Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: StargateSpankyHam on February 26, 2011, 05:32:54 pm
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Well, here it is. I am building a mod, and I'm curious to see what people would like to have revealed about our favorite genocidal space monsters, the Shivans. Are they best left as a mystery? Should we finally get a good, solid gaze into the Freespace universe's ultimate antagonists?
I've got some excellent ideas for going so far as to make whole Shivan personas and characters. I'm curious to see what the reaction would be to finally showing the Shivans.
I encourage you to vote, even if you don't reply. :)
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Surprise us. I trust you can come up with something profound- your mod, your rules.
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What IronBeer said. Many in the community will react negatively to revealing more info about the Shivans, but don't be discouraged. Make your mod whatever you want it to be. Personal accomplishment comes first, public opinion second. I personally would like your take on the Shivans - give us some more info, but leave some questions ultimately unanswered.
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Just out of curiosity, has anyone else ever made a mod like this, with the Shivans as a highly developed species? Preferably with Shivan characters? Tides of Darkness was pretty cool, but are there others?
If so, I'd like to play through them for inspiration.
If not - WOW! I'm going to be carving a brand-new path! :cool:
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There was a mod called "Shivans!" where the player plays as a Shivan, but I think that may have been a partial parody. AFAIK, Shivan characterization has not been attempted much because many in the community feel strongly about the ambiguity of the Shivans' nature and intentions. Like I said before though, don't let that discourage you. I, for one, would like to see such a campaign simply because I haven't played anything like that before.
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Good luck!
This might help, if you haven't seen it yet: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=74745.0
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Good luck!
This might help, if you haven't seen it yet: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=74745.0
Yeah you should read that if you haven't. You don't have to abide by it though.
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I haven't played Tides of Darkness; but my view is more along the lines of 'it's cool, but as long as you do it well.' That is, to me, Shivans should be alien, not a expy of some human culture or easily explainable with reference to human ideas but with some kind of consistency or logic at the edges of what humans can grasp. I think it'll always be difficult to write, with us being merely human and operating within certain bounds of thinking, but good luck to you if you try it.
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No offense to anyone, the Shivans as portrayed in Tides of Darkness weren't very interesting. They lost their distinctive characteristic mystique and blended into the background noise of that mod for me.
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It's okay to provide some insight, at a tactical level; but never reveal a why.
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I voted for an option not many bvoted on which is:
Reveal the Shivans all the way to the point of incorporating enemy Shivan characters in the storyline. Let's get to know them personally.
It would be interesting to know more about this race, the way they think , plan attacks explore , how the see the universe, what is their devinity on their own future, what made them see the terrans and versudans as hostiles, what is their main goal to live towards for?
Where do they come from what climate do they need to survive, also what type of technologies do they have in advantage over the terrans and versudans and what are their weaknesses and so on.
To be more open about the enitre Shivan race would be very interesting and to see a shivan cast in a Freespace2 Campgn or Freespace 3 campagn would be very nice to see happening even if they use their own language as communicatiosn go, all you'd need is some english translated diologs so you can read along what they are saying.
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It'd be interesting but (no offense) there's hardly anyone in the community I'd trust to write them with any degree of integrity. Big name SF dudes like Alastair Reynolds fail at tasks like this hardcore.
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I understand your concerns - and I know that it's an enormously ambitious project, just from a writing perspective.
The Shivans will have some truly terrifying reasons for their genocidal onslaughts. They're not going to be doing it just out of survival, or out of fear, or because of some scarring event in their species' past. They won't be after some singular objective that, after accomplishing, they'd leave us alone. Most importantly, they're not going to be mindless killers, and they're definitely not going to be insane psychopaths. They're going to be able to justify their actions as right - to the point where the GTVA will not be able to claim the moral high ground. And yes, they will be just as relentless as they were in Freespace 1 and 2.
Ultimately, it's going to go back to that line from Freespace 1: "The great destroyers are also the great preservers," but this time, taken further. The Shivans perpetually destroy, in order to create. They are not the preservers of the present, but instead, preservers of the future. They destroy because it's the right thing to do.
Also, from a strategic perspective, I'm going to reveal the actual sources of Shivan warships. They don't have planetary shipyards and such, like the GTVA. They have to build everything out in the vacuum of space. Shivan supercarriers can manufacture fighters and bombers by the hundreds, and the Shivans' mobile colonies act as supersized versions of the GTL Anemoi / GVL Tawaret, but with the capability to build new warships.
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This all sounds very cool but I think you should avoid telling us stuff beforehand.
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It'd be interesting but (no offense) there's hardly anyone in the community I'd trust to write them with any degree of integrity. Big name SF dudes like Alastair Reynolds fail at tasks like this hardcore.
This.
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I understand your concerns - and I know that it's an enormously ambitious project, just from a writing perspective.
The Shivans will have some truly terrifying reasons for their genocidal onslaughts. They're not going to be doing it just out of survival, or out of fear, or because of some scarring event in their species' past. They won't be after some singular objective that, after accomplishing, they'd leave us alone. Most importantly, they're not going to be mindless killers, and they're definitely not going to be insane psychopaths. They're going to be able to justify their actions as right - to the point where the GTVA will not be able to claim the moral high ground. And yes, they will be just as relentless as they were in Freespace 1 and 2.
Ultimately, it's going to go back to that line from Freespace 1: "The great destroyers are also the great preservers," but this time, taken further. The Shivans perpetually destroy, in order to create. They are not the preservers of the present, but instead, preservers of the future. They destroy because it's the right thing to do.
Also, from a strategic perspective, I'm going to reveal the actual sources of Shivan warships. They don't have planetary shipyards and such, like the GTVA. They have to build everything out in the vacuum of space. Shivan supercarriers can manufacture fighters and bombers by the hundreds, and the Shivans' mobile colonies act as supersized versions of the GTL Anemoi / GVL Tawaret, but with the capability to build new warships.
I'm somewhat curious about this. Ok. But don't make it too moralistic, specially on humans, and particularly on ecological grounds.... it makes terrible writing, and it's such a bad cliché... I know only of one example where this worked well, "The day the earth stood still" (original one, hey).
You'll have your own ideas. If I'd use morality as an issue, I'd try to get a very alien moral dillema, for instance one where we humans feel that it is the best thing about us, and shivans regard it (and prove it somehow) that such a characteristic is in fact endangering the whole galaxy to be torn apart. "Love" would be too cocky. Perhaps I'd try to go with "Irony" or "humour". Don't ask me how, I'm no writer.
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I have yet to see any Shivan characters written well.
(I should finish reading that old fic "Leader for the Shivans" though, I hear it's good)
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I have yet to see any Shivan characters written well.
(I should finish reading that old fic "Leader for the Shivans" though, I hear it's good)
"Kobayashi-narlu"? WTF?
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I have yet to see any Shivan characters written well.
(I should finish reading that old fic "Leader for the Shivans" though, I hear it's good)
"Kobayashi-narlu"? WTF?
What are you talking about
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Sounds like "Kobayashi Maru". The no-win training scenario for starfleet officers from Star Trek.
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I have yet to see any Shivan characters written well.
(I should finish reading that old fic "Leader for the Shivans" though, I hear it's good)
"Kobayashi-narlu"? WTF?
What are you talking about
The subtitle to the second episode of "Leader for the Shivans".
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Time to read back at the Shivan Manifesto again...:nod:
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Time to read back at the Shivan Manifesto again...:nod:
loool
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I think I'd pick the one that's "personal". I believe the best way to interpret something mysterious is to approach it in a humanly philosophical way, in order to form up a sense of artistry and catch the souls of many an audience.
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Do what you feel is best for your story. As long as its done well I don't really mind