Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on January 08, 2011, 10:30:17 pm
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They fired three profs and shut down the entire department over one student project? One that was given a failing grade anyway?
I had better expectations of you, Turkey.
Because Turkey is still an Islamic country. While not nearly as whackey as several others in the region, they are still behind most other parts of Europe.
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They fired three profs and shut down the entire department over one student project? One that was given a failing grade anyway?
I had better expectations of you, Turkey.
Because Turkey is still an Islamic country.
I am actually a pro total expert on Turkey because of where my forum handle came from and it is determinedly anti-Muslim in terms of its government and policy. In fact its military is constitutionally obligated to overthrow the government (and has done so) if religious sorts gain too much political power.
If you want to overcome your shocking laaaaameitude and gain some pro respect points read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Turkey) to learn all about how Turkey was determinedly super-secular but has been slipping in the last couple decades.
While not nearly as whackey as several others in the region, they are still behind most other parts of Europe.
god i've had to explain this so many times, it's because they were butt****ed by colonialism and europe being awesome, not because they were too busy performing five daily prayers to get **** done
if being muslim made you **** at stuff explain how greek civilization survived the middle ages
yeah i thought so
yeah
here if you want to be cool read all this ****ing **** (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age)
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Turkey isn't very Muslim at all and hasn't been since Ataturk got done with it. It has a lot more culturally in common with Europe than it does with its neighbors to the south and southeast.
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They fired three profs and shut down the entire department over one student project? One that was given a failing grade anyway?
I had better expectations of you, Turkey.
Because Turkey is still an Islamic country.
I am actually a pro total expert on Turkey because of where my forum handle came from and it is determinedly anti-Muslim in terms of its government and policy. In fact its military is constitutionally obligated to overthrow the government (and has done so) if religious sorts gain too much political power.
If you want to overcome your shocking laaaaameitude and gain some pro respect points read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Turkey) to learn all about how Turkey was determinedly super-secular but has been slipping in the last couple decades.
While not nearly as whackey as several others in the region, they are still behind most other parts of Europe.
god i've had to explain this so many times, it's because they were butt****ed by colonialism and europe being awesome, not because they were too busy performing five daily prayers to get **** done
if being muslim made you **** at stuff explain how greek civilization survived the middle ages
yeah i thought so
yeah
here if you want to be cool read all this ****ing **** (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age)
Turkish government is secular but the society is not, which is really what this whole issue is about. There really aren't too many countries that manage to score lower than the US in terms of popular acceptance of evolution, but is it really a surprise that by a fairly wide margin Turkey is one of them? see for yourself. (http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=507) Remember that survey was the US + Japan + Europe + Turkey, btw.
Oh, and since you claim Turkish society is so modern, perhaps you'd care to explain all the so called honor killings (http://humanrights.foreignpolicyblogs.com/2009/03/28/honor-killings-and-turkey/)? Based on this, it wasn't until 2006 that Turkey even had a law requiring mandatory life sentences for this, and that only happened as a requirement for their application for EU membership. Before that men who committed honor killings were given very light sentences, if any at all. From that article I'll quote a couple of examples:
And in a darkened room a young man, who had shot his stepmother and her lover, said that prison guards and inmates treated him with respect. He spent two and half years in jail.
In that same village, a young bride had her eyes gouged out, her tongue cut, her body cut into pieces, and then burned by a jealous husband who is serving 5 years.
Notice the absurdly light sentences? 2.5 years for a double murder? 5 years for the torture and murder of a women? Are you seriously going sit there and tell me that THIS is equal to europe?
And yeah we know all about the golden age, but you forget to mention that it ended 700 YEARS AGO. Hardly applicable to today.
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:words:
i know everything in this post and have known it for years i am sorry you had to waste the words on it
Oh, and since you claim Turkish society is so modern
can you even read
i'm just here to disconnect the part of your brain that makes you think islam makes any of this happen instead of ALL THE **** THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS
soon you will figure it out and i will be sooo haaaappy and we can make a root beer float and drink it
here i'm gonna help you
And yeah we know all about the golden age, but you forget to mention that it ended 700 YEARS AGO. Hardly applicable to today.
you're almost there you're so close just a little further let's use MATH
if islam * good conditions = golden age
and islam * bad conditions = and then burned by a jealous husband who is serving 5 years
then we can factor 'islam' out and what we are left with is conditions
hmmmmmmmmmm i wonder
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I think the trick here is to seperate Archaic views and attitudes towards crime with Islam, the two items are not one and the same, just as 'being Islamic' doesn't neccesarily imply being out of touch any more than being non-Islamic means that a country must be forward-thinking.
Iirc, Turkey has a terrible human rights record, which is why it had such trouble getting into the EU, but I think we need to be careful not to confuse things. In my own experience in talking to Turkish people on holiday, Islam is a prominent religion, but it's in the background, much like Christianity in the UK, they pay their obligatory visit to the Mosque, and they pray when they have time, but for the main part it's just something that exists and isn't really a major influencing factor. That said, this opinion, as in the UK, may change as you head out into more rural areas.
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i'm just here to disconnect the part of your brain that makes you think islam makes any of this happen instead of ALL THE **** THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS
Show me an Islamic country on par with western Europe in terms of social values. Ooops, there aren't any. Imagine that.
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i'm just here to disconnect the part of your brain that makes you think islam makes any of this happen instead of ALL THE **** THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS
Show me an Islamic country on par with western Europe in terms of social values. Ooops, there aren't any. Imagine that.
do you actually have a disability i need to be sensitive about? because if so now is the time to tell me.
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i'm just here to disconnect the part of your brain that makes you think islam makes any of this happen instead of ALL THE **** THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS
Show me an Islamic country on par with western Europe in terms of social values. Ooops, there aren't any. Imagine that.
do you actually have a disability i need to be sensitive about? because if so now is the time to tell me.
I'd take you a lot more seriously if you actually backed up the "islamic societies are equal" claims with real evidence instead of ad hominem attacks and general trolling.
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i'd take you a lot more seriously if you were able to accurately describe a single claim I'd ever actually made
in fact that sounds like a good idea. could you please outline my argument for me so I can figure out what is getting lost between your eyes and your brain.
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So you don't deny that you've been trolling and making personal attacks?
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And I'm sure we'd all appreciate it if you'd stop acting like an idiot whenever Islam is involved.
What part of "got butt****ed by colonialism" do you not understand?
Go on. I'm curious.
If you can name me country that behaves in the way you describe that wasn't formerly a colony, I will be most impressed.
EDIT: Two post in thirty seconds. wow.
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koshberator, seriously, it is this ****ing simple.
political turmoil, economic failure and the aftershocks of colonialism produce religious fundamentalism. political stability, economic prosperity and regional hegemony produce a golden age - whether for muslims 700 years ago or europeans more recently.
europe suffered through years of religious fundamentalism during the dark ages while the muslims were flourishing. the positions are now reversed. the religion is irrelevant.
So you don't deny that you've been trolling and making personal attacks?
welcome to being liberator. when you act like a religious fanatic unable to comprehend nuance, you'll be treated like a child.
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[size=18]political turmoil, economic failure and the aftershocks of colonialism produce religious fundamentalism. political stability, economic prosperity and regional hegemony produce a golden age - whether for muslims 700 years ago or europeans more recently.[/size]
Turkey WAS the dominant and you could say colonial power in the Islamic world from the fall of Constantinople all the way until the end of World War 1.
If you can name me country that behaves in the way you describe that wasn't formerly a colony, I will be most impressed.
Turkey was never a colony.
EDIT: And I'm sure we'd all appreciate it if you'd stop acting like an idiot whenever Islam is involved.
I'm pointing out something that appearently isn't popular: That islamic societies are, at best, several decades behind, especially in terms of women's rights. Why GB, who flamed one of his former bosses for saying sexist remarks, would then turn around and blindly defend societies that are so blatantly misogynistic is beyond me. To prove it to you, go ahead and post something about some stupid **** christianity has done and I'll be sure to go bash it. Why some of us would give islamic based societies a free pass for bull**** like sharia (which is not practiced in turkey btw) is a mystery to me.
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This is exactly what I was talking about in the Moderating thread.
So what am I expected to do? Lock it for the personal attacks? Leave it for the debate, or possibly the lulz?
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[size=18]political turmoil, economic failure and the aftershocks of colonialism produce religious fundamentalism. political stability, economic prosperity and regional hegemony produce a golden age - whether for muslims 700 years ago or europeans more recently.[/size]
Turkey WAS the dominant and you could say colonial power in the Islamic world from the fall of Constantinople all the way until the end of World War 1.
turkey didn't exist; the ottoman empire was in power during this timeframe
If you can name me country that behaves in the way you describe that wasn't formerly a colony, I will be most impressed.
Turkey was never a colony.
the ottoman empire was an occupied state after it collapsed; that is entirely why the kemalist doctrine came to power
do this now:
in fact that sounds like a good idea. could you please outline my argument for me so I can figure out what is getting lost between your eyes and your brain.
you appear utterly unable to engage with the arguments presented to you; it is as if you do not read what is said, you simply hit 'quote' and fill in what you already believe. this has already led one member to be banned from gendisc; you could well end up the same.
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I'm pointing out something that appearently isn't popular: That islamic societies are, at best, several decades behind, especially in terms of women's rights. Why GB, who flamed one of his former bosses for saying sexist remarks, would then turn around and blindly defend societies that are so blatantly misogynistic is beyond me. To prove it to you, go ahead and post something about some stupid **** christianity has done and I'll be sure to go bash it. Why some of us would give islamic based societies a free pass for bull**** like sharia (which is not practiced in turkey btw) is a mystery to me.
you've now had the answer explained to you in at least three different threads and still you believe that, let me directly quote you
Why GB, who flamed one of his former bosses for saying sexist remarks, would then turn around and blindly defend societies that are so blatantly misogynistic is beyond me
you think that this is what is actually happening and I do not understand the profound disconnect from reality required to believe this is what is being said to you
you are unable to understand that the religious doctrine is a symptom
a well-educated muslim (or christian) from a liberal society with a good economic background will not engage in this behavior. because it is not the religion that matters, it is the sociocultural complex behind it that matters.
islam is not the problem. religion is not the problem. fundamental religion only finds a toehold where immunities have been degraded.
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Not that I'm taking sides in this discussion, but Battuta, it's not necessary to go completely apoplectic and forget how to use grammar in order to participate in a discussion.
Also, pay attention to Flipside.
Also, there was no such thing as the Dark Ages.
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grammar appears fine and apoplexy appears absent, i just dgaf
the dark ages point is a fair one; there was obviously a fair bit actually going on beyond 'bring out your dead', but there's no question that europe fell behind during that period
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you appear utterly unable to engage with the arguments presented to you; it is as if you do not read what is said, you simply hit 'quote' and fill in what you already believe. this has already led one member to be banned from gendisc; you could well end up the same.
Yep, straight from the horses mouth, it's perfectly acceptable for moderators to make personal attacks and troll. I'm going to walk away from this thread for a short time rather than continue to feed GB's trolling.
Not that I'm taking sides in this discussion, but Battuta, it's not necessary to go completely apoplectic and forget how to use grammar in order to participate in a discussion.
Do I sense a Grammar Inquisition? :P :hammer:
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If you think he's trolling then prove him ****ing wrong instead of ignoring everything said to you like Liberator does on a bad day.
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i'm not posting as a moderator here, i'm just posting to draw out the fact that there is apparently no thought behind your beliefs, just blind faith; you're regurgitating something you've been told without criticism or intent to evaluate empirically. as someone who's been engaged in both science and social justice this is profoundly disappointing, exactly the kind of charade that undermines these causes.
as a moderator your behavior concerns me because precedent exists for banning members from gendisc due to exactly similar ****posting and failure to respond to counterarguments. you reap what you sow; if you can't muster a quality response you will be pilloried.
If you think he's trolling then prove him ****ing wrong instead of ignoring everything said to you like Liberator does on a bad day.
qft
bear in mind here that we're dealing with someone who spends so little time reading the things said to him that he actually believed I was a scientologist; as further proof he couldn't be arsed to 'read 500 posts' before replying to them, then got enormously butthurt when the (profoundly influential and ideologically allied) author who ran the blog cleaned up his ****posting. consequences? naaaaah
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Well, the death and all that came near the later half of the Middle Ages. I thought things were a lot better before that.
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ooh and furthermore bear in mind that this man believes that
It's not an assumption, it is an observation based on available literature as well as personal experiences (and the annecdotes of others). It [the referent here is 'islam' - batt] openly expouses all kinds of massive intolerance and their [the referent here can only be taken as 'all muslims - batt] society has not evolved past it. This is a real problem
about every muslim, everywhere; they are all a real problem
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you appear utterly unable to engage with the arguments presented to you; it is as if you do not read what is said, you simply hit 'quote' and fill in what you already believe. this has already led one member to be banned from gendisc; you could well end up the same.
Yep, straight from the horses mouth, it's perfectly acceptable for moderators to make personal attacks and troll. I'm going to walk away from this thread for a short time rather than continue to feed GB's trolling.
What the hell are you talking about? These two posts do not even appear to be connected in any form. Legitimate criticism of your argument is not ad hominem. Do I have to dig out my intro to logic textbook like I did with Kazan again?
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Because Turkey is still a country full of brown people. While not nearly as whackey as several others in the region, they are still behind most other parts of Europe.
Show me a brown person country on par with western Europe in terms of social values. Ooops, there aren't any. Imagine that.
I'm pointing out something that appearently isn't popular: That brown people societies are, at best, several decades behind, especially in terms of women's rights.
See what I did there? You can just as easily blame race instead of religion if you were taking the ridiculously simple view over the cause. So that's why your simplistic argument that Islam is to blame is wrong.
However that's NOT why you're spending the next week unable to post on Gen Disc. Battuta has repeatedly pointed out that he's not saying that the Islamic world has a good human right's record. He repeatedly has said that the bad record is NOT due to religion but due to other factors. You have constantly ignored any attempt to discuss this with him and instead have repeatedly spewed out the same rhetoric over and over again without bothering to check to see if it is called for.
You might have noticed I perma-banned Liberator for doing exactly that. Don't make the same mistake he did. If you want to take part in the threads on a discussion forum you have to be willing to actually discuss the subject, not simply shout over what you think the other person was on about.
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Do I actually need to come to Koth's defense here? Because he's right, Battuta is trolling rather than engaging in discussion. His responses such as "I'm sorry you had to waste words", "can you even read", "do you actually have a disability", "so I can figure out what is getting lost between your eyes and your brain", "someone who spends so little time reading the things said to him", and so forth are personal attacks. In fact, Battuta has spent more time making attacks and throwing fits in this thread than he has made any arguments.
i'm not posting as a moderator here, i'm just posting to draw out the fact that there is apparently no thought behind your beliefs, just blind faith; you're regurgitating something you've been told without criticism or intent to evaluate empirically. as someone who's been engaged in both science and social justice this is profoundly disappointing, exactly the kind of charade that undermines these causes.
I'm sorry but this is patently incorrect. Koth cited the statistics on "belief in evolution" (which, regardless of your position on it, does indicate that Turkish society is not secular). He also cited the article on honor killings, which is specifically due to Islamic custom. In fact, there have actually been a couple of honor killings in the US due to fundamentalist Muslim immigration.
And then, when Koth said "Show me an Islamic country on par with western Europe in terms of social values," which is by definition an empirical question, you ignored it and responded by attacking him.
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Do I actually need to come to Koth's defense here? Because he's right, Battuta is trolling rather than engaging in discussion. His responses such as "I'm sorry you had to waste words", "can you even read", "do you actually have a disability", "so I can figure out what is getting lost between your eyes and your brain", "someone who spends so little time reading the things said to him", and so forth are personal attacks. In fact, Battuta has spent more time making attacks and throwing fits in this thread than he has made any arguments.
these are not personal attacks, they are attempts to figure out why the hell he keeps dodging away from actually debating. if he gives nothing to debate beyond his own personal conduct and constant evasion, what else is there to question?
'throwing fits', lol
you are not that old and naive in the ways of the internet.
I'm sorry but this is patently incorrect. Koth cited the statistics on "belief in evolution" (which, regardless of your position on it, does indicate that Turkish society is not secular). He also cited the article on honor killings, which is specifically due to Islamic custom. In fact, there have actually been a couple of honor killings in the US due to fundamentalist Muslim immigration.
no goob, this is not what happened; what happened is that i tried to explain to koth that none of these points he was bringing up were relevant because I have never argued that Turkish society is secular or that fundamentalist Islamic custom in Turkey (or anywhere else, including the USA) does not lead to atrocious behavior
And then, when Koth said "Show me an Islamic country on par with western Europe in terms of social values," which is by definition an empirical question, you ignored it and responded by attacking him.
you're missing the point as badly as he did, and that's disappointing. the argument here is not about the social values of muslim nations, it's about how those values come to be
kara got it, and he summed it up better than I have
However that's NOT why you're spending the next week unable to post on Gen Disc. Battuta has repeatedly pointed out that he's not saying that the Islamic world has a good human right's record. He repeatedly has said that the bad record is NOT due to religion but due to other factors. You have constantly ignored any attempt to discuss this with him and instead have repeatedly spewed out the same rhetoric over and over again without bothering to check to see if it is called for.
whatever happens in turkey is the result of a complex byplay of sociocultural factors and history. blaming islam alone for it is just as facile and naive as blaming race. when kosh gets over being angry about being banned i'm confident he'll understand, because he's a smart guy. in fact, that reminds me
"I'm sorry you had to waste words"
how is this a personal attack? it's snide, certainly, but it is in no way personal
can you even read
i liked that one, that was good!
do you actually have a disability
that is a perfectly fair question and i'm surprised you'd take it otherwise. i genuinely don't know if kosh has a condition which makes transparent discourse difficult. if the man does, I need to make consideration for that. are we supposed to force people to hide it?
so I can figure out what is getting lost between your eyes and your brain
three posters (myself inclusive) have now expressed confusion as to the disconnect between the content of posts kosh replied to and the content of his own replies; again, seems reasonable
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I'm sorry but this is patently incorrect. Koth cited the statistics on "belief in evolution" (which, regardless of your position on it, does indicate that Turkish society is not secular). He also cited the article on honor killings, which is specifically due to Islamic custom. In fact, there have actually been a couple of honor killings in the US due to fundamentalist Muslim immigration.
-rep for posting ****. This doesn't follow at all.
Battuta says he is posting to draw out Kosh's inability to form an argument coherently or to engage in critical thought. This is backed up by Karaj's post in which Kosh proceeds to make numerous uncritical and painfully uninformed comments about Islam.
Goober says that Battuta is posting...uh, I don't even know how Goob's post is related to what he's quoting here.
In fact I think Goob's actually doing the same thing Kosh is and missing the point entirely in exactly the same fashion. Can we ban him from GD too?
EDIT: As far as I can tell, Battman did not actually edit this post in any way, so I don't know what that's about and take full responsibility for its contents.
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if it makes you happy, goob - and i think it will - i'd be as quick to spring to the defense of christianity, which in its delivered form is a religion about acceptance, forgiveness and universal mercy. just as with islam, its more disgusting fundamentalist forms spring up due to sociopolitical factors, not because of a flaw in the theology itself.
and i dunno, perhaps i pushed a bit too hard, i'm open to that - but it's profoundly frustrating to have complex, nuanced points repeatedly ignored in favor of responses that have nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand. the question of whether or not a global mod is also allowed to call people on their **** is only relevant when the global mod starts using their power in said context, and i didn't do that (heeeere)
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I suppose, in context, you have to ask yourself, if this had happened in the US (or, indeed, almost any supposedly 'advanced' country), would the outcry have been any less?
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I'm sorry but this is patently incorrect. Koth cited the statistics on "belief in evolution" (which, regardless of your position on it, does indicate that Turkish society is not secular). He also cited the article on honor killings, which is specifically due to Islamic custom. In fact, there have actually been a couple of honor killings in the US due to fundamentalist Muslim immigration.
All of which were arguments against a strawman. He was arguing (as he has repeatedly) that Islam is the problem in those countries. There was no attempt to engage in discussion with the people telling him it's not Islam but other factors. He just repeatedly pointed out the situation and said "See, Islam is to blame!"
That's why I pointed out the fact you could make a racist argument using the exact same data he provided. And you'd be wrong for exactly the same reasons.
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right, that ^
fundamental islam could very well be the problem right now in these countries, absolutely, but that's like saying 'the patient is bleeding to death' after they've been shot a few times; the real question is 'who shot them and why?' fundamentalism is only a symptom
kara's doing a better job of this than me so i'm off to nap, and fwiw kosh, i apologize if i pushed things too personally, but there are Muslims reading these threads who are hurt by this type of generalization
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Do I actually need to come to Koth's defense here? Because he's right, Battuta is trolling rather than engaging in discussion. His responses such as "I'm sorry you had to waste words", "can you even read", "do you actually have a disability", "so I can figure out what is getting lost between your eyes and your brain", "someone who spends so little time reading the things said to him", and so forth are personal attacks. In fact, Battuta has spent more time making attacks and throwing fits in this thread than he has made any arguments.
these are not personal attacks
No, those are, in fact, personal attacks. (How can you accuse Kosh of not reading what you wrote if you don't seem to be reading them either?)
, they are attempts to figure out why the hell he keeps dodging away from actually debating. if he gives nothing to debate beyond his own personal conduct and constant evasion, what else is there to question?
If you wanted to figure out why he kept dodging, as you say, then wouldn't it have been better to specifically ask him? Re-post a point you made, and then ask him to respond specifically to one of your points. But you didn't do that; you kept carrying on with different insults.
no goob, this is not what happened; what happened is that i tried to explain to koth that none of these points he was bringing up were relevant because I have never argued that Turkish society is secular or that fundamentalist Islamic custom in Turkey (or anywhere else, including the USA) does not lead to atrocious behavior
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Let me post this again, restoring the part that you clipped:
i'm not posting as a moderator here, i'm just posting to draw out the fact that there is apparently no thought behind your beliefs, just blind faith; you're regurgitating something you've been told without criticism or intent to evaluate empirically. as someone who's been engaged in both science and social justice this is profoundly disappointing, exactly the kind of charade that undermines these causes.
I'm sorry but this is patently incorrect. Koth cited the statistics on "belief in evolution" (which, regardless of your position on it, does indicate that Turkish society is not secular). He also cited the article on honor killings, which is specifically due to Islamic custom. In fact, there have actually been a couple of honor killings in the US due to fundamentalist Muslim immigration.
And then, when Koth said "Show me an Islamic country on par with western Europe in terms of social values," which is by definition an empirical question, you ignored it and responded by attacking him.
no goob, this is not what happened; what happened is that i tried to explain to koth that none of these points he was bringing up were relevant because I have never argued that Turkish society is secular or that fundamentalist Islamic custom in Turkey (or anywhere else, including the USA) does not lead to atrocious behavior
Or, to summarize:
Battuta: Kosh is basing his argument on blind faith, without evaluating it empirically.
Goober: Actually that's incorrect; Kosh supported his argument empirically in at least two different ways, belief in evolution and honor killings.
Battuta: no goob, this is not what happened; what happened is that i tried to explain to koth that none of these points he was bringing up were relevant because I have never argued that Turkish society is secular or that fundamentalist Islamic custom in Turkey (or anywhere else, including the USA) does not lead to atrocious behavior
I fail to see how this point addressed in any way the point about empiricism.
you're missing the point as badly as he did, and that's disappointing. the argument here is not about the social values of muslim nations, it's about how those values come to be
kara got it, and he summed it up better than I have
Actually, kara made the same mistake you did. Here is a restatement of the argument:
Kosh: Turkey's problems, such as its human rights record, are due to Islam.
Battuta: Turkey's problems, such as its human rights record, are not due to Islam but are due to other causes.
That seems to me to be a legitimate topic of discussion. But you and karajorma have both made the mistake of taking your own position as an assumed premise of the argument: Turkey's problems are not due to Islam because they are not due to Islam. This is a logical fallacy.
whatever happens in turkey is the result of a complex byplay of sociocultural factors and history. blaming islam alone for it is just as facile and naive as blaming race.
Then argue to that effect instead of making personal attacks. You said you're "a pro total expert on Turkey", so demonstrate that. In the past you've cited papers and studies in support of your arguments. Here the most you've done is link to two articles on Wikipedia.
It is also important to note that Islam is a much more, yes, nuanced and complicated issue than a simple checkbox on a "what is your religion" questionnaire. It has a large history of societal, cultural, and religious development behind it. So the argument that Islam is responsible for such-and-such is not prima facie unreasonable. It may be incorrect, but it is not something you just write off.
if it makes you happy, goob - and i think it will - i'd be as quick to spring to the defense of christianity
I appreciate that, but this thread is not an "All Teams At War" between Islam, Christianity, and secularism. You'll note that Kosh said he'd be just as quick to bash Christianity. I'm not particularly fond of Kosh, but I'm defending him here because he seems to have been monkeyed unjustly.
I'm sorry but this is patently incorrect. Koth cited the statistics on "belief in evolution" (which, regardless of your position on it, does indicate that Turkish society is not secular). He also cited the article on honor killings, which is specifically due to Islamic custom. In fact, there have actually been a couple of honor killings in the US due to fundamentalist Muslim immigration.
All of which were arguments against a strawman. He was arguing (as he has repeatedly) that Islam is the problem in those countries. There was no attempt to engage in discussion with the people telling him it's not Islam but other factors. He just repeatedly pointed out the situation and said "See, Islam is to blame!"
The problem is, that's not a strawman. If anything is a strawman it was your unfounded reduction of Islam, a complex societal, cultural, and religious development with extensive history, to a simple attribute such as skin color. By monkeying Kosh you are calling his entire position invalid and saying that he cannot participate in the thread without accepting Battuta's side of the argument. That is a logical fallacy, as I described above.
fundamental islam could very well be the problem right now in these countries, absolutely, but that's like saying 'the patient is bleeding to death' after they've been shot a few times; the real question is 'who shot them and why?' fundamentalism is only a symptom
But Kosh is arguing that fundamentalist Islam is the cause, not the symptom. Which is part of the premise that you're assuming.
kara's doing a better job of this than me so i'm off to nap, and fwiw kosh, i apologize if i pushed things too personally, but there are Muslims reading these threads who are hurt by this type of generalization
Heh. You think Christians aren't hurt by (to pick on Nemesis6 now) Nemesis6's frequent posting of articles hostile to Christianity, complete with his own derogatory commentary?
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*good post*
Thank you, Goober. Battuta, even though you always claim to be emotionally detached from the the debates you involve yourself in, there is a recent undercurrent of what feels very much like seething rage in your recent comments (not only here, but elsewhere as well). While reading this thread, my finger hovered dangerously close to the lock button every time one of your posts came up; whether it was due to the underlying assertion that you just know better than other posters here*, or due to the fact that your ignorance of the rules of proper capitalization made your posts sound like some rambling monotone in my head, I cannot say.
*A failing that I have in abundance myself, I have to admit
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Tell you what. I completely disagree with Goober's assessment of the situation and I can point to several places where Kosh has completely ignored Battuta's points in order to restate the exact same argument that no one was actually making. However in the interests of fairness (and not wasting an hour of my life rehashing an argument) I'll give him the same chance I gave Liberator. I'll remove him from the political prisoners group and give him one chance to make a sensible post on why Islam and not the other factors mentioned are the problem here.
If I see rhetoric on why Islam is the cause again, back to the week off.
Kosh, you're on.
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Sad thing is, I only posted it because I found it funny.
I'll ask again, if this had happened in the US, would there have been less of an outcry? If we are to laugh at the Turkish for being 'low on the social scale' because of this incident, then we must also turn an eye to ourselves, and I think you'll find that America or the UK's reaction to such a thing would be no different, so I must admit, I'm still struggling to identify what this behaviour is indicative of simply because it takes place in Turkey.
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Tell you what. I completely disagree with Goober's assessment of the situation and I can point to several places where Kosh has completely ignored Battuta's points in order to restate the exact same argument that no one was actually making. However in the interests of fairness (and not wasting an hour of my life rehashing an argument) I'll give him the same chance I gave Liberator. I'll remove him from the political prisoners group and give him one chance to make a sensible post on why Islam and not the other factors mentioned are the problem here.
If I see rhetoric on why Islam is the cause again, back to the week off.
Kosh, you're on.
I won't, because I said I would stay away this thread and so I will, with this post being the only exception. I'm not falling for it.
What is disgusting is that Battuta tried use having a disability as an insult, and for the record I do have one, but neverminding that how is it that certain groups are zealously defended to the point of absurdity and beyond but others get nothing? That is the ultimate problem with leftism, if you aren't in politically favored groups you're fair game.
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What is disgusting is that Battuta tried use having a disability as an insult
Wrong again. He asked cause he wanted to know if you have a disability that he should be taking into account. He wanted to know if there was some reason why you were so unable to grasp the difference between what he was saying and what you were replying to. I was actually tempted to tell him but I don't betray a confidence lightly.
I wouldn't expect you to know that except for the fact he's flat out stated it in the thread.
and for the record I do have one
I'm well aware of that and I will make certain allowances for it. But you don't get a free pass because of it. I banned Liberator for the same behaviour I banned (and will continue to ban) you for.
I won't, because I said I would stay away this thread and so I will, with this post being the only exception. I'm not falling for it.
I'd have been perfectly happy to let you go as long as you didn't bring the topic up again and then walk away or ignore it when asked to defend it. But.......
but neverminding that how is it that certain groups are zealously defended to the point of absurdity and beyond but others get nothing? That is the ultimate problem with leftism, if you aren't in politically favored groups you're fair game.
Oh no you don't. This is where your earlier comment about leaving the thread falls apart. You don't get to come into the thread, claim you're leaving, post something this absurd and then walk out again. That's exactly the behaviour Goober took exception to last time you were monkeyed. Who exactly are you claiming is being discriminated against?
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ok, so this is a really popular argument on the Internet lately, one groups will be anti-Islam, saying that Islam is the source of a bunch of nasty ****, and the other side will say that Islam is not the problem, there are non-crazy Muslims, and all the countries involved are ****ty for other reasons.
now, "Islam is the problem" is not exactly the position of most of the (not fundi christian) anti-Islam people, everyone is well aware of the golden age, and it proves that a non-****ty Islamic culture is possible. a good analogy is pointing out that the Christian world used to be really ****ty but about 3/400 years ago parts of the Christian world started to move away from the **** inducing parts of the prevailing Christian dogma. now, first off, let us come to recognize that there is a Islamic community (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah) and culture, granted one half of this wants to kill the other half, but when push comes to shove they will quickly unite as an 'US' if a suitable 'THEM' materializes. now there are a lot of no so nice things that happen in the countries where this culture is dominant, and many of these problems will show up in immigrant populations from these regions. some people simplify this correlation to the religion in speech, when technically it is a wide spread fundamentalist culture that is actually to blame. the problem is that Islam has some aspects to it that make it particularly vulnerable to this fundamentalism problem, these are aspects that it shares with Christianity, however it has been shown that these problems are not insurmountable, as Christianity has done a fairly good job recently on ignoring it's more negative aspects, and Islam has had periods of great intellectual development where it did as well. but to say that it's just the fundamentalists ignores the pervasiveness of the culture that so easily produces those fundamentalists. not all Muslims are crazy, but there is a pervasive culture that unites many parts of the Islamic world, and that culture, currently, leans people toward the crazy end of the pool.
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I don't think anyone is saying it's just the fundamentalists. What I've been saying (and I suspect Battuta is too) is that there are historical and political reasons why people in the Islamic world are listening more to the fundamentalists than they did in the past. Same as there are reasons why the Christian world listens to their own fundamentalists less than they used to.
Kosh however seems to want to blame the religion itself. And that's why he's having a problem here. Cause the reason why people listen to the fundamentalists more isn't something that can only happen to Islam. As you said it shares the same root issue with Christianity. To be honest I doubt those two are alone. You can get people to listen to fundamentalist nonsense from any religion or even if they have non. All that changes is the ease with which you can persuade them to listen.
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if being muslim made you **** at stuff explain how greek civilization survived the middle ages
You're not usually wrong but this does need a fix. Greece isn't an islamic country - it never was. Their predominant religion is Greek Orthodox, which is actually a form of Christianity.
I do agree with your point, though.
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well, there are some aspects of Islam that do make it more prone to certain problems than, lets say Buddhism, but Christianity shares many of these aspects as well.
and I do not get the sense that kosh is blaming Islam directly, he says things like "Islam" and "Islamic societies" but I feel as though he is referring to the currently dominant culture rather than the religion per se. I could be mistaken though, but that seems like such a nonsensical position that it doesn't occur to me until you point it out..
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Yes but the problem is that the point that it isn't the religion has been pointed out numerous times and not once has he said "You're right, I'm on about the culture not the religion."
It's that very fact that got him banned. All he'd have to do is prove he ISN'T blaming the religion itself. But instead we get posts like this one.
i'm just here to disconnect the part of your brain that makes you think islam makes any of this happen instead of ALL THE **** THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS
Show me an Islamic country on par with western Europe in terms of social values. Ooops, there aren't any. Imagine that.
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yeah, but he acknowledged the golden age, if he truly felt that the religion it's self was the problem, he would have tried to rationalize that away some how, rather than giving a "yeah, I know, I'm not an idiot" type response. he mentioned how it didn't relate to the current situation, an acceptance that Islam (whatever he means by use of this word) can change.
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So we have no idea whether he feels Islam itself has changed (i.e all Muslims are going to be a problem now that it isn't the Golden Age) or the culture surrounding the religion has changed or if he feels it's a mixture of the two. He gave us nothing. Despite being asked several time on several threads besides this one.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=73724.msg1455580#msg1455580
On this thread for instance we have Battuta giving a calm, measured response to Kosh only for him to ignore it and start again from scratch on this thread.
And the less said about this thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=67446.0) (especially the flamebait title) the better. Hell, even High Max knew he was wrong. :rolleyes:
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On the original topic, the guy himself starred in the movie? Right on!
Had this happened here, it would have been a death wish for any faculty around here. Sacking the professors / supervisors is the right thing to do in my opinion.
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if being muslim made you **** at stuff explain how greek civilization survived the middle ages
You're not usually wrong but this does need a fix. Greece isn't an islamic country - it never was. Their predominant religion is Greek Orthodox, which is actually a form of Christianity.
I do agree with your point, though.
you're right, but that's not the point I'm making - 'greek civilization' as a cohesive entity, with all its philosophy and progress, was partially preserved in the Muslim parts of the world when things went kinda weird in europe
What is disgusting is that Battuta tried use having a disability as an insult, and for the record I do have one, but neverminding that how is it that certain groups are zealously defended to the point of absurdity and beyond but others get nothing? That is the ultimate problem with leftism, if you aren't in politically favored groups you're fair game.
it wasn't the most graciously delivered question, but it was a genuine question; i was asking if there was something I needed to take into account here that could explain the trouble you were having.
now i know
If you wanted to figure out why he kept dodging, as you say, then wouldn't it have been better to specifically ask him? Re-post a point you made, and then ask him to respond specifically to one of your points. But you didn't do that; you kept carrying on with different insults.
wait are you even reading this thread, i did exactly that - exactly that!
of course i guess it's also possible that this was done in one of the two previous threadnoughts we've had on this topic where I was perfectly reasonable with Kosh
by 'possible' I mean 'absolutely certain'
look at the thread kara just linked - http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=73724.msg1455580#msg1455580 - and there's been another clone of it as well recently
the rest of your post is truly bizarre; you've been told more than once now why Kosh's points weren't being directly addressed; they were never points in contention and had as much to do with the argument as the assertion that sheep are fluffy and sort of off-white
Heh. You think Christians aren't hurt by (to pick on Nemesis6 now) Nemesis6's frequent posting of articles hostile to Christianity, complete with his own derogatory commentary?
no, i definitely think they are, which might be why I've been all over him about it and suggested the same treatment Kosh is getting
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Heh. You think Christians aren't hurt by (to pick on Nemesis6 now) Nemesis6's frequent posting of articles hostile to Christianity, complete with his own derogatory commentary?
no, i definitely think they are, which might be why I've been all over him about it and suggested the same treatment Kosh is getting
I know I sure as hell get pissed off about it. At least he sometimes tries to back up his arguments with more than rhetoric.
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So where do you have to study in the United States to make Pron movies for your PHD...
... the more i think of it the more i can see all kinds of people (especially mothers) displaying quite some outrage... and once the media gets involved....
seriously... would it be all that different? After all, we're talking about a country with a long Puritan history that is often chided as "Land of the Prude" across the world ...
I really do wonder how a land where a peek of boob on television causes national outrage would react to Pron movies at universities once some righteous mommies got wind of it and the media started to smell a story mh ?;)
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GB's arguement has some merit. But this is an inquisition. Some of Kosh's comments were offensive, but this reaction has gone a little too far. Let's not be like Kazan.
And General Battuta, what the hell happened to you? When I first read those posts my first reaction was to wonder if you were drunk - because it was so out of character for you. And that disability comment was way out of line. What happened to the calm and amiable Battuta, the voice of reason? Seriously, what the hell? Calm down man. He isn't worth it.
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That Batttuta, I've long come to suspect, is dead.
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tee hee
also i don't drink or drug, i am 100% straight edge like minor threat
And that disability comment was way out of line
man, you ask a simple question to try to understand why someone's behaving some way so you can avoid making horrifyingly offensive remarks, and suddenly everyone's all up in your front yard
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What he said was quite offensive upon further review, but this has gone too far. Don't flip out. You're an admin. Act like one. You know, like you used to be.
Sigh. In the olden days someone like Rictor would shut both of you up with actual, reasonable arguments, and I wouldn't be feeling like this forum has gone Lord of the Flies.
My mistake for coming back. Bye.
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maybe you're right
maybe it's time to go back to the light
i've seen so much
but yeah, make sure 'further review' includes the previous threadnoughts on this topic where the same arguments were presented much more reasonably, i'm not sure why people expect the same level of calm on the third go round
edit: oh he ragequit, but i'm not even an admin!
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:(
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i'm not sure why people expect the same level of calm on the third go round
Because as a moderator that is the standard you are held to.
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only in relation to using moderator mojo; as far as i'm concerned if i don't bring the gun closet into the debate i can do whatever i please
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I'd honestly have to disagree with that. Moderators on any forum are held as being representative on that forum as a whole just by virtue of holding that position. In other words, if you as a Global Moderator fly off the handle in some particular topic (and I'm not saying you yourself have), you're sending the implicit message that it's okay for any normal user to do the exact same thing, which is kind of a Bad Thing in general. Your actual mod powers don't even have to enter into the equation...the simple fact that you are a staff member of the website holds you to something of a higher standard than your Joe Everyposter. That's especially true since your Global Moderator badge sticks with you wherever you post, unlike we mere folder mods, who get to go a bit more incognito. :p
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you are probably the correctness
anyway i have had a nice chat with kosh and everything is fine, so
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Horray.
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please don't go!
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I have not been following General Discussion as much lately as I used to, so I am not familiar with the two previous "threadnoughts" on the subject.
And now I'm curious about Kosh's disability, but being respectful of his privacy I won't inquire further.
Well, everyone seems to have hugged and made nice now. Maybe the thread should be closed. Or split from the fourth post.
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Splitting would be better.
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Splitlocked for great Headache relief.