Hard Light Productions Forums

Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: technopredator on February 01, 2011, 10:45:34 am

Title: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: technopredator on February 01, 2011, 10:45:34 am: I have played ACE online, a 3D space MMO shooter, I see the mouse is 100% efficient for flying, so is inheriting best for aiming, you have the option to see and arrow so you can see how much turning you're giving to the ship, you use your other hand to control buffs, left/right strafe ('A' & 'D') or go to minimum speed ('S'), this way you have perfect control over your ship. I think this could be the case of FSO, since now you need to leave the keypad/mouse to go use other controls on the keyboard.

If the mouse behaves like a joystick you don't need the keypad anymore. You need keypad+mouse to have a perfect aiming, you only need the mouse if the mouse behaves like a joystick: you aim better, you fly and follow enemies better, and since you follow them better and don't go out of the HUD, you missiles will lock in lock-time, you won't need to switch between the keypad and other keys constantly anymore.

If you have a better idea, I'm open to all suggestions.

Don't forget to vote.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Jeff Vader on February 01, 2011, 10:47:51 am: K, one (1) active thread about a given subject kthxbai.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: General Battuta on February 01, 2011, 10:48:33 am: This is actually his first sane reasonable thread on the topic, it can stay open.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: The E on February 01, 2011, 11:07:48 am: Okay, time for a response from a coder.

From a technical POV, implementing something like this should be possible. As the mouse script proves, this can be worked into FSO at some point.

However.

All of this hinges on finding a coder to do it. Us coders are rather busy people, and I am not aware of anyone working on something like this. But we are, obviously, aware of this issue; and sooner or later, someone's going to do it. It's just that we (or rather, I) can't give any estimates on when it might happen. Raising this issue is a good way of making sure it's not forgotten.

At any rate, any new way of interpreting mouse movement must be strictly optional. Because there are a few people (me among them) who are quite happy with FS' default control scheme, and who would be very angry if the control scheme suddenly got changed for everyone.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Sushi on February 01, 2011, 11:33:31 am: It would be nice to have this as a native feature, but we'll need more control over the FSO interface before we can make it a selectable option. Honestly, that's the hard part: the logic to actually implement it isn't too bad (see the mouse script). Integrating it neatly into FSO is where it gets tricky. Like E said, it'll get done eventually, I just don't think it's a priority for any of the coders ATM.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: technopredator on February 01, 2011, 01:12:11 pm: This would have been a perfect reply to my OP in my first thread:

Quote from: mjn.mixael
Yeah.. dude, I've no problem with seeing this feature implemented. Personally, I like how the mouse works right now.. but I know some people don't.

The problem here is your tone. You are harsh, threatening and rude. You are insulting to the admins as well, most of which have made significant contributions to FSO. Just tone it down a bit. Treat us politely and we'll be far more willing to work with you.

Quote from: The E on February 01, 2011, 11:07:48 am
Okay, time for a response from a coder.

From a technical POV, implementing something like this should be possible. As the mouse script proves, this can be worked into FSO at some point.

However.

All of this hinges on finding a coder to do it. Us coders are rather busy people, and I am not aware of anyone working on something like this. But we are, obviously, aware of this issue; and sooner or later, someone's going to do it. It's just that we (or rather, I) can't give any estimates on when it might happen. Raising this issue is a good way of making sure it's not forgotten.

At any rate, any new way of interpreting mouse movement must be strictly optional. Because there are a few people (me among them) who are quite happy with FS' default control scheme, and who would be very angry if the control scheme suddenly got changed for everyone.

Is all I needed to know.

I'm reasonable but I made clear I was pissed off, so you could have taken this more into account before flaming me and behave like jerks to me. In my OP in my first thread I wasn't going against anyone at all, I was just venting my frustration, you didn't have to go an antagonize like it was directed to somebody. If I was against anything, it was the mouse control, not people, nor the devs or the modders, I was just writing in frustration that I couldn't believe nobody did anything about it; that, was before I knew about the mouse scripts, so they actually did something about it.

@Jeff Vader: I don't think I'm the owner of the truth or what is right, nobody is, the truth has no owner so I can be with it or without it, in this case my POV was with it: mouse behaving like a joystick is more efficient than current mouse functionality+ keypad.

I'm reasonable but I was extremely angry, but you're right, I need to tone it down and I'll try not to be harsh, threatening nor rude.

I'm not a native English speaker, I'm from Bolivia.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: General Battuta on February 01, 2011, 01:16:52 pm: And everyone lived happily ever after!

Anyway you can fly totally pro awesome with the keyboard only. keyboards represent
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: technopredator on February 01, 2011, 04:34:05 pm: Quote from: General Battuta on February 01, 2011, 01:16:52 pm
Anyway you can fly totally pro awesome with the keyboard only.

I'd love to see an Youtube video of you being pro awsome on keyboard only, any links?

Many years ago I played keyboard only and it was a a PITA until I mastered but it was always difficult to find the target and maneuver off enemies, also hits % was always 15-20% max. That's why I always played in 'medium' setting, 'hard' was impossible for me.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Sushi on February 01, 2011, 04:47:01 pm: I think it's time we had some
Ultimate team deathmatch
Battle of the input methods

to answer this once and for all! :p
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: General Battuta on February 01, 2011, 04:55:57 pm: Quote from: technopredator on February 01, 2011, 04:34:05 pm
Quote from: General Battuta on February 01, 2011, 01:16:52 pm
Anyway you can fly totally pro awesome with the keyboard only.

I'd love to see an Youtube video of you being pro awsome on keyboard only, any links?

Many years ago I played keyboard only and it was a a PITA until I mastered but it was always difficult to find the target and maneuver off enemies, also hits % was always 15-20% max. That's why I always played in 'medium' setting, 'hard' was impossible for me.

QuantumDelta (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx8uKpRX_ng) was one of the greatest pilots on SquadWar back in the day; he and other top-ranked SquadWar pilots went keyboard. I was never active during the SquadWar days, but we play multi against each other using keyboard, mouse, or joystick and all three types of player do fine - the input method just isn't that important (although keyboard has a slight edge in turning.)

I've finished both FS1 and FS2 on Insane with keyboard, no problem. It's easily the best control method as far as I'm concerne.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: technopredator on February 01, 2011, 07:58:12 pm: Quote from: General Battuta on February 01, 2011, 04:55:57 pm
QuantumDelta (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx8uKpRX_ng) was one of the greatest pilots on SquadWar back in the day; he and other top-ranked SquadWar pilots went keyboard. I was never active during the SquadWar days, but we play multi against each other using keyboard, mouse, or joystick and all three types of player do fine - the input method just isn't that important (although keyboard has a slight edge in turning.)

I've finished both FS1 and FS2 on Insane with keyboard, no problem. It's easily the best control method as far as I'm concerne.

I'll check ouy the video.

If the game was no problem for you on 'insane' setting, you never FRAPed any of your pro awesome missions? how come? it'd be valuable lessons for us who find that the keyboard is by far the worst input method for FS.

Can you tell me how you did on FreeSpace Port - Enter The Dragon (Mission 17) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqhdzWTaDLE)? As the author of the video shows, is a really tough mission specially with keyboard.

Update: I checked the video and the guy was great at looping but as always keyboard fails to follow the targets, what this guy did was to anticipate the movements and move the ship to an interception point, with mouse as a joystick he would have killed them much faster and with less effort, in short, with more efficiency. Where he was shooting a lot were when the target was right in front or not moving much. As you can see, not even one of the best keyboard pilots can follow a target well.

Update 2: This guy uses a kind of joystick on some of his videos.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: QuantumDelta on February 02, 2011, 12:50:03 pm: Enter the dragon is a biznitch, because you have to line up on the subsystem with awkward weapon points.
The keyboard is a pita to get used to after you've used lazymans controls, but honestly the mouse just isn't a good dogfight option.

The only time you see me use something other than a keyboard is when I swap to the mouse, this is normally for precise/long range aiming.

Honestly, the mouse is a pin-point control system, excellent at sniping, and other command and control functions, it is by far the most accurate and scary to fight against in anything other than a 1on1.
The joystick with proper throttle management can out turn a kb, and can almost match mouse for aiming, but it takes a lot of practise, and either some re-congifuration (on modern joysticks) or basically a MS Prec Pro.

The keyboard is the best default turner, and the quickest for reactions, apart from fully mastered joys, it's the best in a dogfight.

The mouse style you are talking about is terribly slow to react at dogfighting at high speed, it severly weakens the mouses potential.

Also, you should check my latest videos, against WoDs Cordi fighters, most of the time I'm too lazy to fully focus, but you can see several instances where I do, and land shots while in full turn, which is a talent you learn to absorb unless you use the mouse.

My honest advice, is higher sensativity, and higher DPI. The mouse is fine.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: General Battuta on February 02, 2011, 01:05:31 pm: Quote from: technopredator on February 01, 2011, 07:58:12 pm
Update: I checked the video and the guy was great at looping but as always keyboard fails to follow the targets, what this guy did was to anticipate the movements and move the ship to an interception point, with mouse as a joystick he would have killed them much faster and with less effort, in short, with more efficiency. Where he was shooting a lot were when the target was right in front or not moving much. As you can see, not even one of the best keyboard pilots can follow a target well.

If this were true then keyboard pilots wouldn't perform so well, but I (a perfectly fine keyboard pilot) can follow a target well and routinely place near or at the top in multi; you're just talking ****.

You've got your answer to the question, now lay off.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: JGZinv on February 02, 2011, 01:11:36 pm: Figuring I had an account in ACE for a while, I can see what you're asking for, Tachyon had the same thing
as a alternative control mode for mice. Freelancer was very similar too. Personally I really don't like it due to the
inaccuracy, but I've seen at least a few people that mastered it and they can wipe me all over the virtual floor space.

I use a trackball mouse + KB. It saves having to move your arm all over and it makes for snap turns with
good accuracy. My weakness is not having as many controls within easy reach.

The main point I'm trying to get at is that each person, depending on natural ability, settings, and what hardware they are aided by,
can be "better" than another player. There is no single end all be all "best" control method.

Unless I'm heavily mistaken, I'm fairly sure there's been some mouse scripts made toward getting Freelancery mouse control.
Might look into that line of searching....
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Shade on February 02, 2011, 01:16:46 pm: Dear god I sucked in that video Battuta linked. I hope I was half asleep at the time or something, because I like to think I'm better than that :p
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: technopredator on February 02, 2011, 08:26:13 pm: @QuantumDelta: I mostly disagree with you. I have finished FS1 twice on 'medium' on keyboard only, I was OK on dogfight but never precise, I even made the loop thing you did in your videos, maybe is just me not good at keyboard. I played with joystick too and was much better, I was playing FS1 on 'hard' this time when I broke 2 joysticks and then I stopped playing.

As a long time ACE Online player I can say first hand the mouse is better than joystick and by far than keyboard on a dogfight on that game, that's why you just don't have keyboard controls. The mouse in FS doesn't work as a joystick so, is not a fair comparison to a FS keyboard performance.

Mouse is best because you slide the mouse in the direction you want and for me is easy to be precise and follow targets very close, with a keyboard you have fine tune your following with lots of keystrokes on the key pad constantly.

The mouse is not a lazy man's device, is just a device that is, by its nature, more efficient than the keyboard, if it works like a fine tuned joystick, like in ACE online not like in FS. Why don't you play ACE online so you can see what I'm talking about? Of course the turning in ACE depends on your engine, a good one would be 130º+ at level 7X+, would take you like 1 week to get there, is not much, considering it takes months to get to level 9X+, the level top is 110.

I wrote that you used joystick because of how you handled the throttle in one of your videos, I think was called "Lost hope part 2"

You wrote yourself, you need a mouse for precision, keyboard might have best turning but you need a lot of practice and keystrokes to achieve the level of precision and easy aiming a fine tuned mouse working as a joystick, I know this as I have demonstrated, and you or anyone else won't convince me other wise.

@General Battuta: OK, you're being impolite so I'll be impolite too: No, I'm not talking ****, YOU ARE, I have described why a fine tuned mouse working as a joystick can beat a keyboard and you come here an insult me and threaten me. Keyboard players perform well because it has high sensitivity on turning and with a lot of practice and keystrokes you get a good player (precise), that doesn't mean is more efficient let alone easier to use than a fine tuned mouse working as a joystick. Is not either fault, is just the way they work.

And you conveniently skipped paragraphs, people do that when they're afraid of losing. So if you're another coward moderator and don't have what it takes to discuss something and you'll ban who ever tries to contradict you, then fine, ban me then, don't forget to flame to be the perfect coward.

@JGZinv You're right, the natural ability also is a factor in performance and of course the personal choice for an input device, I prefer efficiency, little investment high output, hence the mouse as a joystick.

I have this script: Script - Scripted Mouse (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Script_-_Scripted_Mouse) which sucks, is far from fine tuned, if you have a good one please link it.

PS: I made some corrections, those small mistakes changed the entire meaning of some paragraphs.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: General Battuta on February 02, 2011, 08:28:26 pm: I find it admirable how you can manage to have me nodding in agreement in one paragraph and then laughing in delight the next.

I look forward to hearing more about how one can 'win' and 'lose' in a debate about how to fly your video game spaceship. Please continue.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: technopredator on February 02, 2011, 08:58:40 pm: Quote from: General Battuta on February 02, 2011, 08:28:26 pm
I find it admirable how you can manage to have me nodding in agreement in one paragraph and then laughing in delight the next.

I look forward to hearing more about how one can 'win' and 'lose' in a debate about how to fly your video game spaceship. Please continue.

At least I give arguments, you just go, I'm right, because I'm a mod, now stop or I'll ban you, pfffffffft, check your six pilot, before checking mine...
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: General Battuta on February 02, 2011, 09:36:45 pm: Quote from: technopredator on February 02, 2011, 08:58:40 pm
Quote from: General Battuta on February 02, 2011, 08:28:26 pm
I find it admirable how you can manage to have me nodding in agreement in one paragraph and then laughing in delight the next.

I look forward to hearing more about how one can 'win' and 'lose' in a debate about how to fly your video game spaceship. Please continue.

At least I give arguments, you just go, I'm right, because I'm a mod, now stop or I'll ban you, pfffffffft, check your six pilot, before checking mine...

You know, taking advice (if you keep acting like a jerk you'll probably get banned) as a threat (if you keep acting like a jerk I'll ban you) is stupid, but it's doubly stupid when global mods can't even ban people.

How about instead of jumping to conclusions, you keep working on being a sane and productive forum member? You did a good job with this thread after two failed attempts, I'm sure you'll continue to improve.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: KyadCK on February 02, 2011, 10:01:43 pm: not often i post, but figure here is worth it...

your constant argument is that mouse as joystick is better then all others for various reasons, but there is a point of highlight, to quote part of one of your posts: "Mouse is best because you slide the mouse in the direction you want and for me"

those last two words are what i find to be the most important, mouse-joy works best FOR YOU

I personally use joystick and before that i used a joystick/throttle combo, I find it effective and they dont break on me (hell, I still got my old SideWinder 3D Pro), while switching off to the mouse for the occasional maxim sniping on a demon from 2k away where i need pixel by pixel precision... while i have never found keyboard usefull for me, I don't find mouse flying any better, joystick is my preference and I fly best that way. to each their own weapon and all that, no input device will ever 100% top anything else in every way

regardless, you were heard and your idea considered, what more could you want?
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: technopredator on February 02, 2011, 11:44:58 pm: Quote from: General Battuta on February 02, 2011, 09:36:45 pm
You know, taking advice (if you keep acting like a jerk you'll probably get banned) as a threat (if you keep acting like a jerk I'll ban you) is stupid, but it's doubly stupid when global mods can't even ban people.

How about instead of jumping to conclusions, you keep working on being a sane and productive forum member? You did a good job with this thread after two failed attempts, I'm sure you'll continue to improve.

Well genius, here is the thing: is not stupid at all if you consider that any mod can ban people as in most forums I have been happens, so how I was suppose to know some mods can and other can't in this particular forum? And if a mod talks in that tone generally means: "you're in very thing ice, and the ice is all mine so watch it". A repeatedly mistake you make is that you don't consider others POV much or at all, calling me stupid while I was simply reasoning in a way outside your scope of view, I think that is stupid. I'm trying to be a good forum member despite your now constant attacks.

@KyadCK: You seem quite a reasonable fellow, so here is my answer: what I wanted was some kind of demo of his so mentioned 'pro awesome' gameplay, I have never got nothing even close to that and he kept writing that so, I wanted to know, so I asked and he showed me another guys performance and never answered how he did on the mission 'Enter the dragon' and then he focused on another issue and then he finally got pissed off; and I'm the one to blame? right...

I know some reasonable people like yourself have actually understood my POV with very few sentences, but in every forums there are people that will miss the point unfortunately, I don't know if they do it purposely or I can't express myself well in English, and I need to make the point REALLY clear and write LONG walls of texts, which pisses me off and I ***** a little in the middle of it. Others will counter my POV, I have no problem with that as long as you give evidence that support you claims, but some people go: I do good so you must be retarded, or a noob, or doing it wrong, or you just suck at games.

Anyway yes I think maybe, but not sure, is more a natural ability+preference combo that the actual yield of each input device on certain circumstances.

What I really wanted is this game to have a great support for the mouse, since people making changes/mods at the seems they have the ability to change almost anything about FSO, I never intended to polemic the issue.

As for a good joystick: a MS Sidewinder Pro was like 45 $us in my third world Country, that is like 280 $us for a USA citizen in comparison, so spending 14 $us on a generic joystick was more that I wanted to spend on it. Then I shouldn't be playing video games, yeah, probably that's right.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: General Battuta on February 02, 2011, 11:57:09 pm: Yeah, see, those 'constant attacks' are me trying to save you from getting yourself flamed to hell and banned.

Quote
I have never got nothing even close to that and he kept writing that so, I wanted to know, so I asked and he showed me another guys performance and never answered how he did on the mission 'Enter the dragon' and then he focused on another issue and then he finally got pissed off; and I'm the one to blame? right...

You asked for me to post YouTube vids and now you're irritated that I haven't? I don't even have FRAPS installed. Enter the Dragon was piss-easy on Insane, making snapshots isn't tricky.

You've successfully shat up another thread, so if we get one more post in that vein consider it locked. You got extra tolerance because you seemed reasonable at the start of this thread; manage to maintain that tone and you'll keep your threads open.

Quote
I can't express myself well in English

Here's my number one tip: try not calling things retarded because they don't work exactly how you want. My number two tip is to post like you did in the first post in this thread rather than playing thread pyro.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Zacam on February 03, 2011, 12:01:07 am: The existing mouse control could admittedly use a few refinements and an ability to choose some options for HOW it get's implemented.

There are other interface issues to be addressed before that can happen, however. Which means that outside of the current default, the only existing solution lies in the Scripting portion of the engine. If a particular script doesn't do it for you, don't despair, it is possible that somebody else might make a different one, or you can find a way to improve an existing one as an alternative that works closer to what you desire.

Also, joystick and keyboard bindings are also lacking some additional refinements as well which are in the process of being addressed. But in addition to these, there are over a hundred other things also being addressed. (See the SCP Mantis for the current # of open issues) as well as plenty of additional features requested or being worked on...all by a very small number of volunteers in their free time.

So no matter the strength of the argument nor it's tone will do anything to make any changes of any kind occur any faster than they currently are. So while your point is appreciated, and the frustration you feel in not being clearly understood in the manner in which you feel you should be is also understood, moderation of the self in terms of tone and phrasing will do a lot better in maintaining that when the time comes for these changes to begin taking place, you can be valued as someone who will provide critical and important feedback, or you can be disregarded as someone who is just never satisfied and never will be.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: KyadCK on February 03, 2011, 12:13:24 am: While i understand wanting your favorite control style to be integrated into the game (my own first post was asking for dual-joystick support) you need to remember that everyone here that contributes does so for free, on their own time, with the resources they have. As a result asking will get a lot more done then demanding and saying things like "the game will continue to suck until this control type is added".

As you pointed out earlier you were pissed off when you originally started the threads, but in fairness to everyone else thats not their fault nor do they deserve it. They have done an incredible job and a statement like that is kinda just asking for a fight no matter what mood your in. Things tend to go better if you chill out and calmly state your request, or even ask if its possible to do what you want at all. The last thing anyone needs are forums full of anger and demanding.

Anyway, not trying to start a fight, just to help smooth things out.

EDIT: also, as Zacam says above me, they got a lot of reqests already
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: technopredator on February 03, 2011, 01:36:18 am: @Zacam: Point taken. You should be a moderator, that was a pro awesome mod reply, dude (no sarcasm).

@KyadCK: Also point taken, another perfect mod reply.

I apologize to all contributors to this game, I know you have gone a long way improving this game, instead I'll try to help contributing myself making the volunteers number +1 and build with you all a better FSO and community.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: z64555 on February 03, 2011, 01:42:58 am: As several people have already mentioned here before, you cannot really force an irreversible overhaul on the control systems, especially since there is a very good chance that a majority of the people before you have made due and gotten used to what was originally available.

With that comment out of the way, let's going some of the unique attributes of the commonly used controls:

Keyboard:
Digital control. - Velocity/ Acceleration

Movement is generally velocity based or acceleration based, both being set to Maximum when pressed. Very fine movement control is nearly impossible for most beginners, but veteran users of the keyboard can "pulse" the keys to get to a rate lower than Maximum.

Advantages: keyboard places the user's hands near a 100 some-odd keys, allowing a very quick response. Can have 6DoF control.

Disadvantages: since it is a digital controller, movement precision is going to be limited.

Mouse:
Analog control. - Positional

Movement is has been historically position based, meaning moving the mouse x inches will move/rotate y inches in the game. This method has supreme accuracy, but suffers from requiring constant moving when doing sharp turns in spacecraft.

Some games have incorporated a velocity based control system, meaning that moving the mouse x inches will move/rotate at a rate of y inches per second. The method allows smoother control during the turns, but drastically affects precision aiming/sniping.

Advantages: User has supreme precision during standard positional mode. Turning smoothly is improved during velocity mode

Disadvantages: Turning smoothly is problematic during the standard positional mode. Precision is degraded during velocity mode

Trackball:
Analog control. - Positional

Uses essentially the same control system that the mouse uses, however most trackball configurations allow the user to quickly switch from precise movements to smooth and fast turning, simply by changing the way the user spins the ball. Really good trackballs also allow users to spin the ball in one direction for a "long" time, which can compete with the joystick in turning quite easily.

Advantages: Supreme precision for most types of trackballs. Allows for smoother turns than Mouse in positional mode.

Disadvantages: Long turns can be jerky

Joystick:
Analog control - Accelerational

Long-held "de-facto" standard by most flight sims, the joystick's biggest strength is that it allows for very fluid movements. Tilting x degrees will turn y degrees per second in-game. Its primary weakness is that it is not precise, it takes a good bit of wiggling around to just get the craft pointed at a small object far away.

Joysticks hold an ability over mice and trackballs in their positional modes- they can adjust two directions mid-turn.

Joysticks also hold an aesthetic advantage over mice and trackballs. To date, which real-world aircraft have ever used a mouse or trackball as its control system?

Advantages: Aesthetically appeasing. 2 axis velocity adjustments. Supremely smooth turning

Disadvantages: Poor precision

Gamepad
Digital/Analog Control: Velocity/Acceleration

DualShock style gamepads have both digital and analog controls on them, which effectively place them in-between pure keyboards and joysticks. Quite common for console games, the gamepad sacrifices the number of keys for portability and to make room for the two joysticks.

Their joysticks are much less precise than their bigger brothers, do to the significantly shorter lever arms. However, the soon-to-be SixAxis styles will allow users to have full 6DoF velocity/acceleration control while most other combination are limited to 4.

Advantages: Aesthetically appeasing. 2 axis velocity adjustments. Smooth turning. Ability for 6DoF in near future.

Disadvantages: Poorer precision than Joystick, less ability for fine-adjustments.

It should be noted that people have their own preferences. Some people for whatever reason can't use one or more types of controls, due to budget, space constraints, or unavailability of the control type.

Therefore, control systems must be flexible enough to suit an individual person's needs. You cannot simply say "Everybody must use this type of control system, and this type only" nowadays for PC retail. Doing so will result in very few sales.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: QuantumDelta on February 03, 2011, 03:51:10 am: It should also be pointed out that the mouse is the lowest skill requiring input device, and even with the script he wants for it, would be the least reactive ('cept for fine aim which is already the case). Moveover, it would require /even less/ skill.
And, should it be tuned to the point where it can actually be both mouse and joystick, it would break multi completely.

You should try some multi sometime techno, your views will be challenged.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on February 03, 2011, 04:34:11 am: Hey QD, you should see what I posted on the Scariest Ship thread. Just to point out about how much I dread facing a good keyboarder such as yourself...
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: QuantumDelta on February 03, 2011, 05:33:15 am: Yup, but that's not just because of skill on the keyboard, that's because of knowledge of other pilots, like knowing that I should exploit my faster reactions vs joystick users, or not get into a head on with a mouse user, I play to my control interfaces strengths, which to be honest, if other people did (since quite a lot of people are mice users atm, and to be COMPLETELY honest, I hate this, as it distorts peoples views of the game compared to joy/keyboard/even game pad) the same, and play to a mouse users strengths, I wouldn't be able to do those 4v1s very easily at all :P

Instead, they get in ships too light and too weak for their turn speed and just end up as food because I treat them like mediocre joystick pilots, when they could instead be /brilliant/ mouse pilots :<

I suspect that's the problem the Op is having.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Jeff Vader on February 03, 2011, 05:34:09 am: Moved, since this is more of a feature request than a 'problem'.

I don't like how the mouse works in FS right now. I play with a keyboard exclusively, because I don't want to invest into a pleasurestick just for one game. If we were to get some good joymouse functionality into FSO, it would be insanely awesome, because I always liked the mouse control in Freelancer. But seeing how it would require some interface stuff to indicate where you are turning and at what rate (not to mention potentially adding the Freelancer functionality where the guns on your ship would actually turn and follow the targeting reticle), I'm sure it would still require quite a bit of work. So yeah, we probably can't expect it in the near future.

But as many people already said: just because you can't use your favourite contolling scheme doesn't mean you can't play the game well enough. With one clear exception, I've managed to do well with keyboard-only controls in FS.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Dragon on February 03, 2011, 05:41:34 am: Freelancer style aiming isn't nessesary (Parkan II features similar controls to Freelancer, but guns shoot straight all the time).
Indicator would indeed be nice, though another game with such controlls (Starmageddon II) used a simple, movable reticle to indicate position of the mouse.
Also, couldn't mouse flight styles be toggled by a launcher flag instead of interface? It seems to be working for a lot of other things.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Zacam on February 03, 2011, 06:33:57 am: If it can be made an in-game selectable option, so much the better.

Why? When the Launcher works so well?

Well, you see, there is this thing called Desura.

Now, even if Freespace never get's put on it, how many games do you think are on it (or by compare, on Steam or any other platform) that has the additional complexity of such a feature-able launcher as ours? And while ours is nice, if we can make a method for configuring these options in-game (say, at Pilot Select where the game-mode itself hasn't been set yet, allowing us to make customizations to light settings, etc) then so much the easier if all the User has to do is is select "FreeSpace Open" and "Launch".
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Dilmah G on February 03, 2011, 07:19:33 am: Just going to put my 2 cents worth in here - in my opinion, k/m and joystick becomes mostly irrelevant except for specific situations, like turning circles and such like QD mentioned earlier (I believe?). In my experience of dogfighting, both online and offline (admittedly I haven't played FS2 online but I can't imagine it being much different), what matters more is your ability to 'think' the dogfight, and have a large pool of tricks to draw from.

If you can up yourself from being a lead crosshair/enemy aircraft chaser to thinking the dogfight and staying ahead of your opponent, you should be able to succeed no matter what your method of input is. I mean, do you think what you use to control your 'videogame spaceship' is going to matter if you can run the fight through in your head and see what your opponent is doing before he does it, and subsequently counter it?

I mean, if you're going against a keyboard player as a joystick user, keep that in mind and work the fight to your advantages - use the throttle control and keep a good distance to prevent the fight from turning into a jinkfest, where the keyboard user has the advantage, and think ahead and don't fall into a lag pursuit turn that gives the other guy an opportunity to reverse left or extend high and splash you faster than you could crank the stick.

As for the precision with a joystick, if you play on max sensitivity and zero deadzone, precision isn't such an issue as long as your stick isn't a pile of crap that sticks around the centre, in my experience.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: KyadCK on February 03, 2011, 12:02:20 pm: "I haven't played FS2 online but I can't imagine it being much different"

by my experiance it is very very different, its one thing to chase an AI and it trys to dodge you and its buddys come in to get you. its a whole nother if you chase a player, and sudenly they turn full attention to you, whip around and give a nice taste of weapon fire and all the sudden you're in a real dogfight with someone who can guess what you might do next

on the other side of things, online co-op is nice cause instead of getting a team of AI, you get real people who can adapt to the situation and communicate

FS single player is very fun, but i find online better (assumeing reasonable circumstances ofcource, multi with a 1sec ping isnt that much fun)

ofcource, i havent been playin multi for long, others may feel different
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: QuantumDelta on February 03, 2011, 01:01:47 pm: You're both correct ;)
I'll let you work that one out!
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: jr2 on February 03, 2011, 04:18:51 pm: /me has an idea... (for when this eventually gets implemented after the interface code is re-written and what-not)

How about tying the Mouse-as-joystick option to a toggle-key, selectable in the controls menu inside of FS? So, I set the toggle-key to Left Shift ... or, say, the 5th button on my mouse (once that is supported, or Button 3 or w/e). Have the game treat the mouse as a joystick, then when the toggle button is pressed, the "joystick" part of the mouse input gets zeroed (so that you don't get a nasty surprise when it's toggled back on again) and the mouse becomes the sniper's best friend again until it needs to go back to being the dogfighter's (well second) best friend? And maybe have an option as to which mode the game defaults to on startup?

What are the opinions about that idea?

EDIT: Err... I don't want to hijack the thread, should I make my own poll?

EDIT2: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=74348.0 :)
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: General Battuta on February 03, 2011, 04:24:13 pm: I think that suggestion has been answered by coder posts earlier in the thread. It's a nice idea though.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: chief1983 on February 03, 2011, 05:52:02 pm: I can't believe this is 2 pages in and no one mentioned 'command line option' yet. Dunno if I should be proud or not.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Nuke on February 03, 2011, 06:31:07 pm: having played freespace on everything from keyboard, kb and mouse, high end hotas, low end hotas, gamepads, cheap joysticks, arrays of cheap joysticks, diy serial joysticks, diy wireless serial joysticks, and even a wiimote and nunchuck. of course all of this is done through 3rd party utilities, and some of my own utilities that i wrote myself, scripting and a hell of a lot of configuration time.

that said here is my plan for what i like to call an "complete input overhaul":

1: start by switching from direct input to sdl on all platforms, including windows.
sdl can support as many joysticks as are installed in the system. it is also already implemented on non-windows platforms.

2: separate mouse bindings from joystick bindings, make mouse axes and buttons bind-able to any other axis or button respectively.

3: implement mouse modes. which include all the possible features from both wanderer's mouse script and a few from my older script. modes would be standard, mouse as joystick, both (toggleable with keystroke), and any other features i may think of.

4: more binds for axes. such as lateral/vertical thrusters, reverse thrust axis, possibly afterburn axis. also want to do a partitioned throttle (ab/forward/reverse/reverse-ab axes controlled by one axis) which i have done with scripting in the cockpit demo.

5: bindable free-look axes. so that you can have freelook without a trackir, or using keyboard commands. which would allow you to use mice, spare joystick axes, or other motion-control devices to change your view.

6: more keyboard commands, mainly for mouse and freelook modes.

7: interface tweaks to give users control of all the above.

i might dip into the input code myself after a couple things happen. antipodes 8 probably needs to be committed. probably would require the more robust pilot files to work right.
also i want to make sure my particle code is at a state where it can be committed, i dont seem to have much feedback on that since the patch i put up last week.
of course im only going to look at the code, try to figure out how it works. last time i saw it i hid in my closet for 3 weeks because it scared me. its possible that i might be able to figure it out well enough to apply at least some of my planned upgrades. but im not promising anything.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: QuantumDelta on February 03, 2011, 07:30:20 pm: Don't make me be more forceful about the level of alarm and deep distrust I have anyone perhaps other than maybe Karajorma or The_E ****ing around with such stuff, because of how drastically it could effect multiplayer balance.
The most skill requiring interface is currently the one that is the most powerful (Joystick, after several modifications which make it /harder to use/ (read; no deadzone, no centre function, and maximum sensativity)).

The least skill requiring interface is arguably currently the one that is the weakest(if I had to pick one), but still has distinct advantages over the others, and the one which is in between is generally in between both on all counts.

While there are things that could be done to the FSO engine in general, in terms of it's effect on vanilla/mvp FS2, it should be _ZERO_.
Really ZERO. Everything has it's purpose and effectiveness, and Volition did a _VERY_ good job in balancing them.
Giving people the best control mechanism on the laziest, easiest, most-noob-conjested control interface would be an absolute farse.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Nuke on February 03, 2011, 08:46:44 pm: i certainly dont want to break joysticks, since its my primary mode of input. i also dont really want to break the mouse since i often play fs at lan parties and dont have enough joysticks to go around. you can already tweak input externally with 3rd party utilities. i know i use scripting and my own ch profile do some of that stuff. most of which (except scripting) would pass anti-cheating checks in multiplayer, since they are things done by external applications which often operate at the driver level. as far as the game is concerned it sees a joystick. the mere variety of input hardware and utilities makes an impact with multiplayer balance (though i would argue not a massive one). even using a trackir gives you advantage in multi.

you could add multiplayer options to autokick people who use input device x and or or dont use input device y because its unfair to those who dont/do have them. its kind of an argument console gamers would have for forcing every one to use a standard game controller so that everyone has the exact same hardware. but thats not the way to think about pc gaming. lets face it hardware gives you the advantage. do we cap everyones framerate to 30 because its unfair for people with state of the art video cards to get a higher fps? do we force everyone to use stereo instead of 7.1? the point of overhauling the input is a simple one, and that is to take advantage of the new technology. we have to realize that this game came out in 1999, and that a good joystick back then had no more than 4 axes. we now have hotas, joysticks with more than 6 axes, motion controllers, etc. i mean we have upgraded the graphics with normal mapping and shaders, but why not support more joysticks, or use all the axes on the joysticks we have?

ive been around long enough to know not to break compatibility with vanilla data and existing mods. most of the features will be off or unbound by default, or require mods to function. besides there have already been changes to things like joystick sensitivity calculations and new commands added to the list of bindings. they certainly dont break retail, or at least break it enough to matter. furthermore anything i (or anyone else for that matter) write would need to pass code review and be seriously tested before it gets committed.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Sushi on February 03, 2011, 09:21:55 pm: Quote from: QuantumDelta on February 03, 2011, 07:30:20 pm
Don't make me be more forceful about the level of alarm and deep distrust I have anyone perhaps other than maybe Karajorma or The_E ****ing around with such stuff, because of how drastically it could effect multiplayer balance.
The most skill requiring interface is currently the one that is the most powerful (Joystick, after several modifications which make it /harder to use/ (read; no deadzone, no centre function, and maximum sensativity)).

The least skill requiring interface is arguably currently the one that is the weakest(if I had to pick one), but still has distinct advantages over the others, and the one which is in between is generally in between both on all counts.

While there are things that could be done to the FSO engine in general, in terms of it's effect on vanilla/mvp FS2, it should be _ZERO_.
Really ZERO. Everything has it's purpose and effectiveness, and Volition did a _VERY_ good job in balancing them.
Giving people the best control mechanism on the laziest, easiest, most-noob-conjested control interface would be an absolute farse.

:wtf:

Let's just say I vehemently disagree with this.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Goober5000 on February 03, 2011, 10:12:10 pm: Which part?
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: FUBAR-BDHR on February 03, 2011, 11:15:43 pm: I fully agree with QD's point of view that this has the potential to totally unbalance multiplayer. Anyone even using a script altering control should not have their stats saved. Doing it code side is opening up a whole can of worms unless it's configurable and enforced per mod with retail/medaivps/fsport staying unchanged.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Iss Mneur on February 03, 2011, 11:18:17 pm: Quote from: chief1983 on February 03, 2011, 05:52:02 pm
I can't believe this is 2 pages in and no one mentioned 'command line option' yet. Dunno if I should be proud or not.
They did, you missed it. :D Dragon and Zacam. 'toggled by a launcher flag'.

I must be slow on the uptake today, but just to be sure that I have it right:
Quote from: QuantumDelta on February 03, 2011, 07:30:20 pm
The most skill requiring interface is currently the one that is the most powerful (Joystick, after several modifications which make it /harder to use/ (read; no deadzone, no centre function, and maximum sensativity)).
Joystick.

Quote from: QuantumDelta on February 03, 2011, 07:30:20 pm
The least skill requiring interface is arguably currently the one that is the weakest(if I had to pick one), has distinct advantages over the others,
Mouse?

Quote from: QuantumDelta on February 03, 2011, 07:30:20 pm
but still and the one which is in between is generally in between both on all counts.
Keyboard?
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Dilmah G on February 04, 2011, 02:25:09 am: Quote from: KyadCK on February 03, 2011, 12:02:20 pm
"I haven't played FS2 online but I can't imagine it being much different"
Oh, sorry buddy, I should've been more specific here. I meant 'much different' with regards to other sims I've played online, like CFS3, Pacific Fighters, LOMAC, and Falcon 4.0.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: QuantumDelta on February 04, 2011, 03:16:51 am: Pretty much Iss Mneur.

Nuke; the reason I was much more outspoken wasn't your post, but jr2s, I'm sure you would use a script, or something similar, rather than doing it code side, so that we could invalidate the people who are effectively cheating in multi.

I'm still in two minds about that anyway, since it'll basically mean everyone will use the mouse.

Making the mouse the defacto control mechanism is pretty ****ty to start with, since there are mods (mostly TCs) that just ASSUME you use one already. For people who are good with joysticks or keyboards, TCs/Mods that are based on mice play, are not enjoyable. Not at all.
And frankly, not everyone WANTS to play with the mouse(The Joystick is far more fun, no?). If you make it the best control mechanism in EVERY regard though, that's what will happen, and FreeSpace will be worse off for it.

Can you really not see how this is a bad idea? More-over, your argument about 'taking advantages of new technology' doesn't hold up when you're talking about the mouse, the mouse was around with Volition created the game.
Volition /balanced the game/ including the mouse already, and changing it to "have everything", especially the manuverability of a joy, and then the sniping control it currently has at the press of a button, could not break gameplay balance more.

Now I know very little about code(I can follow explanations about it, and make a little sense of decently notated code but beyond that..), and appreciate the hard work by the SCP guys, but these proposed changes have obvious gameplay, and game balance effects.
The two pilots that have most likely put the most flight time in, and certainly the most multiplayer flight time in, dealing with people using all kinds of interfaces, are telling you it will break the game.
Please listen :<
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Nuke on February 04, 2011, 05:23:52 am: Quote from: QuantumDelta on February 04, 2011, 03:16:51 am
Nuke; the reason I was much more outspoken wasn't your post, but jr2s, I'm sure you would use a script, or something similar, rather than doing it code side, so that we could invalidate the people who are effectively cheating in multi.

i dont really consider it cheating. what input code essentially does is scales down the potential values a an analog source to a range of between -1 and 1, and that number is used as a scaler for the engine physics to decide a target velocity (or rotational velocity in case of roll/pitch/yaw) that the physics engine will try to attain based on the ship's table settings. the variable is qualified in that it can never go above 1 nor can it ever go below -1. no matter what physical source the variable comes from, it will always be in that range. improving the mouse, (or keyboard or joystick for that matter) will not effect the maneuverability of the selected ship. and also mouse joy is not exactly as easy or newb friendly as you make it out to be, go play elite with a mouse and tell me how much it improves your accuracy. privateer 2 is another example, damn impossible to play that game with a mouse.

also freespace's mouse support was dodgy from day one. of course it was still the era of the joystick, and a decent joystick could be had for $30 and a high end joystick was a fraction of the price of today's mid-range hotas. many gamers then had joysticks. [v] didnt spend too much time on the mouse support for the game, they just wanted to provide some support for people who didnt have a joystick. now joysticks are kind of an expensive oddity. only people who really own them are heavy into flightsim genres, and people from fps/rts circles are sol. so better mouse support could only bring more people into the game. if it makes one more fps gamer want to play freespace because the mouse support doesnt suck, so much the better for the community. you can still get a cheapie or use a game pad. ive used a wiimote, it was not easy flying.

id like to show up in a multi game with a wiimote, and id struggle to get a kill, of course youd bet the only person id managed to shot down would claim i cheated. furthermore mouse joys could be emulated quite easily with third party software. glovepie could do it. could even toggle modes as well. glovepie is scriptable and can pose as any controller you could imagine. ppjoy also has a joymouse proggy. people who wanted to "cheat" could use that, it works at the driver level so the game would have trouble distinguishing it from a joystick. just to point out that the game can do nothing about these things. at least if its supported at the engine, you have some control over it.

Quote
I'm still in two minds about that anyway, since it'll basically mean everyone will use the mouse.

no it wont. good mouse or not id still use my joystick. its hard enough to round up players for a decent match, i sure as hell aint gonna wait for players that use ch hardware and a trackir to come around for a fair fight. id like fly against people who are doing the best with their chosen hardware, while i do the best with mine. certainly noting is stopping me from using a mouse, except my own preference for the joystick.

Quote
Making the mouse the defacto control mechanism is pretty ****ty to start with, since there are mods (mostly TCs) that just ASSUME you use one already. For people who are good with joysticks or keyboards, TCs/Mods that are based on mice play, are not enjoyable. Not at all.
well thats up to the tc devs. just because they decide to use the fs engine, doesnt mean they should be forced into making a fs clone. say you wanted to make a freelancer clone, it would feel wrong with a joystick. or an rts, joystick certainly wouldnt work there. and this goes both ways, mods can be made to emphasize joystick play. cockpit demo certainly has features tuned specifically at enhancing hotas play.

Quote
And frankly, not everyone WANTS to play with the mouse(The Joystick is far more fun, no?). If you make it the best control mechanism in EVERY regard though, that's what will happen, and FreeSpace will be worse off for it.

everyone can pick their favorite input method. just because flying with the mouse has a couple of new features and options, doesnt mean it will turn every mouse player into a super human death machine. and it certainly aint gonna make joystick enthusiasts use a mouse when they have a perfectly good joystick at hand.

Quote
Can you really not see how this is a bad idea? More-over, your argument about 'taking advantages of new technology' doesn't hold up when you're talking about the mouse, the mouse was around with Volition created the game.

that statement i made had nothing at all to do with mice. it was mostly geared twards new joystick technology, and motion controllers. to support them by extending joystick support.

Quote
Volition /balanced the game/ including the mouse already, and changing it to "have everything", especially the manuverability of a joy, and then the sniping control it currently has at the press of a button, could not break gameplay balance more.

game balance seldom revolves around input. starcraft 2 certainly doesn't cripple the functionality of high dpi mice in favor of less advantaged players with old skool mice. hordes of korean gamers using less than state of the art hardware, and kicking serious ass, certainly could attest to that. fairness is not so much achieved in that all control methods are made equal, crippling some and improving others. fairness is achieved by giving everyone the same options and letting people use the one that best suits them.

Quote
Now I know very little about code(I can follow explanations about it, and make a little sense of decently notated code but beyond that..), and appreciate the hard work by the SCP guys, but these proposed changes have obvious gameplay, and game balance effects.
The two pilots that have most likely put the most flight time in, and certainly the most multiplayer flight time in, dealing with people using all kinds of interfaces, are telling you it will break the game.
Please listen :<

if these pilots are playing in legit matches and winning using mice, it probibly means that they are pretty badass, mainly because the existing mouse flight method is horrible. maybe you consider that these pilots are good not because of their choice of input, but that they are putting in so many hours. franlky id rather better support mouse play, and bring many more players onto the servers, that to leave it as is and keep the same dwindling pool of players we already have. im sure if you put as much time into your joystick as they do with their mice you might stand a chance at beating them.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Shade on February 04, 2011, 05:44:07 am: Input methods are balanced right now. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. The mouse is a downright scary tool in the right hands, as is keyboard and joystick. But while each have their strengths, neither is unquestionably superior to the others.

But if the mouse input is changed so you can toggle on the fly between the current method and the suggested 'mouse as joystick' method, then the mouse will without a doubt be king. You'd get turning on par with the joystick coupled with the accuracy of the current mouse input, and that combination would unbalance multi quite badly. Or rather, it would force everyone to use the mouse to stay competitive. And of course unbalance missions as they're suddenly easier than they were designed to be, something which would also affect single player to a lesser degree.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Nuke on February 04, 2011, 08:03:35 am: at some point you start to question if the game is still a game or not. there are those who play multiplayer for fun, and there are those who play it to get their name at the top of a list. i fall into the former group. while enforcing strict gameplay at the higher rungs of the ladder might seem like a good idea, those gamers are the few. most of us just want to play the game and get the most out of the controls that are available to us. in the event that was a mouse, i certainly wouldn't mind a more intuitive way of flying. it would also make the game engine better in general. while this may be an affront to the nostalgia crowd, there are ways to deal with this.

this is the kind of thing where theoretical input.tbl comes into play. its primary functions are:

1. define a list of bindings that the mod either uses or disables
2. define a list of default bindings for a mod
3. define the default value of input settings
4. define the write privileges of those settings (whether the user may change them or use some mod-defined default).

since most multiplayer matches are based around a particular mod (like the media vps), and since i think that it should be up to the mod to decide what settings are good and which are not. so if someone was so inclined they could make a nostalgia mod to make the game as close to retail as possible.

of course this mod would essentially be running on vanilla data with this table kind of set to retail defaults by default in the code. so essentially when youre running vanilla youre in nostalgia mode. mods may adjust this table to suit their needs of course. so if you have the ladder players stuck in nostalgia mode, then all the people who play the game for all the pretties, and want less masochistic control schemes, they would play with the media vps. this is only an example, not to say that people who value their rankings should have to play without media vps and vise versa. im not so concerned with rankings as i am about trying to get 6 fps gamers to want to play freespace on a lan without hearing them moan about how much the mouse sucks in the game, despite being offered joysticks and gamepads.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: jr2 on February 04, 2011, 09:24:41 am: Ok, let me clear things up a bit: I purchased a used X-45 HOTAS some years ago. The accuracy sucks. Absolutely no accuracy. It either sucked to begin with, or it had been worn down by its previous owner. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn... ok, I take that back. for strafing runs on a large vessel, it's perfect. For dogfighting? Ha. I think it's because it has waaay too much deadspace... you have to over-correct to get where you want, you end of flailing aimlessly. I pretty much have to go mouse-joystick.... however, even that doesn't work cause the darn joystick lists a little to the left, putting me off-course unless I hold it at zero (I think the spring is a bit worn in that case; it doesn't hold it dead center.) I can't afford to buy another joystick... unless it was say a $35 one... but then I'm thinking that'll probably be worse than the x-45.

So I just stick to my mouse and keyboard... which puts me at a complete and utter disadvantage while dogfighting with anyone using a joystick that is accurate. (Or who has spent the time to counter their joystick's innaccuracies).

The way it currently stands, the game favors anyone who can pony up the $$$s for an accurate joystick that works well with FS. Sure, mice are more accurate for long-range sniping. But EVERYONE who has a joystick also has... a mouse!! who woulda thought!? (No rudeness implied, just over-emphasizing the obvious.)

Whether the joystick user chooses to use the mouse or not is irrelevant.... are you going to ban the mouse from multi altogether?! Long range, you have sniping ability... at that range, you can switch from a <real> mouse to a <real> joystick anyways... If you make the game support all input methods to the best of its ability, the best one will be chosen (for the most part).

Really, now, think about it. Does the mouse + keyboard have advantages over only keyboard? Why do some choose to use only the keyboard?

Basically what I'm saying is, if you can't get a joystick, why should you be punished? EVERYONE has access to and uses on a regular basis, the mighty keyboard and mouse. Joysticks, only a few (at this current time) have.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: General Battuta on February 04, 2011, 09:26:47 am: Quote from: Dilmah G on February 04, 2011, 02:25:09 am
Quote from: KyadCK on February 03, 2011, 12:02:20 pm
"I haven't played FS2 online but I can't imagine it being much different"
Oh, sorry buddy, I should've been more specific here. I meant 'much different' with regards to other sims I've played online, like CFS3, Pacific Fighters, LOMAC, and Falcon 4.0.

edit to sound less dumb

It's pretty different, it's kind of the Call of Duty to realistic flight sims' SWAT 4 or whatever. You really don't have to think about all that stuff.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: chief1983 on February 04, 2011, 09:59:02 am: What is this about inputs being balanced? If a particular control scheme can be made more effective, go for it. As long as we're not talking about using an aimbot or something to increase effectiveness, any input should be able to be utilized to the best of its ability. Saying that it shouldn't be changed because it might give one input an advantage over another is silly. It doesn't even agree with the usual statements I hear. How often have I heard that keyboard is already the best interface there is, as the best multi players have used it? And now you're telling me that they're balanced? That would mean the best players would still be a mix of kb, mouse, joystick, etc.

So, since the inputs obviously aren't balanced, according to your own statistics, enabling joystick and mouse inputs to be more effective sounds like a good thing to me. I'd love to have more versatile, configurable, and effective joystick support. Otherwise, balance just means that a player with no additional input peripherals can always get good enough to beat any joystick player. That's the opposite of balance.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Nuke on February 04, 2011, 10:18:09 am: i also kinda have to throw this out there: the joystick sensitivity calculations have, in the history of the scp, been tweaked at least once before. does that not give joystick players an advantage? should we not allow for ramping settings on the keyboard controlled axes to compensate?

and all you people who think that joysticks are innacurate:
1. dont understand how the sensitivity bar works
2. dont have my ch fighterstick which has been broken in over the course of several years now (and it gets better with age)
3. is a gorilla who slams his joystick to the extremes in a vain attempt to make the ship do something precise. in which case youre better off mashing keys.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Dragon on February 04, 2011, 12:01:31 pm: I've gone from Logitech Wingman Force 3D to CH Fighterstick and I must say that the former is more precise due to small area of motion and adjustable centering strenght. Because of that, Force 3D may be better for the begginers. CH Fighterstick and most likely other spring-centered joysticks (like an old, 2 button one I once used) have a larger area of motion, strong (and not always adjustable) springs, making such joysticks more difficult to use. People who start on spring-centered joystick may find them imprecise. Of course, for more experienced players, centering type shouldn't really matter (then, CH Fighterstick is better, because of amount of buttons it has).
Of course, if springs are worn out, spring centering can get as mild as FF centering (my Fighterstick isn't new, but previous owner rarely used it).
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Shade on February 04, 2011, 12:22:15 pm: Quote
How often have I heard that keyboard is already the best interface there is, as the best multi players have used it? And now you're telling me that they're balanced? That would mean the best players would still be a mix of kb, mouse, joystick, etc.

Whoever has said keyboard is 'best' is simply wrong. And they may simply be mistaken based on having flown against an extremely skilled keyboard player. It's best for some things. As is the joystick, and the mouse. As for the other thing, the (in my opinion, naturally - and this is probably biased since I play with them often) three best currently active players in the multi community happen to use keyboard, joystick and mouse, respectively.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Sushi on February 04, 2011, 05:08:01 pm: Nuke, you're my new hero. Everything you've said on this thread is spot-on, and expressed much better than I could have managed myself. :yes2: :cool: :yes:
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Nuke on February 04, 2011, 05:45:59 pm: Quote from: Dragon on February 04, 2011, 12:01:31 pm
I've gone from Logitech Wingman Force 3D to CH Fighterstick and I must say that the former is more precise due to small area of motion and adjustable centering strenght. Because of that, Force 3D may be better for the begginers. CH Fighterstick and most likely other spring-centered joysticks (like an old, 2 button one I once used) have a larger area of motion, strong (and not always adjustable) springs, making such joysticks more difficult to use. People who start on spring-centered joystick may find them imprecise. Of course, for more experienced players, centering type shouldn't really matter (then, CH Fighterstick is better, because of amount of buttons it has).
Of course, if springs are worn out, spring centering can get as mild as FF centering (my Fighterstick isn't new, but previous owner rarely used it).

you really need to break in the springs in a ch fighterstick. at first i kinda thought i wasted my money. but after using it for a year i found the tension was perfect. and youd think they would have worn out by now but they havent.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Zacam on February 04, 2011, 06:08:22 pm: Same with my Saitex X52-Pro. Though I just took the 'main' shaft spring out (leaving the plate).

There is still a secondary sub-spring, but that kinda helps not grinding at the extreme outside, which I don't really need to go to with a modified dead-zone.

And while it controlled perfectly in FSO to some extent, not nearly as much as I would have liked.

I should have done this sooner.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: jr2 on February 05, 2011, 01:04:07 pm: Anyone know if my x45 is worth trying to fix/break-in/tweak to be usable as something other than a paperweight?
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: chief1983 on February 05, 2011, 02:29:42 pm: I'd imagine you can remove the spring from the stick, and the throttle resistance is already adjustable, so what else do you need?
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: JGZinv on February 05, 2011, 03:34:29 pm: Just for the folks that are perhaps a bit overzealous about mouse as joystick being the
perfect combination of control and being too powerful...

Well I'd give you these as representative videos:

Tachyon's "Mouse/stick"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53xZBciFppE
Trackball mouse gameplay for comparison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg6u5o0Fonk

Ace Online's mouse/stick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-36y5ss4AA

Freelancer example again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUcMsPt68Ws

Maybe some folks find it better than other methods, but I'd still hold that
it's quite far from the perfect combination.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: z64555 on February 05, 2011, 04:24:46 pm: Well crud, *runs back to training simulations*
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Nuke on February 05, 2011, 07:55:37 pm: Quote from: jr2 on February 05, 2011, 01:04:07 pm
Anyone know if my x45 is worth trying to fix/break-in/tweak to be usable as something other than a paperweight?

me personally, id hack the **** out of it. what saitek has, (other than crappy spring mechanisms and massive dead-zones), is really comfortable grips. it would be nice to get an old sidewinder and frankenstein the saitek handle to it. that would make one mean joystick.

Quote from: JGZinv on February 05, 2011, 03:34:29 pm
Just for the folks that are perhaps a bit overzealous about mouse as joystick being the
perfect combination of control and being too powerful...

Well I'd give you these as representative videos:

Tachyon's "Mouse/stick"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53xZBciFppE
Trackball mouse gameplay for comparison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg6u5o0Fonk

Ace Online's mouse/stick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-36y5ss4AA

Freelancer example again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUcMsPt68Ws

Maybe some folks find it better than other methods, but I'd still hold that
it's quite far from the perfect combination.

i remember in decent 3 i used my sidewinder to steer the ship, but i used the mouse to control the lateral/vertical trusters, and that was a mean combination. i can imagine people who fly primarily with a joystick, bot only own a one hand stick, could control throttle and roll with the mouse in the left hand. thats kind of the stuff i want to make possible.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Wanderer on February 06, 2011, 12:32:04 pm: To be honest i find this discussion about not improving the controls very odd. About as logical as shooting yourself into leg. There have been people new to the FS who had not have joystick (rarity these days - though availability of PS etc console sticks and lot might slowly change that) and who did not like the keyboard controls and found the mouse control too problematic to play with. In short abandoned the game as it lacked proper controls. I fail to see how not improving the controls would help this in any way.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: jr2 on February 06, 2011, 02:28:59 pm: I have a suspicion that what it boils down to is a fear of loosing an edge. You see, whilst the mouse may be more accurate, you can throw it off by flying evasively (especially considering you have that joystick, which is king of using all of the turning thrust that is supposed to be available to any given ship class). Once you close in, you can easily outfly the mouse, as he can't use all of his ship's capability. (You, meanwhile, could have if you chosen, let go of the joystick and sniped it out long range, which you probably would have (or logically should have) if you had a longer range weapon than your opponent.) So your opponent is stuck at a disadvantage, which is multiplied if his ship has less turning capability than yours, as he can't use all of his capabilities, which are already less than yours, thus making him easy pickings for you.

In short, the closer all inputs come to unlocking the craft's full specified (in other words, what should already be there by the book) turning and maneuvering potential, the closer the experience becomes to a match of skill and tactics, instead of who has better hardware to pull the full potential from their craft.

Time and time again in single player, I have found myself in a dogfight, using the number pad to turn... I finally overtake my opponent (either by my craft's superior turning capability, a mistake on the other AI pilot's part (rare!), or by cutting my circle short), only to lose my edge as soon as I switch to mouse... I don't know if this makes sense, but I use the number pad and the mouse to pull up (or sideways if I'm flying a Ulysses); I get more that way. The mouse can pull more of my craft's turning potential than the keyboard (at least with my settings), however, I need the number pad so I don't stop turning when I need to pick up my mouse. Usually that is about when the shields on my opponent have dropped and I'm about to make the kill. The pick-up-drag is enough to put a few shots off, let my enemy escape, equalize his shields, and I am delayed.

Perhaps with mouse-joystick I might venture above Easy or Medium difficulty.

(If you think the mouse can be frustrating, well, a few (7?) years back, when I was still using a mouse with a ball under it, when the rollers got dirty... yeah, now that's frustrating. :ick:
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: General Battuta on February 06, 2011, 02:42:38 pm: Why are you switching from number pad to mouse? :wtf: Just aim with the numpad.

Anyway, your argument is basically invalidated by the fact that the top-rank multiplayer guys use all three control inputs and do equally well. They each have their own strengths and weaknesses.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: jr2 on February 06, 2011, 02:59:02 pm: Hah.

The keyboard is required to switch weapons, manipulate shield, etc (unless you have a bazillion buttons on your joystick).

The mouse is crippled.

Of course if they have a joystick it's the best turning instrument around (as it's not hobbled by needing a reset every two seconds like the mouse).

EDIT: And the number pad will nicely get either the left bank shooting empty space (if I tap left) or the right bank doing the same on the opposite side if I tap the other way. Yes I could get it just right. No, a life-or-death dogfight at 12% hull integrity is not the place to be fighting your darn input device.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: General Battuta on February 06, 2011, 03:13:02 pm: I've had no troubles turning with joystick users or aiming with mouse users on a keyboard. I feel like the differences between the input devices are largely minimized by practice.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Shade on February 06, 2011, 05:47:01 pm: jr2, you might be surprised to learn that one of the best of the current crop of multi players (and one of less than a handful who are within striking distance of QuantumDelta in a dogfight) uses the mouse. Crippled? I think not. The fact is that given equal skill levels, the current controls are very well balanced against one another. Do not mistake your own problems with the mouse for anything other than your own problems - In the right hands, it is deadly.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: chief1983 on February 06, 2011, 11:42:22 pm: Call me old old school, but I still have a hard time fathoming playing a game like this without a joystick. Maybe it's because XvT required a joystick and those were my multi golden days.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: z64555 on February 06, 2011, 11:48:46 pm: Arguments aside, I still haven't seen any real reason to NOT update the code.

Sushi's newest script works great so far, it just needs some polish and the ability to assign the toggle key to anything the user wants (which, to my understanding requires hard-cord).
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Herra Tohtori on February 07, 2011, 01:11:52 am: Okay, input methods and their balance. Wall of text approaching....

There have already been changes in at least one input device from retail to improve it. Namely, the joystick sensitivity settings have been changed to a more sensitive curve, which means that you actually can now use settings other than full sensitivity (although I still consider that the best if you have a stick with small enough deadzone). If we wanted to stay completely pure about how Volition balanced the input methods, this shouldn't have been allowed to happen.

Now, I realize that this issues isn't quite perfectly analogous - the sensitivity curve formula used to be absolutely horrible on any other settings than full sensitivity since it lowered the sensitivity around deadzone way too much and then had a sharp spike to the maximum input which actually made the joystick very, very impossible to use to any great effect - but it was still an improvement to one of the input methods from the retail. What it didn't do was give the joystick abilities it didn't use to have. The full sensitivity setting is still the most effective way of using the joystick, but the sensitivity settings change hopefully made it easier for people to start using it in the first place.

Then some technical stuff.

Currently, what the mouse input does is it reads the speed of the mouse, and translates that into the angular velocity at which the ship turns. It doesn't mean you can move your mouse to a certain position on table and the ship will move to pointing at certain spot, then move mouse back to original spot that it used to point at.

What this means is that there's a maximum speed at which you should move your mouse to maximize the effectiveness of your turns. If you move the mouse faster than the ship can turn, the only thing that happens is that you lose table space while the ship will feel like it turns very sluggishly (compared to your frantic mouse waving).

Mathematically speaking,

Input x = dx/dt * sensitivity | speed of mouse on x axis, multiplied by mouse sensitivity setting
Input y = dy/dt * sensitivity | speed of mouse on y axis, multiplied by mouse sensitivity setting

Don't know the exact code that defines the mouse control handling, but this is more of an idealized formulation of how it (supposedly) works.

What the proposed change would do is to assume a center position for the mouse, and poll deflection from that point of origin and directly (or as a function of that deflection) translate it into input strengt:

Input x = dx * sensitivity | location of mouse on x axis, multiplied by mouse sensitivity setting
Input y = dy * sensitivity | location of mouse on y axis, multiplied by mouse sensitivity setting

This effectively turns your table into an XY plane where the mouse moves in, defining the strength of X and Y control inputs.

The biggest difference here is that the latter scheme is actually less intuitive than the former. We have been indoctrinated to assume that when we do not move the mouse, the cursor does not move. Similarly, we assume that when we don't move the mouse, the target reticle will stop moving (ship will stop turning) and in current control scheme it does exactly that - you are required to move mouse to keep the target reticle (cursor) moving. But, instead of being able to move the cursor around at whichever speed you please, you are limited by ship's performance, which is independent of any control method you choose.

So, the big advantage of velocity polling mouse interface is that it is intuitive and accurate, which are both direct result of the fact that the movement stops when mouse stops.

This advantage is lost when the interface is changed to position-polling system, but it gains some of the advantages and all the negative aspects of a joystick. The advantage being that you now have analog control over two of the control axes while not losing table space with every movement, and you don't need to move the mouse over the desk to keep on turning.

And that's about it. It doesn't give you an analog Z axis as twist handle joysticks do. It does not give you a feel for what input you are giving to the game, because unlike joystick, the mouse's movements are only limited by the size of your desk space rather than the gimbal angles of a joystick, and this also means you do not gain a clearly palpable center zone, which would likely make aiming even harder than with a joystick. The mouse also does not automatically re-center, although to gain even marginal useability a centering function would likely be required (similar to the mouse script I remember having). Of course, that can also be seen as an advantage because centering springs in many sticks often cause mechanical discontinuities in the friction on moving the joystick, which on Queen's English means that the joystick's movement can become jerky over deadzone when the direction of resistance doesn't smoothly go to zero and start increasing, but instead has sharp "spikes" on it (this is a classic symptom of Saitek's centering mechanism, and one of the reasons I have removed all centering springs from my sticks).

The point of this rambling is that I don't see the "moustick" as an automatic game-breaker superior input mechanism, even combined with the current mouse control.

As such, I have no objections to it being coded in if some valiant coder samurai sees it fit to put in, but I also recognize the argument that switching between different mouse modes in-flight with a hotkey could be a recipe for disaster, and hence propose that either the change option is disabled during missions, similarly to difficulty options which would mean players would have to choose their method of input and stick with it for the mission. The idea of having it as a toggleable option in config screen is also valid as it too would prevent switching between modes during a dogfight.

Or instead of making it globally supported automatically, it could be a FRED flag for mission files, as in " moustic " (allows mouse joystick behaviour)...
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: z64555 on February 07, 2011, 12:59:45 pm: Argument recognized (thanks so much for dumbing it down for us! :D)

Well, my opinion on the matter would be to allow for scripts or FRED methods to prohibit mouse mode toggling, as you have suggested.

I believe that the toggle would be a very nice feature, but I also recognize that people have their own opinions on the possibility of it breaking gameplay. As such, I see that it would be a good idea to have some sort of option server-side for multiplayer to disallow usage of the toggle button and force an F2 mouse mode re-configuration mid-flight.

I am potentially against using said safe-gaurd for singleplayer, however. I believe that it is up to the players themselves to choose which method is best for them and not for the mappers to decide (however, it could provide a good plot element, i.e. such as the equipment malfunctions and the player is forced to use one or the other method until the RCO fixes it).
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Spoon on February 07, 2011, 02:44:19 pm: All I want for the mouse is a higher sensitivity, so a single swipe with the mouse to a side will instantly put the ship to it's max turning speed.

Also, I have to add that I find this "multi balance" talk just plain silly sounding. For reasons already said by Nuke before me.
And really, how many people are playing multi actively these days? 30 if you scrap the very bottom of the barrel? Is there a ladder, active competitions? money to win? Bragging rights?
'Balance' means jack**** in this case :/
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: KyadCK on February 07, 2011, 10:27:36 pm: If anyone is actualy paying attention to the supposed "no mousejoy! will unbalance game!" arguments, you'll notice most of them are not opposed to the 4th control type, but the ability to switch from mousejoy to normal mouse at the click of a button. Make it (atleast for multi) an option that must be changed in options with no way for a bind-able toggle key and almost the entire argument goes away

And arguing that joy/key users can just switch to mouse is unfair, it takes at least a quarter second to get our hand there (more then enough to lose a target since during that time we stop turning entirely) and if unlucky even have to take our eyes off the screen assuming we don't just knock it off the table, its not something that can be done mid-dogfight with ease
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: jr2 on February 10, 2011, 04:39:57 pm: If the mouse becomes as good (or close) as a joystick, while retaining its mouse capabilities, joystick users could switch.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: QuantumDelta on February 10, 2011, 05:35:44 pm: Zacam has convinced me to re-write this when I calm down.
I am still absolutely livid at you, and your mentality.
So for now I shall leave this at "How DARE you force your play style on other people."
And don't for a second suggest that you wouldn't if that was what was required to get this the way you wanted it.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Zacam on February 10, 2011, 05:45:56 pm: Thank you for sharing, QD. While I appreciate (and even +1 the desire to not see the mouse become the "One Control to Rule them ALL"), and while I understand and can commiserate the frustration (and far be it from me to ask anybody to censor themselves), I was kinda hoping that you might have maybe put it just a WEE bit differently.

It's one thing to have the opinion (for either right or for wrong) but any ground that you could gain from the merit of your conviction get's lost when it is dressed in dross.

I hope before ANYBODY else decides to address this in any way STOPS for a moment, thinks about it, and addresses the situation in as de-personalized/objective a manner as possible ~~and we'll see if an edit comes by the authors hand to more saliently address the point. And even if it's NOT edited by the author (and I'm having a hard time remaining impersonal about this) then~~ I think the more meatier subject to discuss regarding it is and should remain focused on the controls, or just letting this simmer down and die out until a Feedback call is made to test out builds.

EDIT: Just to add. I hate the thought of "mouse as joystick". Makes me sick to my stomach actually. But then, I don't play this game with a mouse and I cannot conceive of ever NOT owning a joystick. But I do know that I didn't like it in Freelancer, or Aces or anything else that pandered to "Mouse RULZ!!eleventy!1". But I'm also not going to impede the progress of allowing the mouse to have it's day either. I do hope nobody is stupid enough to put in a hot-toggle though. You can either use the mouse as a mouse or as a joystick, no second guessing like schizophrenics week on jeopardy mid-mission. After all, while joystick users may have the OPTION to move their hand to the mouse, a REAL joystick user re-configures deadzone and sensitivity so that they don't have to.

I'd even allow the ability to use mouse-as-joy in multi. Up to a point. You want to play in a Ranked or Validation game though, you don't get that option. Because those games are about "as retail as it gets" which means if you want to duel with a mouse, then you use the mouse as it was originally written.

**Further Edit to address edit by QD
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Sushi on February 10, 2011, 06:00:06 pm: Quote from: Zacam on February 10, 2011, 05:45:56 pm
... or just letting this simmer down and die out until a Feedback call is made to test out builds.

No need for builds... we have a toggleable mouse script right now. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,74435.0.html) Judge for yourself whether it heralds the coming of the apocalypse, whether it's the best thing since Gouda cheese, or whether the rumors of its impact are greatly exaggerated.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: QuantumDelta on February 10, 2011, 06:38:57 pm: Right.
In an attempt to make it as impersonal as I can, and summarising so that it's less likely that the rage I have over this shows through...

It doesn't matter what control interface you use in FreeSpace, they are all balanced, none is lesser than the other, (with the slight exception of a lot of effort put into joystick settings and hardware modifications for a ..5%? if that? (and most of it comes from the throttle tbh..)performance advantage over the others), everyone in SquadWar season 3 had come to the peak of this games player performance, some plateau'd because there is some limits to the game that simply cannot be surpassed, that plateau was met most closely by three players.

I was one of the three.
I ranked in at a close #2, on the keyboard, #1 was a joystick user, and #3 was a mouse user (if it matters any, #4 was a track ball thingy user).

Having been playing this game for well over a decade, with thousands of pilots in multiplayer, I am thouroughly convinced that the interfaces are equal, and that player skill is the single most important factor. Why? - Because through all the generations of people playing this game, the good players (I sort of exclude myself from the current generation slightly.. same as fubar..) have surfaced regardless of interface, in fact, at the moment they are mostly mouse users, online (very small majority). If you count the people who have only known FSO multi, the mouse users are DEFINITELY the best pilots out of everyone currently flying and the difference is EXTREMELY obvious in a dogfight.

Even though I'm summarising I have gone through great lengths to detail out that the mouse is not in any way the weaker interface.
Why? - Because this is the general perception, however, this is the general perception for two related reasons.

The mouse is also the most commonly used interface.
The mouse is the interface most commonly used by the people who are not as good at the game.

The idea that the mouse is bad is a complete logical fallacy, and those that believe that it is in any way should do a lot of soul searching and ask themselves if it's really the mouse that's failing them, and if it is, why they haven't migrated to the keyboard (which is just as universal as the mouse), or the joystick (which most tout as clearly superior).

The reason this script has been requested was because people want to pamper to the lowest common denominator, well, that is wrong. It is wrong because people who are /not/ bad, already use that interface, and they will gain from the script as well.
The reasons this is wrong are a few fold;

1) People already build mods around the mouse as a control mechanism - and this will make it worse, for those who do not use the mouse, certain ships, and certain mods, are virtually unplayable, simply because the mouse can exert too fine a degree of control for the other mechanisms to be able to emulate.

To prevent this second one, as long as I have any say in project multi there will be no such scripts existance in proper gameplay, period. You wanna use this script? No stats, no stats means no squadwars either, upon it's return.

2) People will use this to gain a competitive edge over others in multi, and this will force anyone who was on the same level as whoever it is they're competing with before, will have to follow suit, or be left behind. Very likely after a time, me included.

3) People will use this control interface and learn the game in this playstyle, and if/when they ever want to play multi, be forced to turn it off and learn to play the game properly all over again.

This is a major anti-noob stopping problem, because there is absolutely no way to marry up a script that can swap between the best turning and perfect aim with multi-play. Period. It will NEVER work.

Gonna stop there because it will really erupt into flaming again.
Wasted over an hour on this and I'm still pissed.
Title: Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Post by: Zacam on February 10, 2011, 07:01:13 pm: Think of this like a BMX Competition Circuit.

Now, suppose you have an inner ear imbalance or something that makes it virtually IMPOSSIBLE for you to ride a normal bike. BUT, you really REALLY love BMX. Do you think the BMX Commission is going to give you the nod to freestyle in a competition with Training Wheels on your bike?

They're not.

Doesn't stop you from forming your own circuit, mind you. And you can cite that it's "unfair" until you are blue in the face. And hey, you'd be right...it's not your fault after all.

But that really only works in the above given scenario. As outlined, the mouse IS viable as a control mechanism. And to repeat (though I severely dislike it) I can understand that some people are just too used to how they THINK a mouse SHOULD work (in a flight sim) to over come their own limitations and instead, want to insist that it operate differently. And that option is available, and I suggest providing feedback on the recently revised script if you feel it is lacking in some fashion. But I cannot honestly foresee this ever becoming a "built in" feature to replace the existing structure simply because there are still MANY active members that already use the mouse as it currently is coded and the complexities (with an already small coding staff as it is) of implementing it as an "in addition to" don't really make it feasible at this time.

So, with Sushi having kindly provided a revised script (and I believe it's in the Modding->Scripting Section) I'd suggest that any conversation regarding it take place THERE. And any further discussion about if/when or HOW it may ever be officially coded in the engine left to internal discussion. But for now, I think this thread and the other have already gone on long enough and temperatures (and tempers) have already risen more than enough for this to continue being useful.

Requesting lock.