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Okay enough of us are watching this we might as well have a thread.
(http://i.imgur.com/qLMtF.gif)
here's my high content OP
spoilers for those who haven't watched it start here
I'm pretty sure Ned Stark is screwed, the Lannisters have suction with the king and the king isn't gonna back him up when he explicitly said do NOT antagonize Tywin Lannister and rein your wife in. But maybe Tyrion will get back to King's Landing in time to head off disaster?
I do not have any godly idea where the Dothraki storyline is going but I assume King Robert's hit on Danaerys is gonna go down soon. possible baby death yes/no?
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I've read the book after i saw the first episode, couldn't resist. Tyrion and Arya FOR THE WIN.
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book spoiler
Please no book spoilers. If it hasn't happened in the TV show, it hasn't happened yet. Please keep this discussion focussed on the TV Series. Thank you. -- The E
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Battuta, is that princess Leia in the background of your gif? I don't know what GoT is, so sorry for my stupid question ;)
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I think the Lannisters had the previous Hand of the King assassinated because he knew Joffrey wasn't the king's son and was instead his uncle's son due to the Queen being an incestuous whore. Something tells me the Lannisters will try to kill Ned Stark again because he's too close to the truth.
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I'd suggest that not only should there be no book spoilers, but no discussion of the books should be permitted, period. Every other forum I've seen that permits it, it gets out of hand.
So, book readers: No one cares that you read them. No one cares how they compare. No one cares that we ain't seen nothin' yet. Thanks :)
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No one cares that you read them.
But we do care that you don't! :P.
Honestly, they are very good.
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No one cares that you read them.
You're just jealous :P But as far as the series go, i'm really glad it is on HBO, because it has fairly good chance of NOT being cancelled, right? *cough*Sy-fy*cough*
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Personally I don't like the HBO series that much. It might be because I read the books 2 times over and I have my own ideas about what it should look like.
That's as much as I'll say about the books I promise.
eh, I have nothing much to say actually. I'll be gone from this thread then.
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This show has its ups and downs (the fourth episode was kind of awful) but so far it's a great adaptation. I'm impressed by both how faithful it is and how often the adjustments they've made have been for the better.
also,
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b183/Slimbrero/viserysgoldenthrone.jpg)
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Honestly, I shudder with the thought of how seeing that scene...
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I quite like the fencing master teaching the young Stark girl. He makes me laugh every time he's on screen. :D
Dead..
Dead..
Very Dead...
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I've been watching this show alongside Season 1 of The Wire and it creates the most peculiar dreams.
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Battuta, what I will post in my spoiler box is an episode 1 based book spoiler, it's just about one part of the adaptation I didn't like.
So, Drogo and Daenerys, I didn't like how the whole thing was implied to be somewhat more brutal than it was, as at the end [or beginning] of their wedding night she was actually willing to bed Drogo because he was surprisingly tender with her. They emphasised the brutal barbarian aspect too far in my opinion.
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Yeah, there are a number of weirdly misogynistic changes from the already kinda misogynistic books. I wish I could dug up the article that enumerated them well.
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Yeah, there are a number of weirdly misogynistic changes from the already kinda misogynistic books. I wish I could dug up the article that enumerated them well.
Yeah, I think that's my problem with the TV series and why I prefer the books (Which are a good read, if really quite misogynistic). Not to say that the series isn't good, it's rather excellent.
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I just stopped watching after the first episode. :lol:
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Misogyny is part and parcel of the setting. I'm not sure I would say that makes the books or the series misogynistic. Wouldn't the role and strength of the story's women be a better metric?
I don't think that change was necessarily a bad one, anyway. They didn't really have the time to play their relationship like the book did without it feeling contrived.
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I don't have any problem with misogynistic settings (hell, I like Scott Bakker), but friends I trust in the parsing of gender have described increasing discomfort with the books that speaks more to the narrative or the author than the setting.
I can see the argument for that change, but it's part of a pattern of alterations from the book to the series that make Cat look dumber or rob Daenerys of her agency - if I recall the list of changes right, she stood up to Viserys a lot more firmly in the book in scenes like his attack on her during the horde's transit through the grasslands.
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The only thing I find weird is that everyone is older than they should be. I mean, Bran is supposed to be 7, but looks at least 10, Joffre is also supposed to be 7, but in the show the kids look much older. Jon and Robb are supposed to be 14, they look at least 20. Though then again, since GoT has very different seasons then we do, with summer and winter lasting years, then maybe their years are longer than ours I just haven't picked up on that in the books yet.
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In the series they are older. They changed the ages for TV.
I don't have any problem with misogynistic settings (hell, I like Scott Bakker), but friends I trust in the parsing of gender have described increasing discomfort with the books that speaks more to the narrative or the author than the setting.
I can see the argument for that change, but it's part of a pattern of alterations from the book to the series that make Cat look dumber or rob Daenerys of her agency - if I recall the list of changes right, she stood up to Viserys a lot more firmly in the book in scenes like his attack on her during the horde's transit through the grasslands.
Hrm. I hadn't picked up on that. To be honest my first thought would be that those changes could be intended to create a more pronounced arc for Daenerys in the absence of her internal monologue, but I suppose we'll see.
I feel like Cersei is a counter-example. She's had several new scenes that add depth the first book never gave her. The frank discussion between her and Robert a couple of episodes ago being the main one.
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That scene was one of my absolute favorites and I was shocked to learn it wasn't in the book. It really added a lot to Cersei.
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For sure. I'm very glad the series has been willing to give the dialogue room to breathe.
I wonder how many of these alterations can be attributed to Martin. Many of them seem to have the events of future books in mind. Considering Martin apparently doesn't plan things out too far ahead, I'm beginning to wonder if he's using the series to quietly revise pieces of the story.
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*snip*
Joffrey is 11~13 at that time in the book I think. Also the first book doesn't focus on Cersei much.
I know... I broke my promise. Sue me. :P
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The only thing I find weird is that everyone is older than they should be. I mean, Bran is supposed to be 7, but looks at least 10, Joffre is also supposed to be 7, but in the show the kids look much older. Jon and Robb are supposed to be 14, they look at least 20. Though then again, since GoT has very different seasons then we do, with summer and winter lasting years, then maybe their years are longer than ours I just haven't picked up on that in the books yet.
They aged up the kids for legal reasons.
Considering Martin apparently doesn't plan things out too far ahead
What?
Yeah, there are a number of weirdly misogynistic changes from the already kinda misogynistic books. I wish I could dug up the article that enumerated them well.
I don't necessarily disagree, but the example being pointed to there was much more problematic in the book than it was in the series.
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What?
Sorry, that was vague - he seems to know the destination, certainly. But from interviews it sounds like he prefers to discover the rest as he writes. That's the sort of detail I'm referring to. Jaime is another example: the series has hinted at characterisation the books didn't touch upon until much later.
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Wife and I are watching this and really enjoying it. I'd heard of the books before, but never read them. Think I'm going to have to now =)
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There is only one word which can properly encapsulate the events of the most recent episode: pwnt.
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I got a question, who is your favorite character so far? So you won't get yelled at, go by the TV series...
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Ser Jorah Mormont. I don't know what it is, but I adore the guy. Dany is a close second.
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Tyrion Lannister.
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heh, Tyrion Lannister is awesome in any version.
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Tyrion Lannister and Arya Stark FOR THE WIN.
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I'm fond of Tyrion and Brandon.
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This series is just full of awesome characters.
Also, Ned Stark? He is sooooooo ****ed.
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The opening credits always make me think this damn series is set inside a Dyson sphere (http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/emot-v.gif)
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That opening is my favorite part. :P
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watching now, christ Tywin Lannister is a huge bamf
ed: so is this wilder woman
ed: you ****ing idiot Ned you haven't distributed the secret, you're the only one who knows, you need SECURITY
ed: okay now he has, at least littlefinger knows
ed: haahahahaha wow EVERYONE is going for this damn iron chair
ed: teehee, schlong
hahahahahahah ned is so ****ed
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GIF DUMP
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i448/GoTGifs/cersei.gif)
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i448/GoTGifs/joff.gif)
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i448/GoTGifs/jerk.gif)
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I've owned the first book in this series for a long time, but I never got around to reading it, I guess partially because I've heard it's all sorts of grimdark. Judging from this thread, though, I must be one of the only people here who doesn't get HBO. :p
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I've owned the first book in this series for a long time, but I never got around to reading it, I guess partially because I've heard it's all sorts of grimdark.
It's about a bunch of people forced to be dicks by necessity (or raised to be dicks, by necessity) dicking each other over, with a couple honorable people caught in the middle getting dicked from all sides, in a contest to be the king dick while the common people continue getting dicked.
Draw your own conclusions as to whether it's to your taste!
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The honorable people are also dicks.
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Jaime Lannister is the best dick and has pimp armor.
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GIF DUMP
(http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae11/turambarh/bdPVn.gif)
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I've owned the first book in this series for a long time, but I never got around to reading it, I guess partially because I've heard it's all sorts of grimdark.
It's about a bunch of people forced to be dicks by necessity (or raised to be dicks, by necessity) dicking each other over, with a couple honorable people caught in the middle getting dicked from all sides, in a contest to be the king dick while the common people continue getting dicked.
Draw your own conclusions as to whether it's to your taste!
Sounds like it's one mess of dickitude. I'm sure I'll get to it at some point, but I've fallen way behind on reading in general.
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Grimdark is the whole point I think. It's very obvious that it's not everyone's cup of tea. I'm not sure about the HBO series though.
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Grimdark is the whole point I think. It's very obvious that it's not everyone's cup of tea. I'm not sure about the HBO series though.
You haven't done anything wrong but because this can lead dangerous places, please open up a book thread to discuss the books just so nobody accidentally slips about something.
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Grimdark is the whole point I think. It's very obvious that it's not everyone's cup of tea. I'm not sure about the HBO series though.
I wouldn't call either of them grimdark. They can be depressing, but that's not the same thing.
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More like grimdick amirite
I'm sorry.
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Hahaha is it just me or is GURM not very good at writing for TV
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It's just you.
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Yeah maybe, I was kind of distracted. For some reason this episode wasn't very satisfying while watching it, but thinking back it was full of good stuff.
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Yeah, I was surprised to hear you thought so. I found the episode to be the most consistently strong so far.
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Although since we never saw anything happen to him on-screen I'm going to continue to believe that Syrio Florel beat the crap out of the guy and is still alive.
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Well,.... I wasn't expecting that ending.
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Poor guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOoA1OtcNjM) (do NOT click that link if you've not seen ep9)
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Although since we never saw anything happen to him on-screen I'm going to continue to believe that Syrio Florel beat the crap out of the guy and is still alive.
I agree and wholeheartedly support the notion.
What do we say to Death? Not TODAY.
Also, waiting for the damn thing to download. I'll get my grubby comments out when i watch the ep.
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Although since we never saw anything happen to him on-screen I'm going to continue to believe that Syrio Florel beat the crap out of the guy and is still alive.
I agree and wholeheartedly support the notion.
What do we say to Death? Not TODAY.
In fact, on rewatching you only hear the sound of swords and then something heavy and metallic hitting the floor. Like, say, a guy in armour getting owned by a duelling master. :p
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Although since we never saw anything happen to him on-screen I'm going to continue to believe that Syrio Florel beat the crap out of the guy and is still alive.
I agree and wholeheartedly support the notion.
What do we say to Death? Not TODAY.
In fact, on rewatching you only hear the sound of swords and then something heavy and metallic hitting the floor. Like, say, a guy in armour getting owned by a duelling master. :p
Let us truly hope that it is so :D
after watching this last episode... **** YOU JOFFREY, **** YOU.
LANNISTERS! MUST! DIE!
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Tyrian is far too entertaining to die. As for the rest, throw 'em off a cliff as far as I'm concerned :P
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LANNISTERS! MUST! DIE!
Completely agreed. Except for Tyrion. He is awesome.
And Joffrey really is as stupid as he looks. If he didn't have a war on his hands before, he definitely gets one now.
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Sorry bros, Tywin is scary, Jaime is handsome, Joffrey has good fashion sense and Cersei said THIS IS MADNESS, which makes the Lannisters the best family.
also there is Tyrion
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Tywin's subordinate: "Sir, we've analyzed the Stark boy's tactics and there is a chance he might succeed. We've prepared a horse for you."
Tywin: "Evacuate? At our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances!"
Can't help it. The man reminds me of Tarkin somethin' fierce :P
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Well he did win the battle...his battle.
He just didn't figure on Robb being cold-blooded enough to leave two thousand men to die as a distraction.
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Might want to spoilertag that for the folks who haven't seen the last ep yet.
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They probably shouldn't be in the thread :nervous:
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Well he did win the battle...his battle.
He just didn't figure on Robb being cold-blooded enough to leave two thousand men to die as a distraction.
Did he leave them to die? Wasn't it more of a diversion...
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And Joffrey really is as stupid as he looks. If he didn't have a war on his hands before, he definitely gets one now.
Assuming his future wife doesn't kill him herself. Really dumb move to make if he still plans on marrying her. :p
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So, Joffrey still has to die, Daenerys is holy****wtf scary all of a sudden, Tywin may need to die, but is way to scary to do so (Seriously, that guy brings coldbloodedness to a whole new level), and Tyrion is off to the Lion's den, as it were.
God I love this show.
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And Joffrey really is as stupid as he looks. If he didn't have a war on his hands before, he definitely gets one now.
Assuming his future wife doesn't kill him herself. Really dumb move to make if he still plans on marrying her. :p
And she's already given serious thought to pushing him to his death already. :p
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Welp it's gonna be a long wait for the next season.
Who knew a naked woman could be so intimidating?
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yo pycelle gimme some squats
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b183/Slimbrero/gotpycellesquats.gif)
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Yeah, that's how you keep fit in court :D
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That and (possibly) banging young hookers. :p
I do love the way the guy is making himself out to be much more infirm than he actually is for some unknown reason.
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So the other court spymasters won't see him as a threat. He clearly knows Roz is gonna report back to Littlefinger, possibly while having lesbian sex.
I've started reading the book, it's not very well written but I assume the story and characters are gonna carry it.
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Oh, I don't know. I remember the early chapters of A Game of Thrones being a bit painful, but mostly I find Martin's writing capable enough to be satisfying. It's got an odd sing-song sort of quality that's nice when he doesn't overdo it.
Which he seems to do at least once per chapter, but what can you do.
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I think it goes on throughout the series, too. But it's not so bad that I just stop. For me at least the story really helps it along.
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(http://tvmedia.ign.com/tv/image/article/117/1178494/game-of-thrones-20110623031126706.gif)
What did the five fingers say to the face? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYNeT2nzEgA)
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Oh, I don't know. I remember the early chapters of A Game of Thrones being a bit painful, but mostly I find Martin's writing capable enough to be satisfying. It's got an odd sing-song sort of quality that's nice when he doesn't overdo it.
Which he seems to do at least once per chapter, but what can you do.
I've been reading Cat Valente a lot, and before that someone else with exquisite poetic prose, so I have turned into a huge prose whore and sniff at every imperfect sentence. This is probably why.
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Oh, I don't know. I remember the early chapters of A Game of Thrones being a bit painful, but mostly I find Martin's writing capable enough to be satisfying. It's got an odd sing-song sort of quality that's nice when he doesn't overdo it.
Which he seems to do at least once per chapter, but what can you do.
I've been reading Cat Valente a lot, and before that someone else with exquisite poetic prose, so I have turned into a huge prose whore and sniff at every imperfect sentence. This is probably why.
Who was that "someone else" before Cat Valente? I'm always on the hunt for authors who love their sentences.
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I'm trying to remember, I think it was Richard Morgan (he is not as good as Valente but he has good prose with some nice noir cyberpunk stuff.)
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(http://tvmedia.ign.com/tv/image/article/117/1178494/game-of-thrones-20110623031126706.gif)
What did the five fingers say to the face? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYNeT2nzEgA)
What ep is that from? I don't remember seeing it.
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First or second, second I think - it's Tyrion slapping Joffrey for refusing to pay respects after Bran's accident, iirc
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That's one of the very first scenes of episode two. I love that bit so much. Makes me look forward to seeing how things are going to be in book two now with Tyrion's new job.
Well, I read the books so technically I do KNOW but Peter Dinkage and Jack Gleeson are so good I may as well have no foreknowledge at all!
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Yeah, remember it now. Watched that bit again a few times. :p
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Joffrey is the worst kind of punk. I just HATE how he falls apart when things don't go his way. "I'M TELLING MOTHER!!!" or when he starts crying after Nymeria bites him. And yet he talks so tough and will go to any length to torment someone. Ugh.
I know he's probably 13 or 14 tops but... man, I want him to die so freaking much. Sigh.
P.S. do you all recognize him as the kid from Batman Begins? (http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsG/58178-26622.gif)
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Batman begins was filmed that long ago? XD
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I've gotta admit that that youtube video is weirdly hypnotic. You can quite easily sit there for ages watching the exact same 3 slaps. :p
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(http://i.imgur.com/VKoKT.gif)
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*necrothreddage*
So, yeah. :D
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Get yerself caught up if you aren't. That's an order.
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I've never been so satisfied watching a show in my entire life
If there's one thing I've learned from Game of Thrones is that weddings are dangerous and you should not have them. Ever.
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Evidence suggests that weddings are only fatal if you either are or proclaim yourself to be a king. Or are in close proximity to either.
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Well that was far too quick. It should have been long and drawn out. :p
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Well, I might eventually be able to join you in this thread now. I fell off the bandwagon in the middle of Series 2 by forgetting to watch a couple of episodes and haven't been able to get back on it until now, when I decided to do another search for my missing episodes. I found S2E10 and S3E8, S3E10, S4E1 and S4E2, so my way ahead is clear now, I have everything I need to carry on from S2E10 right through to S4E2. All I need for a complete set is S2E4.
Meanwhile, I'll leave this video I made. The picture quality is poor, the footage I had wasn't good to begin with, and I had to shoot the monitor with my camera to get it through the copyrights. Spoilers from Series 1, I won't embed it due to the title. It's a video about Where Viserys is crowned, and Daenerys just stares off into space the whole time, and I show you what she might have been thinking. To be honest this would be more like what I was thinking when I was watching this for the first time rather than Daenerys. But Daenerys could well have been thinking this too. So we get to perhaps see what she was seeing when she was staring off into space.
The actor who played Viserys did a superb job of making me truly enjoy watching his demise due to his performance throughout the series. He deserves a lot of credit for that.
You reap what you sow. She already saved his worthless hide once when he had a whip wrapped around his neck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFZ8x-VxZjQ
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Ha ha ha. I've only just noticed noticed the dates! I wondered why there was so much discussion on old Game of Thrones! :lol:
Get yerself caught up if you aren't. That's an order.
Will do! :)
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Probably not actually a spoiler, but this is in relation to spoilered stuff Lorric mentioned, so it's under cover.
Did you know that Harry Lloyd, the actor who played Viserys, is Charles Dickens' great-great-grandson?
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Yeah, I'd say for sure that's no spoiler. An interesting little piece of information. :)
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I get the distinct impression now that The Targaryans of old had the same powers that the stark brothers have (a connection with their dragons as much as as the starks have a connection with their wolves. Both Dire Wolves and Dragons can not be tamed it is said). However, Daenerys seems to lack this power.
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True, nothing in the books or shows has really indicated that Daenerys can warg similar to the Stark children. On the other hand I haven't really seen any indications that warging was part of the Targaryen/Valarian methodology of Dragon control. Personally, riding on the back of a Dragon would not be my optimal time to have a out of body experience.
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secret wargaryens!!!!!
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I find it interesting how the few fantasy elements south of the Wall all seem to put emphasis on fire - there's Melisandre and her Lord of Light, R'hallor, and there's the Targaryen dragons. Meanwhile, north of the Wall, you have the ice/cold based White Walkers, who are slowly being built up to be THE threat to the realms of man.
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I find it interesting how the few fantasy elements south of the Wall all seem to put emphasis on fire - there's Melisandre and her Lord of Light, R'hallor, and there's the Targaryen dragons. Meanwhile, north of the Wall, you have the ice/cold based White Walkers, who are slowly being built up to be THE threat to the realms of man.
There's the drowned god south of the wall and whatever it is that doomed Valyria and is in the smoking sea.
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...because if there's one thing that Westeros really needs at this point it's Cthulhu.
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I find it interesting how the few fantasy elements south of the Wall all seem to put emphasis on fire - there's Melisandre and her Lord of Light, R'hallor, and there's the Targaryen dragons. Meanwhile, north of the Wall, you have the ice/cold based White Walkers, who are slowly being built up to be THE threat to the realms of man.
There's the drowned god south of the wall and whatever it is that doomed Valyria and is in the smoking sea.
The doom of Valyria is all about fire, anyway. It was very possibly just a series of volcanic eruptions.
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I find it interesting how the few fantasy elements south of the Wall all seem to put emphasis on fire - there's Melisandre and her Lord of Light, R'hallor, and there's the Targaryen dragons. Meanwhile, north of the Wall, you have the ice/cold based White Walkers, who are slowly being built up to be THE threat to the realms of man.
There's the drowned god south of the wall and whatever it is that doomed Valyria and is in the smoking sea.
From the books:
I formed the impression that the Guild of the Faceless Men were somehow involved with the Doom rather than it being the result of some Godzilla/Cthulhu scenario. Specifically I assumed there was some mix of industrial/geological/magic sabotage.
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I find it interesting how the few fantasy elements south of the Wall all seem to put emphasis on fire - there's Melisandre and her Lord of Light, R'hallor, and there's the Targaryen dragons. Meanwhile, north of the Wall, you have the ice/cold based White Walkers, who are slowly being built up to be THE threat to the realms of man.
There's the drowned god south of the wall and whatever it is that doomed Valyria and is in the smoking sea.
The doom of Valyria is all about fire, anyway. It was very possibly just a series of volcanic eruptions.
If it was about fire, it would imply there were more dragons in the world than the ones that the Targaryens brought.
It's heavily implied throughout the story, that the event was magical in nature.
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If it was about fire, it would imply there were more dragons in the world than the ones that the Targaryens brought.
Well of course. Remember where Dany got hers?
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If it was about fire, it would imply there were more dragons in the world than the ones that the Targaryens brought.
Well of course. Remember where Dany got hers?
The Valarian Dragons laired on the slopes of the Fourteen Fires, they were said to have been all killed in the Doom. The Targaryens retained their Dragons, and lives, because they had already left and occupied Dragonstone at the time of the Doom.
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The ability that some Targaryens have of surviving fire, also lends a hand to the claim that it wasn't fire that scared them away from Valyria.
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I find it interesting how the few fantasy elements south of the Wall all seem to put emphasis on fire - there's Melisandre and her Lord of Light, R'hallor, and there's the Targaryen dragons. Meanwhile, north of the Wall, you have the ice/cold based White Walkers, who are slowly being built up to be THE threat to the realms of man.
There's the drowned god south of the wall and whatever it is that doomed Valyria and is in the smoking sea.
The drowned god hasn't been shown to be anything more potent than a belief system, similar to the Seven.
Valyria's doom, on the other hand... I bet the Smoldering Sea is merely the nest of the REAL Mother of Dragons - the Uber-Dragoness. Dany will stumble upon her, ally/tame her, and together they'll wreak havoc single-handedly on those pretenders to the Iron Throne.
Mark my words, you heard it here first.
:nervous:
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The broad mythology (and, really, everything happening outside Westeros proper, as in Dorne up through ~Winterfell) is the least interesting part of this series, and I think GRRM probably wishes he'd never introduced it.
One nice side effect is that the most compelling parts of the story are brought to a reasonably satisfying conclusion at the end of Storm. ASOIAF has interesting things to say about political power, cyclical violence, short-sightedness and passion, and banal familiar things to say about absolute evil and dull fantasy prophecies.
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War of the Roses
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Choosing_the_Red_and_White_Roses.jpg)
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The broad mythology (and, really, everything happening outside Westeros proper, as in Dorne up through ~Winterfell) is the least interesting part of this series, and I think GRRM probably wishes he'd never introduced it.
What on earth makes you think that? It's pretty obvious from the supplementary material that he's released that GRRM has a big beardy hardon for dragons, and that the story is focussed largely on them. The whole plot (and for those who've nit read the books yet, this is still somewhat visible from the TV show already) is leading towards Dany bringing her dragons to Westeris. That's the endgame, it's clearly obvious. And the dragons are intimately tied up with the whole rest of the mythology, and the fire/ice symbolism that's rampant throughout the books. Even a cursory reading of the books makes it pretty obvious that, in the authors mind at least, the activities in westeros are mainly there as a context to drop the magic and (especially) the dragons into.
FWIW, I agree that the westerosi stuff is far more interesting than Dany wandering around in the desert, or much of the north of the wall stuff, or Arya's most recent adventures (in the books, she's still busy being awesome in the show). But I think it's pretty obvious that GRRM sees the magic and mythology as fundamental, not incidental, to his story.
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1 A Game of Thrones August 1996
2 A Clash of Kings February 1999
3 A Storm of Swords November 2000
4 A Feast for Crows November 2005
5 A Dance with Dragons July 2011
6 The Winds of Winter The Official Novelization of the Hit HBO TV Series
7 A Dream of Spring lol
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I disagree with your reading of the books too, but really those dates are all you need.
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Calling bull**** on the "Books take longer and therefore the author hates magic" argument. It's nonsensical - there are other factors that slow down creative work, as you of all people would know. It seems just as (if not more) likely that the books are taking longer because it gets harder and harder to stay motivated on a project he's been undertaking for over two decades now.
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Fortunately GRRM provides good evidence that his creative output in general hasn't waned, just his ability to focus on ASOIAF. I'd definitely agree that it's getting harder and harder for him to stay motivated, but I think it's because he's written all the material he can actually engage with and now he's left with checks he neither knows how to nor particularly cares to cash.
Consider your assertion that he's been working on the project for two decades, and then consider how much of that window was spent on the quality segments of the series that established it as something worth reading. It's not much.
As you said, I of all people understand what should slow down creative work - more so than you even realize, since I have a lot of insight into GRRM's creative process through mutual author acquaintances. And, indeed, I have a very good idea about what's slowing down creative work here.
e: I don't know where 'the author hates magic comes from' - seems orthogonal. Set it aside.
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The gurm is a self-avowed gardener and really I think he planted a bunch of stuff and then realized he didn't know how to feed it, let alone cook something tasty with it. So he just grabbed the lemons and made a lemoncake - which was delicious, even if it left everyone wanting more - and now he wants to take up cards (wild cards).
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Considering both this and Wheel of Time, I kind of wonder if my personal assertion that fantasy writers should stick to trilogies at the most really does hold some water...
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ASOIAF was originally outlined as a trilogy, oddly enough! As of the end of Book 5, we are somewhere between Books 1 and 2 of the original outline - all the material covered in Feast and Dance was supposed to happen offscreen between Books 1 and 2 of the original outline.
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Heh, interesting. Oddly enough I had GoT itself sitting on my shelf for years, but I never got around to reading it for whatever reason, and then the TV series wound up exploding in popularity, so my brother took it anyway. I should probably look into either one at some point.
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The books are good, but I really should have stuck with my "don't read a series until its finished" rule, because I'm seriously concerned that GRRM has checked out of ASOIAF in the novels. Book spoilers follow:
I think Batts has a pretty good summary here - it's been pretty clear all along that GRRM was telling a story of the political details while setting up a climatic battle at the end. Danerys has been quite obviously set up as the returning saviour to save civilization from the White Walkers. The rest has just been an immensely entertaining sideshow. The trouble is that the politics of Westeros as GRRM has written them are actually a great deal more interesting than the world-spanning plot, which has mostly occurred through allusion. The way the books are currently set up, with only two left to go, it's going to be one hell of a jarring transition to go from Westeros politics to OMG we're saving the world! ESPECIALLY as GRRM can't seem to stop ****ing adding new - and likely unimportant to the overall arc - characters. It's pretty clear that he's much more interested in the Westerosi politics now than in the arc he's setting up between the Targaryen forces and the north. Though I am also bloody curious about what the hell the deal is with Jon Snow - the boy is clearly important, yet last we left him it seems an awful lot like he might be getting offed. The man has written himself into a corner, and I fully expect that if he does finish the series it will be 8 or 9 books, not the 7 he's said are now planned. IF he finishes it. There are so many threads he has to tie together before the finale of the series, yet we're now finished with book 5 and he hasn't even started - book 5 ADDED new threads without closing any up. The man's outline must look like the hellspawn of an octopus, colosssal squid, and a millipede.
I quit on the TV series in season 2 after they ****ed with the plot - considerably - but now I'm thinking I should go back to it because I'm really thinking that GRRM is going to finish this saga on TV, and not in the books. Which is sad.
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The books are good, but I really should have stuck with my "don't read a series until its finished" rule, because I'm seriously concerned that GRRM has checked out of ASOIAF in the novels. Book spoilers follow:
I think Batts has a pretty good summary here - it's been pretty clear all along that GRRM was telling a story of the political details while setting up a climatic battle at the end. Danerys has been quite obviously set up as the returning saviour to save civilization from the White Walkers. The rest has just been an immensely entertaining sideshow. The trouble is that the politics of Westeros as GRRM has written them are actually a great deal more interesting than the world-spanning plot, which has mostly occurred through allusion. The way the books are currently set up, with only two left to go, it's going to be one hell of a jarring transition to go from Westeros politics to OMG we're saving the world! ESPECIALLY as GRRM can't seem to stop ****ing adding new - and likely unimportant to the overall arc - characters. It's pretty clear that he's much more interested in the Westerosi politics now than in the arc he's setting up between the Targaryen forces and the north. Though I am also bloody curious about what the hell the deal is with Jon Snow - the boy is clearly important, yet last we left him it seems an awful lot like he might be getting offed. The man has written himself into a corner, and I fully expect that if he does finish the series it will be 8 or 9 books, not the 7 he's said are now planned. IF he finishes it. There are so many threads he has to tie together before the finale of the series, yet we're now finished with book 5 and he hasn't even started - book 5 ADDED new threads without closing any up. The man's outline must look like the hellspawn of an octopus, colosssal squid, and a millipede.
I quit on the TV series in season 2 after they ****ed with the plot - considerably - but now I'm thinking I should go back to it because I'm really thinking that GRRM is going to finish this saga on TV, and not in the books. Which is sad.
:yes:
Yeah I also really feel that even just resolving the whole White Walkers/Winter arc seems a rather steep task to flesh out in only two more books. The last two really have suffered from the "Meanwhile in Dorne" syndrome rather than ringing up to flank on the main plot.
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I don't really think there's necessarily -or even likely- any substantial problem with wrapping everything up in two large books. Look at how much stuff happens from the beginning of GoT to the end of CoK, for instance, and how much actual time they cover. Also, as we know, plotlines of individual characters can end or change in all sorts of sudden and unexpected ways. And you only need like 2 chapters for a single character to get across half the world.
Also, I find MP-Ryan's prediction of what things have really been set up for way too straightforward. It's certainly possible that that's what the end will boil down to, but I really doubt it. It would be really predictable whereas the major plot points so far have been much less so.
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That's because very little of the macroplot has actually happened so far. The arcs of 'secondary' characters involved in the War of the Five Kings -- your Robbs, your Jaimes -- have had shocking and unexpected trajectories. But Jon and Dany, the protagonists of the core plot of the series, haven't deviated that far from normal fantasy fare.
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I guess so. But still, I wouldn't bet money on what the macroplot actually is... except that having core characters X, Y and Z team up to fight the big bad to save the world and win the throne in a three-arc structure sounds pretty unlikely to me. It might happen, with a few twists naturally, or the story can take a turn to a completely different direction.
Also, when very little of the supposed macroplot has happened so far, how do you know it is the macroplot? I don't think I'd be disappointed if, pardon the simplification, the climax of the series wasn't going to be an epic battle of humans with dragons versus evil ice zombies that want to kill everything. Things might have been building towards something else, as well.
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That's because very little of the macroplot has actually happened so far. The arcs of 'secondary' characters involved in the War of the Five Kings -- your Robbs, your Jaimes -- have had shocking and unexpected trajectories. But Jon and Dany, the protagonists of the core plot of the series, haven't deviated that far from normal fantasy fare.
Well, except for getting stabbed
and ****ting a lot right back where she started
. I think GRRM often decides to do the opposite of what's predictable just to be ~subversive~ but then he has no idea how to follow up. (seriously big spoilers in here)
I'm with zookeeper in that I think a more satisfying resolution to the series might be setting up the status quo for a new conflict, in much the same way that Robert's Rebellion set up the status quo for the events of the current books. The cycle don't stop (unless winter hits and everyone dies I guess)
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I find it interesting how the few fantasy elements south of the Wall all seem to put emphasis on fire - there's Melisandre and her Lord of Light, R'hallor, and there's the Targaryen dragons. Meanwhile, north of the Wall, you have the ice/cold based White Walkers, who are slowly being built up to be THE threat to the realms of man.
There's the drowned god south of the wall and whatever it is that doomed Valyria and is in the smoking sea.
The drowned god hasn't been shown to be anything more potent than a belief system, similar to the Seven.
Valyria's doom, on the other hand... I bet the Smoldering Sea is merely the nest of the REAL Mother of Dragons - the Uber-Dragoness. Dany will stumble upon her, ally/tame her, and together they'll wreak havoc single-handedly on those pretenders to the Iron Throne.
Mark my words, you heard it here first.
:nervous:
Have you read the books?
Because Damphair seems makes his case for the drowned god as good as Melisandre makes for the lord of light. Since the beginning of the first book, magic seems to be returning to the world, and with it, every myth seems to be becoming true.
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The drowned god hasn't been shown to be anything more potent than a belief system, similar to the Seven.
Valyria's doom, on the other hand... I bet the Smoldering Sea is merely the nest of the REAL Mother of Dragons - the Uber-Dragoness. Dany will stumble upon her, ally/tame her, and together they'll wreak havoc single-handedly on those pretenders to the Iron Throne.
Have you read the books?
Because Damphair seems makes his case for the drowned god as good as Melisandre makes for the lord of light. Since the beginning of the first book, magic seems to be returning to the world, and with it, every myth seems to be becoming true.
I have indeed read them.
I don't recall Damphair accomplishing anything fantastical or magical - just some mouth-to-mouth resuscitation on folk he drowned.
I admit though it's quite possible I'm forgetting something... care to enlighten me?
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Hrmmm. Much as GRRM might be setting up a new status quo, I see a few issues...
For one, he has spent a considerable amount of time, when not killing off characters in the political machinations, building up the mythos in four key areas:
1. The North (Ice) - The White Walkers and zombies clearly have a lengthy history which much time has been spent setting them up as the unseen menace for which Westeros had better get its **** together. It would be a very strange conclusion indeed if the books concluded without addressing that part of the story in the slightest.
2. The Targaryens and the Dragons - The primary matter of tangible 'Fire' we see in the books, while Daenerys is set up as a political figure, she's also being created as a mythological one. Moreover, we now actually have the trifecta of Targaryens like those of old - Daenerys, Aegon, and Jon Snow (because I'm bloody positive at this point that Snow is the lovechild of Lyanna and Rhaegar, though GRRM may twist that just to screw with us), repeating the old cycle of the Targaryens come to save Westeros.
3. The Lord of Light - Melisandre and her Lord of Light appear to be on a collision course with Jon Snow, making me see her linked up to the Targaryen forces in the not distant future.
4. The Drowned God - Again, there are links forming between those following the Drowned God and the Targaryen forces that allude toward a role in a greater world-altering battle.
I think GRRM has passed the point of no return on effectively resolving matters in Westeros to set up a status quo to face the final threat. He has spent far too much time world-building and hinting to leave it unresolved and still craft a meaningful and satisfying conclusion to the series. There are too many connections and long-term machinations to simply leave it without addressing the conflict of ice and fire, and to do that justice I suspect is either going to require at least 3 more books, or two very, very long ones.
Like I said before, I think GRRM has written himself into a corner. There is hope, however; if GRRM's health does fail before the completion of the series, Brandon Sanderson has already admirably demonstrated that he can finish someone else's series just as well (and possibly better) than the original author :p
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My read also is Jon Snow is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child, possibly the Prince who was Promised. Considering the amount of foundation that his been laid, it would be quite a significant rug pull if not. Though I have a pet theory that much of what's happened, or at least the operations carried out by Lord Varys, Illyrio Mopatis, and Connington are possibly a plan laid down by Rhaegar. Much of my evidence is circumstantial, such as piecing together the musings of Selmy and others, but I get the feeling he might have been the kind of magnificent bastard to see through the destruction of himself and his house to secure humanities' eventual victory against the Others.
I'm also curious how the Guild of Faceless Men factor in as well. Besides training Arya to be a murder machine, i think its implied that they had a hand in The Doom of Valaria and have infiltrated the Maesters.
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The drowned god hasn't been shown to be anything more potent than a belief system, similar to the Seven.
Valyria's doom, on the other hand... I bet the Smoldering Sea is merely the nest of the REAL Mother of Dragons - the Uber-Dragoness. Dany will stumble upon her, ally/tame her, and together they'll wreak havoc single-handedly on those pretenders to the Iron Throne.
Have you read the books?
Because Damphair seems makes his case for the drowned god as good as Melisandre makes for the lord of light. Since the beginning of the first book, magic seems to be returning to the world, and with it, every myth seems to be becoming true.
I have indeed read them.
I don't recall Damphair accomplishing anything fantastical or magical - just some mouth-to-mouth resuscitation on folk he drowned.
I admit though it's quite possible I'm forgetting something... care to enlighten me?
For one, he drinks only sea water, the resuscitation described that he uses on those he drowns doesn't seem to be CPR and seems similar to the way Thoros resuscitates Beric, and also the fact that it is implied that he can resuscitate himself after drowning.
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He also has a flawless record in a world in which flawlessness does not exist
.