Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Inferno => Topic started by: The E on April 02, 2011, 03:56:56 am
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I've had it with your broken installer. Please remove the old INFR1 installers and the install instructions that tell people to put it in their main FS2 folder. It's ****ing annoying.
For reference, this: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=75426 is happening far too often for my tastes.
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(also all your infa downloads are borked)
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(also, gargant)
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(that too)
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(agreed)
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INFR1 is for FS2 Retail not SCP, so the install instructions are valid for that, if you do want it working on SCP it probably would need the SCP patch and additional fixes now, especially since it's not mediavp compatible.
You can get INFA here:
http://www.freespacemods.net/download.php?view.94
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INFR1 is for FS2 Retail not SCP, so the install instructions are valid for that, if you do want it working on SCP it probably would need the SCP patch and additional fixes now, especially since it's not mediavp compatible.
You can get INFA here:
http://www.freespacemods.net/download.php?view.94
That's not the bloody point.
A) Retail compatibility is complete and utter bull**** if it confuses FSO users.
B) I, personally, don't care about Inferno. What I do care about is people who, for whatever reason, follow your instructions and then end up with a ****ed up, non-working install.
C) You already HAVE a package that is FSO-compatible, the Installer downloads it by default. What's so hard about including a readme that says "If you want to use this with retail, you need to do this...." and deleting the other downloads? That would solve the issue quite nicely, I think.
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Retail Compatibility is all well and nice. Really, it is. Posting instructions for how to run the Mod in a Retail setting is all well and good.
But, aside from GoG users or folks that still have the original discs that haven't managed to find us already, they would do well in searching and finding INF into having it lead them to here and using the FSO Build.
Which then means they can use a bloody MOD dir and stop screwing things up when we try to support/troubleshoot everything else they play outside of INF.
So, make the "Retail Mode" a footnote somewhere and discourage this rampant persistence in screwing up good installs. Even FSPort doesn't jack over a good install this way.
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R1 hasn't been re-released since the SCP started, and like I said to make it mod folder and full mediavp compatible requires a total rebuild of the modpack now cause of the mediavps renaming all the retail maps.
The SCP patch was a quick workaround for old FSO builds, and is probably broken now anyway.
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I could play through R1 fine with a 3.6.13 nightly.
The problem is that if you install according to retail instructions and run another mod with SCP, there's gonna be a mess-up, which you may or may not be able to sort out.
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Why are the MediaVPs even in this discussion?
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Perhaps put up two sets of instructions, one for retail and one for SCP (with a link to the patch).
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Yeah, like that works SO well for the FSPort.
Look, guys, the way you are distributing the mod now is causing problems. You can fix them. Question is, will you? Or do you want to continue causing issues for users?
Let me be clear. The issue is not with the mod data. It is PURELY about how it is distributed to the end user. Fixing that is a different issue from fixing the mod itself.
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Like I said the patch was for 3.5.5 not for 3.6.12, it's not been updated since so there may be more debug errors to fix and all of our models will load the FS2 RETAIL textures while any none modified pof will load the MEDIAVP ones, this will look weird and we'd get loads of requests to fix it because people would be thinking the mod is broken. It's not as simple as shove new instructions on the website and hope for the best.
R1 was made before the source code was released, before mod directories were around, and before the recent mediavps change all the map names.
If you want to play R1 on SCP wait for the anniversary release, which as a standalone SCP based build will work straight after download.
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Let me be clear. The issue is not with the mod data. It is PURELY about how it is distributed to the end user. Fixing that is a different issue from fixing the mod itself.
I am not asking you to patch R1 up to current standards. I am asking you to make it impossible for people to accidentally **** up their working FSO installs by following your instructions and getting your downloads. Remember, the FSO installer ALREADY works just fine. It's the people who install INFR1 manually that have problems. Those are the ones you should take care about.
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Like I said the patch was for 3.5.5 not for 3.6.12, it's not been updated since so there may be more debug errors to fix and all of our models will load the FS2 RETAIL textures while any none modified pof will load the MEDIAVP ones, this will look weird and we'd get loads of requests to fix it because people would be thinking the mod is broken.
No, you won't get any requests, because you will make clear in your install instructions that INFR1 is an outdated mod that will look outdated whatever you do. That's what any sensible being would do.
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Look, guys, the way you are distributing the mod now is causing problems. You can fix them. Question is, will you? Or do you want to continue causing issues for users?
No because we'd have to do a complete bug hunt, map change and retest and then re-release to make sure its fully SCP ready and that would take weeks and right now we are a small team working on A COMPLETE REBUILD of the original R1. With a very short timeframe. We can't afford to waste time to 'fix' retail R1 for SCP when we're rebuilding it now anyway.
We've never supported R1 working on anything past 3.5.5 as that was the last time it was tested by the team. If someones redistributing it in some kind of 3.6.12 SCP installer then that's their responsibility to have it install into a mod directory
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No, you won't get any requests, because you will make clear in your install instructions that INFR1 is an outdated mod that will look outdated whatever you do. That's what any sensible being would do.
Then we'll get the 'why is it outdated?' 'why won't you fix it?' threads exactly like this one :)
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By offering it up for download, you are implicitly responsible for anything that goes wrong with it. Also, for the third time, you guys already HAVE a solution in place that avoids all these issues. The package that is downloaded by the FSO installer is already set up to play nice with FSO, as far as INFR1 is able to. However, the package that is distributed via your site isn't. The install instructions are still geared towards retail. I am sorry, but I have a hard time believing that changing a few links, maybe repackaging a download, is that hard.
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Like I said if we had to recompile that version we'd have to fix things up to standard, it would be silly to upload a new version just for a new readme when there's lots of things that have to be fixed like the maps.
I can take down the entire INFSCP site version if you like, that would be the quickest fix for our version, but I can't delete the links as that version was mirrored all over the place by other people so I can't fix those.
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I think it needs to be made clear that the SCP has no maps. FreeSpace Open is retail compatible. That is one of its main goals. If INFR1 is retail compatible, then it is also FSO compatible. If it is retail compatible and not FSO compatible, then that is an FSO bug.
The MediaVPs have maps. They break compatibility with mods that relied on specific resources in previous versions of the MVPs. They do not break compatibility with mods that do not use the MVPs. But INFR1 doesn't need to bother with the MVPs. It would take way more than MVP maps to make INFR1 look "up to standards."
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I think it needs to be made clear that the SCP has no maps. FreeSpace Open is retail compatible. That is one of its main goals. If INFR1 is retail compatible, then it is also FSO compatible. If it is retail compatible and not FSO compatible, then that is an FSO bug.
The Media VPs have maps. They break compatibility with mods that relied on specific resources in previous versions of the MVPs. They do not break compatibility with mods that do not use the MVPs. It would take way more than MVP maps to make INFR1 look "up to standards."
capital01-01a in retail is capital01-01 in the mediavps
so if one of our ships uses capital01-01a it loads from the retail VP while the mediavp models load capital01-01. When you view both ships together it looks terrible, so we'd have to edit all our models that use capital01-01a to use capital01-01 just to bring it up to decent standard. We'd have to do this for all capships except the EA and Ancient ones.
This is the mediavps fault not ours as they change that themselves, since anyone using SCP is going to run off the mediavps we have to make it conform to them which requires nearly everything to be editied.
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Well, maybe simply put a note that this mod doesn't use Mediavps and the installer is retail only (in big, honkin' letters).
Tell FSO users to use FSO installer (is it fixed already?).
As for "why you won't update it" requests, the answer is "we are working on it right now". INFR1U is exactly about bringing INFR1 up to standards.
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I think it needs to be made clear that the SCP has no maps. FreeSpace Open is retail compatible. That is one of its main goals. If INFR1 is retail compatible, then it is also FSO compatible. If it is retail compatible and not FSO compatible, then that is an FSO bug.
The Media VPs have maps. They break compatibility with mods that relied on specific resources in previous versions of the MVPs. They do not break compatibility with mods that do not use the MVPs. But INFR1 doesn't need to bother with the MVPs. It would take way more than MVP maps to make INFR1 look "up to standards."
Qent, the problem is that the INFR1 install instructions tell people to put the INF_main.vp in their main FS2 dir. This works in retail, but it WILL cause issues with every other FreeSpace campaign out there, including the retail campaign. That, my friend, is NOT an issue the SCP can or wants to fix, it's an issue with INFR1's install instructions.
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capital01-01a in retail is capital01-01 in the mediavps
so if one of our ships uses capital01-01a it loads from the retail VP while the mediavp models load capital01-01. When you view both ships together it looks terrible, so we'd have to edit all our models that use capital01-01a to use capital01-01 just to bring it up to decent standard. We'd have to do this for all capships except the EA and Ancient ones.
This is the mediavps fault not ours as they change that themselves, since anyone using SCP is going to run off the mediavps we have to make it conform to them which requires nearly everything to be editied.
No, it doesn't look that terrible. Maybe some people will post to complain, maybe not. Even if they do, "Help, it doesn't look right" is easier to deal with than "Help, FSO crashes and I don't even have any mods enabled."
No, anyone using FSO will not run off the MediaVPs unless you specifically provide a mod.ini that makes that the default. Since INFR1 is a retail campaign, there is no need to do that. If they decide to create the mod.ini themselves, then they know exactly what they are doing and the risks involved.
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Actually I just checked the SCP patch readme
The installer should of created a new folder named INFR1 in your root FS2 directory. The following files should be there:
INF_2Patch.vp - The main patch file
INFV15.txt - This file
The default commandline to run the mod (if the installation was not changed) is -mod INFR1
To successfully run Inferno using the -mod commandline, it is recommended to move INF_Main.vp or the multiple VP files into this directory as well.
It is recommended that you start a new pilot to avoid any crashes or errors.
So either people aren't reading that readme, or they have another version of the patch not produced by us.
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Or, they are using the unpatched versions. Those installers _still_ put the files in the main dir.
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Yeah, but since the download page says "Patch to allow R1 to work under the standard version of The Souce Code Project" then it's not my fault if they are not downloading that, reading the readme included and moving the INF mod to the right place. Without the patch it won't work if it was in the right place anyway.
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Okay, I don't know if you've noticed, but users, in general, are stupid. Handing them guns will result in them shooting themselves in the foot.
Why are you offering separate downloads for the main pack and the patch? It would be easier to just pack it up in one package, and include a readme saying "If you want to play this on retail, you need to do this:...".
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Without the patch it won't work if it was in the right place anyway.
And why is that? It would have to be a bug in either INR1 or FSO.
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Why are you offering separate downloads for the main pack and the patch? It would be easier to just pack it up in one package, and include a readme saying "If you want to play this on retail, you need to do this:...".
Because the main file is the original release version for RETAIL, like I said it was never rebuilt at any point, hence the install in root instructions in the readme. The SCP patch readme tells you to move it into the INFR1 folder that the patch installer creates inside the FS2 directory.
And why is that? It would have to be a bug in either INR1 or FSO.
R1 without the patch gives over 60 debug warnings, this is what the patch fixes. Without it FSOpen won't start, though the patch only fixes issues up to 3.5.5 so I'm not sure if any later parsing changes to make the debugger more sensitive would cause any more to show up.
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The issue is that the icons.tbl in INFR1 is malformed. I have no idea why this worked on retail, but fixing it for FSO would mean not doing as strict an error-checking as we are doing right now. IPAndrews wanted us to do the same thing when we told him to fix bugs that 3.6.9 didn't report, but that 3.6.10 screamed about.
Oh, and Qent, you seem to have misunderstood the SCP mission statement. The only guideline we have is that FreeSpace 2 will always run with retail data only. We do not and can not make guarantees for mods like Inferno.
Why are you offering separate downloads for the main pack and the patch? It would be easier to just pack it up in one package, and include a readme saying "If you want to play this on retail, you need to do this:...".
Because the main file is the original release version for RETAIL, like I said it was never rebuilt at any point, hence the install in root instructions in the readme. The SCP patch readme tells you to move it into the INFR1 folder that the patch installer creates inside the FS2 directory.
... I give up. I've explained this several times in this thread already. I have proposed a solution for this. You have still not given a reason why it's impossible for you to repackage the downloads so that it's impossible to get the INFR1 main release without also getting the patch.
And why is that? It would have to be a bug in either INR1 or FSO.
R1 without the patch gives over 60 debug warnings, this is what the patch fixes. Without it FSOpen won't start, though the patch only fixes issues up to 3.5.5 so I'm not sure if any later parsing changes to make the debugger more sensitive would cause any more to show up.
The only issues that are remaining with the patch in place are null MOI warnings on almost all capital ships.
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Like I said if we were going as far as to repackage it we'd have to fix the problems like the mediavp compatability and the MOI issues so that we don't get complaints about that version being broken still.
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So instead of distributing a version that is outdated, but doesn't hurt anyone, you want to distribute it in a way that is guaranteed to cause problems? Fine. Do as you like. Be aware that any further support issues caused by this will be immediately punted here. It's your mess, you clean it up.
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No like I said I can remove the links from the INFSCP page and so stop distributing it, but I'm not producing another version unless its brought up to standard. But of course I can't do anything about the 8 or so mirrors of it across the internet, since I didn't make those.
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Okay. I am sorry for any offense caused, but topics like these tend to get me blood boiling.
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Ok http://inferno.hard-light.net/ now gives you the option of directly going to INFR1U or INFAs sites, and I've removed the INFSCP-R1 page in case people had direct links to it.
I'll make a better navigation page later :nervous:
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We will take your points into consideration. As for now, please close this thread; it has outlived its usefulness.
Where's a good unicorn when you need one.