Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mustang19 on June 14, 2011, 06:14:21 pm
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This has been going on for a few days now. None of you bozos posted about it!
http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFTRE75D0ZM20110614
ZENGCHENG, China (Reuters) - Chinese riot police brought a semblance of calm to the riot-torn southern Chinese city of Zengcheng on Tuesday, but the anger of migrant workers at being discriminated against by the authorities remained palpable in this key export hub.
In the wake of the latest protests, a state think-tank warned that China's tens of millions of workers pouring into cities from the countryside would become a serious threat to stability unless they were treated more fairly.
This isn't really anything new. China's been having these problems for years. What's special this time is that it's not just ethnic riots, a lot of Han Chinese in the relatively well off coastal regions are joining in.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/breakingnews/security-reported-tight-in-riot-torn-south-china-city-as-unofficial-curfew-imposed.html
BEIJING, China - Security forces patrolled the streets and manned roadblocks Tuesday in a southern Chinese city where rioting factory workers attacked police stations and torched vehicles over the weekend, residents said.
No major incidents have been reported since Sunday in Xintang in the southern manufacturing hub of Guangdong province, where tens of thousands of migrant workers enraged by the reported beating of a street vendor turned on authorities.
While violent protests in China have become frequent over the past decade, recent weeks have seemed particularly turbulent. The vast region of Inner Mongolia last month saw its biggest street demonstrations in two decades, while a man angry over land seizures set off three homemade bombs at government buildings in another southern city, killing three people and wounding at least nine others.
I give the Chinese Communist Party two decades left, tops. You guys had a good run. But the whole iron fisted rule thing doesn't seem to be working out in the end.
Edited with the first link so it's actually relevant.
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I have actually heard nothing about this.
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Google news says nothing
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The first report you linked is a 2009
The second one is current and very depressing, but a theme well known to the point that it is sadly not news worthy unless a slow news day or martial law is declared and the locals are defying curfew. the Chines government is very apt at suppressing news information not only within it's own borders but what flows out as well so the best you get are unconfirmed reports of X, Y, Z :(
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I'm kinda surprised that no big new media has anything on this. Then again, I'm not sure if I should be.
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The first report you linked is a 2009
The second one is current and very depressing, but a theme well known to the point that it is sadly not news worthy unless a slow news day or martial law is declared and the locals are defying curfew. the Chines government is very apt at suppressing news information not only within it's own borders but what flows out as well so the best you get are unconfirmed reports of X, Y, Z :(
Indeed. I just got a little ahead of myself there. It's front page news on the WSJ.
Google news says nothing
Yeaaaa, well that's Google for you. They have to get their stuff screened before showing it in China, right?
I have actually heard nothing about this.
Don't feel left out. This isn't really news. Some guy named Wiener showing his dick is. Bombings and riots in China aren't.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-13/china-cracks-down-in-wake-of-riots-bombings.html
Here's Bloomberg from yesterday.
Officials in central China’s Hubei province were suspended or detained after protests last week sparked by the death of a local councilman, reflecting rising public anger at abuse of power and a widening income gap.
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Armored cars were used to quell protests on June 9 that were sparked by Ran’s death, with people throwing bottles and eggs as they clashed with police, the AP reported, citing local witnesses. Riots, strikes and protests are on the rise as inequality grows and people lash out at corrupt local governments seeking to generate income by selling homes and farms to real-estate developers at a profit.
Seems like largely migrant workers. I don't know how many locals are actually participating.
Unfortunately we'll have to rely on the Guardian for more information.
Rioters burned police and fire vehicles in a third day of unrest in southern China's manufacturing heartlands, witnesses have reported.
Hong Kong broadcasters reported that armed police fired teargas as they sought to disperse the crowd and detained at least a dozen demonstrators.
The clashes, which began on Friday after a fracas between security officers and a pregnant street vendor in Xintang, Guangdong province, highlight Chinese authorities' struggle to control social frustrations. It is thought that most protesters were migrant workers like the vendor.
Well I'll be waiting to see if anything happens.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/13/china-riots-enter-third-day
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Don't remind me about the media stroking their Weiners.
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hmm, eastern China... interesting...
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Don't remind me about the media stroking their Weiners.
I have finally and truly given up on TV news because of its inability to cover anything other than that.
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I give the Chinese Communist Party two decades left, tops. You guys had a good run. But the whole iron fisted rule thing doesn't seem to be working out in the end.
That's what was said 30 years ago, and it's still here. Personally I find this guy's views (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/MA29Ad04.html) to be pretty accurate.
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People assume China is stable because it's lasted. That's not actually a measure of governmental stability, merely that they haven't faced a crisis yet.
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People assume China is stable because it's lasted. That's not actually a measure of governmental stability, merely that they haven't faced a crisis yet.
And people assume it will collapse any minute because they constantly underestimate the public's overall willingness to bend over and take it up the ass. In a university library if a room is cold and there is a room heater that hasn't been turned on, will one of them walk over and turn it on? The answer is almost always no. In addition people keep pointing to "a thirst for freedom" or "desire for democracy" that doesn't exist. There are some fleeting moments, but those quickly disappear when they realize they actually have to work for it instead of it being handed to them. That's the kind of people you're dealing with, and these small time riots and demonstrations do not reflect on the overwhelming majority of people.
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And people assume it will collapse any minute because they constantly underestimate the public's overall willingness to bend over and take it up the ass. In a university library if a room is cold and there is a room heater that hasn't been turned on, will one of them walk over and turn it on? The answer is almost always no. In addition people keep pointing to "a thirst for freedom" or "desire for democracy" that doesn't exist. There are some fleeting moments, but those quickly disappear when they realize they actually have to work for it instead of it being handed to them. That's the kind of people you're dealing with, and these small time riots and demonstrations do not reflect on the overwhelming majority of people.
You realize how insulting this is for the people who sit in prison (or worse) for no other reason than expressing their views?
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You realize how insulting this is for the people who sit in prison (or worse) for no other reason than expressing their views?
Reality sucks like that.
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You realize how insulting this is for the people who sit in prison (or worse) for no other reason than expressing their views?
Reality sucks like that.
So.... it is ok for a government to suppress views that run counter to the government's. That people have their ability to communicate scrutinised and suppressed when they mention concepts like democracy and religion. It is ok that if a person decides to try and bypass that censorship to express their view they most likely will be arrested and imprisoned just for doing so?
I agree there are time when such censorship is a necessity, for example to ensure military and Intelligence personnel to spread information on that is nationally or operationally sensitive, but we are not talking about that, we are talking about people being suppressed just for wanting to be treated fairly and to have a meaningful say in how things are run in their country.
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So.... it is ok for a government to suppress views that run counter to the government's. That people have their ability to communicate scrutinised and suppressed when they mention concepts like democracy and religion. It is ok that if a person decides to try and bypass that censorship to express their view they most likely will be arrested and imprisoned just for doing so?
Show me where I said any of that was ok.
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You realize how insulting this is for the people who sit in prison (or worse) for no other reason than expressing their views?
Reality sucks like that.
To me the implication is - Reality sucks like that, get used to it.
And in your previous post you say that the people there arn't doing anything about it because they are willing to take it, when there are plenty of vocal people who want to change things but they cant because the government locks them in political black holes unable to communicate as soon as they get to vocal which means the people rarely have anyone to rally behind, and to get a population to make a stand against a regime which has no issue with hitting you with a stick until you say i wont do it again, or run you over with a tank you need focal points, people to rally the public. How can the people be rallied if the individuals capable to doing so are unable to say anything?
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when there are plenty of vocal people who want to change things but they cant because the government locks them in political black holes unable to communicate as soon as they get to vocal which means the people rarely have anyone to rally behind,
No, there aren't plenty of people. China has a population of 1.3 billion, are a few thousand really going to make a difference? All but a handful of those 1.3 billion do not care one bit about "human rights" or anything like that. They really don't. Their view of the world is extremely materialistic, they put financial well being and status quo above all else.
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China is highly unlikely to remain a dictatorship that much longer. Considering that virtually every other industrialized country dictatorship (including Singapore) has or currently is transitioning to democracy, that would be unusual. Especially since the more successful soft authoritarian model countries generally managed to avoid ethnic conflict, huge inequality or large scale violence.
And I would genuinely regret the passing of the Chinese Communist Party since they've doing a great job developing the country into a major industrial power.
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Considering that virtually every other industrialized country dictatorship (including Singapore) has or currently is transitioning to democracy
huh
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Well Singapore isn't formally transitioning yet. But they recently held a parliamentary election with 90+% of the seats contested.
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This looks like the next boom that's supposed to sustain the world after the US is done is in danger of imploding. Honestly there's been waves of protests in China for awhile now that haven't been getting a lot of attention.
I also have not heard anything about it on the news. There's an article on the Yahoo headlines right now "Chinese travel to U.S. to give birth for citizenship" - but that's the only thing about China.
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It's not going to all happen at once UT. Nothing going on is big enough to overthrow the government. The unrest probably has something do with the relatively high inflation in China right now, but the government is working it back down. And this is mostly a matter of minorities and migrant workers airing grievances rather than a broad based social revolt or anything.
The bigger problem as far as China's economy is concerned is the bursting of it's real estate bubble among other economic transitions it's undergoing as its trade surplus falls. Although again the government has done a lot to avert a total disaster there's still the possibility that the economy could go into recession in a year or two - a "hard landing" scenario.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/13/us-roubini-idUSTRE75C1OF20110613
China avoided a hard landing during the global credit crunch but faces a downturn after 2013 as it will struggle to keep increasing fixed investments, Roubini said.
"There is a meaningful probability of a hard landing in China after 2013," he told a financial conference in Singapore.
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Maybe there's a chinese exception. You know, just like some Americans insist there's an american one.
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China is probably doing some transitions, but whatever they are doing, they are doing it Slloooowwwllyyy as not to cause too much instability on the road to more stability.
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I agree. Just about anyone who posted in this thread would make a great CNN commentator. Keep up the intellectual standard, HLP.
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I agree. Just about anyone who posted in this thread would make a great CNN commentator. Keep up the intellectual standard, HLP.
We really need to get rid of all that FreeSpace crap so we can get this forum back on track as an arena for serious intellectual discussion of sociopolitical issues
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We really need to get rid of all that FreeSpace crap so we can get this forum back on track as an arena for serious intellectual discussion of sociopolitical issues
There was such a thing as good old days on HLP? I doubt it. Race and IQ was about the most intellectual discussion I've seen yet.
Honestly though. I just bring this stuff up here because there is just about no other place on the internet where you can talk about politics with people who are anywhere near halfway informed. Which is sad really.
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I agree. Just about anyone who posted in this thread would make a great CNN commentator. Keep up the intellectual standard, HLP.
We really need to get rid of all that FreeSpace crap so we can get this forum back on track as an arena for serious intellectual discussion of sociopolitical issues
I propose a compromise, we only discuss the sociopolitical issues effecting the GTVA.
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That's called the BP board.
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Honestly though. I just bring this stuff up here because there is just about no other place on the internet where you can talk about politics with people who are anywhere near halfway informed. Which is sad really.
Every time I venture away from HLP for anything near an "intellectual" discussion, it goes downhill pretty quick. I just wanted to say that so I can voice how I agree with you. Any other forum/group devolves into "ur a faget" almost every single time in almost every other well-populated community.
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Actually some imageboards have decent political debates, although it depends on who happens to be posting at the time. Still even the level of debate we see on HLP is pretty rare over the internet.
But enough meta. Does anyone have an opinion on the causes or consequences of an end to autocratic rule in China? Would it be a good thing or a bad thing?
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It would be interesting to see if it would stay unified or return to being a collection of individual states. That's assuming a real revolution could actually take hold and succeed though. As Ngtm-1r has mentioned in the pass the PLA is sorta built around suppressing the hell out of this stuff rather then being a military force for international ops.
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CHINA SUCKS (Here, taking HLP out of its intellectual shiny pedestal :lol: )
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I have a question: In Communist China, is this thread blocked, or the entirety of HLP Forums? Isn't karajorma in China ATM? Have we just inadvertently perma-banned kara from HLP until he moves somewhere else? :lol:
Kidding aside, though, I do wonder how the great Chinese firewall handles threads like this in forums not dedicated to political discussion.
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Good point. So a possible solution to not get Kara or any other chinese into trouble is if we don't speak about chinese issues.
And this also generalizes to all possible forums and threads.
Censorship successful?
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I can still see the thread. We probably don't have that many Chinese citizens viewing the board unfortunately and the simple fact is that the Chinese government really don't care much about foreigners talking about China as long as we keep our opinions to ourselves and don't try to spread them amongst the natives.
As for the riots, I doubt anything big will come of them. Far as I can tell, China is slowly transitioning away from being a totalitarian state, they just don't want to **** it up like Russia did.
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Well that is certainly the subliminar propaganda that I'm also exposed to.
The question is, is it really true, or is it just a facade to appease the people. I'm really pessimistic in that sense. Power corrupts, and total power will totally corrupt. And the notion that a party which has the complete power over a billion people will fade their own influence over them just seems surreal and inhuman to me.
I'd love to be proven wrong though...
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China is probably doing some transitions, but whatever they are doing, they are doing it Slloooowwwllyyy as not to cause too much instability on the road to more stability.
That used to be the case but all of those trends have either ground to a halt or have been completely reversed, such as professionalization of the judiciary. Given the amount of vested interests involved today combined with the chinese mentality in general I find it incredibly niave to believe any further reform will come.
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I find it pretty niave to believe they won't.