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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nemesis6 on April 09, 2011, 05:20:42 pm

Title: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Nemesis6 on April 09, 2011, 05:20:42 pm
Quote
Rep. Bill Dunn, R-Knoxville, said the bill’s intent is to promote “critical thinking” in science classrooms.

Critics contend it’s a shield to allow the teaching of evolution alternatives such as intelligent design and creationism.

Bill supporter Rep. Richard Floyd, R-Chattanooga, said that “since the late ‘50s, early ‘60s when we let the intellectual bullies hijack our education system, we’ve been on a slippery slope.”

“This is a common-sense bill,” Floyd said. “Thank you for bringing this bill to protect our teachers from the other intellectual bullies.”

Rep. Sheila Butt, R-Columbia, said when she was in high school, “we gave up Aqua Net hair spray” because of fears “it was causing global warming.”

“Since then scientists have said that maybe we shouldn’t have given up that aerosol can because that aerosol can was actually absorbing the Earth’s rays and keeping us from global warming.”

http://ncse.com/news/2011/04/tennessee-antievolution-bill-passes-house-006609

This is one of many anti-evolution, stealth-creationism/pro-quackery bills introduced by the American Taliban since 2011. Here are the nine total brought forth in 2011, including the one that was just passed.

"Intelligent design" legislation in Texas March 9th, 2011
http://ncse.com/news/2011/03/intelligent-design-legislation-texas-006531

Antievolution legislation in Florida March 7th, 2011
http://ncse.com/news/2011/03/antievolution-legislation-florida-006524

Second antievolution bill in Tennessee February 19th, 2011
http://ncse.com/news/2011/02/second-antievolution-bill-tennessee-006496

Antievolution legislation in Tennessee February 11th, 2011
http://ncse.com/news/2011/02/antievolution-legislation-tennessee-006485

Antievolution legislation in New Mexico February 2nd, 2011
http://ncse.com/news/2011/02/antievolution-legislation-new-mexico-006469

Second antievolution bill in Oklahoma January 20th, 2011
http://ncse.com/news/2011/01/second-antievolution-bill-oklahoma-006439

Antievolution legislation in Oklahoma January 19th, 2011
http://ncse.com/news/2011/01/antievolution-legislation-oklahoma-006438

Antievolution legislation in Missouri January 14th, 2011
http://ncse.com/news/2011/01/antievolution-legislation-missouri-006421

Antievolution legislation in Kentucky January 5th, 2011
http://ncse.com/news/2011/01/antievolution-legislation-kentucky-006389

For a fun little exercise, go to each of the links. They all contain a link to the proposed bill/legislation in html/pdf/rtf, whatever form. Now, search those documents for "critical". Most of them will turn up "critical thinking" and "critical analysis". Some extra ones are "strengths and weaknesses of evolution" and "academic freedom". There's a reason that they all contain stuff like this, and it's because they're all built on a framework called the "Wedge Strategy" laid out by the Discovery Institute, which details how, like a wedge, you start with the thin end, and then you can slowly work more, heavier stuff in. I don't understand this... America is supposed to have the first amendment, and yet stuff like this goes right through, even though teaching it(and its new name-variant "intelligent design") in schools has been shot down as unconstitutional by America's supreme court so many times, it just goes on and on with the lying and obfuscation. Liars for Christ as usual I guess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Shade on April 09, 2011, 05:48:35 pm
See, the problem is that when you look beneath the surface, the USA is two countries which have somehow managed to avoid war with each other since 1865 and now share the same federal government. There are parts of the US where the majority wants this sort of thing. You think that's stupid, but chances are you live in the 'other' country. Or in a foreign country, like me. Best solution is to let stupid people be stupid, and move to a different state if the stupid people happen to be in the majority in the one where you live. You can't fight this with the way politics work in the US. It sucks, but there you have it.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Mefustae on April 09, 2011, 05:49:42 pm
Quote
Bill supporter Rep. Richard Floyd, R-Chattanooga, said that “since the late ‘50s, early ‘60s when we let the intellectual bullies hijack our education system, we’ve been on a slippery slope.”

Intellectuals in charge of the education system...

OH NOES!
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Ravenholme on April 09, 2011, 06:04:25 pm
Quote
Bill supporter Rep. Richard Floyd, R-Chattanooga, said that “since the late ‘50s, early ‘60s when we let the intellectual bullies hijack our education system, we’ve been on a slippery slope.”

Intellectuals in charge of the education system...

OH NOES!

Who would've thought, huh? Not like that's the best place for them or anything, no sirree.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: rscaper1070 on April 09, 2011, 06:33:18 pm
Quote
Best solution is to let stupid people be stupid, and move to a different state if the stupid people happen to be in the majority in the one where you live.

This is a plan I usually subscribe to. Unfortunately if you get a large amount of ignorant people in a state such as Texas they pretty much dictate what gets printed in textbooks for the entire country.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: karajorma on April 09, 2011, 07:31:16 pm
Rep. Sheila Butt, R-Columbia, said when she was in high school, “we gave up Aqua Net hair spray” because of fears “it was causing global warming.”

“Since then scientists have said that maybe we shouldn’t have given up that aerosol can because that aerosol can was actually absorbing the Earth’s rays and keeping us from global warming.”

Ummmmm. When the **** did that happen?

1. We gave up CFC based aerosols because of damage to the ozone layer, not global warming
2. Who ever said that aerosols were preventing global warming?


Is this twat actually stupid enough to be confusing the effect of sulphur aerosols and other particular matter in the high atmosphere with deodorant? Cause if he is we should really spend more time pointing and laughing at that while pointing out that this is EXACTLY why he should leave the science to the scientists. He's obviously too dumb to understand it. 
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Bobboau on April 09, 2011, 09:31:44 pm
I don't understand this... America is supposed to have the first amendment, and yet stuff like this goes right through

how do you not understand it? you just explained how, the wedge.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Mikes on April 10, 2011, 02:23:18 am
Intellectuals are dying out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSROlfR7WTo (jk, yes i know the premise is flawed; great movie though)

See, the problem is that when you look beneath the surface, the USA is two countries which have somehow managed to avoid war with each other since 1865

In one of Richard K. Morgans sci-fi novels the US eventually split into an ultra corporate nation and a fundamentalist religion based nation - commonly referred to as "Jesusland".

Just saying the fracture you mention is certainly real enough to inspire good authors ;)
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Mustang19 on April 12, 2011, 11:08:42 am
Remind me why you unbanned me again mods. Are there ever any substantial topics discussed here at this liberal circle jerk?
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: The E on April 12, 2011, 11:37:02 am
Do you have something substantial (that is, factual) to contribute to the discussion, or are you just frustrated that reality has a liberal bias?
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Mustang19 on April 12, 2011, 11:38:50 am
The second one. However, I really don't understand the point of all these lets-bash-fundies type threads. It's not like anyone here needs to be convinced. Doesn't it get old?

edit: I edited before UT quoted me
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Unknown Target on April 12, 2011, 11:40:33 am
You're really preaching to the choir.

This is funny cuz it's true.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: General Battuta on April 12, 2011, 11:42:13 am
There are substantial threads in GenDisc. Look for them, post in them.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Unknown Target on April 12, 2011, 11:45:27 am
If by "substantial" you mean lots of people pointlessly pontificating about a party's imperfections, but not wanting to do anything (talk is useless after all (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=75573.msg1497090#msg1497090)), then yes, there is a lot of that on GenDisc.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: General Battuta on April 12, 2011, 11:47:37 am
The fact that people do not agree with your idealistic naivete is no reason for you to turn into a passive-aggressive sack of tears.

Go post in threads like this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=75415.0) if you're tired of political discussion.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Mars on April 12, 2011, 11:48:04 am
If you don't like GenDisc you don't have to post here?  :nervous: I try not to get involved in full out circle jerks, some variety of opinion is required to make things interesting.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Unknown Target on April 12, 2011, 11:50:01 am
The fact that people do not agree with your idealistic naivete is no reason for you to turn into a passive-aggressive sack of tears.

Go post in threads like this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=75415.0) if you're tired of political discussion.

Lol. <3
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Mustang19 on April 12, 2011, 11:55:09 am
There are substantial threads in GenDisc. Look for them, post in them.

Let's look at the front page. Fundie bashing, a dozen human interest stories, some piano player who even the OP said sucked, Toonami, some movie I will never bother to see, snakes and unicorns (what the heck were you guys doing for the past few weeks)... The GOP thread might be good but it somehow devolved into something about F-22s and their crucial importance to the budget deficit.

Don't make me start a thread about something or we'll be back to talking about Gitmo the homosexual agenda terrorism, socialism, or the fate of western civilization.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Unknown Target on April 12, 2011, 11:58:16 am
There are substantial threads in GenDisc. Look for them, post in them.

Let's look at the front page. Fundie bashing, a dozen human interest stories, some piano player who even the OP said sucked, Toonami, some movie I will never bother to see, snakes and unicorns (what the heck were you guys doing for the past few weeks)... The GOP thread might be good but it somehow devolved into something about F-22s and their crucial importance to the budget deficit.

Don't make me start a thread about something or we'll be back to talking about Gitmo the homosexual agenda terrorism, socialism, or the fate of western civilization.

Why not do it? There always needs to be a bit of rancor to test the establishment.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Mustang19 on April 12, 2011, 12:11:05 pm
There are substantial threads in GenDisc. Look for them, post in them.

Let's look at the front page. Fundie bashing, a dozen human interest stories, some piano player who even the OP said sucked, Toonami, some movie I will never bother to see, snakes and unicorns (what the heck were you guys doing for the past few weeks)... The GOP thread might be good but it somehow devolved into something about F-22s and their crucial importance to the budget deficit.

Don't make me start a thread about something or we'll be back to talking about Gitmo the homosexual agenda terrorism, socialism, or the fate of western civilization.

Why not do it? There always needs to be a bit of rancor to test the establishment.

The thing is that people here are ever so sensitive once you leave the realm of liberal mutual masturbation. The last time I tried to inject some rancor I got banned. But maybe if I start a thread about something a little less inflammatory we can have a decent debate.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: The E on April 12, 2011, 12:13:19 pm
If you take care to properly support your viewpoints with provable facts, good discussions can and will occur. If you choose resort to flaming and name-calling, then you'll lose.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Goober5000 on April 12, 2011, 12:20:44 pm
The thing is that the US public education system (which, surprise, is dominated by liberals) has so crippled people's ability to think for themselves that you rarely see any rational debate on the internet, especially forums.  Usually arguments on HLP end up devolving into competing arguments from authority, and more emphasis is placed on citing your sources than on articulating a cogent position.

The remedy is to read more.  Read the source texts (not commentaries on them) for both your side and your opponents' side.  Read enough that you can defend your position competently even if you forget half the stuff you read.

(this is not directed at The E; he just happened to post before I did)
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Shade on April 12, 2011, 12:25:01 pm
A fair number of HLPers weren't educated by the US public education system, though. Regardless of the reasons behind it though, your proposed remedy seems sound.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Bob-san on April 12, 2011, 12:27:37 pm
The thing is that the US public education system (which, surprise, is dominated by liberals) has so crippled people's ability to think for themselves that you rarely see any rational debate on the internet, especially forums.  Usually arguments on HLP end up devolving into competing arguments from authority, and more emphasis is placed on citing your sources than on articulating a cogent position.
Well there definitely is a problem with public education. High school hasn't significantly evolved in 80 years. It's not about learning; it's about keeping kids out of the workforce.

The tough part is people have different learning styles. Adding incentives to do well actually seem like a pretty damn good idea, especially if the incentive comes in the form of future college grants, scholarships, or entry into public jobs at a higher paygrade (including military). Make your past efforts in a mandatory system increase your success in the future.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: The E on April 12, 2011, 12:31:32 pm
I'd say there's a difference between arguing from authority, and finding and using references to support whatever viewpoint you have on the issue. For me, someone who has facts to back up whatever he or she is saying is definitely more believable than someone who just spouts some opinion made up on the spot.

So yeah.

The remedy is to read more.  Read the source texts (not commentaries on them) for both your side and your opponents' side.  Read enough that you can defend your position competently even if you forget half the stuff you read.

This. All the way.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Mustang19 on April 12, 2011, 12:34:32 pm
While we're on this US education system tangent, I'd like to point out that the apparent low test scores in the United States are due almost entirely to racial differences. White Americans do nearly as well as white Europeans on TIMSS.

http://www.asianweek.com/2008/12/24/odds-and-ends-alternative-energy-czar-2/

And I like Goob's post as well. The problem comes when you're arguing over topics where very little empirical evidence or useful models are available to prove any particular points (eg the Gitmo thing).
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Luis Dias on April 12, 2011, 02:10:25 pm
2. Who ever said that aerosols were preventing global warming?

The IPCC ?

:lol:

I'm with you brother. I just wanted to point that out. (Aerossols *are* a negative forcing in the atmosphere)
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Unknown Target on April 12, 2011, 02:12:22 pm
The thing is that the US public education system (which, surprise, is dominated by liberals) has so crippled people's ability to think for themselves that you rarely see any rational debate on the internet, especially forums.  Usually arguments on HLP end up devolving into competing arguments from authority, and more emphasis is placed on citing your sources than on articulating a cogent position.

The remedy is to read more.  Read the source texts (not commentaries on them) for both your side and your opponents' side.  Read enough that you can defend your position competently even if you forget half the stuff you read.

(this is not directed at The E; he just happened to post before I did)

Sound points regarding the nature of debate on this forum.

On the topic of the education system, that's personally my first target for reform. The current system does not encourage creative or different thought. You are meant to learn the material to get higher numbers which in our system somehow = better students/people/learners/thinkers. Obviously this is proving to be a fallacy, and what's worse, I think that most every kid in the US feels how BS the education system is, but they feel like they *have* to do it because that's how everyone before them did it. I don't think people realize how new a lot of our educational practices are, relatively speaking.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Nemesis6 on April 12, 2011, 02:14:54 pm
The second one. However, I really don't understand the point of all these lets-bash-fundies type threads. It's not like anyone here needs to be convinced. Doesn't it get old?

edit: I edited before UT quoted me

I posted this because this is important -- It's important to know that America's schools are actively being infiltrated in a palpable way by these people. You can dismiss the thread as circle-jerking, but the real value of this thread is in the actual readable documents. A lot of people know about this stuff, you know, the concept of Creationism and think that there's no way Creationism could make it into schools, not realizing that it already has, once again. That's what's so annoying about this debate - Creationism/ID keeps evolving, and so it's a game of whack-a-mole. But an important one.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Unknown Target on April 12, 2011, 02:17:41 pm
Our schools are being directed by people who think that teaching to the test is the best way to teach. I think that's a more pressing issue. The whole point of the current system is to increase numbers in every area - so whoever controls the tests controls what students "learn". Whether or not they believe it or think it's bull**** is up to the student, but whether or not they have a choice is up to whoever creates those tests and assigns the grades.

I know, personally, that I am tired of having almost no control over my life as an American student from the ages of 13/14 to 22/23 (high school to end of university).
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: General Battuta on April 12, 2011, 02:18:29 pm
The thing is that the US public education system (which, surprise, is dominated by liberals) has so crippled people's ability to think for themselves that you rarely see any rational debate on the internet, especially forums.  Usually arguments on HLP end up devolving into competing arguments from authority, and more emphasis is placed on citing your sources than on articulating a cogent position.

Goober5000, an exemplar on the construction of rational debates, speaks out on the value of hammering your **** into pretty shapes instead of using something other than ****
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Luis Dias on April 12, 2011, 02:19:25 pm
Yeah, it's kinda depressing, but for a greater perspective, I've been hearing these things for more than a decade, and the actual history of this situation goes back for more than a century. This is a very long war that is being fought. And despite all the problems and fears, we should not forget that at least, science is still winning. Of course, against creotard teachers teaching in creotard-funded schools, very little is doable really.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Mustang19 on April 12, 2011, 02:28:00 pm
Our schools are being directed by people who think that teaching to the test is the best way to teach. I think that's a more pressing issue. The whole point of the current system is to increase numbers in every area - so whoever controls the tests controls what students "learn". Whether or not they believe it or think it's bull**** is up to the student, but whether or not they have a choice is up to whoever creates those tests and assigns the grades.

I know, personally, that I am tired of having almost no control over my life as an American student from the ages of 13/14 to 22/23 (high school to end of university).

I sympathize, but at the same time I chose to be homeschooled pretty much for the reasons UT elucidated in this thread so I can't say I entirely understand. I believe the important thing is to tailor the curriculum to the abilities of different students. Tracking will never be tried again any time soon of course; it isn't politically correct, but it is only sensible. Believe it or not, there are a lot of students who don't have 115 IQs and who require more didactic supervision than you might have. Teaching-to-the-test is another problem. In Europe the establishment of curriculum and standards is centralized nationally whereas in the United States states and even school districts have greater latitude in how they do things. Having standardized grading metrics is a better way to compare student performance while actually teaching the material than standardized high stakes testing.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Unknown Target on April 12, 2011, 02:43:49 pm
I don't feel greater standardization of tests is the solution - look at England. They're the most tested country in the world, and I don't recall (and this would be a situation where I would ask someone else to cite a study if posible), that they're doing much better than anyone else.

I think a better solution would be to teach to projects. This is the approach that works well in art programs and universities; you give the students real projects to figure out - for instance, instead of telling a student to run through an ever increasing number of math problems every night, give them a three week long project to build and mathematically predict the performance of a small trebuchet or a water cannon or something.

One of the things I keep seeing pop up in the news is all the alarmist people going "oh my god, our students aren't interested in their work! what is going on!?". The reason most kids aren't interested is because the work is mind numbingly boring - it's not about learning, it's about rote memorization. Give students a chance to figure things out. On top of that, encourage group work - you can't possibly teach to every student's needs effectively, so bring the students together so that the ones who pick it up quicker can have an opportunity to help those that are farther behind. Get classrooms to be interactive, instead of just bubbles where students run through as many problems as they can memorize before they go home and forget it all. Encourage them to actually try and design crazy spaceships and hover boots - just because you don't think it's possible doesn't mean that the kids don't learn real things from the research that they do on the subject. I tried to design hover boots in 7th grade for a class project, and through research I learned about the properties of magnetism, the periodic table, and different properties of different elements. It was WAY more interesting than sitting in a classroom for two hours while the teacher repeated the same info over and over, made me do boring labs, and made me straight up memorize the whole table for a quiz which would go into my record and help to shape the rest of my entire life. :\

P.S. IQ numbers are misleading. I don't personally like to subscribe to them as a measure of intelligence.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Mikes on April 12, 2011, 02:53:12 pm
While we're on this US education system tangent, I'd like to point out that the apparent low test scores in the United States are due almost entirely to racial differences. White Americans do nearly as well as white Europeans on TIMSS.

http://www.asianweek.com/2008/12/24/odds-and-ends-alternative-energy-czar-2/

And I like Goob's post as well. The problem comes when you're arguing over topics where very little empirical evidence or useful models are available to prove any particular points (eg the Gitmo thing).

Let me guess, those white people who do so well also tend to have much more educated/richer parents on average ?

That would be my suspicion as a teacher anyways. Social background is hard to overcome - I'd say no matter how "good" you are... but that's not really true, as "being good" in school is as much a motivational issue as it is anything else and the effect of your upbringing on that motivation is indeed staggering.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Unknown Target on April 12, 2011, 02:54:50 pm
While we're on this US education system tangent, I'd like to point out that the apparent low test scores in the United States are due almost entirely to racial differences. White Americans do nearly as well as white Europeans on TIMSS.

http://www.asianweek.com/2008/12/24/odds-and-ends-alternative-energy-czar-2/

And I like Goob's post as well. The problem comes when you're arguing over topics where very little empirical evidence or useful models are available to prove any particular points (eg the Gitmo thing).

Let me guess, those white people who do so well also tend to have much more educated/richer parents on average ?

That would be my suspicion as a teacher anyways.

Probably. There's also an anti-education stigma in some black communities, though thankfully that's finally going away.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: General Battuta on April 12, 2011, 03:08:32 pm
You can have the best-educated black man in the world, and if you ask him to identify his race at the beginning of a test, his score's going to drop away from what you'd expect of a white guy at the same SEI.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Mikes on April 12, 2011, 03:09:07 pm
Probably. There's also an anti-education stigma in some black communities, though thankfully that's finally going away.

Well I'm teaching in Europe so i wouldn't really know about that.

What I do know is that when student gets ridiculed for his efforts in school by his own dad ala "Think you are better than me? / Why you bother with that crap? / The dole not good enough for you?" etc. then that kid is fighting a two front battle every day. And the amount of kids that have much more serious issues than "just" that at home is outright depressing.

Again, all personable experience, no hard data.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Grizzly on April 12, 2011, 03:18:06 pm
<removed because it was not really relevant>

EDIT:

Quote
I don't feel greater standardization of tests is the solution - look at England. They're the most tested country in the world, and I don't recall (and this would be a situation where I would ask someone else to cite a study if posible), that they're doing much better than anyone else.

I can't actually recall 'anyone else', aside from the USA, which does not have standardized tests...
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Unknown Target on April 12, 2011, 04:25:06 pm
<removed because it was not really relevant>

EDIT:

Quote
I don't feel greater standardization of tests is the solution - look at England. They're the most tested country in the world, and I don't recall (and this would be a situation where I would ask someone else to cite a study if posible), that they're doing much better than anyone else.

I can't actually recall 'anyone else', aside from the USA, which does not have standardized tests...

SATs/ACTs?

But when I said "anyone else" I was referring to both countries with and without standardized testing.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Mars on April 12, 2011, 07:16:37 pm
When I was in school I had Iowa Test of Basic Skills, Colorado Student Assessment Program tests, and ACTs.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Mikes on April 12, 2011, 07:40:25 pm
But when I said "anyone else" I was referring to both countries with and without standardized testing.

In general, standardized written tests as an instrument are facing mounting criticism since companies and universities started complaining that the people they get from school don't know how to do *crap* other than "puking out their knowledge onto a paper". Recent research also underlines the failures of an education that is streamlined to be successful at "written tests" and little else. Especially social and problem solving skills are usually underdevelopped to nonexistant.

An alternative is not in sight however ;)
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: sigtau on April 12, 2011, 07:45:21 pm
As a religious person, I gotta ask: what the **** happened to church and state?
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Mongoose on April 12, 2011, 07:53:47 pm
I'd agree with some of this talk of reforms, but I was the odd student out who did really well with rote memorization and hated working in groups, so I don't know how well it would have worked with me.  It might have helped to bring my critical thinking and creativity out of the ****ter, though. :p
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Bobboau on April 12, 2011, 08:55:34 pm
As a religious person, I gotta ask: what the **** happened to church and state?

I assume you mean the separation thereof?
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Polpolion on April 12, 2011, 11:20:34 pm
As a religious person, I gotta ask: what the **** happened to church and state?

I assume you mean the separation thereof?

It's funny because the question is still valid if he doesn't.   :p
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: Nemesis6 on April 13, 2011, 09:02:22 am
I think I can answer it -- The wall of separation between church and state is being eroded by the "Christian Nation" meme. I think that's the best explanation.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: The E on April 13, 2011, 04:04:51 pm
Discussion about whether race has an influence on intelligence has been split.
Title: Re: The GOP marches on - Stealth-creationism.
Post by: pecenipicek on April 13, 2011, 04:06:22 pm
On the topic of the education system, that's personally my first target for reform. The current system does not encourage creative or different thought. You are meant to learn the material to get higher numbers which in our system somehow = better students/people/learners/thinkers. Obviously this is proving to be a fallacy, and what's worse, I think that most every kid in the US feels how BS the education system is, but they feel like they *have* to do it because that's how everyone before them did it. I don't think people realize how new a lot of our educational practices are, relatively speaking.
Smarter, better educated people think more about their choices in life and are more likely to try and do things on their own, rather than listening to what someone says to them.
"Stupider" people are more likely to simply go along with what they're told and believe in happy stuff the goverment/religion of choice/the man/whatever tells them to do.

Guess which cathegory would be preferred by the goverment?











Spoiler:
I'm generalising a LOT here. But that doesnt really invalidate my point much.

Punting this back here, since its still relevant to the thread and i still want to hear UT's response to that.