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Community Projects => The FreeSpace Wiki Project => Topic started by: Mars on December 28, 2010, 11:20:45 pm

Title: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Mars on December 28, 2010, 11:20:45 pm
Exactly what the quiz states. The BP tables of these ships are totally different, the texturing is totally different, I believe the models have been tweaked (fact check please), and they are central to two major campaigns. I am in favor of a split.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Droid803 on December 29, 2010, 12:22:17 am
The models are identical from what I can tell.
Actually, why not just get rid of the non-BP one altogether as, well, its not really used anywhere at all...

Voted no, because its messy to have articles refering to almost the same thing, with the same name, and having to use disambiguation and whatnot.

There are better ways to handle this I think.

EDIT:
Ok, maybe just split the Raynor, and have it as Raynor_(old) or something, cause the only other appearance uses the old model. (non-htl and all)
That one can talk about the Raynor in CoW, as well as the Valhalla in ItHoV.

Where else is the Titan used?

EDIT2:
On second thought don't split it at all.
Look at the Akrotiri page, it covers the INFR1, PI, and ASW versions just fine.
Textures are totally different, tables are totally different, the models have been tweaked (and in one case completely re-done in HTL version), they are central to two major campaigns, and they all share the same page just fine!

Unless you want to split that one too. Have fun.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Black Wolf on December 29, 2010, 01:19:37 am
No. BP have reskinned it - very well, no doubt, but in the end, that's all it is. The name of the ship has stayed the same, so it should all be on the same page. Think about people looking for info on this ship - it'll be easier if it's all on one page.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 29, 2010, 01:36:07 am
Absolutely not.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Mars on December 29, 2010, 01:37:31 am
How very unequivocal of you. XD

I can however definitely see why.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Qent on December 29, 2010, 02:40:45 am
Too many other ships that are really BP-only; like the ones that were "really" retextured, unlike the Raynor and the Titan. Best to be consistent with those.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Fury on December 29, 2010, 02:45:16 am
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Akrotiri is a prime example how this should be handled. In fact, it might be worth setting a redirect to correct wiki page if same ship has different names in different mods. Common sense can be used though and different pages set up when one version is so different it could just as well be a different ship altogether. But when that is not the case, one wiki page per ship please.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: General Battuta on December 29, 2010, 09:21:12 am
it's just a reskin, do it like the ak
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Nyctaeus on December 29, 2010, 02:43:57 pm
Why the Blue Planet versions of the models are in articles? They're not official autor's textures so they should be replaced by the correct ones. I've noticed the BP-related stuff is favoured then things from other mods etc.

And I don't know why BP's Titan has a separated article. This is just a reskin with other weapons and changed type of ship. PI's Akrotiri isn's super carrier as orginal Akrotiti is, and it's in main Akrotiri article.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Mars on December 29, 2010, 02:45:47 pm
Why the Blue Planet versions of the models are in articles? They're not official autor's textures so they should be replaced by the correct ones. I've noticed the BP-related stuff is favoured then things from other mods etc.

And I don't know why BP's Titan has a separated article. This is just a reskin with other weapons and changed type of ship. PI's Akrotiri isn's super carrier as orginal Akrotiti is, and it's in main Akrotiri article.
They are not separated, so save the indignation.


So the qualifications of separating an article depends on the model?
Also, what does that mean about the GTB Hydra?

Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Mobius on December 29, 2010, 02:49:14 pm
I agree wholeheartedly with Droid803 here. Take a look at the Akrotiri page, that article should serve as an example.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Mars on December 29, 2010, 03:41:57 pm
I acknowledge the validity of merging them. My primary question is, what is the crucial difference at which ship mods are different enough to split? I'd like to know for future reference.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Droid803 on December 29, 2010, 03:59:13 pm
If they have different names, would be my say.
Cause that cuts down on confusion for people looking for it.

For example, if someone types in "gtd raynor" into the search bar, there shouldn't be like four results saying "GTD Raynor" and then having the searcher figure out which one they're really looking for. But if they have different names, like UEF Kentauroi and FTF Jackal, then you can know for certain whichever one they're searching for is the one they actually want.

If its a modification of a canon ship, then obviously it has to be in its own article, as we don't want to shove non-canon info into an article about a canon ship (that's just messy). But amongst non-canon sources, they're all equal so they all go on the same page.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: General Battuta on December 29, 2010, 03:59:53 pm
Why the Blue Planet versions of the models are in articles? They're not official autor's textures so they should be replaced by the correct ones. I've noticed the BP-related stuff is favoured then things from other mods etc.

And I don't know why BP's Titan has a separated article. This is just a reskin with other weapons and changed type of ship. PI's Akrotiri isn's super carrier as orginal Akrotiti is, and it's in main Akrotiri article.

that's because people actually give a **** about and work on the BP stuff. if the same effort was put into the other mods they could get the same treatment, but wiki-ers aren't doing it
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Mobius on December 29, 2010, 04:04:48 pm
Uhm, Droid, don't we have redirects? How are those different names a problem, if typing them can lead to the same page?
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Droid803 on December 29, 2010, 04:07:16 pm
yeah, we can redirect if there are different names, but we can't anti-redirect if we have the same name (that needs a disambiguation page and those "you might be looking for ...." at the top which makes stuff less straightforward.

I'm saying that its more OK to split if we have different names, less OK if we don't, cause it causes less confusion that way.


EDIT: as for categorizing, if it appears in Blue Planet, categorize it as a Blue Planet Ship. Being a Blue Planet Ship doesn't imply it exists exclusively in the BP universe, only that it appears in BP.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: TopAce on December 29, 2010, 04:13:40 pm
yeah, we can redirect if there are different names, but we can't anti-redirect if we have the same name (that needs a disambiguation page and those "you might be looking for ...." at the top which makes stuff less straightforward.

I'm saying that its more OK to split if we have different names, less OK if we don't, cause it causes less confusion that way.


EDIT: as for categorizing, if it appears in Blue Planet, categorize it as a Blue Planet Ship. Being a Blue Planet Ship doesn't imply it exists exclusively in the BP universe, only that it appears in BP.

Agreed with this post completely. The ACa Akrotiri and the Vishnan Keeper are two different ships for two different purposes, different tables. That they have the same mesh doesn't count for much. The GTD Raynor, be it the original low-poly one or Dragon's updated version, it's just the GTD Raynor.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Mobius on December 29, 2010, 04:36:14 pm
I think we should go by meshes, not by names/purposes/whatever, or things would become confusing.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: General Battuta on December 29, 2010, 04:41:23 pm
yeah, we can redirect if there are different names, but we can't anti-redirect if we have the same name (that needs a disambiguation page and those "you might be looking for ...." at the top which makes stuff less straightforward.

I'm saying that its more OK to split if we have different names, less OK if we don't, cause it causes less confusion that way.


EDIT: as for categorizing, if it appears in Blue Planet, categorize it as a Blue Planet Ship. Being a Blue Planet Ship doesn't imply it exists exclusively in the BP universe, only that it appears in BP.

Agreed with this post completely. The ACa Akrotiri and the Vishnan Keeper are two different ships for two different purposes, different tables. That they have the same mesh doesn't count for much. The GTD Raynor, be it the original low-poly one or Dragon's updated version, it's just the GTD Raynor.

qtf+agreement, we're not exactly running out of 1s and 0s and as long as all the pages using the same mesh under different names link to the same release, shouldn't be a problem to give them their own unique info

there is zero reason a model should be tied to its original fluff
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Qent on December 29, 2010, 08:53:17 pm
What about that big Blue Planet banner at the top?
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: TopAce on December 30, 2010, 03:52:23 am
Let it stay for BP-exclusive content. Let it go for mods that are also used elsewhere.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: ktistai228 on December 30, 2010, 04:51:27 am
I'm with Mobius on this one. I mean, I have no problem with BP ships having different articles, but I do not think it's appropriate to have them all linked to the User-made Ship list. And I have the same stand on the Hydra table hack and the Saphah retexture. They should not be there. (thinking of making a Canon retextures category, probably a bad idea)
On the problem of BP ships, yeah, the Akrotiri way is the best one. All the info is there, it's easy, simple and just one article.
Now
Quote
that's because people actually give a **** about and work on the BP stuff. if the same effort was put into the other mods they could get the same treatment, but wiki-ers aren't doing it
Battuta, while I agree that BP is a success and gets a lot of attention, there are people working on stuff different from BP on the wiki. So please don't be so cocky. I appreciate your work and contributions, but that was out of line. The FSwiki should not be transformed into a BPfanboy wiki.
This is my opinion, and I fully support it. If the community decides otherwise, however, I will comply.:)
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: TopAce on December 30, 2010, 05:22:06 am
Though I hate to see BP monopolizing the FSWiki, it's as much the result of BP's aggressive PR as the laziness of the rest of the community. If only the (subjectively judged) OMGTHISISBESTOMGTHXYOU is worthy enough to be represented in the Wiki with more than a couple ship articles, then the general apathy towards less successful mods is at blame as well.

This is consistent with what I said about removing Inferno-related content back in the day. Other mods need a wider representation.

Of course there are some mods that are represented adequately. ST:R, Inferno, Derelict have useful ship articles and walkthroughs. Plus there's a bunch of TBP ships as well. But that's about it. Most of the other mods are restricted to one article.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: ktistai228 on December 30, 2010, 05:27:59 am
True, and there are a lot of ships that aren't covered. Let's not talk of TBP, WCS, WoD, Star Trek, Star Wars, a lot of already released pofed ships aren't on the wiki!
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Fury on December 30, 2010, 05:29:41 am
You know, the wiki can be freely edited by all (wiki) registered users, so feel free to contribute.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: ktistai228 on December 30, 2010, 05:33:58 am
I am Fury, I am! I've added 50 ships in the last 2 weeks!
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Fury on December 30, 2010, 05:41:16 am
That so? Keep up good work then. :)
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: Nyctaeus on December 30, 2010, 09:57:38 am
You know, the wiki can be freely edited by all (wiki) registered users, so feel free to contribute.
But someone [main admin for example] should be the one who "preserving the balance" :). FSwiki is FSwiki, not BPwiki. Every mod should have the same rights.
Not everyone is BP fanboy. For example, I don't like AoA [only WiH was good] so I don't like to see BP-related stuff as a main part of neutral article, only as an addon. If you add BP-related stuff, add also a retextures, weapon list and other stuff from other mods. Raynor for example was used in 15+ other projects, and even don't have screenshot of his standard HTL on wiki. Partialy agree with Kristai.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: General Battuta on December 30, 2010, 10:13:28 am
oh never mind

No 'Preserving the Balance'. People will write articles about what they write about. Nothing I can do about that.

TopAce: I put as much effort into publicizing other mods, yours included, as I did BP. Nobody seemed to take interest. Nothing I can do about that.

ktistai: You badly misread my post and really pissed me off in the process. PM me so we can sort it out.
Title: Re: Splitting the BP and original versions of Raynor and Titan
Post by: The E on December 30, 2010, 10:15:53 am
Locked. Might unlock later. Cool down, people.