Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: kir2yar on January 18, 2011, 03:04:17 am
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Interestingly, and UEF could cause at least some damage to SD Lutsifer?
I mean, the GTVA have beam weapons, which totally ignores shields. Have UEF something to replace?
Maybe something like anti-shield torpedoes?
Otherwise, a single Lucifer can cause serious damage to the entire fleet.
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The Lutsifer is vulnerable to harsh language.
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beam weapons working vs the lucifer != cannon.
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beam weapons working vs the lucifer != cannon.
But that means that by canon, GTVA also has no chance against Lucifer. (Well, except the battle in the subspace.)
added:
Then what's the point of building GTVA Colossus?
Did he not has been built to reflect the Shivan attack? And in particular, as a countermeasure against Lucifer.
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The Lutsifer is vulnerable to harsh language.
Unfortunately, lack of communication in the English-speaking environment - certainly not become a major weapon against GTVA Shivan Destroyer. Where would they take so many illiterate Russian?
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added:
Then what's the point of building GTVA Colossus?
Did he not has been built to reflect the Shivan attack? And in particular, as a countermeasure against Lucifer.
The Colossus had been built on assumptions and hope. They had no real idea if the Colossus could or could not have defeated another Lucifer.
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Ie, it's a white spot in the canon?
It seemed to me that a very widespread opinion that Lucifer protective field works the same way-as a fighter.
It seems reasonable, especially given the fact that it is so does not work in the subspace.
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The Colossus had been built on assumptions and hope. They had no real idea if the Colossus could or could not have defeated another Lucifer.
The actual dev team commented that FS2 weapons could punch through the Lucifer's shield. They were however inspecific on which, but beam cannon are the logical conclusion considering the Vasudans most likely threw everything and the kitchen sink at the Lucifer while it was bombarding Vasuda Prime.
This means that technically, an Aeolus could probably beat up the Lucifer if handled well. The UEF's out of luck though.
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Where did they say that out of curiosity?
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We've said it in several places. In the BP verse, Lucifer shields can be pierced by Beams.
Whether or not UEF weaponry would be effective there as well, that's something that hasn't come up yet. But let us say that it would be stupid of the UEF not to have thought long and hard about how to defeat those shields.
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The duel between the Orestes and the Lucy in AoA shows that the GTVA can damage a Lucifer. Even if a single Raynor couldn't do it on its own without the Vishnan's help, they definitely have the technology to damage and eventually defeat a Lucy.
Nothing tells us that the UEF has any mean to pierce Lucifer-class shields. You can make the assumption that enough anti-shield damage could have pierced them, but that's only an assumption. Nothing in canon says that the Lucifer shields work the same way that standard ones. We only know that beams pierce them.
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It is simply my observation but nothing really says that Lucifer's shields are any special from what your typical fighter uses, with two exceptions. Lucifer's shield seems to be hugging the hull, whereas retail shield meshes were like bubbles around the ships. Second difference is the amount of power directed to shields, Lucifer had what seems like 5 large reactors powering it up. It is unknown if Lucifer had normal reactors like any standard capital ship, but in any case this seems to indicate that Lucifer was able to direct far more power to shields than any other known ship.
Assuming that GTVA could 1) build reactors with sufficient power and 2) project such a huge shield, would they have done so knowing that beams pierce shields anyway? Probably not.
However, the interesting tidbit is that beams piercing shields was apparently according to some FSO coders a bug. For all we know, since :v: didn't bother fixing the bug they just decided to lower AAA beam damage and roll with it. It wouldn't be the first time bugs become features.
And I doubt beams would be only weapons capable of piercing shields. All you'd need is to mimic what causes beams to pierce shields and somehow apply that to other weapons. All it needs is some good old fashioned star trek technobabble.
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The magnetic bottle that shapes and contains the plasma/particle streams (Since Shivan/GTVA beams are not lightspeed, thus therefore are not Lasers), interferes with the energy barrier of the shielding system, thus making the shield essentially opaque at the beam's point of impact, and creating the "Beam's pierce shields" effect we all know and love.
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That's just technobabble bull**** to explain why canonically beams have been able to pierce shields, though it is still canonically limited to only fighters. You can just as well come up with other bull**** to explain why this non-canon plasma cannon pierces shields.
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All it needs is some good old fashioned star trek technobabble.
Time to go matching shield frequencies
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That's just technobabble bull**** to explain why canonically beams have been able to pierce shields, though it is still canonically limited to only fighters. You can just as well come up with other bull**** to explain why this non-canon plasma cannon pierces shields.
Well, technically, one would've thought it would have suggested railgun rounds or torpedoes that project a similar style of magnetic bottle, but hey-ho.
And, hey, it is technobabble-y bull****, but it's exactly what you asked for. (As in "Star Trek Technobabble")
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And, hey, it is technobabble-y bull****, but it's exactly what you asked for. (As in "Star Trek Technobabble")
I know, but the way you put it indicated as if it should be taken as a canon fact, which annoyed me a bit.
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And, hey, it is technobabble-y bull****, but it's exactly what you asked for. (As in "Star Trek Technobabble")
I know, but the way you put it indicated as if it should be taken as a canon fact, which annoyed me a bit.
Hardly? I just made some **** up in response to your request, and stated it as if it were being made factual. I thought it was very clear it wasn't "canon", but obviously not (Although, the part about the shields being energy barriers was canon, and the fact that beams are not lasers is obvious)
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I see it like this, don't know if it's valid. Think so though:
The weapons the GTA fired in the first war against the Lucifer were all pulse based. This can be compared to throwing pebbles at a resistant surface of liquid (let's say a jelly or glue) with a target 10 feet deep. The pebbles with your human strenght will not reach the bottom, they penetrate the jelly only so far but the tension at one point keeps the pebble from reaching it's target, besides it starts losing velocity at some point when thrown. And since you are only allowed to use your hands and no tools, you cannot simply shoot the pebbles into the jelly: you have a limit of force you can practise on that surface with your pebble. No matter how many people throw at once.
The beam-weapons the GTVA fired at ships are continuous. This can be compared to holding a stick in your hand and pushing it down at that same resistant surface of liquid or jelly. Since you can keep applying continuous presure on the stick at one end you can push through the jelly at a slow pace, eventually reaching the bottom 10 feet deep. It'll be more difficult as the jelly resists, but eventually you'll win out with enough strenght. Even if one stick won't do, you can use another stick in your second hand, or get 20 people to press with sticks near yours so that the jelly can't resist all that concentrated presure.
So beam weapons, if plenty, would probably penetrate that Lucifer shielding, rendering it obsolete.
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I think that if beams couldn't damage the Lucifer, Shivans would have sent another one and didn't bothered with beams.
Since they knew that humans could have reverse engineered Lucifer and possibly installed it's shields and beams on their capships (they didn't adapted the capship shields, but it would be safe for Shivans to assume they could), they sent ships equipped to deal with an enemy that has capship shields and beams. Terrans had shown that they could adapt fairly quickly during the Great War (stealing fighter shield technology). Lucifer was, in fact, a very poor design aside from it's shields, it could indeed have been destroyed by an Aeolus or Deimos, since it won't be able to turn fast enough. And Vasudans would most likely want a revange on Shivans for bombing of Vasuda Prime, so a Lucifer-class destroyer would get multiple Hatties attacking it from behind in a relatively short time. This kind of firepower would toast it in no time.
Note that this is not in any way related to BP, just my personal theory on why Shivan ships changed so much from FS1 to FS2.
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To answer the beam question:
Canon and physics are bull**** in this department, because beams are coded to pierce shields, and in the world of FreeSpace, physics is set by the code :P
to answer the ortiginal question:
My theory is that if the force of your arms isn't enoug, use a hammer. The shield has to be powered by something, and if you keep blasting it long enough or use a really big gun/bomb, then either the capacitor storing the energy will drain or the reactor recharging the shield won't be able to recharge it fast enough. Jumping an Orion or two stuffed with meson bombs very near the Lucifer and detonating might as well do the trick. It only depends n the hit points of the shield. Unfortunately we don't know that as retail uses invulnerable flag.
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My theory is that if the force of your arms isn't enoug, use a hammer. The shield has to be powered by something, and if you keep blasting it long enough or use a really big gun/bomb, then either the capacitor storing the energy will drain or the reactor recharging the shield won't be able to recharge it fast enough. Jumping an Orion or two stuffed with meson bombs very near the Lucifer and detonating might as well do the trick. It only depends n the hit points of the shield. Unfortunately we don't know that as retail uses invulnerable flag.
Well in AoA we were able to pierce the Lucifer's shield with the Vishnan megabombs to destroy the reactor's outside of subspace, so it seems that even a non-meson explosion would have enough strength to overcome it.
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I wouldn't use what Vishnan tech can do to be any indication of anything that Terrans/Vasudans can do. At all.
Do you even know if a Vishnan Megabomb is a meson weapon? Nope. Do you even know if it operates with the same physics as terran-designed weapons? Nope...
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IIRC the megabomb is actually something of a kinetic weapon. :nervous:
edit: whoops no that was the ultrabomb buttatatuata you am moron
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My guess is that the best solution to whack the Lucifer would be getting a wing of kamikadze bombers through the fighter umbrella into the fighterbay and detonate inside, something similar like the Daedalus in SGA did to the wraith hive with beaming a nuke, the general strategy being ships not built for torpedos exploding inside the armor plating. Only a small amount should be required to blow it up like that and it should be fairly effective. I doubt the shivan born-with plasma weapon is efficient enough to take down six boanerges in any quantity and using fighters inside the bay has a high risk of secondary explosions.
For the UEF, same thing might work if they had their torpedoes made lil bit faster (smaller warhead and more fuel prehaps?) and aimed for the bay. Unlike hattie's, it's pretty straight so it can get through without packing harpoon like maneuverability and guidance system.
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FIRE THE LEAP CANNON!
I still don't like the whole beam-dicking Lucifer thing :<
She's completely unique in canon, whose to say they didn't HAVE another one?
Also, links/citations please, and frankly unless they're from Adam Fletcher I'd still take them with a massive pinch of salt.
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My guess is that the best solution to whack the Lucifer would be getting a wing of kamikadze bombers through the fighter umbrella into the fighterbay and detonate inside, something similar like the Daedalus in SGA did to the wraith hive with beaming a nuke, the general strategy being ships not built for torpedos exploding inside the armor plating. Only a small amount should be required to blow it up like that and it should be fairly effective. I doubt the shivan born-with plasma weapon is efficient enough to take down six boanerges in any quantity and using fighters inside the bay has a high risk of secondary explosions.
For the UEF, same thing might work if they had their torpedoes made lil bit faster (smaller warhead and more fuel prehaps?) and aimed for the bay. Unlike hattie's, it's pretty straight so it can get through without packing harpoon like maneuverability and guidance system.
Somehow, I don't think they'll make it that far.
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Well, in BP canon, the only things we've seen hurt the Luci are beams and Vishans. Unless the UEF attacks in subspace, they're not going to get very far. Maybe those Sabot rounds will get through though, but somehow I doubt it.
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Somehow, I don't think they'll make it that far.
They might on Easy O:-) After all, the fighter compliment is the only defense Lucy got. Those lasers can't hurt a fly, and UEF bombers seem even tougher to me than allied ones, not to mention more agile and faster. Just try and defend two fighterbays with reasonable amount of fighters that can be launched fast after a surprise attack consisting of 12 of these (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/UEB_Vajradhara) covered with superiority and interceptors, i dare you :P Not to mention that shivans seem to underestimate the terrans in deploying such tactics. IMHO they won't know what hit them.
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I don't even know if the whole UEF has 12 Varas in it. The number of Durgas is already supposed to be "extraordinarily small".
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Unfortunately, the inside of the Lucifer's fighter bay is shielded as well :P
They also have a forcefield to prevent unwanted stuff from flying in.
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UEF should have a bit more than 12 Vajradharas (though I don't know, they didn't even showed up yet in material I know, aside from test missions).
There won't be many of them though, perhaps one squadron per fleet. That would make the numbers of these beasts about 50-70, but as I said, if there's any official data about their numbers, I don't know it.
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Also, links/citations please, and frankly unless they're from Adam Fletcher I'd still take them with a massive pinch of salt.
You want a citation, you have to wait until tomorrow or go find the thread in GenFS that last discussed Lucy shields yourself. I'm at work.
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UEF should have a bit more than 12 Vajradharas (though I don't know, they didn't even showed up yet in material I know, aside from test missions).
There won't be many of them though, perhaps one squadron per fleet. That would make the numbers of these beasts about 50-70, but as I said, if there's any official data about their numbers, I don't know it.
I think the number is really low, they're supposed to be a step up from Durgas, and all we know about Durgas is that their numbers are very low as well, despite being the "main" bomber of the fleet. (Possibly Durgas/Vajradharas were glossed over in favour of the Uriel gunship and the Izra'il, which can perform as bombers on par with most GTVA ones)
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Durgas and Vajradharas have firepower in excess of what is generally considered excessive. I wouldn't be surprised if there's only a few bomber squadrons per fleet.
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Or meet it in subspace with a Deimos and crash into it heads on in the node. There's probably a hundred ways to kill the Lucifer. It should get an own thread sometimes with creative ways of destroying that ship. :P
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Or meet it in subspace with a Deimos and crash into it heads on in the node. There's probably a hundred ways to kill the Lucifer. It should get an own thread sometimes with creative ways of destroying that ship. :P
I sacrifice the entire zod population to the Blood God, then use his favour to destroy the lucifer... or corrupt it's machine spirit with my new found Daemon powers.
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You do realize the Lucifer is far bloodier than the entire Zod race? If anyone has Khorne's favor it is the Shivans. Their ships are even striped red in his honor. You're better off getting the Zods to worship Slaanesh so they collapse Terran-Vasudan space in on itself in a psychic orgy of self-destruction, creating a new Eye of Terror and causing massive subspace shockwaves which destroy everything they touch, including the Lucifer.
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You do realize the Lucifer is far bloodier than the entire Zod race? If anyone has Khorne's favor it is the Shivans. Their ships are even striped red in his honor. You're better off getting the Zods to worship Slaanesh so they collapse Terran-Vasudan space in on itself in a psychic orgy of self-destruction, creating a new Eye of Terror and causing massive subspace shockwaves which destroy everything they touch, including the Lucifer.
This plan... I like it.
Edit:
Although, the thought of Slaaneshi worshipping Zods is bringing uncomfortable fan art images of Zods that are floating around to my mind.
Mind-bleach, get.
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If the Vishnan Megabomb can hurt the Lucifer, it can probably be hurt by some other FS2 era warship weapons. Probably unloading a swarm of Apocalypse can still do the same.
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The reason it could hurt it is because shields weren't even on the Lucifer in that mission, afaik.
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Unfortunately, soon after we arrived in the system, we encountered a Lucifer superdestroyer. While our weaponry was strong enough to pierce the Lucifer's shields, we were barely holding our own. We were very lucky your ships arrived when they did, as we were unsure how long we would have been able to hold out.
So GTVA weapons, at least, can do damage to shielded Lucifers.
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Here comes the second question:
Is it possible to weaken the shields of Lucifer?
For example something like a cap-sized GTW-19 Circe?
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The reason it could hurt it is because shields weren't even on the Lucifer in that mission, afaik.
We're talking fluff here, not ingame mechanics.
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If the Vishnan Megabomb can hurt the Lucifer, it can probably be hurt by some other FS2 era warship weapons. Probably unloading a swarm of Apocalypse can still do the same.
If I remember the techroom explenation correctly, Vishnan bombs utilize subspace in some way to deliver their damage, so that might be the reason why they can pierce Lucy shields.
But that wouldn't explain why the GTVA bombers were able to damage the Luficer in that mission. For that I have a theory though:
The GTVA beams pierced the Lucifers shields. Because their shields were of little use, they shut them down and re-routed the power into weapons, so they were able to fire all four beams at once, maybe even at higher damage output than usual.
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... How many times have we been over this, really ?
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... How many times have we been over this, really ?
Not enough times, obviously :P
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It's the modern day's Kennedy assassination. You can never stop the speculation.
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For sure, even the UEF weapons were not available during FS1, and most ships are still armed with those blob turrets which were designed strictly to engage unshielded targets. The biggest weapon back then was the Harbinger bombs, which was decommissioned in favor of the newer Cyclops and Helios. Most UEF torpedoes are anti matter based however, so it may be somewhat effective against shields assuming it scores a direct hit. Not sure how is the performance of the railguns on shielded targets though, I assume the capital ship version is the uprated version of the Archer.
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... How many times have we been over this, really ?
If it bothers you.
GET OUT.
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I think railguns and mass drivers still can hit the shield. Because we, how i put it... fire a big metal (or not metal) thing, using a giant accelerator, am i right?
And we know that shields don't protect you from short collisions. Or maybe a missed something in canon
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Actually, that's always been weird. A shield protects you against projectiles (missiles, avenger, flail, etc) yet it doesn't protect you from other matter (collisions with solid objects)?
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Maybe it's a matter of mass and speed? I mean flail, and missiles is actualy tiny objects, compared to ships and warships. And maybe shields can protect you from something small, but when object is big and have a much more mass, then they are just don't work?
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Ibelieve that preventing something big (fighter for example) outside takes just too much power over the time period, while when the shield is impacted by short, even though very frequent burst (maxim) the breakes allow it to recharge. It may actually have something to do with the mass that needs to be redirected, as maxim rounds are tiny. Plus, deflecting kinetic power has to take quite more energy than plasma, because it can't be redirected with just electric force field, while ionized gas can.
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Actually, that's always been weird. A shield protects you against projectiles (missiles, avenger, flail, etc) yet it doesn't protect you from other matter (collisions with solid objects)?
The shield turns the fast blow, admits the slow kindjal.
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If two fighters crash head on while on full afterburner speed, they have relative speed to each other higher than most missiles.... or primaries for the matter if they are both interceptors.
But the shields still don't prevent any damage in that situation, so the the Stargate-like shields (or at least personal shields. Starship shields work different in SG too) theory doesn't really hold true to ingame.
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I was just being all snooty and making a Dune reference.
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Forgot all about the old Dune film :o I thought you'd refer to Stargate and the personal shields the Goa'uld used there.
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The book, the book! The movie was bad.
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(http://forum.renaultclub.cz/images/smilies/vul7.gif)
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I've seen no links or material from the Devs.
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Well lets see here, in bp-17 "Fallen Angel" we see that the Boreas, the Orestes, and the Miranda can pierce the Lucifers shields. The Lucifer was shown earlier in Freespace 1 and bp-03 "Lucifer" to be invulnerable to normal attacks.
The UEF is stated to use non-beam cannons, although they do have access to one Hyperion and one Chimera class vessel
. . . the GTC Duke, GTCv Labouchere, and GTL Solace had defected wholesale to the UEF.
We know that beam cannons are considered much more destructive than the weapons that Karuna's are armed with.
Believing the GTVA warships comparably armed to his own Karuna, Leicester engaged the Orestes while calling for the 3rd Fleet to respond. He promptly found his ship gutted by the Orestes’ plasma beams – the first occurrence of a tactical nightmare that would plague the UEF for the rest of the war.
Those anti-shipping weapons are either some type of projectile cannon:
Firing explosive-tipped ceramic rounds,
Excellent range and precision compensate for laughably small damage from a depleted uranium penetrator
Plasma cannons:
Jovian-designed Khatvanga rapid-fire plasma pulse weapon
in spite of vast improvements over its predecessor - doubled damage, enhanced range and projectile speed - the fundamental concept of the Great War-era plasma weapon was obsolete.
The Uller improves on older Djinn and Houndtooth designs primarily through improved power draw and heat generation.
(The Djinn and the Houndstooth are the FS1 era plasma turrets you see on everything from freighters to the Orion.)
Or anti-matter bomb
the GES-101 Apocalypse is an anti-ship torpedo empowered by the antimatter harvest of the Federation's Mercury-orbit stations.
The Federation's Mercury-orbit antimatter manufacturing stations have been active for decades. The result is a formidable stockpile of antimatter for use in heavy anti-warship torpedoes.
And we know that:
Unfortunately for Han-Ronald, these weapons continued to underperform against shielded fighter attack,
In the Great War
The fact that it is protected by a sheath shielding system which makes it completely impervious to any kind of kinetic or plasma damage makes it impossible to destroy.
Thus it is conjecture that the UEF cannot penetrate the Lucifers shields. Given that they've had 50 years to figure it out, it could be they've managed it. There is, however, no reason to think that they could except for this:
But let us say that it would be stupid of the UEF not to have thought long and hard about how to defeat those shields.
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Isn't bp-03 "Lucifer" a dream sequence? I don't think that counts for canon with regards to ship capabilities, especially given that as you referenced, bp-17 "Fallen Angel" directly contradicts it.
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Lucifer is not a dream sequence, it's a recording. You're thinking of Curse of Prescience.
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Orite. Whoops.
Still, recent field data > 50 year old recording.
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Isn't bp-03 "Lucifer" a dream sequence? I don't think that counts for canon with regards to ship capabilities, especially given that as you referenced, bp-17 "Fallen Angel" directly contradicts it.
Bp-17 doesn't contradict the point he is making, as the ships he mentions use beam cannons.
It actually makes his point.
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I've seen no links or material from the Devs.
That's because you're a lazy asshole who can't take advice, go (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=66331.220) find (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=67857.120) it (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?action=search2;params=eJwtkEtuwzAMRK9SdNPNLEz9KN2hdzAcWYVTuHEhOykK-PAdFlkMQD1y-NE0P6ZbbfP5dg7n63npFol3EF-gyJAQkQvERSpQiSnGURAHiHgUhaiHFMoRKeXYILBSAzQikcQMT3sWyEB7JhpYkAo4SAKfyYF2N2SYs5DGCM9EsabmsQKmgofNUM4oxDa_cFG1FKJCC-sCJUgKJ9aCS3O9ZMvbVKIgsC3ttuigyuv3ZfsZ6_b1vbaj8R8M3S-frR7jdlt_n2TrB6Pe1vb_dU80ztdOPLe9GmlTrwvf7_d6_Wj9ZV-ubZ33P7ZBX9g.;start=60).
Actually it may have been in a Colossus thread, but I already wasted my daily allotted time for searching threads on you so unless you do it yourself I'm done for today.
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i - what
what does those links have to do with anything BP, they're in Gen FS :wtf:
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Isn't bp-03 "Lucifer" a dream sequence? I don't think that counts for canon with regards to ship capabilities, especially given that as you referenced, bp-17 "Fallen Angel" directly contradicts it.
Bp-17 doesn't contradict the point he is making, as the ships he mentions use beam cannons.
It actually makes his point.
Aaaaand all the non-beam weapons in the mission damage the Lucifer as well. Contradicted.
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The beams have already shorted out the shields!
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General consensus on this has always been "The Tev beams have already got the shields" (remember the Lucy has been making multiple passes against the Orestes battlegroup, and we have no idea how long it takes to recharge the shields), or "Lucy realized it was against beam-armed opponents and shunt the shields into moar beam powa".
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Note that, because of Lucifer's enormous amount of HP, damage from anything other than beams and Vishnan weapons doesn't matter to it.
It most likely put shield power into it's forward beams, as BFReds (which it, IIRC, uses) are more powerfull than SSLs.
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It uses only HReds and LReds in that mission IIRC.
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LReds are basically the same as SSLs.
HReds are even better than that.
(at least IIRC)
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i - what
what does those links have to do with anything BP, they're in Gen FS :wtf:
They're about QD denying the existence of statements by the FS Dev team regarding the Lucifer being vulnerable to FS2 weapons and beams in particular.
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That's because you're a lazy asshole who can't take advice, go (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=66331.220) find (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=67857.120) it (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?action=search2;params=eJwtkEtuwzAMRK9SdNPNLEz9KN2hdzAcWYVTuHEhOykK-PAdFlkMQD1y-NE0P6ZbbfP5dg7n63npFol3EF-gyJAQkQvERSpQiSnGURAHiHgUhaiHFMoRKeXYILBSAzQikcQMT3sWyEB7JhpYkAo4SAKfyYF2N2SYs5DGCM9EsabmsQKmgofNUM4oxDa_cFG1FKJCC-sCJUgKJ9aCS3O9ZMvbVKIgsC3ttuigyuv3ZfsZ6_b1vbaj8R8M3S-frR7jdlt_n2TrB6Pe1vb_dU80ztdOPLe9GmlTrwvf7_d6_Wj9ZV-ubZ33P7ZBX9g.;start=60).
Any further examples of flaming like that and you're spending a week not posting anywhere public.
And consider yourself lucky that I'm in too much of a hurry to actually monkey you on the spot.
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It uses only HReds and LReds in that mission IIRC.
Right, HReds.
They're still stronger than SSL beams.
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Where are the statements?
They're not in the links, seriously, I have never ever seen such material.
There's been people posting inference of it based on the Collie's existance, but again, that could quite easily be a gamble on commands part.
Considering the amount of foolish mistakes GTA and GTVA command especially have made over the course of FS1, ST, and FS2 it's not really solid evidence even if they were to say it in the cutscene, which, they do not.
The entire issue is swept under the rug in FS2 because of the advent of the massive damage tag, which isn't shielding, and is never hinted to BE shielding, but basically does the same functional job from the players perspective except for the occasions where they're bombing, and most of the bombing missions in FS2 are very piece meal and unpolished compared to a vast majority of the others.
So yea, the reason you couldn't find it after your 'hours' of searching, is because as far as I can tell, it doesn't exist.
I'm not going to search for it because you think it exists.
BP, which isn't canon, has beams piercing shields, and I wouldn't be too surprised if some of the more powerful UEF weaponry could 'puncture' the shields too, but realistically speaking, that's BP canon. Not Retail.
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LReds are basically the same as SSLs.
HReds are even better than that.
(at least IIRC)
On medium difficulty two LRed and two HRed need the about the same time to destroy an Orion. While the HRed does more damage per salvo, the LRed has a higher refire rate. If I remember that little experiment correctly the LReds needed 3 salvos and the HReds only two, but took the same amount of time, but it's a few month since I tried that out, so maybe my memory is a bit fuzzy.
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LReds are basically the same as SSLs.
HReds are even better than that.
(at least IIRC)
HReds are actually weaker than LReds, they're supposed to be between lreds and sreds in power, AFAIK.
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Maybe in terms of damage per seconds (though as I said, they look to be pretty even in that regard to me), but HReds do more damage with a single salvo for sure.... on medium anyway.
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Where are the statements? They're not in the links, seriously, I have never ever seen such material.
Argument from ignorance is a logical fallacy.
There's been people posting inference of it based on the Collie's existance, but again, that could quite easily be a gamble on commands part.
Considering the amount of foolish mistakes GTA and GTVA command especially have made over the course of FS1, ST, and FS2 it's not really solid evidence even if they were to say it in the cutscene, which, they do not.
If you'd actually read the threads involved you'd notice that Battuta, myself, Snail, and others have pretty thoroughly debunked the "command is an idiot lulz" meme.
I'll do so again for your benefit if you like. Point out Command's mistakes! No seriously, go on, do it.
The entire issue is swept under the rug in FS2 because of the advent of the massive damage tag, which isn't shielding, and is never hinted to BE shielding, but basically does the same functional job from the players perspective except for the occasions where they're bombing, and most of the bombing missions in FS2 are very piece meal and unpolished compared to a vast majority of the others.
What does this have to do with anything? We're talking about the Lucifer being invincible/not-invincible. This is at best tangential and at worst a total red herring. It has little or nothing to do with the question. It's not even discussing the right game.
So yea, the reason you couldn't find it after your 'hours' of searching, is because as far as I can tell, it doesn't exist.
Okay, so now you drag out a straw man. I spent 'hours'! Right. You keep thinking that. It was a weekend, I'm not wasting hours on searching for a thread on a weekend. I dropped maybe thirty minutes.
BP, which isn't canon, has beams piercing shields, and I wouldn't be too surprised if some of the more powerful UEF weaponry could 'puncture' the shields too, but realistically speaking, that's BP canon. Not Retail.
So basically you deny the existence of AAAf/AAAh/SAAA, and also that the following people are lying or mistaken. (I'd make the list longer but it's a workday and I've gotta go be on the clock.)
Jeff in recent times.
Icefire in 2004.
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There might have been an interesting discussion here, too!