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Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: tnathan475 on March 02, 2011, 05:12:05 pm

Title: Large ship combat
Post by: tnathan475 on March 02, 2011, 05:12:05 pm
Having issues creating capital ship battles, I'm trying to make it so larger vessels maneuver very slowly and at one point or another during combat, no matter what the rotation times are set to in the ships.tbl, it seems to become very twitchy and move rotate back and forth very quickly much faster than would seem possible because of what is set in the ships.tbl. Any advice  please?
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: General Battuta on March 02, 2011, 05:15:54 pm
Don't use the 'ai-chase' order. Set waypoint paths for the capships to follow.
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: Sololop on March 02, 2011, 05:25:42 pm
Like he said, waypoints. Though as with all capship battles, watch out for BoE (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Battle_of_Endor_Syndrome) Syndrome.
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: sigtau on March 02, 2011, 08:54:23 pm
I always wondered, when setting waypoints for capital ship battles, do you also have to give attack orders to the ships as well, or will they automatically attack as necessary?
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: Droid803 on March 02, 2011, 09:47:37 pm
They will automatically fire their turrets, but "attack as necessary"? I donno. The AI does its own thing.
Even with attack orders sometimes they don't "attack as necessary". :/
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: ssmit132 on March 02, 2011, 10:02:58 pm
You can use fire-beam if you want to force beam shots. There's no way (at the moment) to force shots from other turrets, however. You probably wouldn't need to worry about that, however; if the ships are in range, their turrets should fire (though there is the turret limit when you're not using the Fury AI).
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: Black Wolf on March 02, 2011, 10:09:51 pm
As has been mentioned, set waypoints for hip combat and use ship-rot-maneuver for forced slow rotations.
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: tnathan475 on April 05, 2011, 06:22:34 pm
thanks for the input everyone, but I'm convinced I am doing something wrong. I've set up way points for the ships to follow, and they do seem to sort of follow them but they only seem to really use them as guidelines and still pretty much do their own thing and go where-ever depending on where enemies are.
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: General Battuta on April 05, 2011, 06:23:01 pm
Do your waypoint path orders have the highest priority of all the orders they have?
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: tnathan475 on April 05, 2011, 06:25:13 pm
Yes the priority is set high and are the only orders they have.
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: General Battuta on April 05, 2011, 06:26:07 pm
How close together are the waypoints? Try to space them out a bit.

These are capships following them, yes?
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: tnathan475 on April 05, 2011, 06:27:31 pm
Yes these are capitals that are to follow these waypoints, about how far apart should waypoints be?
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: General Battuta on April 05, 2011, 06:29:49 pm
Depending on the size of the ship, you probably want to give them like 500 meters or something and try not to make the turns too sharp? 500 is a pretty conservative value, closer might be okay.
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: tnathan475 on April 05, 2011, 06:37:54 pm
Strange, most of my waypoints have at least double that distance and I made it a point to have gentle turns.  Some ships will come to a waypoint and spin on their X or Y axis' for a couple minutes and then continue on waypoints, other ships will decide to roll on their Z axis slightly and not straighten. The only thing that seems to act normal is a waypoint thats in a straight line. How the ships are reacting seems to been related to the enemy capital ships they are fighting (or autofighting because they do not have orders to engage and are just auto-engaging enemy ships at will) I should point out that I am NOT using modded AI tables.
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: Trivial Psychic on April 06, 2011, 09:10:50 pm
Sounds like we may need a new form of waypoint following commands, which would allow the FREDder to dictate a minimum distance that a ship must close to a waypoint before that waypoint is considered achieved and will allow the ship to proceed to the next one.  Something like waypoints-proximity and waypoints-once-proximity.  First field would be obviously the ship, the second would of course be the waypoint path, while the third would be the minimum distance.
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: Dragon on April 07, 2011, 05:49:56 pm
What we need is an imprevement to AI to make capship attack orders work properly.
I'd like to see that working like it does in RTSes, you order a warship to attack and it positions itself in the optimal firing position on it's own.
Something like an "AI-Capship-Chase" order that would behave differently than "AI-Chase".
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: Droid803 on April 07, 2011, 07:01:17 pm
or just implement that into ai-chase...seeing as ai-chase with capships is hardly consistent anyway and that probably won't break backwards compatibility...too much :P

But oh how I wish capships knew how to close into range, stop, and rotate/bank to provide maximum turret coverage...
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: General Battuta on April 07, 2011, 07:08:02 pm
Honestly I'm not sure that would help at all. They would still ram everything and look dumb. Scripted battles are good battles.
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: Trivial Psychic on April 07, 2011, 08:04:49 pm
or just implement that into ai-chase...seeing as ai-chase with capships is hardly consistent anyway and that probably won't break backwards compatibility...too much :P

But oh how I wish capships knew how to close into range, stop, and rotate/bank to provide maximum turret coverage...
Unlikely, as it would break retail compatibility.  It's more likely to be something to incorporate into ai_profiles.  What could really be useful is a way for the AI to calculate where the most dangerous turrets on an enemy ship are and attempt to maneuver to a point outside of those turret's firing arc, then if possible to try to find a complete blind spot.  It should also take into account any damaged or disabled turrets into its maneuver algorithm, as well as the ability to know where its own most powerful weapons are and point them towards the target.  Also, the attack distance should also take into account the physical size of both ships so we don't get any base-ball bat incidents.  Of course, we're not likely to see any of this any time soon.
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: Reprobator on April 08, 2011, 02:29:08 am
At a first stage it would be a good thing that cap ship respect what was written in their own table, i mean i can set any value i want in their table :
$Rotation Time:  300.0, 260, 50.0
It'll still move like a fighter .

I remember having done some test in starshatter, send a kamikaze objective to capship onto another capship : that was quite funny to see : the capship accelerate and go straight to its target, 500 m before the impact , the AI seems to change it's mind and prefer to survive: the capship manoeuvre into a uturn and use it's engine at full power, but the inertia made it useless... 
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: Fury on April 08, 2011, 03:35:16 am
You need to significantly increase Damp and Rotdamp values to make capship movements smoother and slower.
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: Retsof on April 08, 2011, 02:11:43 pm
or just implement that into ai-chase...seeing as ai-chase with capships is hardly consistent anyway and that probably won't break backwards compatibility...too much :P

But oh how I wish capships knew how to close into range, stop, and rotate/bank to provide maximum turret coverage...
Unlikely, as it would break retail compatibility.  It's more likely to be something to incorporate into ai_profiles.  What could really be useful is a way for the AI to calculate where the most dangerous turrets on an enemy ship are and attempt to maneuver to a point outside of those turret's firing arc, then if possible to try to find a complete blind spot.  It should also take into account any damaged or disabled turrets into its maneuver algorithm, as well as the ability to know where its own most powerful weapons are and point them towards the target.  Also, the attack distance should also take into account the physical size of both ships so we don't get any base-ball bat incidents.  Of course, we're not likely to see any of this any time soon.
I remember seeing a Moloch park itself in an Arcdia's blind spot (or at least somewhere underneath it, it was a while ago).  In fact, i thought it was the process of blind spot seeking that caused the "death spiral" we all know and love.
Title: Re: Large ship combat
Post by: The E on April 08, 2011, 02:46:11 pm
Getting the AI to roll ship would be good.