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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Goober5000 on January 11, 2011, 11:59:48 pm

Title: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: Goober5000 on January 11, 2011, 11:59:48 pm
This is darkly amusing.  Isn't it always the police who say that if you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide?

Quote
LOS ANGELES -- Dozens of anti-gang police officers across the city are quitting their assignments over a requirement to reveal personal financial information under strict anti-corruption rules, The Associated Press has learned.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/10/AR2011011006954.html
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: Mongoose on January 12, 2011, 12:09:42 am
"Sap morale" my ass. :p
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: Kosh on January 12, 2011, 12:43:54 am
So does this mean he's sitting on another Rampart Scandal? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampart_scandal)
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: BloodEagle on January 12, 2011, 07:17:37 am
The article mentions that they're only required to show a portion of their personal financial records.  I'm curious as to what that actual portion is.

"Sap morale" my ass. :p

It most certainly would.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: General Battuta on January 12, 2011, 07:38:43 am
GOOBERMINT SAPPIN MAH MORALE

The Thin Blue Line strikes again.

Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: Nemesis6 on January 12, 2011, 09:03:21 am
This is darkly amusing.  Isn't it always the police who say that if you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide?

I wonder whether police actually believe that phrase, or it's just like a meme they spout, you know, like mudkips or battletoads.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: BengalTiger on January 12, 2011, 12:53:42 pm
I thought it was those dudes who want the government to control everything (for our safety and benefits) that came up with the if you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide thingy...
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: Scotty on January 12, 2011, 12:58:12 pm
I thought it was those dudes who want the government to control everything (for our safety and benefits) that came up with the[/color] if you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide thingy...

No, that's just the persuasive efforts of cops who really want to search you but don't have probable cause.  Remember, refusing to consent to search does NOT give probable cause.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: Mongoose on January 12, 2011, 03:01:30 pm
"Sap morale" my ass. :p

It most certainly would.
My point is that it's a pretty transparent excuse for "Oh **** we have all sorts of crap we want to hide but we don't want to say that because that makes us look bad."
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: General Battuta on January 12, 2011, 03:02:37 pm
"Sap morale" my ass. :p

It most certainly would.
My point is that it's a pretty transparent excuse for "Oh **** we have all sorts of crap we want to hide but we don't want to say that because that makes us look bad."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 12, 2011, 04:21:17 pm
The sad thing is the LAPD has, for the most part, seriously cleaned themselves up from '91 and Rampart. Public confidence in them is up way up, the department's demographics at least resemble the people they're policing, and LA's rate of violent crime and particularly murder per capita is lower than the norm in the US.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: BloodEagle on January 12, 2011, 05:56:36 pm
"Sap morale" my ass. :p

It most certainly would.
My point is that it's a pretty transparent excuse for "Oh **** we have all sorts of crap we want to hide but we don't want to say that because that makes us look bad."

My point is that it would create a hostile work environment, regardless.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: General Battuta on January 12, 2011, 05:59:01 pm
"Sap morale" my ass. :p

It most certainly would.
My point is that it's a pretty transparent excuse for "Oh **** we have all sorts of crap we want to hide but we don't want to say that because that makes us look bad."

My point is that it would create a hostile work environment, regardless.

Well I think that's a fair bit better than a corrupt, unaccountable department.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: BloodEagle on January 12, 2011, 06:01:56 pm
"Sap morale" my ass. :p

It most certainly would.
My point is that it's a pretty transparent excuse for "Oh **** we have all sorts of crap we want to hide but we don't want to say that because that makes us look bad."

My point is that it would create a hostile work environment, regardless.

Well I think that's a fair bit better than a corrupt, unaccountable department.

Did I say that it wasn't?  :/
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: General Battuta on January 12, 2011, 06:04:25 pm
"Sap morale" my ass. :p

It most certainly would.
My point is that it's a pretty transparent excuse for "Oh **** we have all sorts of crap we want to hide but we don't want to say that because that makes us look bad."

My point is that it would create a hostile work environment, regardless.

Well I think that's a fair bit better than a corrupt, unaccountable department.

Did I say that it wasn't?  :/

No no, good sir, our points are not incompatible.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: BloodEagle on January 12, 2011, 06:11:00 pm
"Sap morale" my ass. :p

It most certainly would.
My point is that it's a pretty transparent excuse for "Oh **** we have all sorts of crap we want to hide but we don't want to say that because that makes us look bad."

My point is that it would create a hostile work environment, regardless.

Well I think that's a fair bit better than a corrupt, unaccountable department.

Did I say that it wasn't?  :/

No no, good sir, our points are not incompatible.

RAINBOW TEXT!!!
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: karajorma on January 12, 2011, 11:29:17 pm
Stop that right now.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: FUBAR-BDHR on January 13, 2011, 12:56:08 am
Hate to say it but I agree with them.  The day we have to give up private info just to keep a job is the day to leave that job.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: Klaustrophobia on January 13, 2011, 01:25:47 am
while such action can't help but raise eyebrows, it doesn't necessarily mean they are corrupt.  i find it perfectly understandable that some would prefer a different assignment over having such disclosures mandated.  best way to handle it too, no whining and crying about "bad policy" or whathaveyou and throwing litigation around or generally causing a scene. 
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: Flipside on January 13, 2011, 01:43:50 am
Without more details on what those 'personal finances' are, I really am not sure what to say, after all, submitting your expenses is standard practice for pretty much anyone else, especially when that money is coming from the Taxpayers' pocket, it was a failure in that system that led to the UK's expenses scandal, but then I can understand if it is stuff like personal bank details etc.

I suppose what concerns me is that this is as much about keeping officers alive as about funding, if an officer is recieving bribes or is a 'bad cop', then that not only compromises the Force itself, but places at risk the lives of other officers, it might be an invasion of personal privacy, but then, I'm not sure whether the Police are as heavily funded by the Government in the US as they are in the UK.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 13, 2011, 02:03:28 am
They aren't self-financing. As public servants go, they fall somewhere between the military and the officeworker types.

When you join the military your rights are, in effect, suspended. You have no expectation of privacy or anything else. Cops are subjected to a less-intense level of discipline but are still being called upon to risk their life, health, and social standing for the greater good. They are treated as civilians, but in the end, they're really not the same beastie and can, must, be held to different standards of accountability.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: FUBAR-BDHR on January 13, 2011, 02:06:30 am
Did anyone every think that disclosing such info could put their families at risk?  Seriously I felt it was a major violation of my privacy to have to go through a metal detector every day at work.  Yea I had to take the 2 knives I carried out and everything else that I used for my job and then put it back in my pockets.  I had a key to the building (still do) if I wanted to I would have carried enough stuff into the building on the weekend.

Back to the point.  Disclosing finances becomes public record.  Any criminal they bust can access that record.  You got 20 grand as a gift from your elderly mother it's on record.  Guess who that criminal gang you just busted is going to target?  Would you want that?  It's one thing to have your payroll records public (yes cops paychecks are public record) but another thing entirely to bring every cent you get from all sources into the public record. 
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: Flipside on January 13, 2011, 02:23:53 am
If that's the case, then maybe there should be a two-tier system, the public can know how much the department spends of their money, that's relevant enough, but the exact details of those expenses would not be in the public interest, and, as Fubar points out, could actually be in contradiction to it, and would be better dealt with internally.

The problem is that the police are carrying the can for previous corruption, if you had a department that had already taken a lot of flak for fiddling expenses/corruption etc, then it would be as much a question of regaining public confidence as ensuring the best use of resources.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 13, 2011, 02:29:57 am
Back to the point.  Disclosing finances becomes public record.  Any criminal they bust can access that record.  You got 20 grand as a gift from your elderly mother it's on record.  Guess who that criminal gang you just busted is going to target?  Would you want that?

You honestly think there's a criminal organization in the US that'll ever get in that kind of a pissing contest with the police and survive? Nobody in their right mind would even try. You haven't been able to get away with that sort of thing since Prohibition ended, and the guys who ran the Prohibition rackets were smarter than this.

And especially the LAPD. These are the people who taught the world how to utterly dismember street gangs in the late '90s. Those that survive do so at their sufferance, because they have not made themselves worth the while to get rid of, and they, despite their posturing, are aware of it. Nobody is going to call down the wrath of God so casually on themselves.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: FUBAR-BDHR on January 13, 2011, 02:33:53 am
Thing is almost all that financial info is already available to the IRS it's just not public.  So what is the point? If all of a sudden you have 10k show up with no trace the IRS is going to be beating down your door anyway.  Yea you can keep all transactions in cash or under 10k but that only goes so far.  It's traceable. 
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: FUBAR-BDHR on January 13, 2011, 02:35:14 am
Back to the point.  Disclosing finances becomes public record.  Any criminal they bust can access that record.  You got 20 grand as a gift from your elderly mother it's on record.  Guess who that criminal gang you just busted is going to target?  Would you want that?

You honestly think there's a criminal organization in the US that'll ever get in that kind of a pissing contest with the police and survive? Nobody in their right mind would even try. You haven't been able to get away with that sort of thing since Prohibition ended, and the guys who ran the Prohibition rackets were smarter than this.

And especially the LAPD. These are the people who taught the world how to utterly dismember street gangs in the late '90s. Those that survive do so at their sufferance, because they have not made themselves worth the while to get rid of, and they, despite their posturing, are aware of it. Nobody is going to call down the wrath of God so casually on themselves.

Yes I expect these hardcore gang members to do just that.  They don't give a crap about going to prison or even the death penalty to make a name for themselves what's one more small hit?
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: Flipside on January 13, 2011, 02:36:15 am
Well, I'll take a step back there, since we are entering an area of American financial laws and procedures that I, admittedly, know nothing whatsoever about.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: FUBAR-BDHR on January 13, 2011, 02:44:25 am
Well I admit I can't speak for Cal but Ohio all payroll records are public record.  All you have to do is request them and you get everything except SSN on paper.  As they are part of the so called sunshine laws that a lot of states go by it's probable the same would be true in Cal.  Even if it's not it could be requested under the freedom of information act. 
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: newman on January 13, 2011, 03:52:16 am
I can't help but remember the good old Psi-Corps. Submitting to a scan is mandatory. If you refuse, you must have something to hide :P
All joking aside, this isn't all that different in principle.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 13, 2011, 04:04:56 am
Yes I expect these hardcore gang members to do just that.  They don't give a crap about going to prison or even the death penalty to make a name for themselves what's one more small hit?

Getting left face down in alley or a cell by your buddies for having the stupidity to destroy everything they have ever tried to accomplish or defend.

I'm sure in the happy world of 1995 where gangs owned large sections of LA there might be a few who would try that. (But damn few. For all "gangsta" rap's glorifying the killing of police officers, it's an exercise in self-destruction: there is always another cop and it causes a lot of people, including the federal government, to become committed to your destruction.) It's SOP in Mexico because the government is ineffective and the army's institutional hatred of most other Western states is so entrenched they won't learn the simplest urban warfare lessons. But we're not in 1995 or Mexico. This is LA, 2011, and the days when gangs ruled parts of the city are dead and gone. They have been dismembered, innovative and sometimes questionable legal options to destroy their ability to coordinate or carry out business employed, their every move shadowed and reported, locked away for the slightest of offenses and sent to places where their name and their gang status means nothing and they die in a cellblock somewhere because they didn't realize they don't carry any weight.

There's no glory in going to jail for unpaid parking tickets, and far less in dying there for those parking tickets. The government has the means to exploit this, so if you kill a cop's family member in LA, everyone you know goes to jail (not in SoCal either; they'll send them to Nevada or Oregon or some jail full of white supremacists in NorCal, where their connection to you means nothing) at some point and a lot of them don't get out and their family members get mad at you, and you end up dead in an alley somewhere with everything you ever accomplished essentially dust in the wind. It will be as if you never existed. The exercise of the power a gun gives you brings down the wrath of those who are beyond such petty instruments of guns and have a lot more practice in the exercise of power.

Just to add to the pressure, the gang system in LA is breaking down demographically as Latinos replace the African-American population.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: Kosh on January 13, 2011, 05:12:30 am
Hate to say it but I agree with them.  The day we have to give up private info just to keep a job is the day to leave that job.


The difference being that his salary is supplied by taxpayer dollars, so there must be some amount of transparency with this regard.


However reading up on the Rampart Scandal of the late 90's, in which LAPD anti-gang officers engaged in unprovoked shootings, unprovoked beatings, planting of evidence, framing of suspects, stealing and dealing narcotics, bank robbery, perjury, covering up evidence, and the murder of a rap star, it seems clear that the lack of transparency and the Blue Wall allowed this stuff to continue for far longer than it should have. 
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: Snail on January 13, 2011, 07:30:29 am
The LAPD killed Biggie that means they're super corrupt


okay i'll shut up now sorry
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: Kosh on January 13, 2011, 10:01:23 am
The point being that past experience makes people demand more transparency, hence the request to disclose this guys finances.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: Scotty on January 13, 2011, 09:02:19 pm
The difference being that his salary is supplied by taxpayer dollars, so there must be some amount of transparency with this regard.

I call bull**** on this.  Yes, it's important to know WHO the money is going to when it's still taxpayer money, but the moment the recipient cashes the check, it ceases to be taxpayer money and starts to be private finances.

tl;dr bull**** it's not taxpayer anymore.
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: Nemesis6 on January 13, 2011, 09:08:49 pm
No, that's just the persuasive efforts of cops who really want to search you but don't have probable cause.  Remember, refusing to consent to search does NOT give probable cause.

I think refusing a search is mostly a Catch-22. You know, by refusing, you'll cause it, and/or open yourself up to reprisals.

Anyway, on the subject of financing, isn't it normal for precincts to finance themselves via Asset Forfeiture laws in the United States?
Title: Re: LAPD anti-gang unit resigns rather than disclose finances
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 13, 2011, 09:27:11 pm
By the way, on the subject of financing, isn't it normal for precincts to finance themselves via Asset Forfeiture laws in the United States?

It's not possible in most cases, and any sane system has the department handle disposal anyways. A lot of departments supplement funding with auctioning off property that isn't claimed by a rightful owner or money/goods that they've confiscated as generated from illegal sources (drug money/vehicles used in the transport of drugs/etc.), but the income this generates is far too unreliable to be used as a major source of funding.