't think we can avoid this looking like some kind of ST:R-is-new-canon gig. MUST CHANGE VOTE
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I don't mind.
CBanis and cutscenes always had little quirks anyway which lead to inconsistencies, even amongst :v:'s stuff, rule of cool wins.
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I like the concept of the Imhoteph, but it's quite low poly, and the texturing needs work to bring it up to modern standards. I'd say either leave them as Fausteses or pop in a Setekh (equally low poly, but slightly better textured, and at least it's Canon).
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Battuta: Just trying to familiarize people with the Imhotep who might not recognize it. :blah:
And BW: You haven't seen the most recent FSPort MediaVPs, have you?
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I have no problem with replacing one of the Terran science cruisers with an Imhotep. My logic is as follows. The Knossos is a great scientific discovery. It would make sense that the Vasudans would want to study the portal themselves. In addition, I'm guessing excluding the Vasudans from studying the portal wouldn't go over very well.
EDIT: It is possible that a Vasudan science cruiser was present studying the portal and was not shown in the briefing ANI.
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Yeah, Vasudans like their historical artifacts :P
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It would make sense. The science community is probably the most integrated segment GTVA society.
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If I voted to leave the Ravana as it was, I'm voting to leave this one as it is as well.
Not that I like it, we'll just have fewer problems that way IMO.
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Yeah I'm pretty much with Rodo.
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Hmm, this is interesting. I expected a resounding "no". It seems one sided, but I think this needs far more votes. My intentions are to go with the results of the poll.
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Basically my thoughts on this are :
- Zods are teh awesum.
- Imhotep is teh awesum.
- Retail ANIs have always seemed too Terran-centric for me, or at least too strongly sided : Terrans on one side, Zods on the other. The only time where Zods and Terrans are seen cooperating on an ANI are the Carthage and Dashor when they go happily pwn some Rakshasa.
- It makes sense from a fluff point of view, for all the reasons listed above.
- Changing a couple of Faustus in Imhotep in an ANI won't alter gameplay at all, hence the principles of the FSU remains safe.
- If people dislike Imhotep in this ANI, they can still modify their MVPs to use the retail ANI.
- Rule Of Cool.
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Use the Imhotep. It would not really change canon at all, as we know that both Vasudans and Terrans studied the portal. You are just adjusting the scene to show that.
Some may argue that since Fausti were the only ones in the vid, that the canon would be that only they scanned it, and that Terrans and Vasudan used the same ship. Those people suck. Beat that.
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fiiiiine maybe you're right
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I hit no because the Imhotep is a non canon ship and canon is supposed to be all that is holy around here
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I hit no because the Imhotep is a non canon ship and canon is supposed to be all that is holy around here
hm maybe YOU'RE right :wtf:
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Is this going into the retail campaign? I'm all for bigger and better, but does this just improve what's there or change it entirely?
We are talking about taking a ship that was not in retail and using it to replace one that was. This might be seen as an upgrade, but I see it as a change in artistic direction of the game. One might even be able to derive from that .ani that there were more Vasudan scientists/assets working on the project than there actually were. I say this not to go on some Anti-Vasudan rant but to be clear about the implications of this otherwise slight change.
If the point of FSU is to upgrade Freespace as it is, then no.
If the point of FSU is to change the design of the game to make it better, this works, but that's a slippery slope.
I'm going to vote no, because I feel that volition made something artistically distinct and that should be celebrated. Retail is retail. FSU thus far has done an excellent job walking this fine line. I'm all for awesomeness, but if you want to see the Imhotep, just make a new mod. TVWP is a great place for that ship.
I'm not going to puke my heart out if this goes through, but I think it's important to be aware of the change that's being made to the original design of Fs2; Perhaps in a small, but a very distinguishable way.
If however, the creative direction of FSU is in fact to radically change the game. I would be in favor of something more like ST:R for the retail campaign which distinctly separated itself from its 'flawed' cannon ancestor.
Sorry if this post sounds angry. I'm not angry :) MjnMixael on IRC encouraged me to voice my opinion. He seems very open to discussion.
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The Imhotep is not seen anywhere else in FS2. Not even the techroom. It could be a head-scratcher if a new person wonders what it is.
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Irrelevant. The builder ships seen in the Colossus cutscene aren't featured in the game and don't appear in the tech room, and noone complains about it.
MjnMixael: would it require too much work/time from you to make two different versions of the ANI ? Cause although I'm on the Imhotep side, I understand the concern of those on the other side.
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There are really two questions at work here, so let's be careful not oversimplify or merge them together.
1) Would it be appropriate to replace the Faustus with a Vasudan ship?
2) Would it be appropriate to replace the Faustus with a non-canon ship?
I'm alright replacing it with a Vasudan ship (thinking a Setekh), but I'm as of yet undecided as to whether I think it's appropriate to replace it with a non-canon Vasudan ship.
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Hmm, Rodo's right.
/me changes vote to "No."
But I really really want a version with the Imhotep. For... the Super Upgrade Project or something. :nervous:
How the heck does one change a vote?
Also my opinion is such that my answers to Solatar's questions will always be the same as each other.
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Can't on this poll. But I believe Qent and I switching for 'no' puts the nos ahead.
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This seems similar in some respects to the Vasuda Prime cutscene. That is quite awesome, but it has some elements that have confusingly been cited as canon.
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It's close enough so far that I'm nearly convinced to leave it as is.
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Nos are winning, 11-12.
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i think it'd improve the scenerie, so replace one Science with a Imhotep.
voted: YES
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Stick with the retail. Mods can change the game to make it more interesting but FSU should be more conservative. It's a matter of respect.
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Voted no. Fair enough if the Imhotep was a ship from retail, but since it isn't, I don't think it's a good idea.
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Voted yes.
From a purely stylistic viewpoint, one Faustus/one Imhotep looks more interesting than two Faustuses.
Also, it would be more representative of Terran/Vasudan collaboration, which is actually supposed to be happening around the time of FS2.
Thirdly, if the Imhotep is non-canon then we have NO canon Zod science cruiser, and... well, they kinda need one. Might as well make the unofficial one the official one. We can't replace canon but we can make improvements on it- that's what the FSU is for.
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How about FSU:WCITMIB?
Freespace Upgrade Project: We changed it to make it better.
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FSU is supposed to upgrade, not reimagine things.
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I feel artistic license is warranted here, like on the Hatshepsut.
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How is this comparable? The Hatshepsut got a pretty big makeover, but it was still a canon destroyer with the same guns. Everything about it is still canon. It's not like we took a new model, plunked it in, and called it a Hatchepsut.
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How is it not? The Hatshepsut has bits that aren't even on the original, like the exposed reactor on the back.
The CBani will get a pretty big makeover, but its still a CBani about science cruisers scanning the Knossos, its not like we designed a totally new CBani and stuck it in, and called it the same, we're just changing how something looks on it.
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We're putting a non-canon ship into canon material. That's the first time that's ever been done.
We do not want to have to start a list of 'material that's in canon sources that you shouldn't take as canon'. That would be dumb.
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I hate using (and people using) "don't want to set a precedent" as a reason not to do something, because its cowardly. :<
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I hate using (and people using) "don't want to set a precedent" as a reason not to do something, because its cowardly. :<
I hate people who use random words and phrases like 'it is cowardly' to make arguments because it is loathsome LOATHSOME
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I'd just leave it be... I don't like the idea of adding a new ship to the ani that isn't canon. I just like the idea the ani's are getting revamped, to look better, but still are the same (or the same as possible) as I saw them over 10 years ago.
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Or irresponsible, rather.
If something turns out to be a horrible idea, just got to know how to take it back...
I mean, we could always try putting something non-canon in, and seeing how it goes...
Also, don't we already have a (small) list of "material that's in canon sources that you shouldn't take as canon"?
Notably the Vasuda-bombing cutscene...
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The thing is you guys are voting to change something that originally was different.
I don't understand why should we change this one now and do nothing about those node inconsistencies in FS1 ani's (which if we start changing I'm sure will bring problems to HLP) or leaving the Ravana as the ship jumping in on the past ani.
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I don't like your notion of "trying" or experimenting with non-canon elements, just to see if they'll work or not. That's wasting mjn's time.
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Well, its up to him to decide if it is a waste of his time or not.
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Also, don't we already have a (small) list of "material that's in canon sources that you shouldn't take as canon"?
Notably the Vasuda-bombing cutscene...
But that's actually got a root in canon, unlike the Imohtep. It uses canon ships in a canon setting (namely, the glassing of Vasuda)
I voted 'no'.
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I would like to reiterate my earlier suggestion of the Setekh. It solves both problems, since it adds a Vasudan ship and stays entirely within canon. It doesn't even neccesarily need to be scanning the knossos with the green beams - just put it in the background somewhere to get the point across.
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Edit: I agree with the above post. If people really want to see vod ships, a canon ship is probably the best choice...
I a lot of people think that there would absolutely no Vasudans on Terran ships... Of course there were vods studying the portal, just not visible to you as a player.
I agree with making things more interesting, but in a way that's faithful to the original work... warts and all.
Anyway, just my two cents.
Off-topic: I really need to get around to playing ST:R one day. >_<
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We do not want to have to start a list of 'material that's in canon sources that you shouldn't take as canon'. That would be dumb.
Since when is FSU supposed to be canon ? :v: didn't make it. It can't be considered a canon source.
If you start considering FSU as canon, then let's consider STR and BP as canon too. That's not what we want, is it ?
FSU is a mod. The adjective "canon" should never refer to it.
EDIT : BTW I'm strongly for making two different versions of the ANI, the pure canon one ending up in the MVP, and the Imhotep one available for DL for anyone who wants to add it in.
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FSU contains graphical upgrades to canon material. It alters nothing meaningful in the canon.
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Canon. Yes, indeed.
So we should change all the recent HTL ships to "canon".
The new Sathanas, while awesome, doesn't look exactly like the retail one. It should have been upgraded in a way, where every greeble, has it's source on the canon texture. Same for the Hattie, and of course for all other ships and effects.
We want to stick with canon. Canon is the only way.
Seriously.
:rolleyes:
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Despite that our recent HTLs are great models, they are also recognized by the community as upgrades of the retail models.
Changing the ANIS is a different matter. It applies to the way Volition wanted to tell the story. It's much more radical than aesthetic changes to the original ships.
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There is an obvious difference between improving the physical appearance of canonical ships without altering their fluff or role, and introducing a new ship which has no canonical fluff or role.
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I voted no. MVP's are upgrades not replacements. There's no reason why alternates cant be made though :)
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Based on the poll and community response, I'm keeping it as a Faustus. Now... In the future when I don't have 60 other ANIs to complete, I'll probably make an alternate version with more Zod action.
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Those normal maps on the knossos look inverted. They're supposed to be grooves, not veiny ridges.
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Those normal maps on the knossos look inverted. They're supposed to be grooves, not veiny ridges.
No, that's just the diffuse map, it looks like that. Dates back all the way to the pre-normal map era; :v: probably tried to emulate a normal map effect with it.
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l77/Aardwolf001/Knossos%20Upgrade/original_texture_1.png)
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I dunno. If you look at the head of the small subunit, that looks a lot like normal map lighting, at least to me.
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Flipping the normal didn't change anything, it definitely has to do with the mapping.
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Can't you use HTL Knossos?
Scratch that, it seems that it's HTL, just the resulution is rather small and I didn't looked closely at it.
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I support making a better FS2 retail... i.e.; trying to interpret what :v: would have done if they had all the time and resources they wanted and the technology of today.
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I support that too, but I don't support doing it in the MVPs.
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So yeah. I agree with MjnMixael doing the pure Faustus ANI for the MVPs, and make one available for DL with the Imhotep later on. Should make everyone happy :)
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If you want a canon justification for there only being Terran ships in the .ani, keep in mind that Dr. Mina Hargrove was the one put in charge of the research team analyzing the Knossos. Being a Terran herself, she probably would have had Terran ships at her service, though I'm sure there were Vasudans on-board too.
In short, I voted "no," but it honestly wouldn't have bothered me all that much if the Imhotep (IIIIIM-HOOOO-TEEEEP) made it in there.
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If you want a canon justification for there only being Terran ships in the .ani, keep in mind that Dr. Mina Hargrove was the one put in charge of the research team analyzing the Knossos. Being a Terran herself, she probably would have had Terran ships at her service, though I'm sure there were Vasudans on-board too.
To be honest I would expect for there to be ships from both species on a project like this, especially given it's magnitude (both physically and in terms of its potential impact on subspace travel) with Hargrove nominated by the GTVA to lead the effort. I strongly suspect the only reason there are no Vasudan ships in the ani because :v: didn't have a Vasudan science vessel to use and creating one would have been a lot of effort to go to just for one ani.
End of the day though canon is canon and for the purposes of FSU the new sequence needs to be as close to canon as reasonable, though if mjn.mixael wants to do an alternative later on that players can use if they prefer that's up to him and from this thread there is defiantly a section of the community who feel it would enrich the experience.
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I would like to reiterate my earlier suggestion of the Setekh. It solves both problems, since it adds a Vasudan ship and stays entirely within canon. It doesn't even neccesarily need to be scanning the knossos with the green beams - just put it in the background somewhere to get the point across.[/bw]
One problem -- AWACS vessels weren't in service at that point in the campaign.
Off-topic: I really need to get around to playing ST:R one day. >_<
DO EET
there is defiantly a section of the community
i see what you did there
even if it was probably accidental
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One problem -- AWACS vessels weren't in service at that point in the campaign.
Citation needed.
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One problem -- AWACS vessels weren't in service at that point in the campaign.
Citation needed.
No, not really. It's self-evident. Or at least very heavily implied to be the case.
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I was under the impression that, much like the gas miners, the AWACS were re-purposed for the nebula environment, as opposed to specifically designed for it. I may as well be wrong, but that was why I asked for citation.
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I was under the impression that, much like the gas miners, the AWACS were re-purposed for the nebula environment, as opposed to specifically designed for it. I may as well be wrong, but that was why I asked for citation.
The gas miners were, not the AWACS.
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I don't want to offend anyone, but I find the narrow margin between those who want the Imhotep and those who don't want it to be weird. I thought most of us agreed on leaving things as they are, and work on graphical upgrades only.
Think about those who will be playing FreeSpace for the first time. They'll get confused.
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The first appearance of either a Charybdis or a Setekh is in the second SOC loop mission, where the Hamako is described as "the new AWACS ship". Also, there's this in the command briefing of sm2-01:
New Technologies
The Aquitaine will spearhead the next phase of our exploration and containment operation in the nebula. To help us achieve our objectives, the Alliance has developed new technologies, including Advanced Warning And Control Systems, or AWACS, and gas mining vessels to gather deuterium for our fusion reactors.
Prototypes of these new tactical weapons and fighters will be deployed pending successful completion of field tests. The 134th Barracudas will be conducting these combat exercises near the Gamma Draconis jump node.
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I choose to ignore that little snippet personally. It makes no sense to me that the GTVA didn't have some kind of gas miner prior to the nebula. The AWACS, maybe, but not the Charybdis. Especially since that'd meand that the GTVA designed and built 4 brand new capships between the beginning of the campaign and that point (Charybdis and Setekh, Zephyrus and Anukhet).
Not saying that should have any bearing on this debate (which I think mjn has already closed anyway) - it's just my personal view.
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The gas miners weren't new, they were simply adapted for nebular use (the Anuket at least was).
The GVG Anuket was originally designed for resource extraction in the volatile environment of gas giants. More recently, the Anuket has been modified for nebular operations.
The Charybdis and Setekh might have been in production in secret for quite a while before they were actually deployed, but there is no canon info to support this.
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Yeah, finished this ANI a long time ago.