Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Riptide572 on March 01, 2011, 09:18:28 pm
-
I've been looking into making my own campaign for awhile and the one thing I wanted to develop more was the nature of subspace and nodes. For something that is absolutely essential to the freespace lore, not much is said about it. So I made a little write up on the nature of subspace, and wanted to see what everyone else thought of it. It's kinda put into a question and answer format, and answered like an episode of The Universe in 2367. So, tell me what you think of it. (And before anyone crucifies me on this part, I am not happy with the "Node Travel Time" section because I think the Subspace article on the freespace wiki is off with that number of 1 lightyear per min. because I'm pretty sure Delta Serpentis is about 210 lightyears from us. Possibly 10 lightyears per min.) Anyways, enjoy... or at least I hope you will.
Why do ships drop out of subspace quite a distance from a subspace node to use it?
There are several reasons for this. First off, intra-system jumps take power. Inter-system jumps take a massive amount of power. Ships need to charge up for the use of an inter-system jump drive before they reach a jump node. Secondly, nodes have what is known as a Subspace Ripple around them. This is a natural effect of the node that interferes with matter travelling through subspace near it's focal point. Therefore, a ship passing a node in subspace would "fly over" it's point in subspace as if it were not there to begin with. Similar to how Earth's magnetic field pushes cosmic radiation around it. Some clever navigators have been able to push this threshold to exit subspace close to a node, but it is impossible for a ship to exit subspace directly on a node; if pulled out of subspace too late the ship would be pushed over the node and exit on the opposite side facing the wrong direction. Also, a ship may never enter a inter-system node via intra-system subspace travel, due to the fact that the frequencies of subspace are different between subspace space travel and node travel. In theory, matter can travel from subspace to a node subspace route, but the energies required would reduce that matter to elementary particles during the transition. The last, and most simplisitc reason, for a ship to drop out of subspace a kilometer or more from the jump node is traffic. Nodes are a focal point for all ships entering and exiting a system. The chances of a collision from a ship entering or exiting too close jumps up considerable in higher populated systems.
How are subspace nodes formed?
Inter-system nodes are focal points of subspace, allowing travel to other systems. Nodes are formed every second in nearly every part of space, but they are so infinitely small and short lived that even a particle the size and speed of an electron could not pass through the size of the node, and in time before the node decays; if it were at the correct n-dimensional frequency of course. Nodes tend to form around large stellar masses, where gravity is prevelant and connect to another large mass. It is now commonly believed that dark matter and dark energy also are in direct relation to subspace. The best description is that subspace is like a thunderstorm. Lightning seeks out the path of least resistance and strikes, but imagine this strike stayed active for a long period of time, and you could travel on it at a high speed. Nodes work very similarly to this; however, with no relation to electro-magnetic forces, but instead with the forces of gravity. A weak point in the fabric of subspace between two stars connects a tunnel between the two objects for a time (depending on the stability of a node). Predicting where and when a node is formed is one million times harder than trying to predict where lightning will strike. There have been no nodes found in empty space, so it is believed that only stars have enough stellar mass to attract these nodes. Even in a nebula, the stellar remnant Neutron Star had enough mass to hold a node. The probability of a node forming will depend on the proximity between objects, the amount of mass in each system, the amount of dark matter in each system, and the 'density' of subspace. Other than that, it is quite random, at least to our observations with current technology.
Does Travel through subspace occur naturally?
Theoretically, yes. Inside a blackhole the intense forces at work cause some matter to 'leak' through subspace and exit as energy. This is known as Hawking Radiation. A black hole slowly "evaporates" over a vast amount of time, and it is hypothetical that this energy escapes through subspace.
Could an Inter-Galactic Node exist?
It is a possibility; however, it's nearly impossible that a star from one galaxy could connect to another. The node could only be formed around something with incredible mass, like a cluster of super massive black holes located at the center of the galaxy. Unfortunately, with our current technology, our ships could not survive long enough to reach a node here due to the gravitational stresses and the immense radiation at the center of a galaxy.
How long does a trip through subspace take?
Intra-system jumps are near instantaneous due to the relatively short distances involved. With Inter-system nodes, the number actually fluctuates depending on the speed of the ship, the 'compression' of the node, and the distance between the entrance and exit. A ship still "pushes" off of subspace with a propulsion system the same way it would in real space; however, subspace is much more compressed than realspace so the ride seems faster. Even ripples in subspace can temporarily (or in some cases permanetly) change the flow of the node by up to 5% of it's normal value. Most commonly, people average the time to about a light year a minute, but this is only a layman's guesstimation.
-
I think you got "inter-" and "intra-" mixed up. "Inter-system" jumps are jumps from one system to another, using nodes. "Intra-system" jumps are jumps within a single system.
Other than that, I don't see much in there that contradicts what is known about subspace. The only thing is that jumps within a system are known to take significantly less energy to perform than jumps between systems (hence why fighters can easily perform the former, but only larger ships could perform the latter until better fighter-sized subspace drives were invented).
-
Thanks Dark Hunter, those mix-ups are now fixed. Hope you liked it. Again, not a whole hell of a lot of information we haven't heard before, but I just wanted to elaborate more on subspace. It will make more sence (to me at least) when I make my campaign. :-)
-
Aside from that, you got most of the things covered.
What are you thinking to add in your campaign?
-
It's something I've wanted to do since the end of freespace 2, however many of years ago. I don't really want to give too much away incase I ever actually sit down and write it, but the basic jist is that the shivans collapsed Capella into a black hole in order to create a node further off in the galaxy in which to move their main force in, and the masters controlling the shivans.
-
Edited to minimize Giant Wall o' Text Syndrome. :p
-
It's something I've wanted to do since the end of freespace 2, however many of years ago. I don't really want to give too much away incase I ever actually sit down and write it, but the basic jist is that the shivans collapsed Capella into a black hole in order to create a node further off in the galaxy in which to move their main force in, and the masters controlling the shivans.
Did you read the highlighted interview with Volition about their plans for FS3?
-
Sorry mongoose, I got carried away, but I just had to post all of what I had written or I'd forget it.
-
General Battuta- yes, I did read it, which is actually what got me excited again to write it. I've had the idea in mind for years, and I think hearing how close this writer's vision was to what I had intended got me inspired again.
-
Why do ships drop out of subspace quite a distance from a subspace node to use it?
There are several reasons for this:
First, Inter-system jumps take a massive amount of power compared to intra-system jumps. Ships need to charge up/warm up their warp drives for the use of an inter-system jump drive before they reach a jump node.
Secondly, nodes have what is known as a "Subspace Bubble" (scientifically known as a Tachyonic Deflection Barrier of an Active Stellar Subspace node) around them. This is a natural effect of the node that interferes with matter traveling through subspace near it's focal point. Therefore, a ship passing a node in subspace would "fly over" it's point in subspace as if it were not there to begin with. Similar to how Earth's magnetic field pushes cosmic radiation around it. Some clever navigators have been able to push this threshold to exit subspace close to a node, but it is impossible for a ship to exit subspace directly on a node; if pulled out of subspace too late the ship would be pushed over the node and exit on the opposite side facing the wrong direction.
The third reason is a matter of safety. Nodes are a focal point for all ships entering and exiting a system,therefore, the chances of a collision from a ship entering or exiting too close to another is considerably more dangerous in higher populated systems.
Also, a ship may never enter a inter-system node via intra-system subspace travel, due to the fact that the frequencies of subspace are different between subspace space travel and node travel. In theory, matter can travel from subspace to a node subspace route, but the energies required would reduce that matter to elementary particles during the transition.
The second reason seems a bit off-target, if the subspace bubble did exist around the node, then any matter trying to go through it would be deflected, or if the matter was fast enough or at the right frequency, it would just go straight through.
Think of a soap bubble. You know that if you used a needle or pin, you would easily breach the barrier, and if you just used your thumb you'd probably squish it a bit, but you wouldn't burst it.
To elaborate a bit more, I believe that the subspace bubble works at a Very Low Frequency compared to intra-system subspace, and behaves more like an electronic band-pass filter. All higher freq's (including the freq of "normal space") would pass through it without being affected because it acts like the needle, freq's below the freq of the node would also not be affected because it doesn't "see" the bubble at all.
However, Freq's that are at the freq range of the node would be affected, its speed would slow down upon hitting the barrier and consequentially its frequency would gradually increase to the point that it enters normal space again.
The node machinery in normal space would be the key to the subspace bubble, as it would allow "scrunching" of the bubble to a point where it can act as a spring-loaded gun on normal space matter. The subspace bubble in comparison to the node machinery would be much larger, possibly 5km to 10km. (Where the needed power for priming the bubble is a mystery, it could be sapping a bit of energy from the subspace bubble each time it launches matter, and/or could also be sapping energy from the subspace to normal space transition for each ship)
Different individual objects (multiple ships) could theoretically jump at the same time as long as they fit within the node machinery's ring. They'd show up in subspace at the same frequencies, but at a slightly different phase from each other. This should not be any problem at all... so long as there isn't any bubbles passing through the subspace lane.
-------------
Two part reply, please wait.
-
How are subspace nodes formed?
Inter-system nodes are focal points of subspace travel, allowing matter from one system to travel to another. Nodes themselves are actually formed every second in nearly every part of space, but they are usually so infinitely small and short lived that even a particle the size and speed of an electron could not pass through the size of the node (and in time before the node decays... if it were at the correct n-dimensional frequency of course.)
Nodes tend to form around large stellar masses, where gravity is prevalent and connect to another large mass. It is now commonly believed that dark matter and dark energy also are in direct relation to subspace. The best description is that subspace is like a thunderstorm. Lightning starts out in a body that has the most energy and seeks out the path of least resistance to a body of lower energy, but imagine this strike stayed active for a long period of time. If you where an electron, you could easily travel along the lightning bolt's path at a much high speed and not lose as much energy as you would if you were off the path.
Nodes work very similarly to this; however, with no relation to electro-magnetic forces, but instead with the forces of gravity. A weak point in the fabric of subspace between two stars connects a tunnel between the two objects for a time (depending on the stability of a node). Predicting where and when a node is formed is one million times harder than trying to predict where lightning will strike. There have been no nodes found in empty space, so it is believed that only stars have enough stellar mass to attract these nodes. Even in a nebula, the stellar remnant Neutron Star had enough mass to hold a node. The probability of a node forming will depend on the proximity between objects, the amount of mass in each system, the amount of dark matter in each system, and the 'density' of subspace. Other than that, it is quite random, at least to our observations with current technology.
Hmm, don't really think gravity waves explain the node behavior. I'm thinking more along the lines of the nature of light and Electromagnetic waves.
Does Travel through subspace occur naturally?
Theoretically, yes. Inside a black hole the intense forces at work cause some matter to 'leak' through subspace and exit as energy. This is known as Hawking Radiation. A black hole slowly "evaporates" over a vast amount of time, and it is hypothetical that this energy escapes through subspace.
I actually think that blackholes would also be used for node creation... however you'd have to "tune" the hole so that it will match up with its target node. This might actually be far more difficult to do than to create a new node from a mass super-body.
Could an Intra-Galactic Node exist?
It is a possibility; however, it's nearly impossible that a star from one galaxy could connect to another. The node could only be formed around something with incredible mass, like a cluster of super massive black holes located at the center of the galaxy. Unfortunately, with our current technology, our ships could not survive long enough to reach a node here due to the gravitational stresses and the immense radiation at the center of a galaxy.
Disagree... I think the Shivan Masters used Intra-Galactic Nodes as a stepping stone to Inter-system nodes. They quite possibly have originated in a system that (had) an unusually high number of black holes... which would increase the probability of two natural black holes linking up together to form a node system.
How long does a trip through subspace take?
Intra-system jumps are near instantaneous due to the relatively short (subspace) distances involved. With Inter-system nodes, the number actually fluctuates depending on the speed of the ship, the 'compression' of the node, and the distance between the entrance and exit. A ship still "pushes" off of subspace with a propulsion system the same way it would in real space; however, subspace is much more compressed than realspace so the ride seems faster. Even ripples in subspace can temporarily (or in some cases permanently) change the flow of the node by up to 5% of it's normal value. Most commonly, people average the time to about a light year a minute, but this is only a layman's guesstimation.
Disagree... If the subspace particles are in any way similar to Tachyon's, then they would probably go about the same relative speed. Key term is "relative" however. There is the slight possibility of time not flowing at the same rate in each system... meaning that a system could be far older than other, even though both systems where born at the same inter-system time.
-
Ugh, this thread.
-
Ugh, this thread.
Your inability to handle discussion anymore is noted. Get out. :P
Though I do think that by going into minute detail you are both tying your hands a great deal on what you can accomplish or do storywise. Be general. It's safer and it gives more options.
The second reason seems a bit off-target, if the subspace bubble did exist around the node, then any matter trying to go through it would be deflected, or if the matter was fast enough or at the right frequency, it would just go straight through.
I think you're both off base here. The only evidence we have of a realspace effect comes from the Psamtik's failed jump in Straight, No Chaser, which suggests that any attempt to plot a jump directly to an active node fails; the ship will emerge short of the target exit point by whatever radius the node's particular strength and stability demand. The distance the Psamtik was deposited is vaguely in line with most of the other ships we see bound for nodes in FS2, with the sole exception of the Carthage and Dashor being able to drop nearly on top of Knossos 1 relatively shortly after its activation.
-
Ugh, this thread.
Your inability to handle discussion anymore is noted. Get out. :P
Though I do think that by going into minute detail you are both tying your hands a great deal on what you can accomplish or do storywise. Be general. It's safer and it gives more options.
My ugh is tied to your second sentence, I'm in more discussions than you my black brutha. Technobabbling the crap out of everything is a lot of work for little gain.
Also you forgot the Iceni
-
The second reason seems a bit off-target, if the subspace bubble did exist around the node, then any matter trying to go through it would be deflected, or if the matter was fast enough or at the right frequency, it would just go straight through.
I think you're both off base here. The only evidence we have of a realspace effect comes from the Psamtik's failed jump in Straight, No Chaser, which suggests that any attempt to plot a jump directly to an active node fails; the ship will emerge short of the target exit point by whatever radius the node's particular strength and stability demand. The distance the Psamtik was deposited is vaguely in line with most of the other ships we see bound for nodes in FS2, with the sole exception of the Carthage and Dashor being able to drop nearly on top of Knossos 1 relatively shortly after its activation.
How about this one, certain nodes create an area of interference around it, this interference follows a pattern or signature which once studded/recorded allows tuning of a subspace drive to partial or unrestricted transit through the effected area, depending on your story. In the case of Knossos 2 there was insufficient time to make a complete study of the field before the Psamtik's jump which got spat out of subspace early as a result. Also the interference could be said to only exist as a result of the use of a Knossos device.
-
Also you forgot the Iceni
The Iceni in The Romans Blunder had a full mission's turnaround time to do god knows what and get god knows how far, but yeah, there is the same Knossos 1 issue for Endgame.
On the other hand FS1 suggests that the Knossos 1 distance is the norm in a few missions.
-
The second reason seems a bit off-target, if the subspace bubble did exist around the node, then any matter trying to go through it would be deflected, or if the matter was fast enough or at the right frequency, it would just go straight through.
I think you're both off base here. The only evidence we have of a realspace effect comes from the Psamtik's failed jump in Straight, No Chaser, which suggests that any attempt to plot a jump directly to an active node fails; the ship will emerge short of the target exit point by whatever radius the node's particular strength and stability demand. The distance the Psamtik was deposited is vaguely in line with most of the other ships we see bound for nodes in FS2, with the sole exception of the Carthage and Dashor being able to drop nearly on top of Knossos 1 relatively shortly after its activation.
How about this one, certain nodes create an area of interference around it, this interference follows a pattern or signature which once studded/recorded allows tuning of a subspace drive to partial or unrestricted transit through the effected area, depending on your story. In the case of Knossos 2 there was insufficient time to make a complete study of the field before the Psamtik's jump which got spat out of subspace early as a result. Also the interference could be said to only exist as a result of the use of a Knossos device.
I might have been a bit contradictory in my original reply, but I stand by this reasoning:
I believe that the subspace bubble works at a Very Low Frequency compared to intra-system subspace, and behaves more like an electronic band-pass filter. All higher freq's (including the freq of "normal space") would pass through it without being affected because it acts like the needle, freq's below the freq of the node would also not be affected because it doesn't "see" the bubble at all.
However, Freq's that are at the freq range of the node would be affected, its speed would slow down upon hitting the barrier and consequentially its frequency would gradually increase to the point that it enters normal space again.
This section covers the possibility of the Knossos device acting as an accelerator or gate to aide or supercede the warp-drives of the inter-system travelers:
The node machinery (Knossos device) in normal space would be the key to the subspace bubble, as it would allow "scrunching" of the bubble to a point where it can act as a spring-loaded gun on normal space matter. The subspace bubble in comparison to the node machinery would be much larger, possibly 5km to 10km. (Where the needed power for priming the bubble is a mystery, it could be sapping a bit of energy from the subspace bubble each time it launches matter, and/or could also be sapping energy from the subspace to normal space transition for each ship)
Different individual objects (multiple ships) could theoretically jump at the same time as long as they fit within the node machinery's ring. They'd show up in subspace at the same frequencies, but at a slightly different phase from each other. This should not be any problem at all... so long as there isn't any bubbles passing through the subspace lane.
-
You know, I think you may be right. I should focus on story and less on technological reasonings for it. I think everyone kinda has an idea of how jump nodes operatate and don't need the explaination for how they work. I've been playing a lot of Mass Effect lately and the Codex in that game goes way into detail about how everything works... I don't think that's necissary for Freespace. I'm just a scientifically minded person, so I think I had to put reason to everything for myself. :-)
-
Handwavium is perfectly acceptable.
A friend of mine once gave me his opinion on sci-fi. He said, "I like sci-fi, when it's about what the people are doing, not about how awesome the tech is or how it works, because HOW it works is irrelevant. It's breaks **** up into a meaninglessness and disrupts the immersion. The fictional characters in their fictional universe already know how to use whatever it is (unless they're showing off how brilliant they are in creating something that doesn't exist, ala Shamus Harper) so it would be rather like a modern day sitcom suddenly espousing the details of how phones and laptops and tablets and cars work. In short, really boring and really stupid."
-
Feel free to use whatever subspace properties are convenient for your modding project, but I'd advise against laying absolutely everything out to start, lest you write yourself into a corner with previously-established science (though there seems to be little danger of that right now). Your write-up was well thought-out, and does add some details to fairly well-worn points.
My sole grievance is this:
(scientifically known as a Tachyonic Deflection Barrier of an Active Stellar Subpace node)
Try to avoid extreme technicality (like Zacam added. Sneaky bastard)- mis-use of terminology can leave a bad taste in people's mouths, and in my case, seeing "tachyonic" caused me to :mad: a little. It's entirely possible that your use is indeed correct, but the luckless tachyon has been invoked a little too frequently in other Sci-Fi properties.
That said, don't get discouraged at my SNAFU over one word. You've clearly got a clear theory how you want FreeSpace's greatest plot device to work in your mod, and your write-up, as is, would make a bad-ass Techroom entry.
-
There are times where technology porn is acceptable. Sometimes you must impress upon the reader that things are radically different from what they understand for a reason; sometimes it can be used for intimidation (have you perhaps ever seen the full chemical name of a nerve toxin?) or to provide a certain detachment (I recall an extremely beautiful passage from a work I read once that was describing in minute detail how and why naplam weapons work, and then you wake up and realize you just read about someone burning to death); sometimes, as Zacam observed, to demonstrate a character's own brilliance or improvisational skills; and very rarely (hopefully) because it matters to the plot that things work in a specific fashion.
-
There are times where technology porn is acceptable. Sometimes you must impress upon the reader that things are radically different from what they understand for a reason; sometimes it can be used for intimidation (have you perhaps ever seen the full chemical name of a nerve toxin?) or to provide a certain detachment (I recall an extremely beautiful passage from a work I read once that was describing in minute detail how and why naplam weapons work, and then you wake up and realize you just read about someone burning to death); sometimes, as Zacam observed, to demonstrate a character's own brilliance or improvisational skills; and very rarely (hopefully) because it matters to the plot that things work in a specific fashion.
+1
-
@NGTM-1R, agreed. Just saying that the tech porn's gotta be done right.
-
As excellent as all of that advice is, a part of me still can't help but love Voyager's inane technobabble spew. :D
-
Star trek in general is the exception that proves the rule in mass audience, especially TNG onwards, thought the later into the franchises development the more frequently technobable is used. I suppose someone has to be different. Generally I would stick with NGTM-1R's advice though I often fall into the Star Trek trap
-
As excellent as all of that advice is, a part of me still can't help but love Voyager's inane technobabble spew. :D
The thing is, Star Trek isn't using technobabble to explain anything. It's just using technobabble to babble. :P
-
Well yeah, obviously. That's the fun of it. :p
-
You know, I think you may be right. I should focus on story and less on technological reasonings for it. I think everyone kinda has an idea of how jump nodes operatate and don't need the explaination for how they work. I've been playing a lot of Mass Effect lately and the Codex in that game goes way into detail about how everything works... I don't think that's necissary for Freespace. I'm just a scientifically minded person, so I think I had to put reason to everything for myself. :-)
I liked your writeup.
Some other posters have said that you are somehow 'writing yourself into a corner', but I don't see how that is the case; what you've done is provide a feasible explanation for events we've already seen in Freespace, and laid the groundwork for further story developments. You're fleshing out your version of the Freespace universe; making it more cohesive, believable, and internally consistent.
I, too, enjoyed the depth and complexity displayed in Mass Effect's codex. This is my kind of sci-fi.
-
Yeah, but the groundwork used tachyons. Mass Effect's codex was mostly believable physics, with a smattering of phlebotinum and a few straight-up goofs or intentional violations like the quantum entanglement communication in ME2.
-
New Sci-Fi entertainment has it rough nowadays... especially since there's more and more people out there that actually KNOW a thing or two about physics and chemistry, and a little help from the monolithic internet.
Best thing to shoot for is to have enough physics/chemistry phenomenon that correlates with the real deal. Just how far you can get away from reality really depends on the setting of the game, TV, movie, etc.
'Course the "Just plain wrong" phenomenon is an element for turning off a potential fanbase. I can't tell you how irked I get on how many FPS games use laser-beams ballistics for a 9mm bullet :nono:.
That being said, I think for the most part the subspace explanations proposed here are within acceptance... I haven't seen any feuding over specifics... yet.
-
(scientifically known as a Tachyonic Deflection Barrier of an Active Stellar Subpace node)
Tachyonic Deflection Barrier of an ASS? Yeah, well... your mum! :p
(Also, I think you mixed up "intergalactic" and "intra-galactic," as interstellar nodes would all be "intra-galactic.")
-
(scientifically known as a Tachyonic Deflection Barrier of an Active Stellar Subpace node)
Tachyonic Deflection Barrier of an ASS? Yeah, well... your mum! :p
(Also, I think you mixed up "intergalactic" and "intra-galactic," as interstellar nodes would all be "intra-galactic.")
I fixed it. I've been getting flak for that.
-
(scientifically known as a Tachyonic Deflection Barrier of an Active Stellar Subpace node)
Tachyonic Deflection Barrier of an ASS? Yeah, well... your mum! :p
(Also, I think you mixed up "intergalactic" and "intra-galactic," as interstellar nodes would all be "intra-galactic.")
I fixed it. I've been getting flak for that.
Hey, it's the only gripe I've got with your write-up, so I think it's otherwise really good.