Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: TrashMan on December 24, 2010, 02:29:29 pm
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A bit older model of mine that has been collecting dust on my HDD. If anyone wants it, here is it. The rar contains 3D max objects and a scene.
http://www.mediafire.com/?b1v3zvtt8z4upru
This is it's current state, after my lame texturing attempt:
(http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6223/demonni.th.jpg) (http://img515.imageshack.us/i/demonni.jpg/)
Note that the 3D max version in the rar is not textured at all.
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Texturing looks ok, it could be better but it isn't anything to be ashamed of really.
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Yeah, looks decent.
This render shows a bit more of the detail, i might work on it if i find the time.
(http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu258/_Angelus_/DT.png)
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Someone wanna start a thread in FSU?
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Too early, i wont be able to start on that until mid january. Unless, someone else wants to finish it.
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Yeah, looks decent.
This render shows a bit more of the detail, i might work on it if i find the time.
(http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu258/_Angelus_/DT.png)
Frankly, I was torn between smoothing it and keeping it blocky.
At this point, I'd say it needs a bit more smoothing. It looks better in the image-render than during real-time rendering
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Maybe this thread should be moved to FSU board.
That Demon looks great, I'd like to see it in next Mediavps.
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Honestly, I think it should be curved a bit more and perhaps more like this:
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/VA--Twisted_Infinities/Demon.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/VA--Twisted_Infinities/DemonShaded.jpg)
Though I think I'd go a bit farther than that, even, and change things a bit more (like the engines, to make a little more sense)
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I second the above post.
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I really hope this comes through. :)
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I agree with Hades.
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I disagree with Hades. I would prefer to see the outer shell smoothed a bit, but still substantially using the grey plating we have now. I really think the high-poly Demon's shell should match the MediaVPs Ravana's shell.
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Anything that doesn't set my computer on fire works for me. :)
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I disagree with Hades. I would prefer to see the outer shell smoothed a bit, but still substantially using the grey plating we have now. I really think the high-poly Demon's shell should match the MediaVPs Ravana's shell.
Oh! You mean that mediocre, almost impossible to see and what can barely be called detail? no, that's far worse than what I suggested. What I suggested would actually be adding detail, not a bunch of strips of pushed in mesh and ugly girder detail. It looks more like the creator were to lazy to actually come up with some actual, good looking detail.
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I guess we disagree on that. The original normal map for that grey texture was pretty much flat with grooves in it, like the Terran armor plating tiles, but I created the current wrinkled map as I preferred a relatively smooth and seamless shell.
It's my preference for more Vasudan-like armor than Terran-like armor.
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Are we talking about the same thing here? I'm taking about the actual model (with both of my posts) and you seem to be talking about the texture.
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I'm talking about the interpretation of the detail we see on the texture. You seem to want to pull it all apart into individual chunks, while I would like to see it all as one smooth shell.
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Yes, because just rounding it barely looks better, it'd be like just rounding off the hatshepsut and saying it's finished, instead of actually adding detail.
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+1 for haddes
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I agree with Hades. The smoothing and texture-detailing deal works for fighters and bombers but not for bigger ships.
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I would be interested on a compromise between smoothing and making it blocky. I feel like too much smoothing could "ruin" the original mesh.
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I agree with Hades. The smoothing and texture-detailing deal works for fighters and bombers but not for bigger ships.
That's what normal maps are for...
And..sez who?
Here's a big ship - tell me the smooth look doesn't work for it!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3066/2328345121_765ed89fe8_o.jpg
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I agree with Hades. The smoothing and texture-detailing deal works for fighters and bombers but not for bigger ships.
That's what normal maps are for...
And..sez who?
Here's a big ship - tell me the smooth look doesn't work for it!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3066/2328345121_765ed89fe8_o.jpg
One, normal mapping isn't sufficient for detail on a ship as large as this - for a fighter or bomber, yes, because they're extremely small and fast, and you, in game, do not normally see them in great detail - but on a ship this big, it's necessary to model in detail as it's both slow and large and you will almost always have a good look at them.
And I never said smoothing was bad - in fact, I even suggested smoothing and then adding detail.
If you just smooth it, you'll have it turn out like the Typhon turned out, almost visibly no different from the retail model, same as if you tile it (in which case it won't go into the MVPS) **Zacam: Really?
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I'm sure we can all agree that the Cain and Hatshepsut approaches were ideal...
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yep pretty much
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+1 for agreement.
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One, normal mapping isn't sufficient for detail on a ship as large as this - for a fighter or bomber, yes, because they're extremely small and fast, and you, in game, do not normally see them in great detail - but on a ship this big, it's necessary to model in detail as it's both slow and large and you will almost always have a good look at them.
That depends completely on your expectations. If you expect capships to have large greeble jutting out everywhere, then yes.
if not, then no.
I've seen capital ships where normal maps did a great job.
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On capships normal maps are less for small details and more for simulating "material" of the armor (for example, making a steel plating look more like steel).
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I agree with TrashMan on this. It all depends on the needed volume of the details. Even the Hatshepsut has big areas where normal maps alone are doing the job.
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I agree with TrashMan on this. It all depends on the needed volume of the details. Even the Hatshepsut has big areas where normal maps alone are doing the job.
Agrees also. Good mapping can look better than model details.
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Good mapping can only do so much to cover a bad model.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm56/HLPHades/demon.png)
Personally, they look too much like the same, and imagine them both textured? Even less of a difference then, and that's how we'll see this in game.
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The Sobek and Anuket are good examples of how not to do HTLs, if you ask me. The Cain and Hatshepsut HTLs took a lot of artistic liberty while staying true to the feel and spirit of the ships they were upgrading. I don't think anyone could possibly argue that the results were less than fantastic; and I can't comprehend why someone would want to deliberately avoid that.
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Suggestion: Let's use HTL Hatshepsut in the place of the Demon and this one instead of Hatshepsut. They would would look so different and FSU's mission would be accomplished. :pimp:
I agree though that Trashman's model needs more details, but balanced details.
In general, it's not to far from finished. Texturing it is a different mater.
The Sobek and Anuket are good examples of how not to do HTLs, if you ask me. The Cain and Hatshepsut HTLs took a lot of artistic liberty while staying true to the feel and spirit of the ships they were upgrading. I don't think anyone could possibly argue that the results were less than fantastic; and I can't comprehend why someone would want to deliberately avoid that.
I also agree with this :yes:
And i also believe that a HTL of a capital ship can't stay 100% true to the retail ships, as Volition would do them, because of the tiling and the lack of information caused by this. If we had that information, i would have no hesitation.
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I'm praying at my Hattie and Cain/Lilith shrines every day to give me luck in life. They are still the pinnacle of FSU's models (the other post 2007 HTLs are of course friggin' awesome too compared to their forerunners!)
That's the way new models should go.
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I just don't believe you can make something look as good as the Hatshepsut or Cain HTLs without taking a bit of artistic liberty and departing from what's simply on the texture. This becomes more true as the ship gets bigger. Take the Colossus for example, if you just modelled in the detail you'd get an unevenly detailed supersoaker that has a lot of armpit hair greebles in one or two places but just bare, flat tiling on giant stretches of the thing.
I was actually initially against the whole idea of changing things, but on seeing how great the Hatshepsut and Cain look, I just think that could never have happened if they'd just modelled in the texture detail and left it at that. Sometimes there's just not enough detail on the thing to extrapolate details from. I think some departure from the source material is needed, but to an extent that keeps the original ship's character, and doesn't just go crazy adding random greebles everywhere (which is what the HTL Orion did).
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I'm praying at my Hattie and Cain/Lilith shrines every day to give me luck in life. They are still the pinnacle of FSU's models (the other post 2007 HTLs are of course friggin' awesome too compared to their forerunners!)
That's the way new models should go.
Don't forget the new Typhon and Boadicea by the same person as the Hattie. ;)
I just don't believe you can make something look as good as the Hatshepsut or Cain HTLs without taking a bit of artistic liberty and departing from what's simply on the texture. This becomes more true as the ship gets bigger. Take the Colossus for example, if you just modelled in the detail you'd get an unevenly detailed supersoaker that has a lot of armpit hair greebles in one or two places but just bare, flat tiling on giant stretches of the thing.
I was actually initially against the whole idea of changing things, but on seeing how great the Hatshepsut and Cain look, I just think that could never have happened if they'd just modelled in the texture detail and left it at that. Sometimes there's just not enough detail on the thing to extrapolate details from. I think some departure from the source material is needed, but to an extent that keeps the original ship's character, and doesn't just go crazy adding random greebles everywhere (which is what the HTL Orion did).
Same here, and I agree with both posts.
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....Sometimes there's just not enough detail on the thing to extrapolate details from. I think some departure from the source material is needed, but to an extent that keeps the original ship's character, and doesn't just go crazy adding random greebles everywhere (which is what the HTL Orion did).
Agreed again. :yes:
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Agree with the previous three posts.
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The Sobek and Anuket are good examples of how not to do HTLs, if you ask me. The Cain and Hatshepsut HTLs took a lot of artistic liberty while staying true to the feel and spirit of the ships they were upgrading. I don't think anyone could possibly argue that the results were less than fantastic; and I can't comprehend why someone would want to deliberately avoid that.
Tastes.
Artistic liberty you might take for great I might think sucks. And vice-versa.
It also depends on what you consider to be the core aspects of the ship you're "upgrading". For example, the Hahsephut model is great, but the Typhon concept by the same maker? I don't like it at all. Why? Because it doesn't look like a typhon to me anymore.
Now, the question is - what makes the demon, a demon?
Should it retain some harder, more agressive edges OR should it be curved and smoothed?
Should it's armor be greebled up to whazoo OR should it look liek one massive, monolithic chunk?
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The Typhon by ragingloli is no concept, it'll be going into the MVPs.
after i or somebody else finishes the textures....
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Ragingloli's Typhon is very good and does feel like a Typhon.
It's the Esarai's Typhon that doesn't.
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Personally, TrashMan, I like your Demon model. It might need more details in certain areas, but in general it stays true to form. I'd need to take a look at the actual model in comparison to the original model (in my program) to make a more detailed analysis, but making sure the plating is properly aligned, then adding a few more details here and there would go a long way.
In general, the aesthetic the model conveys fits in well with both FS1 and FS2 Shivan ships.
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Alright people, calm down or the thread gets locked.
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I've noticed that texturing seems to make even really good models appear to be less.. good. Somehow suggesting detail through maps blocks out the actual detail of the model.
In the case of your model I especially like the "head" of your Demon, Trashman. It has some nice lines in it, though they could be accentuated a bit more. I think the biggest problem with your Demon is that the overall shape is too similar to the original Demon. Adding detail won't solve the problem, obviously. Little details will do nothing to the shape, and the texture will just negate them anyways. I feel the best solution would be to modify the entire shape, so that it's set apart from the original. Do more of what you did on the "head", just do it all over ship.
Of course, the newest Cain and Hatsheput seem to be exceptions to the idea that textures detract from the geometry. If anything, they've got too much detail, to the detriment of the model. They feel distinctly "michelin man"-ish. Like they were inflated with air. A blow-up Cain, if you will.
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I can barely tell where the extra polies went in the body. I also think you need to imagine some details in there. Do something creative with the plate overlaps, put probably not as quiltwork insane as Hades' paint sketchup looks like. Also, an AO bake would help a ton with adding some depth if we're going to stick with tiling that grey texture over most of everything. Thematically, that kinda makes sense as it'll look related to the Ravana.
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Now, the question is - what makes the demon, a demon?
Should it retain some harder, more agressive edges OR should it be curved and smoothed?
Should it's armor be greebled up to whazoo OR should it look liek one massive, monolithic chunk?
Answer these questions and we'll get some idea as to how we want to take the Demon if you don't like this on. Especially if you want to give it more "artistic liberty"...
***** and scream about adding your beloved "artistic liberty" as you want...
The rear arch and the head of this model look pretty good, its just the main body that seems to be missing something, but I don't think that the armor greebles should be modelled in, the normal maps for the texture do that job pretty well.
The neck is also a place where there's some room for creativity.
Yeah, so I think this one's on kinda the right track, just not really done yet.
Decide on how it should look first, then talk about how we get there. Throwing around vague terms like adding creative liberty is useless, and meaningless.
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Now, the question is - what makes the demon, a demon?
Should it retain some harder, more agressive edges OR should it be curved and smoothed?
Should it's armor be greebled up to whazoo OR should it look liek one massive, monolithic chunk?
Answer these questions and we'll get some idea as to how we want to take the Demon if you don't like this on. Especially if you want to give it more "artistic liberty"...
***** and scream about adding your beloved "artistic liberty" as you want...
Well that's for the modeller to decide. People can give feedback while the model progresses, which is how it worked with the Hat and Cain.
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So who is the modeller?
Doesn't look like TrashMan wants to keep working on it (or has time to).
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So who is the modeller?
Doesn't look like TrashMan wants to keep working on it (or has time to).
Whoever decides to take it up.
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This model has the basis for promise. I can approve of the fact that it retains much about the original, it gives a good basic starting point at the very least.
As for maps vs mesh, Texturing can be handled many different ways. Some methods will convey detail, others will obscure it.
In the end, it come down to the fact that there are very few people that work on FreeSpace models of any sort (by comparison of TCs or other mods) that virtually any thing can be an improvement, even this model. If tetxtured better than the existing model, while it may not make for the same uberfication as the Hatshepsut, it will at least give us something more optimized and usable that what we currently have.
And at the end of the day, the important question isn't "does it have moar greebles than the last one" but "is it usable and at least aesthetically meaningful enough to warrant its use".
Without knowing anything about it's geometry as I haven't opened it, aside from needing some more refinements in the texturing space, I call the mesh itself a good start and I look forward to seeing how it progresses, with full credits if/when it goes in.
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So who is the modeller?
Doesn't look like TrashMan wants to keep working on it (or has time to).
I'd probably re-do the central body if I were to start it up again. Maybe make the rear with a different method.
Remember, this is an older model, so it's not quite my best work.
And thing with textures is..what kind of texture it is? Some just don't work well for conveying detail. Some just don't look good at all. The reason I quit making the demon when I first tried was because texturing the rear with the stock texture proved impossible. It was horribly streched and looked...fugly.
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If you(or anyone else) do work on it again, I think it would be a good thing to add some details on the missile launchers.
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Wait a bit people, this is under the patronage of the highest powers of the FSU :shaking:
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And thing with textures is..what kind of texture it is? Some just don't work well for conveying detail. Some just don't look good at all. The reason I quit making the demon when I first tried was because texturing the rear with the stock texture proved impossible. It was horribly streched and looked...fugly.
I'd think it'd be best to do a full (or at the very very very least partial like the Ravana's) UVmap of the whole thing then paint on it using the retail textures as a base. That way you can add detail to the texture where needed.
Attempting to work with just the stock tiles are kinda an excercise in futility.
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inb4tilingsucks
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Is it just me, or is there a lot of yelling about an abandoned model that so far nobody - Trashman included - has suggested they will pick up and carry through to the final stages? Maybe wait until someone actually plans to use this before you dogpile it?
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As said before, this model is under the patronage of the highest powers of the FSU . It's not abandoned anymore and you'll see improvements to it soon.
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I'd think it'd be best to do a full (or at the very very very least partial like the Ravana's) UVmap of the whole thing then paint on it using the retail textures as a base. That way you can add detail to the texture where needed.
Attempting to work with just the stock tiles are kinda an excercise in futility.
It will need a custom texture....trust me on that.