Not that Narayana isn't really much bigger than Karuna.
It's enormous cannons give it such appearance, but actual ship is about 2/3 lenght of the entire frame.
Huh. Seems like in BP Terran Capital ships in general are moving towards that weird Japanese fixation with enormous Spinal Mounted guns.
Huh. Seems like in BP Terran Capital ships in general are moving towards that weird Japanese fixation with enormous Spinal Mounted guns.
Good Point. Though when I first saw it I thought those two auxiliary bays on either side of the main one were stupidly huge railguns.Funny thing you noticed that, since they were supposed to be giant cannons on the original design, but they got changed into fighterbays in the BP version.
IIRC, Earth Defense is using another variant, upside-down and with cannons operational.Big Guns = Awesome.
Upside Down = :wtf:
Just about the Uriel's size, yes it's big and blocky but it's absolutely not defenseless. That turret is the most infuriatingly annoying thing to get shot with during a dogfight.
Spinal cannons on destroyers are really annoying because it is much harder to get destroyers to simultaneously do all three of the following when compared to corvettes:
1) point at targets in a smooth, not-stupid-looking fashion
2) follow waypoint paths
3) exhibit tactics that are not 'jump in and fly directly at the target'
Spinal cannons on destroyers are really annoying because it is much harder to get destroyers to simultaneously do all three of the following when compared to corvettes:
1) point at targets in a smooth, not-stupid-looking fashion
2) follow waypoint paths
3) exhibit tactics that are not 'jump in and fly directly at the target'
I say it's much better than mounting everything on the sides and going back to the Age of Sail tactic of doing the T
The difference in size between UEF frigates and GTVA destroyers makes a lot of sense to me. The GTVA needs a vessel which can operate as a de-facto headquarters. When sent into a far-away system it doubles as a base of operations, when there's no Arcadia station nearby. It probably houses a lot of crew and various stations and may have even served as a semi-logistical vessel for it's escorts during the second Shivan war, until later the dedicated logistical vessels of the 2380's were put into production. The UEF however only had to deal with handling problems within one solar system, where a few jumps brings you right back home (an emergency jump sent the Indus from Neptune all the way to Sol, the sun). Those frigates thus needed no great amount of crew or stations to operate and in turn were designed to be more maneuverable (and more importantly, to be less expansive on resources!). So in that context, it makes sense as well that the Solaris-class destroyer was a blasphemy. There was absolutely no need for such a large vessel in the eyes of the people and military experts, unless like the Ubuntu council you have the knowledge that such ships would in the long run become necessary for the problems which were to come. You don't give the lone sheriff of a calm backwater town a battle-tank to do his patrols with, unless you have intel that the town is in imminent, hidden danger.
The new texture job isn't far off, the new model I'll be doing will be.
Sure but remember, I'll be making a completely new model, sort of a HTL really.The new texture job isn't far off, the new model I'll be doing will be.
The Karuna has actually had some geometry changes already.
They look dated? :nervous:Absolutely. Their texturing is horrendous and details are non-existent or somewhat poorly done, the Chimera only has little boxes for detail on it, most of the polygons on the Titan are used on the impractically-built fighterbay.
They look dated? :nervous:
Has the Hades been sexed up in that pic? It looks good.
The Chimera and Bell are a little on the low res side of things, but they look great as long as they're dressed up in pretty light. The Titan looks fine. My only beef with it is the fighterbay can't fit an Ursa! :P Not like trying to squeeze in an Elysium sized bomber is easy, but all the same...
The Hades looks cool.It also looks a little lonely being displayed by the same person again.
Well, I think it's been stated that the Deimos is not nearly as expensive as a Karuna, and they really do have similar tactical capabilities. The Aeolus is supposed to be pretty cheap as well, not sure about the Hyperion.Deimos doesn't have a fighterbay. :nervous:
I remember it being stated that the Sanctus was all about hauling cargo. Basically a huge transport with military grade defenses.Well, I think it's been stated that the Deimos is not nearly as expensive as a Karuna, and they really do have similar tactical capabilities. The Aeolus is supposed to be pretty cheap as well, not sure about the Hyperion.Deimos doesn't have a fighterbay. :nervous:
You'll rarely find them in big fleet actions. Mostly they'll be puttering about on their own.
One thing I noticed in WiH is that two Karunas seem to run through whole battle groups strangely easily; far more easily than I would expect with the comparatively small firepower they have, then suddenly one corvette will jump in and take down a Karuna in seconds.
I've even had several times where the Valarie takes out the Indus with pulse cannons. Two Deimos are theoretically at least equal to a Diomedes, so it's kind of a shock that the entire Carthage battlegroup goes down so easily, for instance. I suppose it has more to do with the Uriel than anything else.
The use of armor types is pretty consistent on the Karunas though. And no, they don't have small firepower - those torpedoes put out a surprising amount of DPS with their shockwaves (which go right through armor classes.)
those torpedoes put out a surprising amount of DPS with their shockwaves (which go right through armor classes.)Which really is an oversight from development phase of WiH. I never realized until it was too late that shockwaves have different damage type. Can only wonder how things would have turned out if shockwaves had damage types set.
those torpedoes put out a surprising amount of DPS with their shockwaves (which go right through armor classes.)Which really is an oversight from development phase of WiH. I never realized until it was too late that shockwaves have different damage type. Can only wonder how things would have turned out if shockwaves had damage types set.
I actually dunno what Battuta really meant there. Solaris has no anti-subsystem railguns, or at least didn't have in R1. The gattler turrets are inaccurate and do only quarter subsystem damage. These turrets are saturation weapons, not anti-subsystem weapons.
Wow, you must have a good computer to fit all that on screen, even if it's in FRED.
Wait, why did you do that instead of just opening up bp2 massive battle and taking a screenshot of that?
I mean if you want to know how the battle would go down if the two sides just rolled out and fought, you can run that mission (at 4 FPS). The UEF usually but not always wins, but with such losses it would never be able to repel the inevitable follow-up.
Neither side wants that battle to happen.
That mission doesn't include the Sanctii nor the equivalent GTVA cruisers and assets, nor any fighters or bombers.
The UEF has more forces in-system, but the TEV's have more total forces. The GTVA wants the war to become a slow, fatiguing, morale-destroying grind for the UEF, while the GTVA can rotate warships and fighter squadrons in and out as necessary to maintain fresh forces and increase their number of trained, veteran pilots in case of a third Shivan incursion. The longer the war goes on, the better the GTVA will become at fighting it and since it is in UEF territory, they'll lose more the longer it goes on.
Yeah, loads of battlegroups on the other side of the node, and a few more ships in Sol. The UEF has a lot more territory to cover too.Ahha, you make a good point. Defense is easy with one choke point.
I cant help but feel that for all their tenacity, the minds behind the Wargods don't really have any sort of actual plan, beyond hoping that the folks back home in the Tev systems get sick of the war. That seems like a flimsy thing to base your entire strategy off of.
It's won a few wars, and the longer the war goes on, the better the chances.
In the short term their goal was to McClellan Steele.
Kyle Netreba is the current Commander In Chief of 2nd Fleet Mars. Among the triumvirate that commands the UEF Navy, he is the least "military" officer. Originally trained as an engineering specialist (software subspecialty), he switched to the command track after he demonstrated good leadership skills during an incident in which he had to take command of a frigate after its command staff died during combat. His market-based algorithms for logistical handling earned him the praise of the Council of Elders, a lasting relationship with scientist-elder Svetlana Henriksson, and eventually a place in the Admiralty.
His leadership style is unorthodox. He has structured his command less like a traditional fleet, and more like a design bureau, hand-selecting 2 Fleet's ship captains for their ability to think and act independently. Yet the outbreak of the war saw an abrupt shift in his disciplinary approach, including crackdowns on traditionally lax Martian standards. Some suspect Netreba sought advice from Admiral Calder on wartime conduct.
During the war against the GTVA, Netreba found himself in a difficult position. Calder and Byrne used his fleet as a reserve asset pool for their own very different priorities, and Netreba feels increasingly dissatisfied with this position. His cooperation has not always been rewarded, either in terms of assets for his own OrBat or rest and repair time for his crews and ships. Between having to guard assets that are nominally in 1st Fleet's remit, and supporting offensive actions by 3rd Fleet, his own command and the abilities of the people within it are being wasted, a state of affairs that he feels threatens 2 Fleet's effectiveness as a unit.
While the Admiral is unsatisfied with Admiral Byrne's strategic directives, and much more comfortable with Admiral Calders' aggressive strategies, his ability to work with Admiral Calder is limited. Given their vast differences in command styles, this comes as no surprise. Where 2 Fleet relies on each element acting independently in support of a broad strategy, the Jovian Rim Fleet relies on detailed pre-battle planning and pre-rehearsed maneuvers that can be executed with a minimum of forethought. Whether or not the two commands can overcome these structural differences and produce results when acting in concert will probably be one of the deciding factors in determining the war's outcome.
(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6404/everylastone.png)
Every last confirmed ship in Sol, just prior to the Artemis attack
I understand that, but GTVA ships must be very powerful indeed for that to be a possibility. Even with crazy losses to the Jovian Fleet, the Sol forces still outnumber the TEVs severely.
EDIT:
The Arcane is with the 13th because it was the only confirmed ship still remaining from the 16th.
Also, the Sanctus has got to be the most produced ship ever.
[of Netreba]
They GTVA has installed a Backdoor to the Sol system, Kicked it in, and theres no way for Sol to get rid of it, short of collapsing it again. They cant invade, they cant hold it, as the Tevs wouldn't give them time to entrench (and they can just fry close blockades with Area-Denial Meson weapons, as was stated above,)
Indeed. Though the GTVA has to balance their desire to take Sol's infrastructure with their strategic need to degrade that infrastructure - a balance that tipped sharply towards 'wreck' when Steele arrived with his plan to end the war rapidly.That scenario reminds me slightly of the Battle of Tannenberg (WW1). Proves your point well I guess.
It's not as if the UEF has only persisted this long at the GTVA's sufferance. The GTVA could have piled ten or twenty destroyers into the system at the start of the war, and the result would've been a mutual bloodbath, with the UEF having the subspace tracking advantage required to drop their bomber wings right down destroyers' throats, the GTVA shock-jumping everything it could find, and the two faction's air wings shredding each other. It would have been over soon, and the GTVA probably would have been victorious, but the cost would have been staggering, including, most likely, the best of the GTVA's equipment and personnel.
Both sides misunderstood the strategic intent and tactical capabilities of the other - something that comes up again and again in the history of war. (In fact, one of the marked statistical trends in the history of warfare is the overconfidence of aggressors, something I had the distinct pleasure to write a lengthy paper on at one point.)
Yet, Calder lost Jupiter, Byrne almost loses Earth, and Mars remains in Netreba's hands. Perhaps it is because Mars is a relatively low strategic value target?
Netreba doesn't have a tech room entry, which is probably why.I was meant to fix this. :S
I realized that I might be missing the entire 16th battlgroup - so there could be up to 7 more corvettes, and 4 or 5 more cruisers on the Tev side.
Netreba doesn't have a tech room entry, which is probably why.I was meant to fix this. :S
Also, for those interested, the tech room entries on the other UEF Admirals have a little bit on the military goings on prior to the war. One of them was even decorated for his conduct in such actions.
Whilst Fleet Admiral is a Naval Rank, to my understanding I think it's safe to assume those three are regular 4 stars. I'm not totally in the know WRT to this, so my word isn't gospel.
My understanding of what Fleet Admirals actually do makes me think that it's highly unlikely that those three hold that rank, especially since I don't believe more than one person can hold that rank.
EDIT: Spelling.
Once you manage to control the node and you have driven back the GTVA from Sol, put 4 Naras at max range of the node. Negates the advantage of meson bombs.
The GTVA could have piled ten or twenty destroyers into the system at the start of the war, and the result would've been a mutual bloodbath, with the UEF having the subspace tracking advantage required to drop their bomber wings right down destroyers' throats, the GTVA shock-jumping everything it could find, and the two faction's air wings shredding each other. It would have been over soon, and the GTVA probably would have been victorious, but the cost would have been staggering, including, most likely, the best of the GTVA's equipment and personnel.Am I the only one hoping this happens later in the war? That would be a legendary set of missions. :cool:
Then you get leaky on the fighter strikes, and might as well not be accomplishing anything. In a very real sense as long as the node remains open the UEF has no actual path to victory.
In fact I think that's their real problem. The various responses of the UEF leaders to the issue at hand don't hold out any real hope of winning. Calder's offensive operations are probably the best answer, in that he is at least attempting to impose his will on the enemy and retain the initiative, but in the end all the answers offered so far are hollow. They offer tactical solutions but no answer to the strategic problem.
Then you get leaky on the fighter strikes, and might as well not be accomplishing anything. In a very real sense as long as the node remains open the UEF has no actual path to victory.First, fighters can cover the node. They have much better subspace mobility than capships, so they can instaflee if a meson bomb arrives. Unless I'm mistaken, the Meson bomb still needs a few seconds to detonate, and anyway using a meson bomb to blow a few fighter wings that can be replaced by fresh reinforcements a few seconds later is a total waste.
In fact I think that's their real problem. The various responses of the UEF leaders to the issue at hand don't hold out any real hope of winning. Calder's offensive operations are probably the best answer, in that he is at least attempting to impose his will on the enemy and retain the initiative, but in the end all the answers offered so far are hollow. They offer tactical solutions but no answer to the strategic problem.
Second, if the GTVA can't send anything else than fighter and bomber wings through the node, then the fighters are stranded and without logistical support in an hostile system. Then their threat becomes nothing more than that of Gefs with better tech. The UEF can easily live with that.
Once you manage to control the node and you have driven back the GTVA from Sol, put 4 Naras at max range of the node. Negates the advantage of meson bombs.You're assuming the UEF can drive the GTVA from Sol, because at the conclusion of WiH, one fleet is almost totally decimated, another is getting to that point, and the last fleet is just sitting around Sol, the GTVA forces are mostly still intact while the UEF was hit hard.
First, fighters can cover the node. They have much better subspace mobility than capships, so they can instaflee if a meson bomb arrives. Unless I'm mistaken, the Meson bomb still needs a few seconds to detonate, and anyway using a meson bomb to blow a few fighter wings that can be replaced by fresh reinforcements a few seconds later is a total waste.
Second, if the GTVA can't send anything else than fighter and bomber wings through the node, then the fighters are stranded and without logistical support in an hostile system. Then their threat becomes nothing more than that of Gefs with better tech. The UEF can easily live with that.
In a few seconds the GTVA can deploy a sixty-fighter strike to engage the Naras and damage them enough to require yardwork to repair.I don't think a node can sustain that many ships at a time. Remember all that has been said about the Delta-Serpentis node as a bottleneck for the GTVA forces in Sol, which is the very reason they have to use logistic ships in the first place. Ships would have to come in waves, that can be dispatched by the superior UEF fighter force more than easily. And Naras can take care of themselves against fighters and bombers more than well enough. Especially given the global inefficiency of tevs bombers. And especially since in that situation they would be covered by a substantial number of Sanctus and Karunas + fighter complements. You'd need beam barrage to break such a formation, and any beam-carrying ship would be nullified before going anywhere in rage, especially given the bottleneck property.
The Shivans can afford to waste hordes of ships on a costly Node Blockade. The GTVA, and certainly the UEF, cannot.
The bottlenecking at the nodes is a very interesting key strategy narrative resource available.
Those are situations where the NTF was running the blockades. Keep in mind that they lost their entire fleet in the process. The GTVA can't afford that amount of losses, for multiple reasons that have also been made pretty clear in the fluff and that are also the reason the UEF is still standing after 18 months.The Shivans can afford to waste hordes of ships on a costly Node Blockade. The GTVA, and certainly the UEF, cannot.
errrr, i have to disagree with you there in regards to the GTVA, Kings Gambit and End Game are strait up blockade missions and in The Romans Blunder there should have been a blockade in place
Yes. There are GTVA in system, that have to rely to logistic ships and captured stations to sustain themselves. They have done everything they could to minimize the bottleneck issue of the node, and this is made pretty clear in the fluff.Except with a heavily battered military force, with the largest chunk of it on a defensive strategy, how would the UEF push the GTVA out anyway? :p
Besides, remember that GTVA is in system because they took control of the node even before the UEF started to react, and that they have fortified it ever since. We're talking about a situation here where the GTVA would have been pushed back to DS and the UEF would be holding the Sol end of the node, and would be the one fortifying it.
I don't think a node can sustain that many ships at a time.
About the probability for the UEF to hold such an hypothetical blockade :
If we consider you can send as many ships as you want through the node, I don't know how well such a blockade would resist to a few raynors/titans with fighter complements sent at the same time, but we have Durgas and Vajradhara to sweep clean out of those, so I don't think the GTVA would take such a risk. The only failure possible in that kind of blockade would be if the desties had sprint drives to jump out as soon as exiting the node, before Naras and bombers finish the warship off.
Such is a valid concern, but that escaping ship wouldn't threaten the blockade itself after clearing the node, as long as there is an AWACS jamming beams up, so the destie would, again, be left in Sol without attending ships (since sprint jump drives are still too few and far between to equip a whole battlegroup with em) nor logistical support. We are back to the guerilla warfare I mentioned, just on a much bigger scale. Still better than an open-scale war for the UEF - they have the firepower to deal with a single, isolated and logistic-less destroyer with minimal losses.
First, before I explain, while nodes are infinately long, they are also narrow. Ships have always shown in the freespace games to come out one at a time.
Baseless assertion.Makes sense, though. No two things are the same in the universe, and since nodes are a natural occurance, neither are they.
Baseless assertion.Makes sense, though. No two things are the same in the universe, and since nodes are a natural occurance, neither are they.
Of course, Sol Gate and Knossos nodes may be an exception.
First, before I explain, while nodes are infinately long, they are also narrow. Ships have always shown in the freespace games to come out one at a time.
This is untrue. We have seen multiple cruiser-class ships emerge from a node at the same time in FS1, and a Levi and an Argos plus significant fighter escorts arrived at once during The King's Gambit.
Not to mention, fighters have repeatedly been shown to be able to exit nodes in En Masse. Can't fit more than one Destroyer through at a time? Try 50 Nyx's with a supporting wave of bombers right behind them. All it takes is good strategy for the Tevs to bust any sort of blockade the UEF sets up.
Meh. UEF should replace the mass and gauss cannons on Naras with sufficiently high caliber gattler rounds. Make more room for gattler ammo by using missile magazines too. Not much could survive that onslaught very long. Unless all ships are equipped with rapid jump drives or two jump drives, they get decimated before they can jump again. :pMaybe this could happen late in the war with the few remaining Naras
Well, the problem is, Serkr is the archetypical example of a glass cannon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GlassCannon). They have a massive alpha strike firepower, but they are quite fragile if said alpha strike doesn't annihilate their opposition. The UEF doesn't have any class in service that can operate on the same principle, since the UEF's main weaponry (Varunastra cannons and Apocalypse torpedoes) don't produce the same kind of damage throughput.But the discussion as it is bases it on the concept that some ships are refitted to operate in that principle.
For the most part, UEF weapons seem geared towards saturation attacks, rather than pinpoint damage, while GTVA beam weapons are the exact opposite.
Basically the Nara groups are like Serkr. Jump in at optimal positioning, blast them with overwhelming firepower, get out before the enemy can retaliate.
But with the exception of the counter attack on the Atreus, that the sprint drive nullified, the UEF wasn't in any position to use the Naras that effectively.
First, before I explain, while nodes are infinately long, they are also narrow. Ships have always shown in the freespace games to come out one at a time.
This is untrue. We have seen multiple cruiser-class ships emerge from a node at the same time in FS1, and a Levi and an Argos plus significant fighter escorts arrived at once during The King's Gambit.
Naras have their own fighters though.We just had this discussion earlier, on one of the topics in this forum. Tev fighters are generally self sufficient,, meaning they can last longer by themselves (without a base) for an extended period of time.
Also, there would be something guarding them.
And a large fighter wing wouldn't really do much once in system, since they need a base.
They could also develop some kind of an artillery platform, which would be cheaper to produce and maintain than Nara, but would still have a large part of firepower (sort of UEF Mijolnir).
Economic Crisis or not, the GTVA(I refuse to call them TEVs) could and probably should have deployed undeniable force to Earth and forced the issue with pinpoint bombardment from orbit.
I would be willing to bet that's more because the entry to the node is physically too small for the ships to side-by-side transition. However, none of this is the point.
Economic Crisis or not, the GTVA(I refuse to call them TEVs) could and probably should have deployed undeniable force to Earth and forced the issue with pinpoint bombardment from orbit. That said, on topic, the ships seem to be getting larger in profile.
To be more specific, the plan was to threaten pinpoint orbital bombardment.Then how in world is the current state of affairs working for the GTVA? Now they can occupy Sol?
At any rate, Orbit-to-Surface bombardment is the very, very last thing the GTVA would want to do. To reiterate, the GTVA does not have the manpower to effectively occupy Sol. They want the UEF to submit to GTVA authority willingly. Threatening death from above is definitely not the right way to do it.
(In real life terms, this would be like the US trying a hostile takeover of the European Union. It just wouldn't work.)
To be more specific, the plan was to threaten pinpoint orbital bombardment.Then how in world is the current state of affairs working for the GTVA? Now they can occupy Sol?
At any rate, Orbit-to-Surface bombardment is the very, very last thing the GTVA would want to do. To reiterate, the GTVA does not have the manpower to effectively occupy Sol. They want the UEF to submit to GTVA authority willingly. Threatening death from above is definitely not the right way to do it.
(In real life terms, this would be like the US trying a hostile takeover of the European Union. It just wouldn't work.)
This thread is confusing me...
But that would only contain the "threat" of ubuntu. They still can't get access to most of the infrastructure of Sol without the cooperation of the locals.In all likelihood, the facilities either have integrated living quarters and/or have an accompanying installation dedicated for the workers, considering ferrying the workers from Earth to the facilities would be inefficient and a decently long trip too.
Granted, much of the ship manufacturing (and probably mining) facilities are in orbit, but it would be one hell of a job to ferry enough workers from GTVA terretory into Sol to run those orbitals, not to mention that they'd need some place to live and supplys. Ferrying all those people between Delta Serpentis and Sol twice a day is just ludicrous.
History says that gaining control of the population after a total war scenario is not hard. (Post WWII German, Japan, and Italy demonstrate this)
But with all the dead civilians, how are the GTVA supposed to convince the Sol populace that they are better.
Just throwing questions out there, and this is getting way off-topic.
Oops! :nervous:
Seriously though - the GTVA, were they to crush the UEF military completely with 5 battle groups, wouldn't have to lie much to make the point that the Shivans would have utterly destroyed Sol, where the GTVA would have persevered.Ubuntu citizens are not too likely to turn on the government that has led them into what appears to be the greatest era of prosperity in human history. They're likely to believe more in the great towering skyscrapers on the Moon and the inhabitation of Mars than some obscure, distant video clips of aliens blowing stuff up. Furthermore, the stuff they have seen blown up were blown up by the GTVA, a clear aggressor (in their eyes) and not some random alien race who they've heard nothing of for 50 years.
Imagine Earth was under threat of alien invasion, and that you live in a small country focusing on social programs. Now imagine a large country invades because they want your nation to help with Earth defense rather than internal social problems. Imagine they have legitimate pictures of aliens blowing up whole planets easily, and they themselves had experienced the loss of an entire star to these invaders (with footage).
With even a small propaganda machine, its easy to see how easily the Tevs could make a case for themselves to the people in the Sol system. "Ubuntu could not protect you" and the like.
Ubuntu citizens are not too likely to turn on the government that has led them into what appears to be the greatest era of prosperity in human history. They're likely to believe more in the great towering skyscrapers on the Moon and the inhabitation of Mars than some obscure, distant video clips of aliens blowing stuff up. Furthermore, the stuff they have seen blown up were blown up by the GTVA, a clear aggressor (in their eyes) and not some random alien race who they've heard nothing of for 50 years.
From my point of view, the problem with siding with the GTVA is that... The UEF are the protagonists. This is probably for a reason. Most protagonists win in the end...
My apologies, I had a brain fart. Though in my case it would probably be more like a corpse blowing open, but either way, I'm sorry. And I'd love to read the tech room for BP again. But I redownloaded it and when it's the selected mod, the launcher goes nuts and 3.6.12 crashes on pilot select. :sigh:
They're protagonists in WiH, but not in AoA but I'd have to say that I personally have more emotional attachment to the GTVA, since every campaign (in the FS universe) I've played, except for this year, has them as the protagonist.That whole post considers that the GTVA Bei fought for during AoA is the same GTVA we fight in WiH. The last mission of AoA made it pretty clear that, at least for Bei, that GTVA doesn't exist anymore, and that's the very reason Bei defected to the UEF.
The way I see it:
The UEF fights emotionally - either completely damning violence, or going on a quest for vengeance (See Pawns on a Board of Bone). Yes the GTVA is going up against an unknown force in the Shivans - but they're doing their best to gain tactical and technological ground. Remember what Sam Bei said "Even if we die today, we will embody the true spirit of a GTVA pilot, fighting against the odds to protect those we love." That appears to be the philosophy of the Tevs in WiH - an honorable death against the odds is a fine one (very similar to the Berserks in Viking epics) that's the very thing that makes them a superior force to the UEF armada - a willingness to take losses and die, and a willingness to use every available technology to take down as many enemies as they can.
Even with the example of Capella, the tech room makes it very clear that it was a tactical miracle pulled off by the GTVA.That's what we usually call propaganda dear sir.
And Tevs are already used to dying in large numbers. That could explain why they keep on making bigger ships. The firepower to them is worth the risk of more lives.They're protagonists in WiH, but not in AoA but I'd have to say that I personally have more emotional attachment to the GTVA, since every campaign (in the FS universe) I've played, except for this year, has them as the protagonist.That whole post considers that the GTVA Bei fought for during AoA is the same GTVA we fight in WiH. The last mission of AoA made it pretty clear that, at least for Bei, that GTVA doesn't exist anymore, and that's the very reason Bei defected to the UEF.
The way I see it:
The UEF fights emotionally - either completely damning violence, or going on a quest for vengeance (See Pawns on a Board of Bone). Yes the GTVA is going up against an unknown force in the Shivans - but they're doing their best to gain tactical and technological ground. Remember what Sam Bei said "Even if we die today, we will embody the true spirit of a GTVA pilot, fighting against the odds to protect those we love." That appears to be the philosophy of the Tevs in WiH - an honorable death against the odds is a fine one (very similar to the Berserks in Viking epics) that's the very thing that makes them a superior force to the UEF armada - a willingness to take losses and die, and a willingness to use every available technology to take down as many enemies as they can.QuoteEven with the example of Capella, the tech room makes it very clear that it was a tactical miracle pulled off by the GTVA.That's what we usually call propaganda dear sir.
Apart from what Matt said, how is fighting technologically and numerically inferiour pacifists (including blowing up civilian ships and structures and bombarding Luna) "protecting those we love" and "fighting against the odds"?They're protagonists in WiH, but not in AoA but I'd have to say that I personally have more emotional attachment to the GTVA, since every campaign (in the FS universe) I've played, except for this year, has them as the protagonist.That whole post considers that the GTVA Bei fought for during AoA is the same GTVA we fight in WiH. The last mission of AoA made it pretty clear that, at least for Bei, that GTVA doesn't exist anymore, and that's the very reason Bei defected to the UEF.
The way I see it:
The UEF fights emotionally - either completely damning violence, or going on a quest for vengeance (See Pawns on a Board of Bone). Yes the GTVA is going up against an unknown force in the Shivans - but they're doing their best to gain tactical and technological ground. Remember what Sam Bei said "Even if we die today, we will embody the true spirit of a GTVA pilot, fighting against the odds to protect those we love." That appears to be the philosophy of the Tevs in WiH - an honorable death against the odds is a fine one (very similar to the Berserks in Viking epics) that's the very thing that makes them a superior force to the UEF armada - a willingness to take losses and die, and a willingness to use every available technology to take down as many enemies as they can.
These are just side effects to the unification plan.
I bet you'll see two different solutions to the same problem, each faction has it's own way to deal with the Shivan problem, we'll just have to wait to see which one is the correct one.. if there is a correct way to handle that problem.
Apart from what Matt said, how is fighting technologically and numerically inferiour pacifists (including blowing up civilian ships and structures and bombarding Luna) "protecting those we love" and "fighting against the odds"?They're protagonists in WiH, but not in AoA but I'd have to say that I personally have more emotional attachment to the GTVA, since every campaign (in the FS universe) I've played, except for this year, has them as the protagonist.That whole post considers that the GTVA Bei fought for during AoA is the same GTVA we fight in WiH. The last mission of AoA made it pretty clear that, at least for Bei, that GTVA doesn't exist anymore, and that's the very reason Bei defected to the UEF.
The way I see it:
The UEF fights emotionally - either completely damning violence, or going on a quest for vengeance (See Pawns on a Board of Bone). Yes the GTVA is going up against an unknown force in the Shivans - but they're doing their best to gain tactical and technological ground. Remember what Sam Bei said "Even if we die today, we will embody the true spirit of a GTVA pilot, fighting against the odds to protect those we love." That appears to be the philosophy of the Tevs in WiH - an honorable death against the odds is a fine one (very similar to the Berserks in Viking epics) that's the very thing that makes them a superior force to the UEF armada - a willingness to take losses and die, and a willingness to use every available technology to take down as many enemies as they can.
It did work the first time, but now the Shivans know that "solution". Will it work a second time? Or a third time?
With the Shivans adaptability I wouldn't count on the node-collapse being a secure strategy.
I was showing a culture of being willing to die in the military. I wasn't saying anything about the current war, other than GTVA fighters are more willing to die for their cause in general.
I don't think they're more willing to die - noone really is - but they just don't give a sh*t. That's the only real difference between the UEF and GTVA, otherwise they're both quite similar. The Feds are as you said: they're sensitive to 'right' and 'wrong' and keeping to the rules of war. Even in Delenda Est where the Wargods were at their most aggressive they still offered Lopez a chance to surrender. The 'no civilian' aspect of BETAC is the Tev's side of the mercy coin. The difference being they can choose to ignore it via the "total war clause", where as I doubt the Feds would bomb civvies...not yet anyway.
EDIT: I think the last two pages of this topic should be merged with General Discussion.
They're rather willing in general to throw civilian lives away by the end - Pawns on a Board of Bone. The whole point of that is that they lost themselves.
They're rather willing in general to throw civilian lives away by the end - Pawns on a Board of Bone. The whole point of that is that they lost themselves.
You are inferring a general shift in UEF military behaviour from the behaviour of one task force. That is a wrong thing to do.
I don't think they're more willing to die - noone really is - but they just don't give a sh*t. That's the only real difference between the UEF and GTVA, otherwise they're both quite similar. The Feds are as you said: they're sensitive to 'right' and 'wrong' and keeping to the rules of war. Even in Delenda Est where the Wargods were at their most aggressive they still offered Lopez a chance to surrender. The 'no civilian' aspect of BETAC is the Tev's side of the mercy coin. The difference being they can choose to ignore it via the "total war clause", where as I doubt the Feds would bomb civvies...not yet anyway.
They're rather willing in general to throw civilian lives away by the end - Pawns on a Board of Bone. The whole point of that is that they lost themselves.
The funny part about the GTVA total war clause is that they still give the civilians a chance to surrender - the first mission of WiH for instance. It's not like they randomly kill civilians for the hell of it.EDIT: I think the last two pages of this topic should be merged with General Discussion.
Agreed, but I think the BP discussion thread might do better.
They're rather willing in general to throw civilian lives away by the end - Pawns on a Board of Bone. The whole point of that is that they lost themselves.
You are inferring a general shift in UEF military behaviour from the behaviour of one task force. That is a wrong thing to do.
The funny part about the GTVA total war clause is that they still give the civilians a chance to surrender - the first mission of WiH for instance. It's not like they randomly kill civilians for the hell of it.Erm... no. That was the decision of a wing leader to offer the surrender. The first two (or three?) waves of attackers that came before the one that offered them a chance to surrender, didn't bother with any such offers. They just immediately started to blast away at the convoy.
The funny part about the GTVA total war clause is that they still give the civilians a chance to surrender - the first mission of WiH for instance. It's not like they randomly kill civilians for the hell of it.Erm... no. That was the decision of a wing leader to offer the surrender. The first two (or three?) waves of attackers that came before the one that offered them a chance to surrender, didn't bother with any such offers. They just immediately started to blast away at the convoy.
The GTVA and the UEF philosophy and military doctrines...heh. The UEF's never seen how deep crap can get, like the GTVA have. I'd say this makes the UEF, inherently weak. The UEF never faced the Shivans. The GTA did. The UEF doesn't understand why the GTVA is big ships and big guns. Having fast, maneuverable corvettes and frigates and battlegroups whatnot are nothing to hitscanning, giant, evil pulsating red beams that always seems to have a tendency to hit Alpha 1 when shooting at a capital ship. And especially the...sheer numbers (read: SF Dragon) of the Shivans which can turn your surprise 'jump behind into the blindspot', useless. As with the Solaris, the UEF was built for a 'non-existent threat'. The GTVA, engineered for the Shivan threat. The GTVA Colossus. I'd like to see it in Blue Planet.
The threat that threatens to destroy all that they hold dear. Vasuda. Capella. Both...gone. If the GT of the GTVA takes that one more step, Earth will be theirs. Why don't they take that extra step, I do not know. Perhaps the GTD Aquitane's battlegroup, which could (help) win the war, could've been sent. But why not? There are threats looming. For every ship taken away from GTVA systems, the higher the chance that particular system could be lost to a sudden invasion by XXX. Heh, I'm not sure how this relates to ship size inflation, but it explains itself to me in a philosophical way. I do expect to hear someone saying biased, though. Just my two ¥.
I know, I've beenThe GTVA and the UEF philosophy and military doctrines...heh. The UEF's never seen how deep crap can get, like the GTVA have. I'd say this makes the UEF, inherently weak. The UEF never faced the Shivans. The GTA did. The UEF doesn't understand why the GTVA is big ships and big guns. Having fast, maneuverable corvettes and frigates and battlegroups whatnot are nothing to hitscanning, giant, evil pulsating red beams that always seems to have a tendency to hit Alpha 1 when shooting at a capital ship. And especially the...sheer numbers (read: SF Dragon) of the Shivans which can turn your surprise 'jump behind into the blindspot', useless. As with the Solaris, the UEF was built for a 'non-existent threat'. The GTVA, engineered for the Shivan threat. The GTVA Colossus. I'd like to see it in Blue Planet.
The threat that threatens to destroy all that they hold dear. Vasuda. Capella. Both...gone. If the GT of the GTVA takes that one more step, Earth will be theirs. Why don't they take that extra step, I do not know. Perhaps the GTD Aquitane's battlegroup, which could (help) win the war, could've been sent. But why not? There are threats looming. For every ship taken away from GTVA systems, the higher the chance that particular system could be lost to a sudden invasion by XXX. Heh, I'm not sure how this relates to ship size inflation, but it explains itself to me in a philosophical way. I do expect to hear someone saying biased, though. Just my two ¥.
Not trying to be overly dismissive here, but have you read the supplementary materials for Blue Planet? Techroom entries, and the fiction posted on our website? Because most of what you said there was adressed, in one form or another.
Also, you are contradicting yourself massively. The GTVA fleet in BP is in the process of converting to a model where you have fast and maneuverable Corvettes as the main source of firepower (See: Serkr Team. Those guys are built to take down Sathanases without having to commit multiple Destroyers in the process). Big dreadnoughts like the Colossus are, in the BP universe, a really bad idea, because they represent a single concentrated force, which can be outmaneuvered with ease (Yes, the Colossus is the ultimate blockade breaker. It would be utterly helpless in the Sol theater.). Also, never underestimate the firepower a UEF frigate squadron can put out. Or the firepower of fighters like the Durga, Izra'il or Vajradahara.
I'm not so sure the Colossus would be useless in the Sol Theater, it would simply fill the UEF public with terror and dread. Here they are struggling hard again Raynor's and Titan's, then suddenly this gigantic, gritty, ugly tev juggernaut appears through the node. Bristling with enough firepower to rival nearly half an entire UEF fleet all by itself? Terrifying to your average 'buntu. Granted, in direct combat a Colly would struggle with it's Capella-era green beams. But the psychological impact of the GTVA possessing such a vessel and using it would be very beneficial to undermining the UEF's will to fight.
Besides, I'm sure Steele could do very magical things to the UEF if he had command of a Colossus. :P
Colossus would actually be an usefull asset for the GTVA against the UEF, seeing as it can use long range beams and is invurnable to flanking, making attacking it really difficult.
Also, it's fighters would have been usefull in case of fighter attack. Speed and cost of operating are the downsides of Colossus, UEF would simply flee from it wherever it shows up, such ship can't be in multiple places at once.
seeing as it can use long range beams and is invurnable to flanking,
Range advantage is nullified by Narayanas and fighter strikes.
Range advantage is nullified by Narayanas and fighter strikes. Carrier capacity is better supplied via Hecate- or Titan-class ships. Ressources spent to build a massive juggernaught are better employed building strike corvettes and Raynors or Titans.Colossus has it's own fighters to defend itself and at the time of return to Sol, it would have most likely been upgraded with new beams. Though, as I said, costs of deploying and operating such a ship make it less effective compared to smaller, more versatile warships. The biggest adventage Colossus would have against UEF would be it's size, which makes a great psychological weapon. I doubt UEF would dare to fight a ship of such size (and so though it would appear invincible, even when technically not being so), it could also serve as a morale booster for GTVA. If they did dare to fight it, however, it would soon turn out to be less usefull than regular carriers and destroyers, being a single ship (thus unable to defend two locations at once) and being rather slow.
I am firmly of the opinion that the UEF forces, if they had fought competently, could have secured Sol rather easily;Also, if 1st fleet wasn't mostly standing near Earth and guarding their secret project (though they do it for a good reason, which will be revealed when the time comes), they could shift the balance in favor of UEF. If all three fleets answered to a single commander, and if that commander was a good tactican, then UEF could be doing much better.
In terms of technological capabilities, the UEF is at least the GTVA's equal. However, because they didn't use the chances they had to establish a permanent blockade of the node, the GTVA can now exploit their much greater reserves.
Range advantage is nullified by Narayanas and fighter strikes. Carrier capacity is better supplied via Hecate- or Titan-class ships. Ressources spent to build a massive juggernaught are better employed building strike corvettes and Raynors or Titans.Colossus has it's own fighters to defend itself and at the time of return to Sol, it would have most likely been upgraded with new beams. Though, as I said, costs of deploying and operating such a ship make it less effective compared to smaller, more versatile warships. The biggest adventage Colossus would have against UEF would be it's size, which makes a great psychological weapon. I doubt UEF would dare to fight a ship of such size (and so though it would appear invincible, even when technically not being so), it could also serve as a morale booster for GTVA. If they did dare to fight it, however, it would soon turn out to be less usefull than regular carriers and destroyers, being a single ship (thus unable to defend two locations at once) and being rather slow.I am firmly of the opinion that the UEF forces, if they had fought competently, could have secured Sol rather easily;Also, if 1st fleet wasn't mostly standing near Earth and guarding their secret project (though they do it for a good reason, which will be revealed when the time comes), they could shift the balance in favor of UEF. If all three fleets answered to a single commander, and if that commander was a good tactican, then UEF could be doing much better.
And what would you destroy the UEF forces with, if all your budget went in the Colly itself ?You already have ships built, like that annoying GTD Raynor Steele captains and the GTD Imper-something, and their battlegroups. Just put them on node guard for...ten or twenty years.
Well, a Colossus in Sol would most certainly lure UEF ships out...so it would be a perfect bait to crush any attempts to destroy it.
Calder almost single-handedly holding back the GTVA invasion for over a year should be proof of that.
On the case of technological level, I'd say the UEF is much, much more primitive. What do the UEF have in comparison to an antimatter torpedo?
(GTVA has many suns, the Antimatter complex at Mercury could be blown up and...poof.) They don't even possess basic (AAA) beams, even.
If the blob turrets had better AI instead of Captain and quit shooting at fighters when there are bombs/anti-ship missiles around...and from what I see, the UEF as of R1, has no sentry guns (Hey, they're not useless!) at all for some odd reason. The GTVA (well...the NTF I guess) had asteroids which could shoot and transform into a destroyer-armed frigate! Oh and, don't you love firing TAG-Cs at UEF bombers?
The Apocalypse torpedo, Warhammer, Jackhammer and Sledgehammer missiles all carry antimatter warheads. If there is one resource the UEF has ample supply of, it's antimatter.Haven't played WiH for a while, doesn't the Redeemer fire antimatter-tipped shells also?
I'm not sure where would the GTVA have the Colossus defend actually. Do they actually have anything to defend in Sol? I didn't know they had any. But it's best position would be scaring people for defense (dress up as the Colossus on Halloween), and counter-bait, yeah. Like Saturn.Well, a Colossus in Sol would most certainly lure UEF ships out...so it would be a perfect bait to crush any attempts to destroy it.
Perhaps the UEF fleet would just avoid it at all costs... In this sense, the Colly would be the ultimate defender of any given position the tevs would like to preserve in the middle of the war. It could also serve as a counter-bait. You move the colly, everyone there flees and then you attack the UEF fleet to wherever they went.
There's another problem with the Collossus. That ship was built by both humans and vasudans. It was voiced by humans, but it was a joint endeavour. I seriously doubt that the Vasudans would okay the release of such a ship for the civil war of humans... at least there would be created a huge point of tension.
And of course, it's incredibly bad economics.
The UEF, on the other hand, is far better at gathering intelligence
Really?, yet they fell completely on that last plan to destroy the Wargods.Actually I don't think UEF intelligence banked on him being a double agent. It kinda sucks, since there's no double-cross or something spy system Britain used in WWII, here.
I do know the Colossus is dead and won't ever appear in BP, The E. That's why I've said 'Remember, this is a 'what if'. All theoretical, nonsense and rubbish stuff.' I'm accounting for the Superbat being the endgame because there is something huge in path that they (UEF) can't blow up. And because the UEF has to avoid the Colossus, wherever the Colossus goes = Area denial. Go to Luna...there. Earth, endgame. The other's comments do matter as well. Whatever, past the Colossus finally:Is your "What If?" a free Colossus for the GTVA? Because if they had built another Colossus (and not gotten a free one from God) then they would not have had all those other ships.
Technology level, not the weapon effectiveness. That's the key point. I'm leaning towards that the UEF is technologically inferior.How so? Most of the R&D got stuck on the Sol side. They developed jump gates by themselves. They developed fighter primaries outclassing the Kayser without the benefit of studying Shivans from the Second Incursion.
Your 'never' in the Mercury topic is quite unstable. I'm sure the environmental factors are nothing if they drag a AWACS or two over. If the Indus didn't already melt badly being that close to the sun, yet only taking structural damage and rad poisoning, somewhere as 'far' away as Mercury wouldn't be that bad at all.I'm pretty sure if The E say it's true then it's true. :nervous:
A joint project and the Vasudans agreeing wouldn't be a problem, Steele did a number to the Ubuntu-Vasudan relationship by smashing that shuttle with the Pegasus fighters and the Vasudan admiral arrived in the Hatshepsut.He would have to convince the Vasudans not only that they should support the Terrans in the war against Sol, but also that the Colossus is an effective ship. And I doubt Steele would even want to.
Oh and just for a note on my point: It's pitting the UEF against a Colossus and it's battlegroup. Not alone~And where do you take this battlegroup from, since you already sent all your money into the Colossus ?
I feel like all the points the others and I made in favor of the Colossus (and why it would suck anyway) was overlooked for some reason, heheh.Oh and just for a note on my point: It's pitting the UEF against a Colossus and it's battlegroup. Not alone~And where do you take this battlegroup from, since you already sent all your money into the Colossus ?
Remember that the Tevs are on the verge of economic collapse. One of their main drive to wage war in Sol is to get hold of their economical and industrial power. They already have sent most their resources to build the Sol Portal. More than half their fleet is still comprised of Capella-era ships or older. If they had tried to build a Colossus, especially in parallel of such a project as the Sol portal, none of the newest Terran tech would probably even happen. No blue beams, no Balors, no SSMs. And the UEF warships are more than a match to Capella-era stuff.
The GTVA would basically have been toast. They would never have the firepower to defend such a big and slow target as the Collossus if it was deployed in the Sol theater. A couple of Narayana or a few wings of Varjas and you can say bye to the Collie, not to mention a wing of Karunas with AWACS support. Which means that the GTVA would never risk to send the Colly in Sol. Which means that they'll have to fight a war in the Sol system with assets even inferior to what they have in WiH. Since they didn't manage to gain any sizeable foot on Sol during 18 months even with the new tech, they would probably have been fought back in a few months without it.
the Wargods either will or will not have or not have an impact or no impact at all. :banghead: :rolleyes:Wait...what?
The Apocalypse, Redeemer, those Sledgehammer and Jackhammer bombs and all that are all antimatter. The GTVA also uses antimatter.Antimatter has been used as a weapon since the Great War. Nothing new here except that the UEF has more. And it's improved since.
The Warhammer is just a bomb version of the Hornet, used in the Great War. Old stuff. GTVA also uses swarm weaponry.I don't know why you think that "swarm" counts as technology, but the ability to put swarm torpedoes on bombers is new.
The Slammer is just a different version of the Infyrno that so happens to explode in one direction and has aspect lock, GTVA also fields this kind of weapon except it explodes differently and is dumbfire, and they also have one that launches missiles.True that aspect lock and cluster missiles are not new, but one has to wonder how the UEF made something so vastly more powerful than Piranhas or Infyrnos with medium-long range to boot.
Mass drivers, railguns, gauss cannons, EMP missiles, energy vampires, shieldbreakers are all under electromagnetic weaponry, which the GTVA has as well.Lamprey and Circe are kinda terrible.
Hell, they've even got a rapid firing mass driver on multiple gunbanks even.Maxim techroom entry indicates that it is at least partially a firearm.
Flak weaponry, the GTVA also employs this. The GTVA uses plasma weaponry as well.I don't know why you're using this as an example, since again
You don't see the UEF utilizing Meson weaponry.We don't know how meson bombs work, but there was speculation a while back that it's just a cool name for a big matter-antimatter bomb.
Xaser weaponry."Xaser" in BP is just a specific kind of plasma weapon.
Subatomic weaponry w/ zero-point energy.I guess you got me there. The UEF has nothing approaching that level of technobabble. Then again, since it is technobabble, I have no idea how advanced it really is.
That annoying Morning Star.The Flail is ooold, works on the same principles, and is arguably better.
The UEF lacks even target acquisition beacons, the TAGs. Even without the TAGs, the Charybdis can do ECCM against an Ocular.Yeah. I wouldn't cite this as an example of "technology," however.
Oh and: BeamsThe UEF does have beam technology from the defectors if nothing else. They do not have the means to mass-produce it.
Most of these things amount to tactical doctrine more than technology.
The Balor is still crazy deadly nonetheless.
Is your "What If?" a free Colossus for the GTVA? Because if they had built another Colossus (and not gotten a free one from God) then they would not have had all those other ships.
Is your "What If?" a free Colossus for the GTVA? Because if they had built another Colossus (and not gotten a free one from God) then they would not have had all those other ships.
Was gonna make this point myself. If you're gonna gift the GTVA a whole Colossus you might as well gift the UEF another three Solaris', then we'll see how well the Tevs fair.
On the subject of GTVA's supposed tech superiority: don't forget that they got left with the R&D branch of the GTI after Sol was closed off, even if they did rebel. :P Plus the Tev's technological inovations are due in large part to Vasudan contributions as well. IIRC it's mentioned somewhere in BP fluff that the current line of Terran ships have Vasudan designed reactors. Sort of implies that the BBlue et al. wouldn't be possible without the Vasudans. Heck beam weapons in any form might not have been possible if it wasn't for the T-V alliance.
In other words the UEF, in a single star system, has managed to equal if not best the technological advancements of two species! Course saying all this we have yet to see the Zods' new ships in action, I really hope R2 is friendly to the poor old Buntu.
Once you see the new Vasudan ships in action, you cetrainly won't be disappointed.
I don't know when they'll come in (it's possible that they won't be in R2 at all), but when they will, it will be awesome. :)
I think it's fair to say that the UEF has done fairly well for itself technologically and tactically, I'm not disputing that. What I do dispute is that the Feds are technologically even with the GTVA.As far as military technology goes you might be right, but we have little idea about other sectors. I wouldn't be surprised if the UEF was far ahead in civilian technologies, since they didn't put much money into their military, while the GTVA seems to live and breathe for their military (small wonder with the looming threat of the Shivans being ever present).
Fleet formation is important too, right now as it stands the both fleets have horrible formations.You try spending only five minutes putting down every ship from a list and putting them in perfect formations and fitting all of them in a screenshot that gives good estimations of numbers. The UEF simply has too many cruisers to easily display. I like stacked (vertical) formations, but then you couldn't see the ships clearly.
There wouldn't be a single GTVA fighter left with that number of Frigates. :PAssuming 12 fighters for Karunas, [fudged]12 fighters for Narayanas[/fudged], and 192 fighters for Solaris destroyers:
Oh I was just saying that they would be splattered by point-defense like tomatoes through a spinning jet turbine. :)
For one thing the ships are only set out on two axis. I wish more people would play Homeworld, or watch the end battle between Kirk and Khan. Space is 3D.For one thing they're purposely laid out as such so you can actually see the ships.
For one thing the ships are only set out on two axis. I wish more people would play Homeworld, or watch the end battle between Kirk and Khan. Space is 3D.For one thing they're purposely laid out as such so you can actually see the ships.
I know, I was saying what they would look like if it was a battle formation, which it isn't.Hmm, if you want, you could try to have a go at it. I've attached the mission file. The ships aren't named; I suppose they could be, but that would take a while. You'll also get a lot of errors when you fist open it.
Yeah except looking at the fleet comparison image, they have a mere four Chimeras.
There's 21 Karunas.
That alone is a very tight defensive screen.
I know, I was saying what they would look like if it was a battle formation, which it isn't.Hmm, if you want, you could try to have a go at it. I've attached the mission file. The ships aren't named; I suppose they could be, but that would take a while. You'll also get a lot of errors when you fist open it.
I've watched Shivan bombers sitting in burst flak, pounding away at their target. Remember also that most GTVA point defenses get better with difficulty (pulse cannons on insane fire faster - up to 2 every second) it's hard to make comparisons when most UEF weaponry fires at the same rate all the time.Were they Seraphims, by any chance? Owwie.
Goddamn, that would be a pretty (and short and incredibly stupid) fight.lol yup. And unless you have a $10,000 rig, it'd be about 4 fps.
GTVA has more or less stopped to mass-produce cruisers. Those they currently have in service are a few Great War relics (Fenrises in backwater systems, a few Leviathans as destroyer escort), some Aeoluses that are still in production and the new Hyperions as heavy gunboats, and that's it. I'd expect the GTVA shipyards to produce more Deimoses than any other capships.
They probably have much more corvettes than what we see on your last picture Mars.
lol yup. And unless you have a $10,000 rig, it'd be about 4 fps.Yes, it would show 4 FPS, because that's the lowest the counter can go. But considering "massive battle" it would be more realistic to measure in SPF (seconds per frame) :P
Most of the time UEF fleets work independently while their destroyer sits at the homebase sending fighters their way if necessary, so you can hardly compare that with GTVA battlegroups.Well, that's how GTVA battlegroups operate too. Unless you have front-line desties, you don't send your Hecate do the dirty work.
Approximated Terran destroyer fleet and some escorts.
Are Hecates still in production? I know they're not the best, especially in ship combat, but as a carrier they seem to get the job done pretty well. I mean they are getting on a bit but IIRC Orions were still being built during FS2 and they were thirty plus years old by then.
We know of 2 Titans and 2 Raynors. There may be one more of each; but yeah, Raynors and Titans are rather expensive, and we figure that they are too new for there to be many more. For information, the Atreus was the first ship of the Raynor class, the Orestes was the second.Are Hecates still in production? I know they're not the best, especially in ship combat, but as a carrier they seem to get the job done pretty well. I mean they are getting on a bit but IIRC Orions were still being built during FS2 and they were thirty plus years old by then.
No, they're not in production anymore. Basically, the GTVA is slowly replacing or mothballing Hecates as Titans and Raynors come online, with Hecates being relegated to second-line carriers.
So...the Orestes and Temaraire are being examined piece by piece, system by system. . . for let's say. . . 6 month?I believe the one thing that the GTVA isn't lacking is well trained personnel. I'm guessing there are masses of officers from cruisers, corvettes, squadrons, or even non-combatant craft FIGHTING to gain command of the Orestes, and that the crew members working on say, reactor systems, could be drafted in from working on cruisers or corvettes, or even decommissioned Hecates.
Training of two completly new crews...well...
In you serve nine month in the Bundeswehr...so i guess...one year for the normal desroyer crew...officers will be simply draft picked from other destroyers...or the crews of ships reaching the end of their lifetime will be transfered.
So...on one hand, Steele's chances of winning would greatly increase with another Raynor and Titan. . . but on the other hand. . . he's not the guy having another Raynor-class in system stealing him possible victories...
Those numbers are around about how I imagined the Galactic Terran destroyer strength to be by the time of AoA. Good call :D
So...the Orestes and Temaraire are being examined piece by piece, system by system...let's say...6 month?
Training of two completly new crews...well...
In you serve nine month in the Bundeswehr...so i guess...one year for the normal desroyer crew...officers will be simply draft picked from other destroyers...or the crews of ships reaching the end of their lifetime will be transfered.
So...on one hand, Steeles possibilitys of warfare would greatly increase with another Raynor and Titan...but on the other hand...he's not the guy having onother Raynor-class in system stealing him possible victories...
Please excuse my bad english.
For information, the Atreus was the first ship of the Raynor class, the Orestes was the second.Hmm, so the GTVA doesn't name the first ship of the class the GTD Raynor? I see...
I think it was for his motorcycle somehow. . .?Yeah I'm pretty sure it was named after StratComm or someone's motorcycle.
The GTD Carthage is one of the oldest capital ships still in service with the Alliance fleet. Launched towards the end of the Great War, she has participated in most major campaigns fought by the GTVA, and her accumulated combat record is unparalleled.
After she was nearly destroyed during the nebula campaign, she was refitted as a Combat Evaluation Unit Destroyer, to field-test new armor, propulsion and ECM designs. Exact details are unavailable, but we do know that her anti-fighter armament has been substantially upgraded to allow her to survive in today's fighter-centric combat environment. Indications exist that she has been fitted with a prototype version of the sprint drive, which essentially consists of a second subspace drive motivator. Her hull plating, in combination with her extensive redesign, have increased her combat survivability by several orders of magnitude. While the ship has been in active duty for the better part of 50 years, ONI estimates that destroying her or achieving a mission kill will take careful planning and considerable firepower.
The Carthage and her escort fleet have been under the command of Admiral Anita Lopez for 15 years, and while her command is primarily composed of old ship designs, all the rough edges have long since been worn away, and the battlegroup is consistently found in the top 10 percent of the GTVA's Fleet Performance evaluations.
Considering how big the ships are, I would think they have enough crew to rotate personnel internally to prevent, or at least greatly postpone any psychological issues like combat stress. That and the support infrastructure they have in Sol should allow rotating personnel without rotating the ships themselves out of the Sol theater.Well the Carthage only has a set amount of bunks, and when you have twice the amount of crew necessary onboard, that means you need to cater for twice as many, and then you have additional issues that I believe come about when men and women of the profession of arms sit around all day doing nothing whilst their mates are out fighting and dying (could be wrong, someone with a psych background verify?).
Certainly. Which is why I said "without good cause"Ah yeah. I thought that 'when they're ready' in the previous post implied that it was when the time came to rotate them to the back that he meant. Anyway.
Also, badass pic is badass:I take you badass pic and rise with another badass pic.
(http://hard-light.net/wiki/images/CarthageBP.png)
Just saw the Halo reference in the Carthage wiki entry. :) Is that an R2 mission or is it set before R1? I ask since it's around Neptune.
Last time the Imperieuse was damaged, it was expected to retreat back to DS. However, DE has showed that the Tevs are more than able to repair such a ship on field, and in total secrecy to boot. I don't know how long it took though.I'd say with the Vasudans going into full gear with logistics support...the Imperieuse must've jumped somewhere deep, maybe even further than Pluto, then put an AWACS on two (Remember the GTA Spectre before the Pegasus fighters splashed the Elder?) nearby. Plus, the UEF didn't have the resources to go find the Imperieuse, let alone try attacking it...oh and, damn Auroras.
Just saw the Halo reference in the Carthage wiki entry. :) Is that an R2 mission or is it set before R1? I ask since it's around Neptune.
"ONI" is not a Halo reference :P
And yes, it's a mission from R2.
Last time the Imperieuse was damaged, it was expected to retreat back to DS. However, DE has showed that the Tevs are more than able to repair such a ship on field, and in total secrecy to boot. I don't know how long it took though.I'd say with the Vasudans going into full gear with logistics support...the Imperieuse must've jumped somewhere deep, maybe even further than Pluto, then put an AWACS on two (Remember the GTA Spectre before the Pegasus fighters splashed the Elder?) nearby. Plus, the UEF didn't have the resources to go find the Imperieuse, let alone try attacking it...oh and, damn Auroras.
Office of Naval intelligence, too
Which has got me thinking; how far away from a sun's gravity well can a capital ship jump?Not too sure...does it even apply? I mean, we were quite far away from anything in High Noob, and we know nothing about the mysterious nebula beyond Gamma Draconis - GTVA Colossus intro...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the star in the nebula a Mediavps addition? I don't recall seeing it at all in retail (which was a long ass time ago, so my memory is probably screwing with me.)I'm quite sure it was a retail thing.
Restaf perhaps, flying in new fighters (especially if they come together with the pilots) no problem, but what about repairs?
I doubt the facilities the GTVA has inside Sol are going to get the Carthage battle-ready as fast as those in Delta Serpentis. So a few weeks pause in DS are very likely I think.
However, now that the Carthage's battlegroup has been quite crippled (all ships heavily battle-damaged, fighter complement nullified, one corvette and one cruiser captured), I'd expect it to be rotated for a new one soon enough.
Since you technically CAN destroy all/most of those ships (simply by disabling their engines before they flee), I don't expect WiH2 to consider they are still alive. The Carthage will have to be rotated for a new battlegroup or get a truckload of new warships to replace the losses, whether the losses really happened in WiH or not.I think you're probably right, although I doubt you'll read anything about a true massacre.
High Noob:wakka: :wakka: :wakka: :wakka: :wakka:
Deimos corvettes seem to be pretty replaceable though, which is odd. Back in FS2 Sobeks were said to have 6,000 crew, so you'd think command would get pretty worked up over even the loss of a Deimos.Deimoses are the new cruisers, read the tech description. Those things use Capella-era technology yet are extremely useful and well-designed, and hence are cheap, easy to maintain and repair, and have been mass-produced since Capella.
Hard to think realistically when they keep happening, the entire crew dead because the furthest part of the ship was hit by a beam that cauterized that part, yet magically the ship still explodes.Unless there was a reactor or something similarly fragile and susceptible to blow up on that part.
Deimoses are the new cruisers, read the tech description. Those things use Capella-era technology yet are extremely useful and well-designed, and hence are cheap, easy to maintain and repair, and have been mass-produced since Capella.
I'd put VSlashes on Deimoses since they use Vasudan reactors to make them more useful, eh. The Deimos and Aeolus are...quite the quintessential ships the GTVA needs beside those new shiny ones the Serkr ones are made up of.
Well Mars, maybe the ships have got more automation and stuff now to reduce crew and etc...?
Don't forget, there are also losses that are only mentioned in the narrative and not seen on screen; those would add 3 Karunas and 2 Narayanas to the UEF losses.
I should clarify, I'm not trying to flame you, but I find your mispelling of High Noon decidedly humorous. It's nothing personal.Nah, I totally understand. Flamin' is bad, that zero tolerance policy up there says something.
Right, so...is the Indus going to be written off or fixed and put back into commission? Just theorizing, not fishing for information~
Don't forget, there are also losses that are only mentioned in the narrative and not seen on screen; those would add 3 Karunas and 2 Narayanas to the UEF losses.
Right, so...is the Indus going to be written off or fixed and put back into commission? Just theorizing, not fishing for information~
Nah, I totally understand. Flamin' is bad, that zero tolerance policy up there says something.
With little tweaks to Hyperion's armament it could serve in multiple roles, essentially replacing all previous Tev cruisers. They have the platform, why aren't they using it to its full potential? Hyperion is severely underestimated little bugger.
Isn't it because they're considered just plain too fragile?Hyperion should be more durable than Aeolus, which in turn is more durable than Leviathan. AoA weapons were designed before my involvement in the team. What tweaks were made between original AoA and Director's Cut were minor at best, excluding Balor.
IIRC you designed most of the weapons, didn't you Fury? Good a time as any to say that without exception they're pretty awesome.
I expect Hyperions to be quickly superseeded by the Cretheus in its intended gunboat and warship escort role.How the hell you know about Cretheus?
Been mentioned in #bp. A good while ago actually. Said there would be an UEF equivalent too.Well, I suppose it is one of the best designed assets available.
The problem with the Hyperion is that it's a cruiser - which means that you don't need bombs or warships to take those out
CA 3242 Dea Bricta - Sanctus class
CA 3243 Auxerre - Sanctus class
CA 3242 Dea Bricta - Sanctus class
CA 3243 Auxerre - Sanctus class
Actually you can save those two, so long as you remember to take out the Hood's BFGreen.
CA 3242 Dea Bricta - Sanctus class
CA 3243 Auxerre - Sanctus class
Actually you can save those two, so long as you remember to take out the Hood's BFGreen.
Right you are, edited.
Although I'd have to say, the Medea is a lot more of a problem.
The Hood should really have a couple more escorts (like some Aeoluses off the bow for instance) the way the Meridian did, but the mission was huge and complex enough as is...What I'm curious is that the Serkr team was deployed wrongly. If they did their usual shock jump tactics they'd blow up the Wargods...what's going on? Is that command guy head.ani really that desperate for a GTL Anemoi?
...however it would've been kind of sweet to give the Toutatis a few more things to shoot at...hmmmmm...
The Hood should really have a couple more escorts (like some Aeoluses off the bow for instance) the way the Meridian did, but the mission was huge and complex enough as is...What I'm curious is that the Serkr team was deployed wrongly. If they did their usual shock jump tactics they'd blow up the Wargods...what's going on? Is that command guy head.ani really that desperate for a GTL Anemoi?
...however it would've been kind of sweet to give the Toutatis a few more things to shoot at...hmmmmm...
I expect Hyperions to be quickly superseeded by the Cretheus in its intended gunboat and warship escort role.How the hell you know about Cretheus?
I have no idea what the hell it is.Cretheus (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTC_Cretheus) by Axem.
Gattler from long range.
Gattler from long range.
Well, the Hyperion and Aeolus are both fairly good with point defenses, the difference is, they have enough hitpoints to actually typically make a jump before they're destroyed. The trouble I see with the Creth is that it's so small that a Uhlan armed with Gats and Hellfires is likely to be able to destroy the thing without even disabling it.Well that's kind of the point. Time and resources spent killing Cretheuses probably isn't worth it, since it allows other more crucial ships (convoys, corvettes, destroyers) to escape or survive long enough for help to come.
But they have Basilisks galore and the Shivan Hornet.Gattler from long range.
Which the Shivans don't have, possibly the single reason why cruisers are still flying.
But they have Basilisks galore and the Shivan Hornet.Gattler from long range.
Which the Shivans don't have, possibly the single reason why cruisers are still flying.
And a wing of those letting salvo after salvo loose will put even an Aeolus at half full before they're destroyed.
Question: I've seen a stiletto being intercepted by flak fire...why isn't this possible with Trebs and other stuff, are they too fast?
The funny thing about beams is that target's size and speed doesn't really matter. As long as game decides that this beam hits its target, it will hit no matter how small and how fast the target is.Hit ? Yes. But once it's firing, the beam doesn't move anymore. If your target is fast enough, it can get out of the trajectory before receiving all the damage.
That's true. Still, the "let's do smaller, cheaper ships with less crew so since cruiser die so easily, we will lose less crew and monee" logic stands.
That's true. Still, the "let's do smaller, cheaper ships with less crew so since cruiser die so easily, we will lose less crew and monee" logic stands.
Depending on what's running them (AI or player), either pray they have a good screen and enough hit points, or pump flares and evade!Actually it'll be rather cool to see capital ships firing bursts of flares/chaff...(or cluster EMP missiles that targets bombs)
Light cruisers are quite excellent if employed properly, in situations where they belong. Heavy beams are obviously a big issue for them, but creating tactical dependencies between ship classes is always a good thing.
Depending on what's running them (AI or player), either pray they have a good screen and enough hit points, or pump flares and evade!Actually it'll be rather cool to see capital ships firing bursts of flares/chaff...(or cluster EMP missiles that targets bombs)
Light cruisers are quite excellent if employed properly, in situations where they belong. Heavy beams are obviously a big issue for them, but creating tactical dependencies between ship classes is always a good thing.
The problem with this is the assumption that killed the Hecate as a useful destroyer: you can engineer the situation to your advantage before contact. FS generally does not allow this because of the nature of subspace travel.
In fact the whole concept of the light cruiser is eerily similar in execution to the way the Hecate turned out in the first place; dismissal of the threat of heavily armed attack and belief in a need for improved capabilities in dealing with fightercraft. (On this it stacks a greater degree of fragility than existing ships that are already judged too fragile.) I really don't think people are going to need to learn this lesson twice in so short a time period, particularly not when their current doctrine goes out of its way to incorporate it.
The problem with this is the assumption that killed the Hecate as a useful destroyerSure, aside from the fact that desties are not expendable. Gunboats are. You can loose a couple of them in bad situations and have all the others perform well in the situations they were designed for. Also, better subspace agility means it's much easier to escape those bad situations unharmed if you're a tiny gunboat than when you're a huge Hecate.
I could foresee the AWACSes vectoring them into the midst of enemy fighter and bomber swarms to rip the hell out of them. Like...a wing of Uriels sitting 3km away from a ship, sniping it...and BAM, FLAK KABOOM! Nah, I'm just dreaming. No way it'll work.
This Cretheos sounds iffy to me, at least as deployed in the Sol Theater. Like has been stated, its far too easy for an intelligent enemy to engineer the battle to his advantage once you've committed, and a vessel like the Cretheos seems like it would simply be torn apart by the UEF armory.The problem is, if what you say was that much a tactical concern for the GTVA, then they wouldn't have deployed cruisers at all, since they have the exact same weaknesses. You see, the GTVA needs light anti-fighter and close escort platforms, which is why the Aeolus and Hyperion are still in production at all. They don't have enough corvettes for that tactical niche, and they would be a waste of useful anti-cap power if committed in that role anyway.
Yes, but we've only seen those employed against on older generation strikecraft. I'm curious to see how well the newer ships like the Atalanta and Nyx would perform in large formations.Probably just as badly, Slammerspawn are basically impossible to evade. I've seen them make virtual 90 degree turns.
A pair of Chimeras and some Cretheus escort would be a terrifying opponent for fighter formations. If Serkr Team had some special Cretheus with maybe a AAA beam or two added to the group, taking them down would be far harder than it already is.Chimeras already have a veritable beam phalanx. Cretheuses would probably be better deployed in support of Deimoses...
And besides, the Cretheus would have an important role in combat with the Shivans. Every cruiser besides the Aeolus has been a failure in that regard, though I'm still not sure what to think of the Hyperion. It will be interesting the current GTVA fights a total war with the Shivans, assuming that scenario does end up coming to pass.The problem with the Hyperion is that it's a glorified Aeolus. It improves on all of its advantages but barely compensate for most of its weaknesses. The cruiser class is a relic from the Great War and is an awkward attempt to compensate between the anti-warship role, with a more than insufficient anti-capital weaponry, and light escort role with anti-fighter coverage but too vulnerable and requiring too many crew to be worth the unavoidable losses.
The Cretheus is a better filler for that niche, simply because it doesn't try to be a corvette, and doesn't waste a quarter or so of its crew and internal space on useless SGreens or SBlues. They're light, they're cheap, they do the job, and they're not gonna be mourned.
They could have a role as ablative flak shielding while in direct company of a heavily gunned ship like a Raynor or a Deimos, one that has good coverage from its heavy guns. But the war with the UEF is ultimately a sideshow and the GTVA can't afford to play attritional combat with the Shivans. 100-to-1 odds; anything less counts as a win for the Shivans.
So what will they do? Mothball the Cretheus after the war? Maybe the Cretheus is a stopgap design converted from some other use while they retool the Hyperion/Aeolus lines?
Don't forget, the Shivans are unlikely to get rid of their cruisers any time soon. I can't speak for the Cretheus, but we have a similar light ship in TI (The Harpy (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/VA--Twisted_Infinities/Harpy/HarpyWIP6.jpg)) which is euipped with anti fighter weaponry only (3AAAfs, 2 flak, 2 Prom-S), lightly armoured, quick etc. etc. What they do well is engage cruisers in groups of three or more - they move fast enough that even a locked on beam can't track them for very long before they move out of the line of fire, and the hulls are so small that slashers tend to pass across them too fast to do any devastating damage. Against something like a Lilith, the key role is keeping the thing off balance, so it can't focus that damned LRed on your major capital ship, while your fighters are trying to defang it.
I can't think of a single ship that meets those standards.
I can't think of a single ship that meets those standards.
Most corvettes can sustain an LRed or two and run away. :P
More generally, most cruisers can take a Cyclops salvo and run away still fairly intact.
These ships would do a good job fighting Shivans in scenarios we've seen in the FreeSpace games. That's what makes them useful.
The problem is that you've created a class which will be hunted by the things that hunt cruisers, i.e. Shivan cruisers/corvettes and mobs of assault fighters, but which are less protected against those things, and you already admit that cruisers are not protected enough.
The bald assertion that they will do a good job does not make it true.
Cruisers can't physically evade assault fighters (and Hornet volleys) using flares and their drives, these little guys can.
What a strange thing to say. It's as if we'd never any designed any missions with these ships, and thus we have to make bald assertions about how they perform, instead of informed statements based on our experience with them.
So, question still stands - Electronic Attacks on Shivan Assets, can this be done by the GTVA currently?I think they're happy not having Shivans to test it on...
jam the firing solutions of GTVA beam weaponsWait till they make a LRBGreen version of the Ter/VSlash, hahaha.
I'm going to agree with Axem that this whole discussion feels slightly silly. It's an argument based on nothing - nobody here except the developers have actually played with these ships, seen how they perform in the scenarios they're intended for, or tried to kill them.Don't ! This discussion, while irrelevant in the sense that we lack data to really know what the capabilities of those new ships will be, is still an excellent exercise for us to familiarize with the BP combat environment and tactics. Personally, the more I think on this, the better HWBP can potentially become.
So, question still stands - Electronic Attacks on Shivan Assets, can this be done by the GTVA currently?AFAIK, beam targeting has nothing to do with communications. Given that the GTVA beam tech is reverse-engineered from the Shivan one, I expect the UEF beam jamming to work on Shivan tech. Now we don't know if the GTVA has this tech too, since a Tev AWACS has never been pitted against a beam-equipped opponent in BP.
AFAIK, beam targeting has nothing to do with communications. Given that the GTVA beam tech is reverse-engineered from the Shivan one, I expect the UEF beam jamming to work on Shivan tech. Now we don't know if the GTVA has this tech too, since a Tev AWACS has never been pitted against a beam-equipped opponent in BP.Beam targeting certainly doesn't involve external communication from the ship, no.
Don't forget, the Shivans are unlikely to get rid of their cruisers any time soon. I can't speak for the Cretheus, but we have a similar light ship in TI (The Harpy (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/VA--Twisted_Infinities/Harpy/HarpyWIP6.jpg)) which is euipped with anti fighter weaponry only (3AAAfs, 2 flak, 2 Prom-S), lightly armoured, quick etc. etc. What they do well is engage cruisers in groups of three or more - they move fast enough that even a locked on beam can't track them for very long before they move out of the line of fire, and the hulls are so small that slashers tend to pass across them too fast to do any devastating damage.I know this isn't the right thread to say this, but I like that design, but I think it would be more fitting as a pre-GTA ship. :)
But... this cruiser can evade a wing of fighters. :shaking: That sounds like a ship full of win right there.What a strange thing to say. It's as if we'd never any designed any missions with these ships, and thus we have to make bald assertions about how they perform, instead of informed statements based on our experience with them.
You also are personally invested in being correct on this, and have possibly designed the missions and the specs in such a way that they don't logically progress from existing frames of reference. It's quite possible that intentionally or unintentionally you've provided them plot armor, from where we're sitting.
Yes but an Ursa has to worry about interceptors' primaries. A cruiser should only worry about the initial missile swarms before the Shivan attackers get destroyed.I don't know how you figure; a cruiser has to worry about primaries. I don't mean that in a bad way, but I simply don't follow.
Any interceptor that gets behind a Cretheus will find itself outranged and outgunned by its pulse cannons. Shivans don't do Maxim strikes and don't display much primary power in BP canon. Against the UEF, if I'm a Cretheus and force them to commit a wing of bombers or gunships, I'd jump out and call it a success.Yes but an Ursa has to worry about interceptors' primaries. A cruiser should only worry about the initial missile swarms before the Shivan attackers get destroyed.I don't know how you figure; a cruiser has to worry about primaries. I don't mean that in a bad way, but I simply don't follow.
They'll still get shots off, and they send more than just one wing in any mission they're used in.I already answered to that :
While instead they're used for stripping the weapons off larger ships from what I remember, since Cruisers weren't used as often as say the original FreeSpace 2 campaign, they always close the distance enough to start striking the hull before going down. And a few seconds is enough for 16 streams of Maxim fire to start withering away that Cruiser's hull.
you don't deploy a wing of bombers against a gunboat. They're for large and important targets.Much less 16 of em. And unless they have an AWACS to plot precision jumps, they'll jump far enough for the fighter cover to blow them space high.
I can easily see it being fast and maneuverable- strike craft style. At 112 meters, it's only about twice the size of an Ursa. . . but an Ursa has shields too.
The wiki says HP - 7kI can easily see it being fast and maneuverable- strike craft style. At 112 meters, it's only about twice the size of an Ursa. . . but an Ursa has shields too.
I may be making an unfounded assumption, but doesn't the Cretheus have shields too?
At 112 meters, it's only about twice the size of an Ursa...Advances in Tev shield tech could enable a ship of this size to be equipped with a shield system. Doesn't mean that's what will happen in WiH2. BP crew are the ones choosing the stats.
As always, the proof is in the pudding, as they say. Until a GTVA task force that has an AWACS platform goes into combat against a Shivan force, there is no way to know for sure.
How does the data overload an 'isolated' network? It's like being hacked by a hacker when your PC doesn't have any internet/network cables jacked in. I suppose the GTVA could just use a telescope or optical means to aim instead, but as it stands I think everyone's using radar which can be jammed, and missing beam shots.
Hmm, I see...if a shielded Lucifer was impossible to destroy, I thought they'd learnt and try shielding their own capships and putting lotsa reactors on them...guess not, hah.
What a strange thing to say. It's as if we'd never any designed any missions with these ships, and thus we have to make bald assertions about how they perform, instead of informed statements based on our experience with them.
You also are personally invested in being correct on this, and have possibly designed the missions and the specs in such a way that they don't logically progress from existing frames of reference. It's quite possible that intentionally or unintentionally you've provided them plot armor, from where we're sitting.
I've been wondering, the massive turrets on the Hecate reminds me of the battleship guns we have. Is it a possibility to have those turrets fire some kind of anti-ship projectile that does several thousand damage per projectile (higher than TerPulse, lower than beams) and fires at a intermediate rate with a bit of range behind it, instead of those little flak? Would be pretty cool...but then again, the Hecate's still going to be forced to carrier role, even if it had those anti-ship guns.
Do you mean it has more HP for it's hull size compared to the Colossus?
Carthage = 200,000
Colossus = 1,000,000
Hahaha, the Hades...How does the data overload an 'isolated' network? It's like being hacked by a hacker when your PC doesn't have any internet/network cables jacked in. I suppose the GTVA could just use a telescope or optical means to aim instead, but as it stands I think everyone's using radar which can be jammed, and missing beam shots.
In STR the Hades tries to aim it's beams manually against a little bitty Faustus. It doesn't succeed of course but it suggests it's at least possible. Not sure how canon it is either, no pun intended. :)Hmm, I see...if a shielded Lucifer was impossible to destroy, I thought they'd learnt and try shielding their own capships and putting lotsa reactors on them...guess not, hah.
Fuel. :P
Damn.
In other words 4 Karunas are a Colossus-killing force. After all that discussion about it tearing through Buntu lines as well.
Oh hai Sathanas, remember me?If you blew up the Carthage in the penultimate mission...
Oh hai Sathanas, remember me?If you blew up the Carthage in the penultimate mission...
Well, didn't the Imperieuse jump in between the Wargods and the Carthage? Both plans would lead to hell.
...right, got ninja'd.
The Raynor won't change on the table level as it will need to keep the same stats it had in AoA (in order to stay compatible with AoA). The buffs are done in FRED, but they are very extensive. We can control just about anything on the FRED level, from the ship's toughness, to its weapons, to the speed at which it turns and fires.
The Raynor won't change on the table level as it will need to keep the same stats it had in AoA (in order to stay compatible with AoA). The buffs are done in FRED, but they are very extensive. We can control just about anything on the FRED level, from the ship's toughness, to its weapons, to the speed at which it turns and fires.
Just table a second, identical Raynor and use it in WiH. AoA can use the original one.
I just noticed that several of the Deimos from Delenda Est have Heavy Armor 20 as well. How exactly does the armor subsystem work? Heavy Armor 20 > Heavy Armor 100 - is it 20% damage transmission, and if so, what's the point of armor with 100% damage transmission?
A missile phalanx destroyer would be cool. Maybe using one of the old HTL models, like the Typhon or something when the Vasudans get involved.
:nervous:
did we discuss this at some point or did you come up with it on your ownMay well have made it up, not really sure.
FFFUUUUUUUU I meant to say Supernova, not Apocalypse! Let me rephrase my question: Can Raynors use Supernova missiles instead of the lame Eos's?I don't think the BP team wants the Raynor to have too much firepower, actually. Plus...it's not stated if Supernovas are SSM strike-capable, IIRC. I wonder if the Raynor regularly fires Eoses into subspace for storage when it's not shooting?
FFFUUUUUUUU I meant to say Supernova, not Apocalypse! Let me rephrase my question: Can Raynors use Supernova missiles instead of the lame Eos's?I don't think the BP team wants the Raynor to have too much firepower, actually. Plus...it's not stated if Supernovas are SSM strike-capable, IIRC. I wonder if the Raynor regularly fires Eoses into subspace for storage when it's not shooting?
I mean, it would look REALLY weird if you fired TAG-Cs at a ship while the Atreus was sitting 45 klicks away...not firing it's Eoses. And suddenly, wham, a buncha Eos torps hit that enemy ship.FFFUUUUUUUU I meant to say Supernova, not Apocalypse! Let me rephrase my question: Can Raynors use Supernova missiles instead of the lame Eos's?I don't think the BP team wants the Raynor to have too much firepower, actually. Plus...it's not stated if Supernovas are SSM strike-capable, IIRC. I wonder if the Raynor regularly fires Eoses into subspace for storage when it's not shooting?
Wah? You mean like using subspace as a cupboard? I don't think it works that way.
I mean, it would look REALLY weird if you fired TAG-Cs at a ship while the Atreus was sitting 45 klicks away...not firing it's Eoses. And suddenly, wham, a buncha Eos torps hit that enemy ship.FFFUUUUUUUU I meant to say Supernova, not Apocalypse! Let me rephrase my question: Can Raynors use Supernova missiles instead of the lame Eos's?I don't think the BP team wants the Raynor to have too much firepower, actually. Plus...it's not stated if Supernovas are SSM strike-capable, IIRC. I wonder if the Raynor regularly fires Eoses into subspace for storage when it's not shooting?
Wah? You mean like using subspace as a cupboard? I don't think it works that way.
Second attempt: Is the VasPulse more powerfull then the TerPulse? Because it was stated, that vasudan technology is more advanced then that of the terrans...it should, shouldn't it?^^
$Fire Wait: 0.5
$Damage: 175
$Damage Type: NormalWeapon
$Armor Factor: 1.3
$Shield Factor: 1.0
$Subsystem Factor: 0.3
$Lifetime: 2.4
$Velocity: 1200.0
$FOF: 0.75
$Fire Wait: 0.35[/font]
$Damage: 100
$Damage Type: NormalWeapon
$Armor Factor: 1.3
$Shield Factor: 1.0
$Subsystem Factor: 0.3
$Lifetime: 2.64
$Velocity: 1200.0
$FOF: 0.75
Unrelated questions:
The GTVA figured out torpedoes are the main weaponry of most large UEF capships.
Why haven't they deployed more AWACS in support of their capships, like they did with the Hood, to prevent those torpedoes from launching?
Why haven't they, in all those months of war, developed better PDS or APS?
FRED is canon!
I find heat-seeking missiles to be outrageously useless.On a fighter, yes. You...should try FREDding it out yourself, point a Raynor with Rockeyes, Balls of Steele AI at something.
I find heat-seeking missiles to be outrageously useless.
I honestly don't know how.Considering that from observing my own gametime I seem to miss nearly every missile in a salvo with Darts as opposed to Dirks, maybe that's why.
Except for the tighter trajectories and their tendacy to acutally hit the target, unlike Hornets.
And I'm usually holding Hellfires and Slammers when possible, or Grimlers if needed.
In FS2 Tempests were usually bestSpeaking of the Tempest, I notice dumbfire missiles don't work with capital ships. Why is that so? If multipart turrets work and get to shoot lasers, dumbfire missiles shouldn't be that far, unless it's an engine limitation. Dang, was looking forward to seeing a massive Infyrno watching the Raynor spew out Infyrno missiles.
But it also flies a lead pursuit.I find heat-seeking missiles to be outrageously useless.
The Dart is a heat seeking missile.
They do - look at the Fusion mortar on Fenris and Leviathan cruisers.Oh, so the Fusion Mortar is a special exception with the Fenris/Leviathan for multipart dumbfire missiles? I see.
As far as having it work, the Infyrno is the exception, actually. The turret AI uses spawning missiles differently unless you add the "smart spawn" flag.They do - look at the Fusion mortar on Fenris and Leviathan cruisers.Oh, so the Fusion Mortar is a special exception with the Fenris/Leviathan for multipart dumbfire missiles? I see.
Hmm I see. I tested it out, anything that got near the missile launchers were promptly blown up by a tempest of...Tempests. It was a pretty lightshow for bombers that tried to dodge via afterburners.As far as having it work, the Infyrno is the exception, actually. The turret AI uses spawning missiles differently unless you add the "smart spawn" flag.They do - look at the Fusion mortar on Fenris and Leviathan cruisers.Oh, so the Fusion Mortar is a special exception with the Fenris/Leviathan for multipart dumbfire missiles? I see.
I find heat-seeking missiles to be outrageously useless.
Also, if the Solaris crew remembered to bring Paveways, it's all over for the Erebus XD
It's unfortunate that we've been playing on the UEF side, making the GTVA by necessity hold back a lot of their dirty tricks.
Also, if the Solaris crew remembered to bring Paveways, it's all over for the Erebus XD
Warship-launched countermeasures hugely degrade the effectiveness of Paveways.It's unfortunate that we've been playing on the UEF side, making the GTVA by necessity hold back a lot of their dirty tricks.
Not sure where you're getting this from. If anything the opposite is true - BP2 so far is skewed by the nature of the strategic situation towards mitigating the UEF's tricks and enhancing the GTVA's.
It should also be noted that the Solaris has multiple fighter bays. Destroying all of them with a single shot is doubtful, and assumes that the Solaris CO is basically pointing his ship directly at the Erebus; something the Solaris (as more of a broadside fighter) is not built to do.
Well it's kind of obvious given that you're playing the UEF as a protagonist and thus, you can't give the GTVA complete tactical confidence in every situation otherwise you would never win.
The omnipresent beam jamming, for example.
It's a great storytelling element but in a direct fight, if you throw in the GTVA's dirty tricks department (Titan/Chimera alpha strikes, saturation SSM, destroyer advantage, point defense cruiser formations and Maxim bombardment) it all becomes seriously one sided. Those few tricks employed by the GTVA (Trebuchet strikes, mainly) are quite easily nullified by the enormous advantage of blocking beam cannon fire.
However, some of this critique (and to be fair it is very limited compared to other campaigns) is mollified by the methods employed by the GTVA in Act 3 and the fact that they are starting to shut down Paveway strikes in Act 4.
There are just a number of times where the GTVA could have done better and didn't, for the sake of good storytelling.
You've fallen into that awful, awful trap of trying to divorce storytelling devices from the way the setting actually works. They are one and the same. Ugh, this is going to take one of those Line By Line Takedown posts I hate so much.QuoteWell it's kind of obvious given that you're playing the UEF as a protagonist and thus, you can't give the GTVA complete tactical confidence in every situation otherwise you would never win.
I'll flat out call this wrong. The UEF and GTVA's strategic confidence play by the same rules, and the UEF has more tricks held back in the name of allowing the player to stay near the center of the gameplay space.QuoteThe omnipresent beam jamming, for example.
The 'omnipresent beam jamming' is a special-use tactic with a pretty dire strategic half-life and even in ideal conditions it works onscreen...twice? And not even in the same way on the same weapons.QuoteIt's a great storytelling element but in a direct fight, if you throw in the GTVA's dirty tricks department (Titan/Chimera alpha strikes, saturation SSM, destroyer advantage, point defense cruiser formations and Maxim bombardment) it all becomes seriously one sided. Those few tricks employed by the GTVA (Trebuchet strikes, mainly) are quite easily nullified by the enormous advantage of blocking beam cannon fire.
Those 'few tricks' employed by the GTVA? You see every one of the tricks you just listed employed in Act 1+2 alone, whether on the strategic or tactical level. When the UEF tries to convert its beam jamming technology into a second strategic victory it gets hammered into the floor because the GTVA figured it out and beat it.QuoteHowever, some of this critique (and to be fair it is very limited compared to other campaigns) is mollified by the methods employed by the GTVA in Act 3 and the fact that they are starting to shut down Paveway strikes in Act 4.
The critique is myopic and ignorant and doesn't hold up even in Act 1-2. The UEF is the only party guilty of holding back: solutions that could be solved by the UEF's existing arsenal are derogated in favor of giving the player something to do (with narrative and logical support, of course, we're not idiots, but -). The strategic realities of the war had to be carefully constructed so that the UEF's overwhelming bomber and gunship corps did not become a juggernaut which would roll over every mission concept and resolve most tensions with 'I kills it with a Durga'.QuoteThere are just a number of times where the GTVA could have done better and didn't, for the sake of good storytelling.
Find me one. If you can manage it, try to avoid finding just as many UEF situations.
Responding to this post was like an awful flashback to the worst days of this forum. It made me actively angry. I thought we'd moved past 'well these things only happen due to story convenience, ~realistically~ my power-gamed tactic would allow GTVA/UEF victory in 2.6 days'.
The way I see it there's a very assymetrical tactical schematic to the playing field. To the Erebus viewpoint, there is a kind of a goldilocks zone that spans between an enough far away zone, a zone where the Erebus's fighter escort can sucessfully shield it from direct missile spamming and gattlers are still not working efficiently against it, and a zone where its giant blue cannon cannot hit the Solaris. To the Solaris viewpoint, it's the exact reverse: there is a deadly zone where its weapons cannot penetrate the defenses of its adversary and is basically a "sitting duck" to Erebus' long range artillery.
There is both a tactical point to be made regarding possible electromagnetic countermeasures by the Solaris (deflecting Erebus' beams) and Erebus ability to conceal and heal its beam turrets. I will mostly regard those as nuances or annoyances to the general tactics, leaving them somewhat unchanged.
So the first thing the Erebus' CO wants to do is to get its fighter escort out as fast as they can in order to stop spam bombing by Solaris itself or its bomber wings. They will escort the destroyer very closely to it in order to benefit from its defensive turrets. The next thing is to get the Solaris in beam range. I don't recall if in 5 clicks it is already so. Nevertheless, whenever it is, the engines should focus on getting the Erebus always facing the Solaris and as far away as possible, so unless it can thrust itself backwards, it must stop. It should extend as far as possible the amount of time the Solaris is in beam range and out of Solaris' artillery range.
The Solaris must close this negative goldilock's zone as fast as possible, if it wants to engage and destroy the Erebus. Thus it must face the Erebus head on with a slight tilt (so it can shadow one lateral side from Erebus' beams as much as possible), giving the Erebus a very narrow sillouette to shoot to (and hopefully with the help of its EM shenanigans, not suffer too much from the beams). They will overheat their engines and try to get to close range fast. Their fighter and bomber wings are probably superior to the Erebus' ones, so they will try to shut down Erebus' primary weapon as fast as possible.
It's a matter of maths now. If the Solaris' wings can shut down the beam turrets (or at least force them to close down for repairs) without suffering too many losses, they will do so as fast as possible from the get go. If not, it should be more optimal to only do so when the Erebus is in range of the Solaris itself, so they can also be assisted by it against the Erebus' wings and turrets.
Nevertheless when the Solaris is close enough to the Erebus, the Erebus should start its own engines and try to minimize the amount of time it is very near to the Solaris. The Solaris will however be able to not let the Erebus escape. This tactical evaluation makes it clear that the lack of backward thrusters by the Erebus is a severe tactical disadvantage. They could, however, take hold of its own super subspace engines and when the ships are close it just jumps away 5, 8 clicks away again. This could prove a problem for the Solaris, that can jump once after the Erebus does to a very close range, but then in a minute or so the Erebus will be able to jump away again and it will be hell for the Solaris.
That latter tactic however is one that sacrifices its wings, who will become easy targets once they lack the Erebus' flaks, etc.
Also, I'm gonna give an optional variant: each side can tag team in 1 ship below destroyer size. Has to be a realistically available member of their order of battle. It comes with its air wing if it has one. What do they pick?
Mother****ing Diomedes. Air wing, covers a good portion of Erebus's broadside difficulties by having a fantastic broadside, decent point defense, and ludicrous anti-destroyer utility of having four SlashBlues to carve up subsystems like Thanksgiving turkey.
Would be wiped out by Uriels if they were concentrating on bombs, the fighter wing would need to be trebbing the numerically superior wing of the Solaris.