Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: TopAce on January 09, 2011, 05:13:22 pm
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We do need moderators, it's obvious. However, the admins should be much more selective in granting moderating rights. If a so-called "moderator" is a self-obsessed, intolerant twat, then he has nothing to do among the moderators. They give a very bad impression about the forum and the community as a whole.
And we also need a lot more bans to get trolls and flamers out of the way.
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We do need moderators, it's obvious. However, the admins should be much more selective in granting moderating rights. If a so-called "moderator" is a self-obsessed, intolerant twat, then he has nothing to do among the moderators. They give a very bad impression about the forum and the community as a whole.
And we also need a lot more bans to get trolls and flamers out of the way.
I ask this as a genuine personal favor: could you lay off The_E and maybe send something kind his way? I think he would appreciate it right now. He's a human being too.
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He's a human being too.
He didn't show humanity to Deka, Mika, and the one guy who tried to help, was wrong, and was told by The E "to stop further attempts at troubleshooting." Not quite a moderator-like attitude, at all.
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He's a human being too.
He didn't show humanity to Deka, Mika, and the one guy who tried to help, was wrong, and was told by The E "to stop further attempts at troubleshooting." Not quite a moderator-like attitude, at all.
He can definitely be blunt, he knows this, he's not always happy about it. But in the scope of things, these are minor slights on a forum about a video game. I don't know how much he wants me to say but what the hell, he's not having the greatest time right now, and enmity from anyone, even a person on a forum about a video game, really doesn't help. Compassion does.
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He can definitely be blunt, he knows this, he's not always happy about it.
Then why post at all? Or pay attention to what he posts? Don't tell me that writing "**** off" or "complete and utter ****" doesn't strike him as too offensive.
these are minor slights on a forum about a video game.
So, destroying four years of hard work, plus ruining Mika's fanfic are minor slights? I probably wouldn't even mention him, but it is not GenDisc where he's causing trouble. He attacks community members through their CONTRIBUTIONS to FreeSpace modding.
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This clearly isn't going to go anywhere productive, compassionate or helpful. This makes me sad.
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I haven't seen the thread involved, but I do recall that, with regards to models, there used to be an expectation that if you put up a model for public inspection, you had to expect the rough as well as the smooth. People used to actively defend that position, that criticism, both positive and negative were allowed so long as it was constructive.
If people were providing constructive criticism, i.e. suggesting other options, explaining their opinions etc, then it is up to the author how they recieve that criticism.
However, as I said before, I haven't seen the thread involved, so I cannot comment beyond that.
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these are minor slights on a forum about a video game.
So, destroying four years of hard work, plus ruining Mika's fanfic are minor slights?
In a word, yes.
You enlist a reviewer for the strength of their cruelty, not because they are a kind or nice person. If something is in fact a horribly buggy piece of **** and the people reviewing it are not willing to tell you so, they have done you a great disservice.
And I can't even find Mika's fanfic to discuss this with you. How old are the grudges you are holding on someone else's behalf, here? Six months at least?
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Relentless was....not finished. Anyone could have pointed that out and thereby destroyed it. The_E had nothing to do with it; log on to IRC and ask 'is relentless good' and...well, you'll see. The_E did not do that.
Mika never even wrote a FreeSpace fanfic. :confused:
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Perhaps he means 'Mikes?' :confused:
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Perhaps he means 'Mikes?' :confused:
No, Mika. here[/quote]. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=72843.msg1441656#msg1441656)
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That's not a fanfic, it's just a piece of writing - fanfic in English means a piece of writing done in a setting created by someone else, usually fictional.
The_E's response was also pretty detailed and well-thought-out; he critiques specific portions and addresses the flaws in them in a way I'd expect in any writer's workshop (and I've done a few.) He also responded reasonably and generously to you:
First of all, if I am posting on a thread like this, I am acting as a normal board member first. You, and anyone else, are free to rip me or my posts apart as much as you feel necessary. I promise I won't take it personal. Much. If you really think I crossed a line, that's what the report function is for.
showing more consideration for your position than you're showing for his.
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Which is why that thread was one of the very few in the last few months that I have felt I had to lock. At the start of page 7 I asked people to calm down, by the bottom of the page, everyone was getting heated again, so I locked it. It wasn't a comment on anyone posting, it was just that fact that this was obviously not a topic that people could discuss calmly, the difference of opinion was too strong.
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No, Mika. here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=72843.msg1441656#msg1441656)
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[/quote]
The problems pointed out were cognizant and a number of them appeared to intentional ad hoc assumptions headed towards "chosen to pretend to believe" territory. I do not know anyone who responds well to that.
Only one of the accusations leveled at Mika did he actively and conclusively deny, and it belonged to me. He did honestly remind me of Hemmingway, and it apparently was not intentional. This was accepted and we moved on.
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Sorry to drag this back up, but this needs a reply, I think.
We do need moderators, it's obvious. However, the admins should be much more selective in granting moderating rights. If a so-called "moderator" is a self-obsessed, intolerant twat, then he has nothing to do among the moderators. They give a very bad impression about the forum and the community as a whole.
And we also need a lot more bans to get trolls and flamers out of the way.
Self-obsessed twat, yes, that's me. I do take exception to "intolerant" though.
He can definitely be blunt, he knows this, he's not always happy about it.
Then why post at all? Or pay attention to what he posts? Don't tell me that writing "**** off" or "complete and utter ****" doesn't strike him as too offensive.
Of course it's ****ing offensive. That's the bloody point.
these are minor slights on a forum about a video game.
So, destroying four years of hard work, plus ruining Mika's fanfic are minor slights? I probably wouldn't even mention him, but it is not GenDisc where he's causing trouble. He attacks community members through their CONTRIBUTIONS to FreeSpace modding.
Wait, so mentioning bugs in a campaign release and providing fixes for the issues found, and offering to help with the fixing counts as "destroying four years of hard work"? I do seem to recall that I even helped to fix errors in YOUR campaign. You know, the one that you want everyone to forget about.
Second, if criticizing someone else's fiction on the basis of writing style and content is "ruining" it, then I will gladly obliterate any writing you happen to throw my way.
Same goes for Infamus' "contributions" to BP canon, where I provided a comprehensive critique after being called out on being overly dismissive (I believe that's what you referring to). You might also be referring to one of the several "Stormy Fairweather has a problem with being moderated" threads, in which I believe the reaction was somewhat justified.
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Wait, so mentioning bugs in a campaign release and providing fixes for the issues found, and offering to help with the fixing counts as "destroying four years of hard work"?
Interesting that there were others who reported the campaign was playable with the intended build. You went straight for the _d build.
I do seem to recall that I even helped to fix errors in YOUR campaign.
Having some small PCX files isn't an error. It's an error in your book, but the campaign was perfectly playable, with and without your "fixes." Those aren't huge skyboxes that I included in BMP format, but a couple mostly 64x64/128x128 old maps. It's so typical of you that you opened the VP files just to find these "errors." You were interested to further your "perfect releases" agenda, not in playing the campaign.
Second, if criticizing someone else's fiction on the basis of writing style and content is "ruining" it
The problem is the way you put your criticism. It's not the content of what you said, but its style.
then I will gladly obliterate any writing you happen to throw my way.
As if it were any different with anyone else's fiction, or any contribution to the community. You continue to show zero tolerance to anything and anyone that doesn't meet your narrow, egocentric standards. If the thread needs to burn because of The E's dislike and his all-pertaining hatred for other human beings, then so be it.
Same goes for Infamus' "contributions" to BP canon, where I provided a comprehensive critique after being called out on being overly dismissive (I believe that's what you referring to).
I have no idea what you're referring to.
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Wow, this is just uncalled for and cruel. TopAce, you're better than this. The man is (redacted for The_E's privacy?) and all you can do is talk about what a **** person he is?
He has every right in the world to point out technical problems; how can people learn to avoid mistakes unless they're told about them?
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I will continue to speak to The E like this. As soon as he starts to show respect to others, so will I start to show respect for him. Interesting that his comments ("**** off," "bull****," "refrain from troubleshooting") aren't construed as uncalled for and cruel.
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He does and he has, he's even made it perfectly clear he's open to criticism from you, something I doubt you'd offer him. Is this some kind of vendetta because he did something to you? What's actually going on here?
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Wait, so mentioning bugs in a campaign release and providing fixes for the issues found, and offering to help with the fixing counts as "destroying four years of hard work"?
Interesting that there were others who reported the campaign was playable with the intended build. You went straight for the _d build.
Yes. Because I sort of expect any release to be reasonably tested and warning- and error-free. Because, as you may recall, I am a developer and one of the troubleshooters here. Less errors in released campaigns means less work trying to figure out why users have problems.
I do seem to recall that I even helped to fix errors in YOUR campaign.
Having some small PCX files isn't an error. It's an error in your book, but the campaign was perfectly playable, with and without your "fixes." Those aren't huge skyboxes that I included in BMP format, but a couple mostly 64x64/128x128 old maps. It's so typical of you that you opened the VP files just to find these "errors." You were interested to further your "perfect releases" agenda, not in playing the campaign.
Arguably true. Because, arrogant human being that I am, I sort of expect people to follow the same quality standards that I have. And, again, I am a developer. I will go into the nuts and bolts of technical stuff at the drop of a hat.
Second, if criticizing someone else's fiction on the basis of writing style and content is "ruining" it
The problem is the way you put your criticism. It's not the content of what you said, but its style.
Right. Unlike mika, whom you have chosen to defend from the evil, power-abusing asshole that I seem to be in your eyes, I prefer clarity of expression and directness over being nice for the sake of not hurting feelings. It's an approach that, while certainly not the most polite, is also remarkably devoid of misunderstandings. Which is something that I believe to be a good thing.
then I will gladly obliterate any writing you happen to throw my way.
As if it were any different with anyone else's fiction, or any contribution to the community. You continue to show zero tolerance to anything and anyone that doesn't meet your narrow, egocentric standards. If the thread needs to burn because of The E's dislike and his all-pertaining hatred for other human beings, then so be it.
Completely true. I have narrow definitions of what is good and what is not, and I will continue to apply them.
HOWEVER.
You make it sound as if I would pop up in every release thread, always being negative, always needlessly bad-mouthing stuff. I submit to you that that is not the ****ing case. You make it sound as if I am using my position as Global Moderator, or my badge collection, as hammers to bludgeon any word of dissent. While I certainly am biased towards seeing myself in a good light, I do not believe that to be the case.
Same goes for Infamus' "contributions" to BP canon, where I provided a comprehensive critique after being called out on being overly dismissive (I believe that's what you referring to).
I have no idea what you're referring to.
You don't? I would have thought that, in your self-appointed job of raging on behalf of those wronged by me, you surely would have noticed this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=71409.msg1411914#msg1411914).
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Wow, this is just uncalled for and cruel. TopAce, you're better than this. The man is (redacted for The_E's privacy?) and all you can do is talk about what a **** person he is?
I agree.
Please man, resolving whatever beef you have with him is something I think that should A) be done privately and B) be done with the intention of reaching a compromise, at least for the meantime. I don't want to try and get involved either and become part of some kind of 'dogpile', but to do this kind of stuff in public is just as bad for your reputation as it is for his, in my opinion.
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Yes. Because I sort of expect any release to be reasonably tested and warning- and error-free. Because, as you may recall, I am a developer and one of the troubleshooters here. Less errors in released campaigns means less work trying to figure out why users have problems.
No one called for you to point out how many mistakes there were in the tables. No one. No one asked you to bother with the campaign. It is only YOUR mania. Your conviction. The thread went downhill right on launch because YOU DECIDED your debug build mania is superior to anyone else's desire to PLAY, not find errors in, the campaign.
You don't? I would have thought that, in your self-appointed job of raging on behalf of those wronged by me, you surely would have noticed this.
I have better things to do than follow your HLP "career." I've never had any doubt that you crossed the line more often than I saw.
Is this some kind of vendetta because he did something to you?
I am a concerned contributor to the community. If any of my further releases - and I have some plans - is threatened by an individual, I will raise my voice.
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Relentless was bad. It was bad. The_E's debugging had nothing to do with that. The entire IRC channel - 50+ people - was abuzz with how bad it was. Axem was there, Spoon was there, AndrewofDoom, we were all there, and we all agreed that something had gone very wrong in the development process. You could press Alt-J on every mission and win the entire campaign.
You can't blame The_E for that.
He has every right to point out to people the errors that are inevitably going to cause dozens of 'help me' threads, so they can be fixed. The entire SCP threatened to drop support for The Babylon Project because they hadn't fixed their debug errors. If you're worried about threats to your future releases, why aren't you worried about that?
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post updated
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Relentless was bad. It was bad. The_E's debugging had nothing to do with that. The entire IRC channel - 50+ people - was abuzz with how bad it was. Axem was there, Spoon was there, AndrewofDoom, we were all there, and we all agreed that something had gone very wrong in the development process. You could press Alt-J on every mission and win the entire campaign.
That's mission design-related, I'm talking about stability. It either runs with standard installation procedures, or it doesn't. Unless you mean that before The E's post, there were technical- (not mission-design quality) related discussion on IRC. I don't know what's going on on IRC. I only saw the release thread.
If that's the case, then I admit that my assessment of the Relentless thread was wrong. And I apologize for it. However, I still think that his handling of Mika's writing and his general behavior towards other members is out-of-place and offensive.
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Yes. Because I sort of expect any release to be reasonably tested and warning- and error-free. Because, as you may recall, I am a developer and one of the troubleshooters here. Less errors in released campaigns means less work trying to figure out why users have problems.
No one called for you to point out how many mistakes there were in the tables. No one. No one asked you to bother with the campaign. It is only YOUR mania. Your conviction. The thread went downhill right on launch because YOU DECIDED your debug build mania is superior to anyone else's desire to PLAY, not find errors in, the campaign.
wat.
Excuse me.
WHAT?
Let me check my eyesight here.
Did you just say that mods should not be tested for technical issues and bugs? Did you just honestly express the belief that mods should only be judged on the quality of their gameplay and storytelling, with potentially gamebreaking technical issues not factoring into it?
You don't? I would have thought that, in your self-appointed job of raging on behalf of those wronged by me, you surely would have noticed this.
I have better things to do than follow your HLP "career." I've never had any doubt that you crossed the line more often than I saw.
You do seem to be more than willing to hold grudges that even the people directly involved in seem to have abandoned, just for the sake of holding grudges.
Is this some kind of vendetta because he did something to you?
I am a concerned contributor to the community. If any of my further releases - and I have some plans - is threatened by an individual, I will raise my voice.
Good luck with them. Seriously.
But consider this: If you really think that any criticism levelled against a release is destroying/ruining said release, how in hell do you ever expect to get any honest reviews? Release threads are, I believe, not only a place to post praise, but also a place to criticize. How else are creators able to improve their work, if all they get is constant praise? Why should I soften the blow of my criticisms, if said softening only serves to make the message unclear?
As was said somewhere upthread, we're all adults (or close to it, anyway). If you are so thin-skinned that a bit of direct, blunt criticism is completely shattering your ego, you maybe should reconsider your involvement in internet fora.
That's mission design-related, I'm talking about stability. It either runs with standard installation procedures, or it doesn't. Unless you mean that before The E's post, there were technical- (not mission-design quality) related discussion on IRC. I don't know what's going on on IRC. I only saw the release thread.
The release thread explicitly stated that the campaign was supposed to work on 3.6.10+. So, being the responsible developer that I am, I ran it through the .12 RC that was public at the time. Because I figured that, hey, it's tested, it's been in development for a long time, I won't see anything critical. But then, I did. I even went back to .10 debug, and ran into many of the same issues, which to me was a clear indicator that testing was not as comprehensive as it could (and should) have been.
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You do seem to be more than willing to hold grudges that even the people directly involved in seem to have abandoned, just for the sake of holding grudges.
Yes, Deka left. Ragequit.
But consider this: If you really think that any criticism levelled against a release is destroying/ruining said release, how in hell do you ever expect to get any honest reviews? Release threads are, I believe, not only a place to post praise, but also a place to criticize. How else are creators able to improve their work, if all they get is constant praise? Why should I soften the blow of my criticisms, if said softening only serves to make the message unclear?
As was said somewhere upthread, we're all adults (or close to it, anyway). If you are so thin-skinned that a bit of direct, blunt criticism is completely shattering your ego, you maybe should reconsider your involvement in internet fora.
There's a difference between criticizing something and talking EXCLUSIVELY about its faults. The difference is huge. Your style isn't "a bit of direct critcisim." You aren't talking to animals. You can express flaws without offending anyone, but you just don't bother.
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No, TopAce, Deka came back, PMed us to said he understood what had happened and he was grateful for our attempts to help, and everything worked out. He's even posted since.
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No, TopAce, Deka came back, PMed us to said he understood what had happened and he was grateful for our attempts to help, and everything worked out. He's even posted since.
And where's the improved Relentless? Nowhere, because he became discouraged. He did post that he had plans to fix the bugs, but nothing came out of it. Loss of motivation, perhaps?
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Response to his campaign was overwhelmingly negative. Overwhelmingly. You can't blame The_E for him becoming discouraged, if that's what happened; if he lost motivation it's because nobody seemed to enjoy his campaign.
Deka was previously KappaWing; he's battled depression and at one point nearly killed himself. Can you really blame him for not wanting to work on a FreeSpace campaign that didn't turn out very well?
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I too almost killed myself once, but I am still working on simultaneously two of my projects, plus Scroll of Atankharzim and in the near future, Fate of the Galaxy too. Plus testing for Casualties of War. I too would have ragequit after Descendants of Sol, but I didn't. Maybe because I had THREE successful campaigns before it. In those times, people COULD enjoy campaigns. KappaWing was unfortunate to have finished his campaign and release it to a declining, burned out community. Nowadays, it's all about mistakes. A release apparently must be outstanding, to whatever standards, to be well received. If it has ONE flaw, it gets blown out of proportion.
I read through some older release threads, and people were enthusiastic about EVERY release. Some mistakes were pointed out, which is all right, but the general audience COULD enjoy campaigns. But it's not the case anymore.
I know what it means to work on something, then see its flaws (one flaw?) be blown out of proportion. You BP guys have NO IDEA what it feels like.
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Maybe standards have increased because we've had so many good campaigns, but clearly, single people - like you, like Kappa/Deka - can succeed. Look at Wings of Dawn. Look at Ridiculous. Look at Blue Planet, which was buggy as **** when it first came out. Look at Uncharted Territory or Crossing the Styx. Look at Vassago's Dirge. These are all fairly recent and highly praised, and they were all done alone.
In fact the campaigns that get blown out of the water are in the minority.
I know what it means to work on something, then see its flaws (one flaw?) be blown out of proportion. You BP guys have NO IDEA what it feels like.
'you BP guys'? Is this seriously going to go that way again? Come on, you're better than that.
I'm sorry about Descendants of Sol. You saw that I was excited for it and you saw me work to get the community excited. But in spite of my hopes, the campaign was not good enough for people to like it. This is not because any one single person had a grudge against it. People felt awful about it. Axem spent a long time struggling over whether he should even post his review because he felt bad about it.
If this is all about your bitterness over that issue I don't know what to tell you.
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If this is all about your bitterness over that issue I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you should take a break.
There are a bunch of parallels between Relentless and DoS. It's all about the critical first post. If it's negative, the entire thread goes bad. Incidentally along the lines of the first post. People nowadays enjoy bandwagoning. IT WASN'T LIKE THAT BEFORE. Before that, people could remain civil. It's not the case anymore.
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TopAce, I really like you, I think you're a great guy. So I just want to say that I don't want to turn this into a personal fight.
But just as with Relentless...I don't think it was the release thread that sunk the campaign. I watched people liveblogging their playthroughs on IRC. They went in happy and hopeful and excited. It did not last. It was painful and upsetting for them, and for me, because I wanted to enjoy the campaign.
I don't think you can blame the thread for what happened. And I don't think you should blame The_E.
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When you made this post, here:
What's up, people? Is everyone still playing it?
people were trying to decide how to respond. There was discussion about how to handle it politely or whether people should just keep their mouths shut. People were sympathetic, they were concerned for how you'd feel.
DarthGeek tried to be delicate about it. Axem finally decided it was time to say something. NGTM1R was...well, he was NGTM1R, that's never changed.
But most of the rest of the thread was spent with people trying to encourage you and explain that things weren't as bad as you thought. That seems civil and it doesn't seem like bandwagoning, except in the best way.
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All right.
Then I acknowledge that I was wrong about The E's role in Relentless's fall. For that, I apologize to him. However, as I said above, I still maintain that he really should be a lot friendlier to people.
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Well I think I agree with that, and I think he agrees with it too.
But it's hard to be friendly when things are bad in your life; if you've gotten close to suicide you should be able to empathize. I have no idea how much The_E wants to share so I'll leave it up to him.
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Fine. Then the issue is settled as far as I'm concerned.
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Hooray. That actually went rather well. Thank you for a good discussion, TopAce.
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Maybe this thread should turn into the official "Peace Conference" thread. People being able to vent their issues in this thread knowing the mods probably won't lock it seems to be getting results, at least from where I'm sitting and reading a bit. HLP Summit Thread ftw. :D
*retreats back into the lurking darkness* :nervous:
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NGTM1R was...well, he was NGTM1R, that's never changed.
I don't recall playing DoS, I'm not sure I was here when it was released, I can't find it on my harddrive, the release thread was deleted but I don't honestly recall posting anything terribly offensive. I try very hard to review campaigns in a clinical fashion, so unless TopAce lashed out ahead of me, I don't know what's going on at all.
I'm not sure why I'm being mentioned in this context at all. Perhaps you could explain?
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Because your post is one of the first in the thread and it hasn't been deleted?
Direct links to posts are being wonky but you're right here on this page - here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=71611.msg1416089#msg1416089)
The question wasn't whether you were offensive or anything, it was just a census of posts that TopAce would have taken as some kind of overwhelming criticism and I argued they weren't.
Although weirdly you post several times as if you'd played it.
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Although weirdly you post several times as if you'd played it.
It's quite possible I did, but it just hasn't stuck with me. There are campaigns I know I've played that I can't remember a thing about, like Deep Blood.
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man why'd this get split it was a GOOD thread
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Cause it was a topic separate from the general issue of moderation and we want that topic to continue being discussed.
I didn't lock it so there's no reason you can't continue any discussion you want to.