Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: papachulo10 on May 02, 2002, 05:25:00 pm
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Do you think by any chance that the GTVA would consider building another Colossus? If so what changes and what would you name it? I love the name Agamemnon (you guys just gotta wonder where i got that one lol!)
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A lot of people hate the colossus but I don`t think it's as bad as everyone makes out.
The original colossus took too long to build. 20 years is far too long to build a ship like that. However the colossus was built in secret and no doubt required a lot of research. Neither the Terrans or Vasudans had ever built a ship that large. It's a reasonable bet that it needed a new kind of reactor or jump engine. If one of these couldn`t be built using present technology it is posssible that the colossus project got delayed for 5 or even 10 years while the problem was sorted (thereby accounting for the colossus' ridiculous build time).
Although ineffective against shivan juggernauts the colossus is a powerful ship. Remember that the colossus and it's battlegroup broke the back of the NTF in a very short amount of time (something the GTVA had failed to do for 18 months).
Secondly the colossus is a powerful figurehead regardless of it's military might. Rebels would surrender rather than face it. Friendly ships would rally round it if a battle went badly.
Whether the GTVA would build another depends on the build time. Compare the colossus with the equivalent power in destroyers. Suppose the colossus is as powerful as 3 destroyers (haven't tested it yet. ) then if it longer to build than 3 destroyers it isn`t worth it (building 3 destroyers gives you more options, you can split them up or send them in as a task force).
If the colossus can be built in the same time as the equivalent power in destroyers the GTVA would probably build one. Even though less flexable than a group of destroyers the morale boost and political value would make it worth building.
If the colossus can be build in less time than the equivalent then the GTVA would probably commission 2 or 3 (so as to not have all their eggs in one basket).
The last option is that there is already a second half built colossus. The GTVA might have decided to build more than one anyway. Even if the colossus is less powerful than expected it's probably worth a year or two's work to finish it rather than go to the effort of junking it.
Anyway. Enough of defending everyones favourite punchbag. I'll let the flamers have their turn ;)
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my views:
Reasons why the Colossus sucked the big one:
1. big
2. slow
3. clumsy
4. rediculously little firepower for its size and crew
5. turns funny and wacks everything infront of it; doesnt even inter hyperspace right
Reasons why it was good:
1. symbol of GTVA power (and ego)
2. more power than any other GTVA vessel, more than suited to taking on conventional Shivan warships.
3. bigass fighter complement
What would be better strategically
1. 5 Orion destroyers because they have more firepower, less crew, and are far more maneuverable.
2. 40 Aoelus cruisers because they have more firepower still and far less crew; not to mention a lot more maneuverablitiy.
in a nutshell, the Colossus makes for a better symbol than it does a warship.
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The Colossus actually only had 30,000 crew. 5 Orions would have 50,000 or thereabouts.
But you point still stands. Super-ships in that sense are something reserved for Shivans. Why try and beat them at their own game? The other thing to say for having 5 destroyers is that when one is destroyed, you still have the firepower of 4 remaining. Although you can turn that around and say it's firing with all guns until the moment it's destroyed, meaning there is more firepower overall with a Colossus.
BTW, I did a test. The Colossus is more than capable of taking on 5 Orions. :p
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Originally posted by LtNarol
in a nutshell, the Colossus makes for a better symbol than it does a warship.
I definately wouldn`t agree with that.
As I said the colossus ended the NTF rebellion. You think it did that by just looking good? The colossus destroyed the Repulse and was barely scratched. In fact the only ships able to do any appreciable damage the colossus were the two sathanas'
As kellan said the colossus can take on 5 orions. If it can be built for less that makes it worth building.
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Why does every think the Colossus was built in secret? A project like that was surely inspire pride, resasurence about that the GTVA could counter the Shivans if they returned etc etc. This is the sort of information that I would want Joe Public to know. Okay the cutscene says the following information is 'Level Rho', but that could just mean the information on weapon systems, fighter complement and the like.
One advantage that a supercap has it that's its 'bomber-proof'. Indervial weapon turrets are vunrable, but only other large ships are capable of destroying it, unless they wish to do a Hades on it.
Also the Colossus was designed to counter Demons, Lucifers, Cains, Lilths and other as yet unknown Shivan cruisers and destroyers. That the Shivans would have at least 80 ships of comparible size might not have occured to them. Also, they might assume that the Shivans would not have beam weaponay (except for the Lucifer) so the Col would be able to taken them down quickly with the minium of damage.
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Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
Why does every think the Colossus was built in secret?
The cutscene basically explains as much. It goes on about how khonsu (sp?) came up with the idea and announced it to the GTVA.
Secondly when it first appears command introduce you to it. Would they really do that if it was a well known project?
Everything points to the colossus' first appearance in the game being the first time that everyone had heard of it.
Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
One advantage that a supercap has it that's its 'bomber-proof'. Indervial weapon turrets are vunrable, but only other large ships are capable of destroying it, unless they wish to do a Hades on it.
Since the colossus is in one place it's easier to defend than several destroyers (which would be spread out over a wider area). That makes it even harder to kill using bombers.
I think the big problem with the colossus is that there are no missions where we really saw it in action. In the first mission it appears it takes out a single deimos. In the mission where it gaurds the knossos it gets sabotaged and is unable to attack the Iceni and in the final mission it's already disabled and unable to launch fighters.
We never got to see the colossus with the kid gloves off so a lot of people assume that it's weaker than it actually is.
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second colossus could be too old in 20 years
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While the Colossus did die somewhat easily when facing a fully armed Sathanas, I wonder how things would have gone had there been more than one Colossus-class vessel. One of the reasons the Colossus did die was because it was always made a target. The NTF targeted it because it was new, big, a symbol of pride and GTVA dominance. It faced its fair share of battles because it was the biggest thing the GTVA had, so if they came across a heavy situation, they sent it in.
Now, if there were more than one super large vessel, they could be spread around. It would be a lot harder to sabotage several Colossus vessels, if one gets heavily damaged in a fight another one can be called in from elsewhere. No more having to carry battle damage that would take months to repair into one fight after another. Add to that the fact that a few Colossi in battle together would be quite a mighty force for even the Shivans to contend with.
Of course, there would be the problem of obtaining enough resources to build half a dozen of them. It probably wouldn't take 20 years to build another since you've already got the base plans to work from, so that could be one plus. But as a lot of people mention, it would be possible to build half a dozen destroyer class vessels instead.
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The Colossus was built to counter the Shivan superdestroyer Lucifer, and was later on used to defeat the NTF. I for one, do not believe that the GTVA would create another one, after seeing what the Sathanas can do (btw, whats with the plural 'sathanii'), they would bother to make another. It would be wiser to consider other technologies (a dreadnought perhaps, or better stationary beam weapons, a la Mjolnir, which were VERY powerful, even for Shivan standards), than rebuilding something completely useless against a Sathanas.
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I think the GTVA, while not necessarily building another Colossus would embark on another giant ship building project. However the next time I reckon they would make their new juggernaut more of a fortress then the Colossus was - in particular they would probably focus on ablative armor against beams (to counter sathanas ability for damage) and focussing more Colossus beams towards its front so it has a better chance of taking on a Sath. and winning. The way I'd do it would have beam groups, so I can either power up an even distribution of beams or power up a giant cluster at the front. I think the GTVA would also probably omit putting laser turrets on the ship (because they're amazingly useless - long range flak guns all the way).
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karajorma basically summed up for thoughts on the subject. ;)
Regarding the firepower of the Colossus, remember that its purpose was to take down groups of smaller ships; as far the designers knew, it completely dwarfed every other ship in existence, and there was no point in mounting all of the weapons in the front since it would be able to take down any other thing with just a couple of beam cannons. The existence of the Sathanas was not known until after the Colossus had already been deployed in the field.
As with UnknownPlayer, I also think that they will build some sort of super-warship once again in the future, because whatever the Colossus' flaws, it did take down at least three major NTF destroyers (along with at least 20 corvettes and cruisers) as well as a Sathanas juggernaut. I would say that the Colossus and its fleet effectively won the NTF war; aside from the 13th Battle Group which secured Sirius (and even then, on the second try), no other GTVA unit comes even close to matching the amount of damage the superdestroyer dished out against the NTF. (heck, it probably did more damage as all the other units combined) It also boosted popular morale immensely, an absolute necessity during any war.
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Originally posted by CP5670
It also boosted popular morale immensely, an absolute necessity during any war.
So it did make a good symbol.
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But also a good warship. :D
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I agree with Kellan. If the GTVA were to build another super-ship, then its focus should be on firepower. Although the sath won becuase it had more powerfull beams, it had all 4 of tem facing the same way. This effectivly made it 4 times more powerfull.
Plus another thing - sure the Collosus was nice to look at, but it was a bit of a waste of 30000 people. How about if those crew were converted into thirty thousand, Helios armed Ursa bombers:devilidea
So maybee not 30000, since they would need support crews and carrier ships to live on, but thats still a hell of a lot of bombers, 2 or 3 good bomber pilots can take down an Orion.
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The one thing that really, really sucked about the Colossus in my opinion was that dinky little fighterbay; how can they launch all those 60 wings through that little triangular hole when it can barely fit even the smaller ships one at a time... :p
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Originally posted by beatspete
Plus another thing - sure the Collosus was nice to look at, but it was a bit of a waste of 30000 people. How about if those crew were converted into thirty thousand, Helios armed Ursa bombers:devilidea
So maybee not 30000, since they would need support crews and carrier ships to live on, but thats still a hell of a lot of bombers, 2 or 3 good bomber pilots can take down an Orion.
Taking your logic, why doesn't the US Navy just take it's crew of 6000 per carrier and convert them into pilots of PGM-armed F/A-18Es? Of course, they would need support and carrier ships to live on, but that's still a hell of a lot of fighter-bombers.
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I doubt the creators of the Colossus thought that it would need to scramble all of it's wings at the same time.
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i thought the colossus had a far larger crew than 30,000; but even so, it is still an incredably clumsy box in space if you ask me. I would much rather prefer a few wings of bombers.
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well now they know better,
now think of a C with four BFGreens mounted to the front
but I think the Golgotha like ships are going to be the next step, not as big a pain in the ass to make, big ass punch, you send in a few of them the Sathanas won't get of more than one voly of beams before it gets vaped.
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That's not to say the Golgotha is invincible. It can't actually destroy a Sathanas in a head-on battle, because the BFReds come into range before it can fire its third, killing shot. (This is assuming you're just beam-freeing the ships and so normal ranges apply, and the Sathanas is moving towards the Golgotha).
That said, it can punch a great big hole in any destroyer around. And if there was more than one Golgotha class destroyer... :devilidea
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keep in mind that the golgotha can fire a shot, turn tail and run while it recharges its meson beam, turn back around and fire again, run away until it recharges for a second time, then fire its third shot to finish off the Sathanas.
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Originally posted by LtNarol
keep in mind that the golgotha can fire a shot, turn tail and run while it recharges its meson beam, turn back around and fire again, run away until it recharges for a second time, then fire its third shot to finish off the Sathanas.
I doubt any destroyer could turn around and get away quick enough to prevent the bfreds from frying its ass. Thats just in terms of normal destroyers, as this golgotha (which i have never seen before) could have a max speed of like 50m/s and a quick rotation time. But if that were so than it would totally defeat the idea of giant capital ships.
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well, that depends on the range of the Golgotha's main beam, if it can hit the Sathanas at say, 9 klicks, then it has plenty of time to run before the Sathanas can come into range with its guns. It can repeat this as often as necessary.
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*cough*normal meson attacks*cough*
Just warp in some Mesons next to the Sath. KABOOOOM!
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Possibly, but that would still be cutting it. If the Golgotha is as big as the colossus or bigger, it wouldn't be able to turn its entire mass and accelerate away. The Sathanas has a cruising speed of 15 m/s, so they would reach the golgotha in time
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lol, the Golgotha is a superdestroyer, measuring somewhere around 3 klicks. Its no where near the length of the Colossus. And just about everything from corvette on up has a cruising speed of 15ms. Thats relatively slow in FS2.
EDIT: make that 3.8 klicks
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Originally posted by Stunaep
(btw, whats with the plural 'sathanii')
Colossus is a direct transliteration from Latin into English and forms its plural after Latin grammatical rules, changing the -us suffix to an -i. Compare radius, radii.
Sathanas is a variant of the Greek Satanas, which forms its plural by changing the -as to an -es. However, imported foreign words are often Anglicised for use in our tongue, especially those that are less common. Thus, both Sathanes and the humbler Sathanases can be considered correct.
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Originally posted by an0n
*cough*normal meson attacks*cough*
Just warp in some Mesons next to the Sath. KABOOOOM!
I wouldn't bet on that. Even though the Sathanas has no uber-big firepower anywhere else, than the tip of its beams, it still packs enough to destroy the mesons before they explode.
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Short of another super destroyer, I say bar even building bombers and just mass produce Loki's loaded with Helios warheads. Stick an autopilot in and there are your long range missiles for you.
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for the meson bombs, the Sathanas has a decent warmup time for its beams, the meson warhead has plenty of time to detonate. Also keep in mind that the bomb can warpin besides the sathanas :D.
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Actualling, I was thinking of flak guns, laser turrets.. ok maybe not laser turrets, but flak and AAA can put an end to a Meson warhead pretty fast. Not to mention any Shivan fighter
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a meson warhead detonates when you give the command, in other words, as soon as it warps in, it can go boom. The beams need to charge, the flak needs to get there, and fighters have to hit it many times.
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Originally posted by Tachnyrus
Taking your logic, why doesn't the US Navy just take it's crew of 6000 per carrier and convert them into pilots of PGM-armed F/A-18Es? Of course, they would need support and carrier ships to live on, but that's still a hell of a lot of fighter-bombers.
Didnt i mention that in "So maybee not 30000, since they would need support crews and carrier ships to live on"?
Thinking about this more in depth, if were were to have, say 3 large carriers storing our bombers. Each would need about 3000 crew to fly the carrier, maintain it and the bombers, and look after the pilots, that still leaves 21000 people. Building individual bombers would probably cost more than one huge ship, and helios warheads are expensive, and the bomber pilots would need training and escort wings, so lets cut this number down to about 8000 bomber pilots.
This still leaves u with 100 bombers per sathanas, more than enough i think.
I was actually trying out a few sathanas attacks myself today. I put 2 destroyers, 2 corvetes, and 5 crusiers to attack the sathanas. I put them round the back to avoid the main beams which even an idiot would do. Sure they destroyed the sathanas eventually, but it took ages. From this the Collosus doesnt seem so bad. It was a bit useless, but it was still the only thing with BF Greens on it, and they help a hell of a lot.
pete
Oh and warping in meson bombs probably would be as effective as u think. I remember they tried it in derelict and it took down just 1 Cain.
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I would think warping messon bombs would be a good application of the SSM, if it would work. That way you are not actually placing crew at risk in delivering the payload. And don't underestimate a Messon bomb; they do at least 333,334 damage points (three took down a 1,000,000hp knossos, after all)
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5 destroyers will take down a Sathanas fast enough, 12 corvettes will do it even faster.
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Originally posted by X-Files Addict
The Sathanas has a cruising speed of 15 m/s
The Sathanas is actually pretty fast, it goes 25m/s. :)
Originally posted by StratComm
And don't underestimate a Messon bomb; they do at least 333,334 damage points (three took down a 1,000,000hp knossos, after all)
The Knossos was self-destructed. The Meson bomb does actually "only" 50,000 damage. :)
But I guess that destroying a Sathanas with meson bombs wouldn't be too hard, at least if they could make a bit more powerful meson bombs. :)
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The Colossus CAN destroy a Sathanas on its own. They just have to plan their attack and they shouldn't wait for it to jump in.
Example : Do you remember the jump of the Iceni through the Knossos. They jumped in right in front of the Knossos and jumped out. And even if the Col wasn't sabotaged they wouldn't been able to destroy the Iceni because they jumped out so fast. Smart and stategical thinking.
What i'm trying to say is that if the Col would hide (in an asteroid field perhaps or in another system) and wait for the Sathanas to jump in and jumps in behind the Sathanas they could've destroyed it because they already knew the main beams were on the front. They'd only have to destroy the engines and they'd have an immobile sathanas unable to turn. Thus unable to use its main beams.
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I think that was one of the let downs of FS2, there was no strategy, at least with command and capital ships. The most complex strategies i could think of was the level with the mjolnir's (kings gambit maybe?) and the one where u have to damge the two fenris cruisers so the repulse jumps in. But even those weren't really strategic. Command makes so many stupid decisoins like jumping the phoenicia right in front of the first Sathanas. Was that supossed to be thier best effort to "hold the sathanas off" or was command just trying to make a road block? IMHO, either way it was moronic. And in "their finest hour" leaving the Colossus undefended (granted its commands most powerful ship but it was crippled beyond capable battle duty). Like Celestial said, i think the only one who had any strateic wits about him was Bosch.
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Originally posted by Kellan
Why try and beat them at their own game?
We vanquished the Shivans in the Great War, but the hard questions remain: How would we confront the threat of future invasion? The Shivans might return at any time, any place and without warning. How would be fight the next threat to the very existence of our species?
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The problem with the campaign strategy was simple: there was no strategy. One to one, any FS2 terran capship is more than a match for its shivan counterpart if they are fighting broadside (except possible cruisers; haven't tested Aeolus/Rakshasa and the Lilith is stupidly powerful for its size), but they are hopelessly outmatched from the front. The colossus is actually better armed than the Sathanas (if the firing delays were better matched), but all of its firepower is spread along parts of the ship where it is never used. Terran strategy should consist more of flanking manuvers to exploit the known shivan weaknesses rather than simply placng ships in their path to get destroyed. And one more question: why are the juggernauts faster than the smaller, less massive destroyers? Given that FS2 has no physics, there is no reason why a Hecate with all of its engine power could not at least properly match a clumsy and bulky sathanas in speed.
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In terms of the Freespace World, the Shivans have much better technology than the Terrans. The reactor(s) on the Sathanas is alot more powerful than anything the Terrans have, hence explaining the speed issue. The broadside attack problem is that alot of stupid people are admirals and alot of smart people are flying hercs and erinyi.
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If you run the numbers correctly, the Collossus actually has more collective firepower than a Sathanas.
It is because the Sathanas has it's primary beams all mounted in a forward firing arc compared to the multi-directional firing arc of the Collossus. There is also the fire times to consider, the Sathanas's main beams re-fire alot fast than those on the Collossus.
Though I have to agree that the construction time of the Collossus is just ridiculous. I can understand if it was delayed due to technological developments specifically for the project, but theres no way conventional construction like that would take twenty years, even is a good number of the parts where being specially manufactured (such as 20 individual pressed and treated layers of molybduram armour sheathing).
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Originally posted by elorran
[B... Though I have to agree that the construction time of the Collossus is just ridiculous. I can understand if it was delayed due to technological developments specifically for the project, but theres no way conventional construction like that would take twenty years, even is a good number of the parts where being specially manufactured (such as 20 individual pressed and treated layers of molybduram armour sheathing). [/B]
A war with the NTF, the mop up of the HOL, and the Hades Rebellion probably all interfered with the Col's construction.
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Perhaps, but even events like that shouldn't upset very much.
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During those wars the GTVA probably increased production rates on warships. Workers would have been drawn away from the Col.
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THe Collossus goes 25 m/s as well. THe Sathanas and Collossus go faster than destroyers and corvettes.
IMO, the capsjips in Freespace should go twice or three times faster than theri current speed
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I would also have liked to see some more strategic decisions made during the campaign where capital ship battles are concerned; the only one I remember is in sm1-10, where they had a specific plan to down the Repulse.
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For anyone who's played Rebel's Bluff, there's some good strategy right there. Goes to show how good the NTF are hehe...
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Another reason why the GTVA would most likely not waste money on another Colossus in the near future, would be that they HAVE another grand project to develop - the Delta Serpentis - Solaris Knossos device. I imagine it would require quite a bit of resources, research and money.
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If I were them I'd combine the two - create a huge ship Knossos capabilities, much more useful and more powerful then anything the Shivans thusfar have.
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Originally posted by GrandAdmiralAbaht
THe Collossus goes 25 m/s as well. THe Sathanas and Collossus go faster than destroyers and corvettes.
IMO, the capsjips in Freespace should go twice or three times faster than theri current speed
The corvettes go actually 30m/s, but it Colossus and Sathans go faster than most cruisers. That's pretty odd.
Also, if they would go three times faster than now, and fighters wouldn't, they would go as fast as fighters. :p But of course fighters should go faster, too, then. ;)
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Originally posted by Redfang
Also, if they would go three times faster than now, and fighters wouldn't, they would go as fast as fighters. :p But of course fighters should go faster, too, then. ;)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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The cruiser speeds are a bit varied; the Leviathan goes at an anemic 10m/s while the Mentu can reach 35m/s. :p
For anyone who's played Rebel's Bluff, there's some good strategy right there. Goes to show how good the NTF are hehe...
bah, that shows how stupid both sides are, not how smart the NTF is. :p The NTF is stupid for scheduling a meeting in some remote corner system, and one which they would need to pass through major GTVA systems to get to, while the GTVA is stupid for not taking advantage of this and ambushing the ships in Beta Aquilae or something. :p (and why are some ship names misspelled? :p :D)
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I think that if you speed everything up, the game would become unmanageable - it'd seem too fast, and you'd go crazy. Or am I being stupid, and should the speed all be relative? :confused:
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I think that if you speed everything up, the game would become unmanageable - it'd seem too fast, and you'd go crazy. Or am I being stupid, and should the speed all be relative?
Yeah i agree, it wouldn't be very fun if we were all trying to keep from hitting each other in a dog fight flying at 160 m/s
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It would get managable over time.
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Well i guess if everything was flying that fast it would but then we would be facing the same dillemma because it wouldn't make a difference
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Yes, a vicous never ending cycle.
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Personally i don't mind the freespace ships being slow, they are easier to pilot. Plus if they went faster then the game would loose all impresion of scale. Imagine if it only took you 1 second to fly along the collosus, it would remove the grand scale of a battle.
I think corvetes are faster than terran cruisers since they are newer.
Plus when you can do subspace jumps, why would cap ships need to travel that fast anyway? Sure they could go 30000 miles an hour if they had huge rocket engines on them, but the amount of fuel needed would be impractical.
pete
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Originally posted by beatspete
I think corvetes are faster than terran cruisers since they are newer.
Cruisers get refitted with new engines.
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Originally posted by Stunaep
Delta Serpentis - Solaris
WTF? Solaris?
Its Sol. :p
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Originally posted by TheCelestialOne
Cruisers get refitted with new engines.
There IS a limit to refitting. You can't build a ferrari out of a wolkswagen.
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But beatspete thinks that corvettes ARE faster than older cruisers. And I think that is not true at all.
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Well, that is true if you only take the FS1 cruisers.
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Most of the cruisers used in FS1 were also used in FS2, with the same speeds.
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Actually, the Fenris and Deimos go about 30 m.p.s, though I think the Deimos might be able to go a little faster......
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Here are the speeds:
Fenris: 20
Leviathan: 10
Aeolus: 30
Aten: 25
Mentu: 35
Cain: 30
Lilith: 20
Rakshasa: 20
Deimos: 30
Sobek: 30
Moloch: 30
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Originally posted by beatspete
Plus another thing - sure the Collosus was nice to look at, but it was a bit of a waste of 30000 people. How about if those crew were converted into thirty thousand, Helios armed Ursa bombers:devilidea
So maybee not 30000, since they would need support crews and carrier ships to live on, but thats still a hell of a lot of bombers, 2 or 3 good bomber pilots can take down an Orion.
Yarp, your right about the massive firepower of 30,000 ursa bombers compared to one collosus, but the problem is 30,000 bombers could easily be taken out by large amounts of fighters and cruisers, so they don't have much staying power. The Collosus would probably be the best ship in the game for just holding its ground in whatever system and stopping the enemy from launching a counterstrike. Being six kilometers long, It covers a relatively large amount of the battle area and has weapons to fire from all angles, and enemy ships smaller than cruisers can barely make a dent on it.
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Only thing smaller than cruisers are fighters and bombers. Bombers can dent a colossus.
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30 000 Ursas would get shot down, they would need a LOT more than 30 000 people for maintenance, and in general, the Colossus worked effectively against the NTF.
If I were them I'd combine the two - create a huge ship Knossos capabilities, much more useful and more powerful then anything the Shivans thusfar have.
Personally I think, that the GTVA would require a lot of years for research to make something of that scale. Since their top priority is reestablishing the Sol jump node, they would either go to Knossos project, maybe building a new (better) juggernaught at the same time.
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ok, 1 good Ursa pilot can take out an Orion, done it before, its even easier in a Sekhmet (that baby is fast for a bomber). Lets say instead of the Colossus we went with 50 wings of Myrmidons, thats 200 fighters. Armed with Helios in their 3rd banks, each Myrmidon only needs to get off 1 bomb that actually hits. Since the 3rd bank can support 2 helios bombs, each fighter can get off 2 bombs on their first run. Now, of course, some will get shot down, but Myrmidons are fast, maneuverable, and have decent agility, atleast 100 would get within 400 meters of their target, from which point their bombs are just about gauranteed to hit. Likewise, it only takes 6 good Myrmidon pilots to wipe out any conventional destroyer.
The Colossus woulda made for a better carrier than a frontline weapon.
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I havent directly attacked a collosus, but i made 48 bombers and a sathanas in FRED then ordered them to attack. It was quite a site, dozens of helios warheads flying towards the sath. Some got shot down, but after the first lot hit, the sath was down to about 80% hull.
The problem came later when some of our bombers had been shot down, and there was only 1 support ship to rearm the rest, so it was a bit slow towards the end.
Plus it was on easy mode :doh:
Anyway, i'll try a collosus over the next few days.
pete
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Originally posted by LtNarol
ok, 1 good Ursa pilot can take out an Orion, done it before, its even easier in a Sekhmet (that baby is fast for a bomber). Lets say instead of the Colossus we went with 50 wings of Myrmidons, thats 200 fighters. Armed with Helios in their 3rd banks, each Myrmidon only needs to get off 1 bomb that actually hits. Since the 3rd bank can support 2 helios bombs, each fighter can get off 2 bombs on their first run. Now, of course, some will get shot down, but Myrmidons are fast, maneuverable, and have decent agility, atleast 100 would get within 400 meters of their target, from which point their bombs are just about gauranteed to hit. Likewise, it only takes 6 good Myrmidon pilots to wipe out any conventional destroyer.
The Colossus woulda made for a better carrier than a frontline weapon.
In FS1 I took down an Orion in a Valk. It's not hard. You just stay close to the hull and pummel the turrets. Once the turrets is gone, you fly out to a distance and sit pummeling the hull with a support ship constantly by your side. Works with any ship although with some it takes too damn long to bother.
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Cant do that in FS2, though. You would need at least a Maxim-fitted fighter with a Trebuchet or greater warhead. Destroyers and biggies are well-armored in that one.....
Sounds stupid. A single Herc taking out a Hades........
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in fs2, anything bigger than a cruiser has a "huge" tag that requires weapons using that tag to destroy it.
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Originally posted by nuclear1
Cant do that in FS2, though. You would need at least a Maxim-fitted fighter with a Trebuchet or greater warhead.
True, except that maxim would not be enough. It doesn't have that "huge" tag. Trebuchet has, though, so with it you can destroy even capital ships. :)
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One thing is that the Helios is not designed as a standard commonly-used bomb; as the tech room says, it costs a lot to produce and is only reserved for missions of the highest importance. (i.e. taking down the first Sathanas) The Cyclops is the standard warhead used for all other operations. ;)
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i think taking down a Sathanas with 50 wings of fighters in a hurry warants Helios bombs
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On a completely unrelated note, why the hell can a Myrmidon mount Helios bombs but not Cyclops' ?
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There was a convo on this somewhere, but I don't remember where.....
*goes to search*
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Back on subject, personally I beleave the Colossus had tremendous firepower and massive hull plating according to the story... but like all games their was engine limitations. I think when you got victory reports form the Colossus (command breifings), it meant that the Colossus used the weaponary it actually had from the cutscene. But if you took that much weapons and tried to cram it onto one ship, the big C would just take down anything lickity-split... now wheres the fun in that? The Sathanas on the other hand, was built by :v: specifically to do that.... It sees something... that something dies... and because it only has 4 beams to do the job, the engine can handle it.
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Well, actually the cutscene was pretty correct at least about the beam weaponry. Sure, there are no missile launchers in the C, but who needs them anyway. If you've got BFGreens, missile launcher don't make a difference.
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missile launchers make for excellent fighter deterent, and the Myrmidon can carry Helios bombs, in my opinion, because its meant for hit and run missions, a wing of them armed with Helios can take out anything smaller than a destroyer in one run, and destroyers in 2
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Originally posted by Blue Lion
There was a convo on this somewhere, but I don't remember where.....
*goes to search*
I think it was back on the VBB ( :( ) , and the two theries suggested were.
A: Although the mymadons capacity for weapons isnt as big as a herc for example, but the actual dimensions of the ammo compartment on a myrm allowed it to carry a warhead of large size, just look at a pic of a myrm if u dont understand
... Or B: It was just a mistake, someone clicked Helios instead of harpoon while making freespace.
Personally that makes the fact it can carry helios makes the myrm the best allround ship in my opinion.
Pete
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I have a feeling that it was accidental; the Helios is supposed to be a "super bomb," and only the heaviest bombers in the game are supposed to be able to carry it. It makes no sense to have a space superiority fighter carry bombs, and is it also a bit suggestive that it cannot carry Harpoons (important for SS fighters), while most other ships can.
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Originally posted by Stunaep
Sure, there are no missile launchers in the C, but who needs them anyway. If you've got BFGreens, missile launcher don't make a difference.
:nod:
A capital ship needs just beams, anti-fighter and anti-capital ship beams. It doesn't need flaks (but those are pretty good), or laser turrets (um, useless ;)).
Edit: Originally posted by beatspete
Personally that makes the fact it can carry helios makes the myrm the best allround ship in my opinion.
I agree that it's pretty good thing that it can carry the helios, but at least in main campaign I don't know a mission where you could use Myrmidon with helios. But of course in other missions you can if allowed. :nod:
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Some of the multiplayer mission allow both the Myrmidon and the Helios, so it can be done there. :p :D
Sure, there are no missile launchers in the C, but who needs them anyway.
Actually it has some of those MX-52 things, but those are simply pathetic. :p
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What are the point of the lasers anyway? They dont do any damage unless the game is on very hard and you have no shields. Volition should of boosted the damage and speed of the lasers to make them more effective.
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either you're a very bad shot or something's severely wrong with you, lasers work very well. Anyone dependent on missiles cant aim, and anyone who thinks lasers dont do damage needs to get on PXO for a tvt against Shaz.
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Originally posted by CP5670
I have a feeling that it was accidental; the Helios is supposed to be a "super bomb," and only the heaviest bombers in the game are supposed to be able to carry it. It makes no sense to have a space superiority fighter carry bombs,
Reminds me of the X-Wing. There's an idea for a campaign..a squad of Myrmidons. But I'll hold it in.
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Originally posted by LtNarol
either you're a very bad shot or something's severely wrong with you, lasers work very well. Anyone dependent on missiles cant aim, and anyone who thinks lasers dont do damage needs to get on PXO for a tvt against Shaz.
I wasn't talking about primary weapon lasers, I was talking aboout the lasers on the cruisers and capital ships
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Laser turrets are decent for shooting down bombs, especially the quick firing ones on the arms of a Cain or Lilith (too lazy to check the name). They also at least force fighters and bombers in the vicinity to dodge. On higher difficulties, a one or two direct hits from a turret can sometimes bring down a whole shield quadrant on a fighter.
On the other hand, I agree that the turrets should have boosted speed and power to make them almost as viable as flak guns.
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They should also have more mass to them so they push fighters and bombers away.
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Originally posted by Shiva Archon
On the other hand, I agree that the turrets should have boosted speed and power to make them almost as viable as flak guns.
IMO flak guns are more of an annoyance. They fire fast, correct, but if you're good at shield management, they can be dealt with. A true nightmare to a bomber pilot are the fighterkiller missiles on the Deimos, Sobek, etc.
Which brings me to the point, why are corvettes and certain cruisers (ok, the Aeolus) better protected against bombers than capital ships. Compared to the size, Deimos for example has a lot more firepower/m2 than any destroyer. Not to mention the deadly AAA and fighterkillers. I'd take on a Hecate anytime, but a Deimos.... heh, makes me think.
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if you're going after a Deimos or Hecate, go for a face shot, theres very little there to stop you. As for the laser turrets, they're more powerful against hull than maxims, that makes them good anti capital ship weapons. The fact that they dont push fighters away can be attributed to the fact that they're energy based weapons (though i doubt they're actual lasers, they're too slow for that).
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Well, those laser turrets don't even have the huge tag, and they're slow and don't make that much damage, but on insane they're pretty bad, indeed. But still not as nearly deadly as flak or beams.
Originally posted by Stunaep
IMO flak guns are more of an annoyance. They fire fast, correct, but if you're good at shield management, they can be dealt with. A true nightmare to a bomber pilot are the fighterkiller missiles on the Deimos, Sobek, etc.
Well, I guess that flak cannons, anti-fighter beams, and fighterkiller (actually I don't know about them, but Piranhas are pretty deadly) missiles are all pretty deadly. But flak guns, at least on harder difficulties do pretty a lot of damage. :nod:
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Originally posted by LtNarol
if you're going after a Deimos or Hecate, go for a face shot, theres very little there to stop you.
Yeah, but an Orion doesn't even have flak (correct me on that) and you can just fly into one of Hecate's many blind spots, load the Helios/Cyclops and blast off.
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Try boosting the rate of fire and speed of the laser turret projectiles (along with some other changes); I did this for my campaign and they are actually quite effective now at warding off a number of threats. ;) Also, by default, the Huge and the Megafunk turrets are actually worse than the smaller ones because while they do more damage, they fire at about half the speed and move too slowly to hit anything. :p
Yeah, but an Orion doesn't even have flak (correct me on that) and you can just fly into one of Hecate's many blind spots, load the Helios/Cyclops and blast off.
That's quite true; anyone who has played the Rebel Intercept mission would recognize that. :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
That's quite true; anyone who has played the Rebel Intercept mission would recognize that. :D
:D
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Originally posted by Stunaep
:D
:nod:
But Deimos... that's a scary ship. With almost no blind spots, it's pretty much a nightmare. :p
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Actually it seems to be somewhat easy to take down from the front in my experience; the Piranha sub-projectiles never go into that area for some reason (too far away maybe) and the only things that attack you there are two Terran Turrets. If you fire your bombs at engine03 (right between the turrets), the turrets almost always miss the bomb even on insane difficulty. :p
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Originally posted by CP5670
Actually it seems to be somewhat easy to take down from the front in my experience; the Piranha sub-projectiles never go into that area for some reason (too far away maybe) and the only things that attack you there are two Terran Turrets. If you fire your bombs at engine03 (right between the turrets), the turrets almost always miss the bomb even on insane difficulty. :p
:doh: Forgot about the front. But it's bad when the Deimos is moving fast (30 m/s), and you're staying still (or if you're). Of course you could make bombing runs, but I prefer stopping so it's faster. :p
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Only problem with attacking a Deimos in the front is that it will quickly run you over, and if you pull up or dive the fighter beams and fighter killer missiles will eat your @ss up. (Are we allowed to use profanity?)
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safe= @$$
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Originally posted by X-Files Addict
Only problem with attacking a Deimos in the front is that it will quickly run you over, and if you pull up or dive the fighter beams and fighter killer missiles will eat your @ss up. (Are we allowed to use profanity?)
Also, getting to its front takes, time, which in some SP and AFAIK in some MP missions, you don't have (Deimos jumps out, etc...)
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any experienced bomber will tell you a deimos is not that tough of a target, you just have to know how to hit it. As for the orion, i do believe it has a flak cannon or two on its underside somewhere, i remember being shot at by one. Lasers, some of those capital ship lasers are far more powerful than maxims, you dont want to get hit by them.
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Originally posted by LtNarol
any experienced bomber will tell you a deimos is not that tough of a target, you just have to know how to hit it. As for the orion, i do believe it has a flak cannon or two on its underside somewhere, i remember being shot at by one. Lasers, some of those capital ship lasers are far more powerful than maxims, you dont want to get hit by them.
Attacking a diemos has always been quite hard for me. Corvetes are particullary nasty since they have all new weapons, are quite fast, and have a big ship tag so cant be taken out with normal guns.
'The kings gambit' ie the mission where you are at a blockade and the molijner beams are fist introduced is on of my fave missions, but the Diemos at the end almost always destroys me on 'hard' or above. Since its going fast when it comes out of warp, you usually end up behind it, and they are well defended from behind. If you arent shot down first, then the flack turrets will get you torpedeos :doh: Ravana class destroyers are easier to attack. Serisouly they are, very weak turrets.
Havent attacked a sobek or hecate, must try it one day.
Lasers? bah! :p Most of them dont even dent you sheilds, and the big ones move so slow an Ursa can outrun them.
pete
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How do you dent shields?
Hecate is easy, since it is so big it doesn't have enough turrets to prevent blind spots.
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hecates have lots of turrets, ever try completely disarming that thing? took me a good 5 minutes last time i tried...they're just in bad places and all cover a few areas. The key is dodging its heavy flak, which you can do by cork screwing. With the corvettes, you approach from in front, if you end up behind a Deimos, you're in trouble but not doomed. Pull up and hit your burnersm try to get out of the firing arc of the aaaf on its back end, then hit its engine shell from above, launch bombs or torps at 400 meters, pick a forward turret, match speed, lock, fire, and repeat. with the ravanas, go for a face shot, theres no defense there whatsoever. on molochs, go for its centerline where its skiniest, blast the flak turrets in that area off with maxims if you can, lock, and bomb away.
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I can't imagine anyone having trouble bombing an Orion, unless you somehow are stupid enough to get caught with the anti-fighter beams. Hecate is tougher, since it's beams and flak guns are better placed. Still, like the deimos, attacking it from the front will do the job. In the end, if you have either a maxim or trebs, there is no trouble, (maxim preferably since trebs can run out).
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Originally posted by LtNarol
hecates have lots of turrets, ever try completely disarming that thing? took me a good 5 minutes last time i tried...they're just in bad places and all cover a few areas. The key is dodging its heavy flak, which you can do by cork screwing. With the corvettes, you approach from in front, if you end up behind a Deimos, you're in trouble but not doomed. Pull up and hit your burnersm try to get out of the firing arc of the aaaf on its back end, then hit its engine shell from above, launch bombs or torps at 400 meters, pick a forward turret, match speed, lock, fire, and repeat. with the ravanas, go for a face shot, theres no defense there whatsoever. on molochs, go for its centerline where its skiniest, blast the flak turrets in that area off with maxims if you can, lock, and bomb away.
tell me something I don't know :p . Anyway, the Deimos still has the fighterkillers, which IMO are the biggest annoyance, since you can get out of the range of the Deimos' AAA, dodge the flak, but the fighterkiller can do significant amount of damage, if you do not pay attention to shields. Which is, why Sobeks are easier to attack - you just knock out the near-engine AAA, there's two of those, then get behind (or more like south-west) of it, and fire away.
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maxims dont have the huge tag, so you cant kill anything larger than a cruiser with it. Trebs just take forever to kill capital ships, unless you're talking about hunting down transports or freighters.
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Originally posted by LtNarol
maxims dont have the huge tag, so you cant kill anything larger than a cruiser with it. Trebs just take forever to kill capital ships, unless you're talking about hunting down transports or freighters.
You can knock out AAA at a fair range with, them, that's good enough for me.
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Originally posted by X-Files Addict
How do you dent shields?
You hit them with something harder.
Personally i preffer trebs to maxims for taking out bombers, since they have better range and dont need to be aimed, but for turrets the maxim is the best weapon.
Fighter killers are anoyying, but flack turrets really get on my nerves, especially long range ones, grrr.
pete
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Originally posted by LtNarol
hecates have lots of turrets, ever try completely disarming that thing?
They have lots of turrets, but they're far away from each other. Of course it takes time to disarm it, because of lots of turrets, and they're spread, so it takes time to get from other to other.
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There are two good approaches for the Hecate; either get right in the front, where it can't really hit you with anything at all, or go near the two pillars (comm and nav subsystems) in the rear and bomb it there. If you choose the latter approach though, you will need to take down at least the two rear main flak cannons. The rearmost flak turret is much weaker than the others due to a bug in the default tables. (they have that turret too weak and one of the other small turrets somewhere on the ship too strong)