Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Fineus on May 12, 2002, 06:56:28 am
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Simple one this - if you could base a Freespace FPS on any one game, what would it be?
Red Faction has its Geo-Mod, SOF/SOF2 it's ghoul engine. Unreal Tournament has a fantastic looking engine. Quake3 (or indeed the latest adjustment of it - Jedi Knight 2) has incredible graphics/frame rates.
Personally my money is on Jedi Knight 2, the graphics are already an example of the same style "universe" with corridors and so on. Imagining a Shivan ship is a little harder but it's perfectly possible.
So... what do you all think?
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Well the actual Freespace FPS project uses the Red Faction engine.
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I guess Quake 3 (Q3 :doh:, RTCW, MOHAA, JKII and more) engine would be good.
Maybe Jedi Knight II. At least the demo didn't have very good textures (full detail), but it looks very good otherwise. And the engine shouldn't even be too buggy because it's the Quake 3 engine.
Edit: While RF engine might not be very good, that Geo-Mod would be good. :nod:
Edit2: Not to forget Serious engine. It's very good, too. :nod:
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There have been questions asked about that though, because the Red Faction engine is not extensively supported, and because less people probably have it than would have Unreal Tournament 2003 etc.
Sandwich wanted them to use Renegade's engine, which can do indoor and outdoor stuff pretty easily. I'd go for UT 2003, to be honest because it's a massively flexible engine with top public and industry support. Plus, it's suddenly appealing to a massive market when it uses the engine of what is sure to be a best-seller... :nod:
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Renegade isnt that good a game though, graphically too. I guess the JKII engine would one of the best to use, you could give shivans force powers.
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I'd base it on Crystal Space or Ntrap personally - both have the kind of modular extensibilty that will be needed when openGL 2.0 and DirectX 9 hit us.
Oh yea - any of you who are going to buy a graphics card HOLD OFF until christmas.
the Matrox G1000 and 3Dlabs P10 will pretty much make fixed-state graphics cards obsolete overnight in my opinion, so dont get that Geforce4 just yet, mmkay? ;)
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K. I'll wait until the Geforce5 comes along.
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.....bah.
I could run down all the technical merits and disadvantages of geforce cards but it would bore the hell out of everyone.
Suffice to say - GeForce architecture was, is and will probably remain a cheap and nasty card for the masses. If compared to a car, it wouldn't be high-end, trust me. As a high end card you realise it just don't cut it and it sometimes really annoys me that people regard them as high end . They aren't, repeat, they just aren't that good.
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well IMO, FS can't be made into a FPS, what would you do? fight the T-V war? no one maneged to capture anything. boarding ships? thats easy . to make good missions with FPS you need traps and so, when boarding the ship is allready disabled so no traps.
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I'm not going to buy GF4 either, but wait for R300, or NV30. Matrox Parhelia sounds also very nice, and I guess it's coming very soon, because there is a flash animation in Matrox homepage (http://www.matrox.com) that says: coming May 14, 2002 (direct link (http://www.matrox.com/mga/home.htm)).
Originally posted by Zeronet
K. I'll wait until the Geforce5 comes along.
I guess it will not be Geforce 5. And it (NV30) should be a big improvement over Geforce 4. :nod:
Also, R300 seems to be very interesting, I guess Parhelia will be very expensive, of course R300 and NV30 can be too, though.
Edit: Ace Pace, I somewhat agree with you. :nod:
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Originally posted by Ace Pace
well IMO, FS can't be made into a FPS, what would you do? fight the T-V war? no one maneged to capture anything. boarding ships? thats easy . to make good missions with FPS you need traps and so, when boarding the ship is allready disabled so no traps.
Im sure the other Ace(he's on the Freespace:FPS team) would agree :p.
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Traps are crap. Halo was great and had next to no 'traps'. Bah. :no:
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Halo is the best FPS in existance and i only played it for 4mins on the XBOX at game to come to that concluesion.
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Originally posted by Zeronet
Renegade isnt that good a game though, graphically too. I guess the JKII engine would one of the best to use, you could give shivans force powers.
yeah, shivans with force powers :rolleyes:
Renegade is my choice. all the tools to do everything are done, you can make vehicles like in RF ( but much more fun to drive), maps can be huge, AI is better than the RF one -dudes will follow you on scales, will jump of roofs if you do so etc- You can simulate various environments. Only thing you can't do: you can't swim (ok, who want to try and swim with 80 Kg of weapons on his back? ). You can do your new characters and levels in Gmax, converter already released blablablablabla.
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Originally posted by Zeronet
Halo is the best FPS in existance and i only played it for 4mins on the XBOX at game to come to that concluesion.
Bah... pad...
I have also played Halo, but I have no conclusion.
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Originally posted by Zeronet
Halo is the best FPS in existance and i only played it for 4mins on the XBOX at game to come to that concluesion.
Yay! Zeronet and me can finally agree on something! ;)
I bought an XBox so I could play it, though... :devilidea
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Halo does look good - it's be pretty interesting to do a Freespace conversion for!
I think having read things though I'm in two minds now. The Jedi Knight 2 engine would be an excellent base, but then UT2003 does look even more impressive. However with no experience of the game first hand it's hard to say :)
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I would recommend using the Unreal Warfare engine, which UT2003 and U2 will both use. From what I have seen it looks simply astounding, and if it as powerful and extendable as the original Unreal engine was, it would make an ideal candidate. :)
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Originally posted by Kellan
Sandwich wanted them to use Renegade's engine, which can do indoor and outdoor stuff pretty easily.
I did? Heh - my memory is going. :)
Originally posted by Redfang
Edit2: Not to forget Serious engine. It's very good, too. :nod:
The Serious Engine would be best IMHO. Mainly because I know it could support modelling a fully articulate Shivan, bouncing off wals and ceiling. :D Plus, it looks great, runs great even with many enemies on-screen, and supports huge indoor-outdoor levels. Heck, it even has portals (think man-sized jump nodes. :D)!
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The Red Faction engine can do a damn site more then what Volition did. It's also easier to work with then Quake or any other FPS engine I've seen.
N-Trap is the only engine mentioned here that is "worthy" of FS:FPS other then RF ;)
Also, to AcePace:
What do supar-secret GTI shmucks do?
Don't think new weapons/flying an Apollo, think multi-level zero-G combat in the scaffolding of an Orion class destroyer being built...
Ace grumbles about how all Volition products allow for negative values in the tables, things like reverse geomod, frictionless surfaces, better lighting, etc. etc. which can't be done in other engines without serious coding...
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I'll say Triton, Monolith/LithTech's extended Jupiter engine. Tron2.0 looks hella good on Triton. :D
Personally, I know nothing about the Unreal engines. I'm completely against any Quake based engine though. They're gorgeous, but they have horrible kludges all over the place (witness the 'lean' in JK2) and seem to be OpenGL ONLY. I'm a fan of OpenGL and all, but I dislike a game that makes me disable two of my monitors to play it.
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Originally posted by Ace
The Red Faction engine can do a damn site more then what Volition did.
But still not as much as many engines that came out years before it. I'd reject it based solely on the lack of dynamic lightmaps.
I second the thumbs-up for the Serious Engine. Does about every modern graphic trick you can think of, and does it fast. Fantastic mod support, huge fan community, cheap, runs well on low-end systems.
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[size=16]GAHH! NO!!![/size]
Any attempts to mention a possible FS RPG will warrant yet larger text. You have been warned.
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Originally posted by Ace Pace
to make good missions with FPS you need traps and so, when boarding the ship is allready disabled so no traps.
Mind you that fighter-based disruptor fire doesn't disable the tenacity of the enemy crew or any handheld weapons they may have. This will become alarmingly clear pretty quickly when trying to take the mean ol' Zug transport midway through the FS:FPS campaign.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
[size=16]GAHH! NO!!![/size]
Any attempts to mention a possible FS RPG will warrant yet larger text. You have been warned.
bah, just use the GTA3 engin if it ever comes out for PC becasue Im evil :devilidea
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FreeSpace: Grand Theft Bomber
Not as catchy as I thought it would sound, and in most places in space you can't just step outside, walk about a bit, and shoot the pilot out of a passing Herc...
...But I'm sure we can get past the minor logical inconsistencies.
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As others have said, the Sam engine would also be very good. Either UW or SS; doesn't matter to me out of those two. ;)
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I don't know about the Serious engine... it is packed with tricks but I just didn't like the feel of it... it felt to old. Kinda like Unreal Tournament (in its original form) did. I know there's no basis for this really but it's just how it felt to me. Quake3 or UT2003 are much better examples of what I class as "modern" (hence selecting JK2 as my engine of choice)...
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runs well on low-end systems.
I'll support any engine that does this! The Quake/Wolfenstein engine looked good. No idea if it does all that one wants it to, but it seem to run well on my computer. Shame it took 5 (probably more) minutes to load the levels up...
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Originally posted by Thunder
I don't know about the Serious engine... it is packed with tricks but I just didn't like the feel of it... it felt to old.
Don't confuse the game with the engine. Plug in the right models and AI, and you could make the Serious engine feel like Thief, or UT, or NOLF, or anything you want.
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Mmm, there's a lot of truth to that. I've just yet to experience it :)
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Now that I think it more, I guess that Serious engine would be best at the moment. It's serious (yes, seriously) and good engine with lots of everything. Good FPS, nice graphics, lots of effects (not PS or VS but those aren't very used yet). Also, if you turn graphics to low, it will run fast, or if you turn them to high/max, it looks very good. :nod:
Unreal Warfare (or if it is that :p) could also be very good, but I guess it will take a while before the game is released, and I also guess that it's not going to run very well on slower computers...
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I wanted something similar to System Shock 2, but with Shivans instead of zombies. :D
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Originally posted by Ace
Also, to AcePace:
What do supar-secret GTI shmucks do?
i]
well I don't think they charge into a ship without the fighter cover , disabling it to death, emp no mater where, will destory their electronic dependent weapons.
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Lets use the doom engine...its nice!
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Originally posted by Red5
Lets use the doom engine...its nice!
can you say Doom 3 ?!
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Originally posted by Styxx
I wanted something similar to System Shock 2, but with Shivans instead of zombies. :D
Oh yes. Oh hell yes. This idea is poetic. It is sublime. I may weep.
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Originally posted by mikhael
Oh yes. Oh hell yes. This idea is poetic. It is sublime. I may weep.
:wtf: Aren't you taking your liking of a game a bit far?
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I'd reject it based solely on the lack of dynamic lightmaps.
I could retort that all other engines are rejected solely on the lack of Geo-Mod.
Dynamic lightmap problem has posed a non-issue, I've figured out ways of doing realtime lighting effects that look good and are dynamic. Similarly the geo-mod limit is a non-issue. Both needed some creative table tweaking on existing things *cough* gun shot glare for dynamic lights for instance, etc., but works well. It sounds crude, but as I've said before, Volition is very good at small bits of code that seems like minor things turning out to be able to be usable for big features.
Also on how FS:FPS plays out, I'm hoping there's a bit of an S-Shock feel. The last mission should really get the feel that you're all alone in the dark, helpless, and freedom of motion is an illusion. (similarly with all FS:FPS levels they're intended to give a feeling of freedom, but you're really doing what they want you to do... sort of like SS1)
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you do know that Styxx is on the FSFPS team
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Originally posted by Thunder
I don't know about the Serious engine... it is packed with tricks but I just didn't like the feel of it... it felt to old. Kinda like Unreal Tournament (in its original form) did. I know there's no basis for this really but it's just how it felt to me.
You did get to that part with the dynamic gravity, right? (hint: think magnetic boots in zero-g... ;7).
Which one did you play, first or second?
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Looks shy...
Demos for 1 and 2, neither of the full games (couldn't afford them at the time of release and more interesting things came along after each...)
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Originally posted by Thunder
Looks shy...
Demos for 1 and 2, neither of the full games (couldn't afford them at the time of release and more interesting things came along after each...)
*stares at Phund4r until the latter looks uncomfortable*
That's...... that's.... *sigh* We didn't yell at you enough back then, did we? Oh, well - all I can say is to go out, now, and pick up SS:SE. Now. :D
AS for the capabilities of the Serious engine, look at this list of tutorials (http://www.3dactionplanet.com/serioussam/tutorials.shtml) on the Planet Serious site - amazing stuff there - they even have a Matrix-cam! :)
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That's...... that's.... *sigh* We didn't yell at you enough back then, did we? Oh, well - all I can say is to go out, now, and pick up SS:SE. Now. :D
LOL :D :yes: :yes: I think DX is even better, though. ;)
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you can do some kind of geomod in renegade. Nothing as advanced as RF of course, but still it's possible if you don't overdo it ( building/destroyed building mesh (can be animated to see the building crumble, like in the city solo map ), wasn't used in the actual game for, her, unknown reasons.
Only difficult thing to do would be to animate a shivan, in renegade. the engine run fine, and it has good teamplay scripting, which I think is important, no?
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Originally posted by mikhael
Oh yes. Oh hell yes. This idea is poetic. It is sublime. I may weep.
By the way, you heard the "news"? The Shocklings figured out how to put new character models into the game... making a Shivan for Shock2 would rule. :D
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Originally posted by Kamikaze
:wtf: Aren't you taking your liking of a game a bit far?
You're sitting here on a Freespace themed community forum, active in Freespace themed community projects, discussing a Freespace themed First Person Shooter...
AND YOU'RE ASKING ME IF I TAKE MY LIKING OF A GAME A BIT FAR?
Pot, this is kettle. Kettle, meet pot. I think you'll be the bestest of friends.
:D
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Actually, I quite agree with mikhael on that point. The true fanatical gamers are all like this. :D
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Originally posted by Styxx
By the way, you heard the "news"? The Shocklings figured out how to put new character models into the game... making a Shivan for Shock2 would rule. :D
there's something blissful about the idea of coming around a corner to find the ripped apart bodies of your comrades, prompting you to stop and think twice about going through that door. There's something deeply scary that the creature on the other side might not be a rumbler or a psi-reaver, but a shivan sporting a shoulder mounted beam cannon.
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Originally posted by mikhael
there's something blissful about the idea of coming around a corner to find the ripped apart bodies of your comrades, prompting you to stop and think twice about going through that door. There's something deeply scary that the creature on the other side might not be a rumbler or a psi-reaver, but a shivan sporting a shoulder mounted beam cannon.
Eh, I don't think that "deeply scary" fully defines the situation... :D
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Originally posted by Styxx
Eh, I don't think that "deeply scary" fully defines the situation... :D
Is this the part where you radio back to Command and tell them that you're going to have to take 15 min of downtime to change your shorts? ;)
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Originally posted by Ace
I could retort that all other engines are rejected solely on the lack of Geo-Mod.
You could, but that would require thinking that geo-mod was anything more than a gimmick.
Real-time geometry modification will certainly get technically more advanced in the future, but it will NEVER EVER lead to "blow a hole in whatever and go wherever you want" type gameplay. There are two very simple and unassailable reasons for this:
1. Limited developer resources. It's tough enough to come up with all the architecture that the player is guaranteed to see, and still come in on schedule and under budget. Building vast sections that the player might never see is unthinkable.
2. Gameplay flow. An FPS is a controlled experience. Giving the player the freedom to blast anywhere is a guarantee to break arranged ambushes, scripted sequences, plot progression, etc.
So what's it good for? Eh... knocking shallow chunks in things (in which case it's just a 3D scorch mark), and allowing access to designated secret areas or shortcuts (which has been done for years with destructable wall segments).
Dynamic lightmaps, on the other hand, are a simple yet incredibly powerful mood-building tool. Look at System Shock 2... you can hardly walk a dozen steps in any direction without encountering a flickering or flashing light, and they contribute hugely to the game's atmosphere. As far as I'm concerned, dynamic lightmaps are right up there with stereo sound as bare-minimum engine features these days (and by "these days" I mean "since the release of Doom").