Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: Hades on January 10, 2011, 08:29:58 pm
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It's kinda interesting that we have different generations of models going on. This Medusa, the Cain/Lilith, the Hattie, the Colossus, all look so good that it almost merits a redo of some of the older ships like the Orion, Zeus, etc.
Well, the Zeus is still a pretty good model compared to most others in the MVPs, but ships like the Orion, Hecate, Ravana, Sobek, Fenris, Deimos, Chronos, etc really need a update.
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I don't really have any beef with ships like the Deimos or Fenris as they stand, and I'm not sure what throwing polies at the Sobek could produce other than an even smoother phallus. :p
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The Deimos has awful, awful mapping and the Fenris is starting to see of age, though it may just be that some parts could beveling, like the top and bottom parts of the fenris as can be seen:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm56/HLPHades/Fenris-2.png)
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I thought the Fenris was freaking beautiful, and one of the best MVP ships 3 years ago when I first installed the MVPs (It also singlehandedly brought my framerates to the teens on my old laptop. New leviathan with all the greebles covered made me sad though.
OT: i can haz progress shots for texchurs?
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Well, the Zeus is still a pretty good model compared to most others in the MVPs, but ships like the Orion, Hecate, Ravana, Sobek, Fenris, Deimos, Chronos, etc really need a update.
I'll agree with you on most counts, but the Orion? And if anything I think the focus should be on models that are retail or near-retail quality, like the previous HTL Medusa that you have marvelously replaced.
Btw I'm not sure you actually can make the Hecate look good, no matter how many polies you throw at it.
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A model that could look good with some artistic license taken in mind when redoing it, the basic model shape is quite poor and greebling over a poor shape will not improve the model IMO.
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OT: i can haz progress shots for texchurs?
They haven't been started yet, it still needs to be UVMapped. VasudanAdmiral says he might be able to do both, but not extremely soon. He's awesome.
I'll agree with you on most counts, but the Orion? And if anything I think the focus should be on models that are retail or near-retail quality, like the previous HTL Medusa that you have marvelously replaced.
Btw I'm not sure you actually can make the Hecate look good, no matter how many polies you throw at it.
A model that could look good with some artistic license taken in mind when redoing it, the basic model shape is quite poor and greebling over a poor shape will not improve the model IMO.
Exactly. I've got some ideas for a new Hecate that could make it tolerable (though I know that I could never change it enough or people would get up in arms) but yeah, that'll be after a bit.
And about the Orion, it's main problem is it's just a bunch of random boxes slapped on for no purpose, same thing goes for Trashman's model. It's like the tiling of models.
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And about the Orion, it's main problem is it's just a bunch of random boxes slapped on for no purpose, same thing goes for Trashman's model. It's like the tiling of models.
I never can tell that much difference between the two different Orions, and I haven't been able to understand why everyone gets up in arms over which one to use. I'd say its basic problem is that its pretty much a giant brick to start with. You can't go too far in any direction with that.
Exactly. I've got some ideas for a new Hecate that could make it tolerable (though I know that I could never change it enough or people would get up in arms) but yeah, that'll be after a bit.
I know I'd certainly like to see some further work on it.
While we're on the subject of models that could use updating, the Herc II could definitely use some love. That would at least lay the groundwork for the Ares, as well. Efficiency ftw!
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You know who needs some love? The Shivans that's who. That's why they're so pissed off, they have to fly around in those retail ships.
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You know who needs some love? The Shivans that's who. That's why they're so pissed off, they have to fly around in those retail ships.
:lol:
Well they are getting some love lately after all... they might even get GREEN of joy.
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With the Fenris and things you need to be careful though, otherwise you'll get caught up in a loop of 'eternal update'. This was a problem encountered by a lot of Mods a few years ago when the SCP was expanding at a frightening rate, every new feature sort of required Mods to go back to the start with their models and update them to take it into account, and a lot of Mods got paralysed for a while because of it.
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You know who needs some love? The Shivans that's who. That's why they're so pissed off, they have to fly around in those retail ships.
Yeah I've been thinking of redoing the Dragon so people couldn't go 'why remodel already upgraded ships when there are retail shivan ships?!?!?!'
Because honestly, there are still a lot of Terran and Vasudan ships without new models, and only a few with new models are actually decent. In fact, I can name and show several examples of ships with upgrades that don't look much better than the model which they replace, such as the Apollo, Herc II, Ares, Erinyes, Chronos, TAC 1, Ursa, the list goes on. It's not like I'm the only modeler for the FSU anyway, so while others do models for ships without them (VA, etc) I can do them for the ships which have out-dated upgraded models at the same time.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm56/HLPHades/compairson.jpg?t=1294724394)
Medusa, left is the old upgrade, right is retail. Polycount difference? 4.6k triangles for the upgrade, less than 500 for the retail model.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm56/HLPHades/cargocomparison.jpg?t=1294724433)
TAC 1, upgradedmodel has 700, retail has 27 triangles.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm56/HLPHades/chronoscomparison.jpg?t=1294724395)
Chronos, upgraded model has 2.8k triangles, retail has 412.
Considering how recent the Chronos and TAC 1 are, though, it seems they were modeled far too conservatively, which may have made a good upgrade for 2005, really doesn't work now in these days with the MVP's increasing standards
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As a community project, the Freespace Upgrade will accept ANY model that is an upgrade at any point in time that it is offered.
We cannot mandate that older or still Retail models get done by anybody. And while our goal is to see to it that one day, all of the models in the MediaVps will be high-poly beautiful upgrades, that can only happen when and if people choose the models they work on.
I find the results (like the Medusa and the Hermes) are at their best when the modeler/artist has CHOSEN the object that they desire to work with. And while good results can still be gotten from a good modeler who has been "mandated" to do a Retail model FIRST before getting to do what they want, it will never be an acceptable standard to try and enforce.
So people. seriously. Stop ragging on about the poor derelict Retail models. Stop diminishing or castigating the modelers from following their artistic passions. Or else, we'll be left with nothing because nobody will want to bother doing anything.
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You know who needs some love? The Shivans that's who. That's why they're so pissed off, they have to fly around in those retail ships.
Working on it, if you haven't noticed there are at least two in progress already and I have another one in the works.
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So people. seriously. Stop ragging on about the poor derelict Retail models. Stop diminishing or castigating the modelers from following their artistic passions. Or else, we'll be left with nothing because nobody will want to bother doing anything.
I do agree, but that being said, I feel like seriously considering redoing something like the Hecate is a bit silly. I mean, that model was finished all of two or so years ago, and at least for my money, it's a pretty damn good upgrade.
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Dear Hades just a few things.
The Fenris model is not only a old model, it's also a brilliant model. VA's creations, at least this one and a few others i can remember, are the best examples of performance and appearance INGAME (sorry for the caps, just trying to make a point).
The fact that many of our newer models are also brilliant, does not mean everything can replaced just because of the poly count. A wise - guy like VA perhaps can reach "higher skies". I am sure that the first one who 'd agree would be VA himself (i'll personally oppose, but as you know, i am a Conservative bastard :pimp:. But who cares what i vote anyway).
So, if you have a proposal, just do it. Just do not count just on poly - count.
(Batutta am i a poet now?)
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Well ****. There are so many wrong opinions on that thread that I can't warp my head around what side I'm really on. Carry on.
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Dear Hades just a few things.
The Fenris model is not only a old model, it's also a brilliant model. VA's creations, at least this one and a few others i can remember, are the best examples of performance and appearance INGAME (sorry for the caps, just trying to make a point).
The fact that many of our newer models are also brilliant, does not mean everything can replaced just because of the poly count. A wise - guy like VA perhaps can reach "higher skies". I am sure that the first one who 'd agree would be VA himself (i'll personally oppose, but as you know, i am a Conservative bastard :pimp:. But who cares what i vote anyway).
So, if you have a proposal, just do it. Just do not count just on poly - count.
(Batutta am i a poet now?)=
You are a gentleman and a poet.
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The only beef I have with the mediavps is the HTL Leviathan having random covered up patchwork plating on it. I replaced it with the old model.
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Not everything is for everyone. Hades once asked me in IRC what I thought of the new Medusa, and my opinion still stands - I don't care for it. I've listed out my rationale, and that rationale is entirely valid. This is not to say I think it's a bad mesh; the model itself is very well modeled. I just don't care for the direction taken with the model.
Simultaneously, if you want something done the way you want it done, do it yourself. And this is exactly what Hades did with the new Medusa. He also carried out his vision for it, despite any opinions otherwise. While that bull-headedness can be a bit obnoxious in the way in which it's expressed, as a fellow artist I will commend Hades for doing something he wanted to do, and then make something out of it. Good work, kiddo. :yes:
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Not everything is for everyone. Hades once asked me in IRC what I thought of the new Medusa, and my opinion still stands - I don't care for it. I've listed out my rationale, and that rationale is entirely valid. This is not to say I think it's a bad mesh; the model itself is very well modeled. I just don't care for the direction taken with the model.
Simultaneously, if you want something done the way you want it done, do it yourself. And this is exactly what Hades did with the new Medusa. He also carried out his vision for it, despite any opinions otherwise. While that bull-headedness can be a bit obnoxious in the way in which it's expressed, as a fellow artist I will commend Hades for doing something he wanted to do, and then make something out of it. Good work, kiddo. :yes:
I wish more people around here would have that attitude. As an artist myself, I've noticed how everyone seems to think that I work for them and that my work needs to meet their desires. I'll listen to criticism that comes with valid rational, but I won't necessarily act on it because when rubber meets the road, this is my work.
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We already have mostly completed WIPs for many of the retail models, but it seems that many of them become mired during the UVmapping/texturing phase that they are ultimately abandoned.
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Not everything is for everyone. Hades once asked me in IRC what I thought of the new Medusa, and my opinion still stands - I don't care for it. I've listed out my rationale, and that rationale is entirely valid. This is not to say I think it's a bad mesh; the model itself is very well modeled. I just don't care for the direction taken with the model.
Simultaneously, if you want something done the way you want it done, do it yourself. And this is exactly what Hades did with the new Medusa. He also carried out his vision for it, despite any opinions otherwise. While that bull-headedness can be a bit obnoxious in the way in which it's expressed, as a fellow artist I will commend Hades for doing something he wanted to do, and then make something out of it. Good work, kiddo. :yes:
I wish more people around here would have that attitude. As an artist myself, I've noticed how everyone seems to think that I work for them and that my work needs to meet their desires. I'll listen to criticism that comes with valid rational, but I won't necessarily act on it because when rubber meets the road, this is my work.
Oh noes - Rise of the modellers. Somebody stop them! :eek:
I think everybody should keep these statements in the back of their heads while criticising. But you are of course never forced to change things you like on your models :) (people who still try this are mostly under the age of 14 - physically and / or mentally :p )
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Dear Hades just a few things.
The Fenris model is not only a old model, it's also a brilliant model. VA's creations, at least this one and a few others i can remember, are the best examples of performance and appearance INGAME (sorry for the caps, just trying to make a point).
The fact that many of our newer models are also brilliant, does not mean everything can replaced just because of the poly count. A wise - guy like VA perhaps can reach "higher skies". I am sure that the first one who 'd agree would be VA himself (i'll personally oppose, but as you know, i am a Conservative bastard :pimp:. But who cares what i vote anyway).
So, if you have a proposal, just do it. Just do not count just on poly - count.
The Fenris model is a brilliant model but the model of KARMA, and I'm not saying an old mesh which could use upgrading is bad or otherwise, and it is true that the Fenris is a good balance of performance and appearance.
And I realise that, I do not model on the basis of 'gotta make it have SUPEEEER POLYGONS', I model on the basis of making it look good while keeping all the parts we all know and love.
I thank you for your post, peterv, and yes, you are a poet :p
Not everything is for everyone. Hades once asked me in IRC what I thought of the new Medusa, and my opinion still stands - I don't care for it. I've listed out my rationale, and that rationale is entirely valid. This is not to say I think it's a bad mesh; the model itself is very well modeled. I just don't care for the direction taken with the model.
Simultaneously, if you want something done the way you want it done, do it yourself. And this is exactly what Hades did with the new Medusa. He also carried out his vision for it, despite any opinions otherwise. While that bull-headedness can be a bit obnoxious in the way in which it's expressed, as a fellow artist I will commend Hades for doing something he wanted to do, and then make something out of it. Good work, kiddo. :yes:
I wish more people around here would have that attitude. As an artist myself, I've noticed how everyone seems to think that I work for them and that my work needs to meet their desires. I'll listen to criticism that comes with valid rational, but I won't necessarily act on it because when rubber meets the road, this is my work.
Agreed. I notice that the general attitude towards modelers around here, mainly for the FSU, is that they are just tools to be squeezed of their talent in making something how others want it. And that was what I was trying to get at with my other post, that I will model what I want, when I want, and here are my reasons.
I just woke up ad posted this so call 1-800-tell-me-how-my-posting-is if you have any problems (okay not really)
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It is indeed very easy to get offended on either side of the line with regards to what the FSU implements in terms of assets. However, modelers should also keep in mind that what they are submitting very well might end up being used in-game. As such, end users cannot (or rather, should not) be entirely dismissed when a model is under scrutiny for any reason.
...But then again, I'll reference my proir statements. Ultimately it comes down to striking a balance. If neither group can be accomodated in what they're doing, we'll end up with a damaging situation within the FSU.
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Honestly you see so little of these ships that I'm pretty sure the basic detail stuff only matters to the people who model (past a point). Usually it's just 'there is a blob shape with brackets around it, now i will fire guns, that is a nice explosion nighteyes you did good'
The HTL models just need to look pretty good and not have ****ty mapping. I guess the Deimos is starting to look a little old but the rest I barely notice, esp. if it has a cockpit.
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Really, that thread makes no sense. I am always right, anyone that thinks the contrary is wrong. Trololololo
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Really, that thread makes no sense. I am always right, anyone that thinks the contrary is wrong. Trololololo
What thread, do you mean this one?
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Yeah. It's all about modellers creativity vs what the guys who don't model think the ship should look like.
And my opinion > everyone's, so I am the one that should decide how all those models should look like.
Isn't that how it works ?
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I'm going to chime in and say that while input from the community is important and should be taken into account when modelling, you ultimately need to satisfy your own vision.
If you take everything everyone says into account everytime, you will be constructing a model that you have no idea how to finish, because the goal you're aiming for is not your own, and you will never know when you have achieved the goal.
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I don't think anyone is trying to insult the older models. The Deimos was made so long ago I'd have to say it actually looks good for its age.
I clearly am not a modeler. I am a forumite. Modelers can do what they like, but if they don't want any criticism, they could probably have a mod lock the announcement thread or something.
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No, no, it's not that I don't want any criticism, I just don't want everyone to expect me to agree with every bit of it and implement it. You're free to give constructive criticism, in fact, I love constructive critcism, just not all of it I will agree with or implement.
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:) I wasn't thinking of you in particular.
I do think that some people are taking this the wrong way though, I really don't think the point of this discussion was to put down modelers at all.
The original point was that some older, previously updated models could use some updating. I think this is valid.
I think for instance, the retail Mentu (with the mapping updates of FSO) looks better than the original update to the Ursa. It's not that I think Firecrack it did a bad job, merely that it wasn't as good as it could be now, and is in need if more help than some retail assets.
Another example: I think one reason why the Hatshepsut went so long without an update is because it still looked pretty good thanks to glow maps and normals.
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Ah okay.
And I will be doing a new Ursa sometime soon, after a couple of models.
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That's great to hear!
(And uh, request to make it even more robust-looking than your medusa. Make it look like it has a tubful of HP)
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This is quickly reading like a counciling session between modelers and critics. When do we cry and hug?
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This is quickly reading like a counciling session between modelers and critics. When do we cry and hug?
When we are waist-deep in blood and bodies.