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Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: noodlezombie on January 03, 2011, 04:03:44 pm

Title: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: noodlezombie on January 03, 2011, 04:03:44 pm
Quoted from another thread, felt the subject matter deserved it's own thread:

it's just that your standards were stratospherically high and therefore intensely frustrating.

Actually, in regards to Blue Planet, I think I was just generally angry at the time and Blue Planet (War in Heaven especially) just happened to present itself as a target for some reason. Now that some time has passed, I've looked back and realized that BP is good. Like, absurdly good. Probably one of the most polished and fleshed-out games of the last decade, at least, let alone a mod. I'd even go so far as to compare it's well thought out setting and politics to something like Planescape: Torment or the Elder Scrolls (Morrowind, mostly, before that franchise went straight to hell). Certainly better than any of the bloated messes that companies like Ubisoft and EA put out these days. I still stand by my criticism of the way the Vishnans just sort of show up out of nowhere in AoA (though I retract my statements about the very idea of them being retarded, since WiH and its many tech entries, not to mention the poetry containers in 'Ken', go out of their way to say that this ISN'T a bunch of spiritualist tripe). And I still feel that the character development and some of the dialog in both games could use some work, though going by the YouTube commentaries (which I would like to see continued by the way) and that massive interview, the mods writers feel much the same way and will never be fully satisfied themselves.

But the attention to detail you guys have put into these mods, especially WiH, is simply insane. Everything from painstakingly explaining and justifying what initially appears to be a completely insane and contrived war scenario (and boy did I fall into that logic trap...) to more minor things, like all the new tactics the GTVA has developed, primarily to fight the Shivans: gun heavy bomber strikes, trebuchet sniping and sub-space missiles, you even mention that the corvette hunter-killer teams like Serkr were originally meant for Juggernaut killing. What you've done is taken what was a rather, while fun, humdrum and average sci-fi setting (I think FS is so enduring because of the gameplay itself, and the fact that it's open source has made it the pinnacle of the entire space-sim genre, more than it's story telling or setting) and turned it into something far, far greater.

You're right, I do have high standards, but I've developed that level of expectation because there are so many things out there that can actually meet it, and I'm happy to say that BP is most definitely one of them. I still don't much care for the UEF as a faction, but I like many of its individual members, and that's probably one of the points. My loyalties still ultimately lie with the GTVA (which makes gunning down waves of them more than a little disturbing), I like them, I understand why they're waging this war, and even agree with their extreme measures, like bombing civilian targets and engineering assassinations. War isn't pretty or nice, and a large portion of the UEF just can't grasp that because they've lived a cushy, sheltered life for the past several decades. The GTVA is doing what they're doing because they feel they have to, and to be honest, they're probably correct. Ubuntu would be extremely dangerous were it to catch on outside of Sol. The two Shivan incursions weren't like any other war in human (and probably Vasudan) history, they weren't about defending an abstract object like a nation or an ideal, or even preserving a specific ethnic group. They were about quite literally defending against total extinction. With something like that on the scale, a wish-washy 'wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice?' philosophy (yes, I know I'm over-simplifying it) is probably about the worst thing that could gain popularity.

Of course the story is building up to the entire situation with the Shivans being different from what most people in the GTVA think it is, but they don't know that, as far as they're concerned a third incursion could happen at any moment. I wouldn't say the UEF is really incorrect either, they simply don't have any experience with the Shivans and don't truly comprehend what kind of a threat they are. Oh, sure, they can read all kinds of historical data taken from the ships that defected, but those are just words and numbers, the people of Sol are disconnected from the events in the galaxy during the last 50 years, the incursions, the NTF rebellion, the complete loss of an entire prosperous star system. Granted some things like the glassing of Vasuda Prime happened while Sol was still open, but the entire Great-War happens over a very short span of time and the significance of that event probably didn't have enough time to truly sink in for the people in Sol, and they certainly didn't have to deal with the aftermath of that event once the fighting stopped. And they have nothing in their experience to compare with barely defeating one alien super-ship, only to discover the enemy has 80 more of them. The UEF is stubbornly defending their way of life because it's theres, and they like it, it's all they've ever known. But in the grand scheme of things, given what is at stake, they're in the wrong, or at least as 'wrong' as this morally vague story and setting will allow.

As a final note, I also think I've figured out the story element/plot twist that was mentioned in the interview as being the one thing nobody had covered in the copious amounts of discussion BP has had on these forums. The clue about it being something that shows up in almost every mission of WiH is what gave it away for me, though it took me a while and I only realized it by connecting it with the one tech room entry that doesn't (apparently) pertain to anything actually covered in one way or other in the two games that have been released so far.

And if I'm correct it is a very cruel plot-twist indeed. You evil bastards.
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: General Battuta on January 03, 2011, 08:53:28 pm
*hug*

This made me really happy.

um sorry if that hug was like too intimate and stuff
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: Snail on January 03, 2011, 09:21:23 pm
I think a memorandum of good cheer is in order
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: Marcov on January 03, 2011, 09:43:51 pm
So, you think Blue Planet's plot isn't nice?

Well, you're more of an Alpha 1 than a Samuel Bei :p
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: General Battuta on January 04, 2011, 12:01:10 am
So, you think Blue Planet's plot isn't nice?

Well, you're more of an Alpha 1 than a Samuel Bei :p

no he likes it

can you read? reading comprehension test right now
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: Parias on January 04, 2011, 02:48:03 am
So, you think Blue Planet's plot isn't nice?

Well, you're more of an Alpha 1 than a Samuel Bei :p

no he likes it

can you read? reading comprehension test right now

Heh. I think "isn't nice" may have been more of a reference to the plot being "unkind", rather than a jab at the overall quality - though it would fall to Marcov to elucidate further on the actual intent of his posting of course.
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: Icewater on January 06, 2011, 06:52:58 pm
As a final note, I also think I've figured out the story element/plot twist that was mentioned in the interview as being the one thing nobody had covered in the copious amounts of discussion BP has had on these forums. The clue about it being something that shows up in almost every mission of WiH is what gave it away for me, though it took me a while and I only realized it by connecting it with the one tech room entry that doesn't (apparently) pertain to anything actually covered in one way or other in the two games that have been released so far.

And if I'm correct it is a very cruel plot-twist indeed. You evil bastards.

Don't tell me it's something like

Spoiler:
all of BP:WiH part 1 was just a hallucination/dream/whatever
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: General Battuta on January 06, 2011, 07:00:44 pm
hahahahaha no
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 07, 2011, 01:47:44 am
hahahahaha no

Battuta lies. It's totally true.
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: Marcov on January 07, 2011, 06:58:33 pm
Quote
no he likes it

can you read? reading comprehension test right now

Quote
And if I'm correct it is a very cruel plot-twist indeed. You evil bastards.

 :confused:

From what I understand, noodle doesn't like the Vishnans or something. He doesn't like such a new uber-race.

Also, saying that he was more of an "Alpha 1" than "Samuel Bei" means that he prefers the rather impersonal scheme of FS2 retail rather than the uber-personal and ghost stories of Blue Planet. Hell even Alpha 1 sounds more militaristic than Samuel Bei.
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2011, 07:03:35 pm
Quote
no he likes it

can you read? reading comprehension test right now

Quote
And if I'm correct it is a very cruel plot-twist indeed. You evil bastards.

 :confused:

From what I understand, noodle doesn't like the Vishnans or something. He doesn't like such a new uber-race.

Also, saying that he was more of an "Alpha 1" than "Samuel Bei" means that he prefers the rather impersonal scheme of FS2 retail rather than the uber-personal and ghost stories of Blue Planet. Hell even Alpha 1 sounds more militaristic than Samuel Bei.

The vishnans are not a new uber-race and what his saying is that he thinks he knows where we're taking the story which he likes.

If you'll read his post you can see it is about how he likes the story.

I can understand problems with the Vishnans if you've just played AoA, but by WiH it should be clear they're not exactly benevolent do-gooders.

Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: Marcov on January 07, 2011, 07:36:03 pm
I still think he doesn't actually like Blue Planet, but accepted its unique plot anyways.

As for me, yes, I do like BP, even though its style contradicts that of Retail FS2.
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2011, 07:43:15 pm
BP was never meant to be like retail.

You're wrong about his opinion, though - read what he said:

Quote
Actually, in regards to Blue Planet, I think I was just generally angry at the time and Blue Planet (War in Heaven especially) just happened to present itself as a target for some reason. Now that some time has passed, I've looked back and realized that BP is good. Like, absurdly good.
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: Marcov on January 07, 2011, 07:45:45 pm
As I remember he was commenting more on the mod's plot twist, rather than its quality.
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2011, 07:47:46 pm
Until he shows up to tell you you're wrong, please read

Quote
Probably one of the most polished and fleshed-out games of the last decade, at least, let alone a mod. I'd even go so far as to compare it's well thought out setting and politics to something like Planescape: Torment or the Elder Scrolls (Morrowind, mostly, before that franchise went straight to hell). Certainly better than any of the bloated messes that companies like Ubisoft and EA put out these days.

Quote
What you've done is taken what was a rather, while fun, humdrum and average sci-fi setting (I think FS is so enduring because of the gameplay itself, and the fact that it's open source has made it the pinnacle of the entire space-sim genre, more than it's story telling or setting) and turned it into something far, far greater.

i mean just read his post
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: noodlezombie on January 08, 2011, 07:13:40 pm
Don't tell me it's something like

Spoiler:
all of BP:WiH part 1 was just a hallucination/dream/whatever

No, my theory is that
Spoiler:
Simms is a GTVA plant.
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: Snail on January 08, 2011, 07:14:20 pm
Spoiler:
No, my theory is that
Spoiler:
Simms is a GTVA plant.
¿¡!?
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: General Battuta on January 08, 2011, 07:15:47 pm
Bear in mind that Simms was verifiably in Sol and in the military before the node was re-opened. Make your theories accordingly!
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: Snail on January 08, 2011, 07:17:23 pm
Bear in mind that Simms was verifiably in Sol and in the military before the node was re-opened. Make your theories accordingly!
Cloned
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: noodlezombie on January 09, 2011, 03:53:13 pm
Bear in mind that Simms was verifiably in Sol and in the military before the node was re-opened. Make your theories accordingly!

Well, there goes that theory.

Meh, now I got nothin'.
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: Vidmaster on January 09, 2011, 05:10:19 pm
I like them, I understand why they're waging this war, and even agree with their extreme measures, like bombing civilian targets and engineering assassinations. War isn't pretty or nice, and a large portion of the UEF just can't grasp that because they've lived a cushy, sheltered life for the past several decades.

I seriously hope you will never ever be in a position with a lot of responsibility.  :rolleyes: While I can accept on a purely logical, darwinisical level, that survival of the fitest has no rules, I see myself as a human being. We thrive to be more than animals and ethics and self-control (aka instinct-control) is just the way to do that. Of course, we are talking reality here.
Since we know that mankind often falls back to various levels of primitive behavior and that crimes against humanity (like the ones you mentioned) happen in real life, it is necessary and powerful to deal with these in our works of ficition.

I posted that on the HLP wiki and I will post it here again:
""THIS is gaming. An interactive novel, a work of art, creating emotions in the player (despite lacking voice acting for now). Tense, exciting, big and a blast to play. War in Heaven dwarfs everything released for FS or its TCs so far." - Vidmaster" (including my own stuff which shares a similar focus on storytelling, despite having a totally different style)

go on Team!
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: General Battuta on January 09, 2011, 05:14:05 pm
Bear in mind that Simms was verifiably in Sol and in the military before the node was re-opened. Make your theories accordingly!

Well, there goes that theory.

Meh, now I got nothin'.

She at least knew Karen Ng'Mei.

I like them, I understand why they're waging this war, and even agree with their extreme measures, like bombing civilian targets and engineering assassinations. War isn't pretty or nice, and a large portion of the UEF just can't grasp that because they've lived a cushy, sheltered life for the past several decades.

I seriously hope you will never ever be in a position with a lot of responsibility.  :rolleyes: While I can accept on a purely logical, darwinisical level, that survival of the fitest has no rules, I see myself as a human being. We thrive to be more than animals and ethics and self-control (aka instinct-control) is just the way to do that. Of course, we are talking reality here.
Since we know that mankind often falls back to various levels of primitive behavior and that crimes against humanity (like the ones you mentioned) happen in real life, it is necessary and powerful to deal with these in our works of ficition.

I posted that on the HLP wiki and I will post it here again:
""THIS is gaming. An interactive novel, a work of art, creating emotions in the player (despite lacking voice acting for now). Tense, exciting, big and a blast to play. War in Heaven dwarfs everything released for FS or its TCs so far." - Vidmaster" (including my own stuff which shares a similar focus on storytelling, despite having a totally different style)

go on Team!

You don't have to put your own work down, Vid. It is good and inspirational.
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: Spoon on January 10, 2011, 12:03:52 pm
Quote
""THIS is gaming. An interactive novel, a work of art, creating emotions in the player (despite lacking voice acting for now). Tense, exciting, big and a blast to play. War in Heaven dwarfs everything released for FS or its TCs so far." - Vidmaster"
Clearly you haven't played Wings of dawn, cause you wouldn't be saying that WiH dwarfs everything forever :/
Sure, I'll grant that it dwarfs everything in download numbers and storyline, but imho Vassago dirge has WiH1 beat in mission design. And TBP&WoD when it comes to assets creation and the like. Not trying to put BP down here, but I hate these "ITS THE BEST THING FOREVER, TRUE FACT." kinda statements/reviews :/

Now with Battuta and Axem fredding WiH2 together, that's something to look forward to  :D
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: General Battuta on January 10, 2011, 12:06:04 pm
spoon can we just not do this please
Title: Re: So yeah...I was wrong...
Post by: Asteroth on January 14, 2011, 11:24:18 pm
Don't tell me it's something like

Spoiler:
all of BP:WiH part 1 was just a hallucination/dream/whatever

No, my theory is that
Spoiler:
Simms is a GTVA plant.
I literally stared at your post for about 20 seconds attempting to imagine
Spoiler:
Simms being a flower pot with the GTVA logo slapped on it
Before I realized my stupidity.