Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Stryke 9 on May 16, 2002, 06:05:26 pm
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All right, I gather that the consensus right now is that the new FS, when it comes out, will feature the same POF system as the old one, so that the two are compatible. However, I didn't see one specific question I'd be very interested in asked...
I think I can speak for the majority of the HLP community when I say I'd be perfectly happy to never see TrueSpace again. Yet POF files must be converted from .cobs and the IK heirarchies for turrets have to be done in TS. Is it at all possible to bypass TrueSpace for heirarchies, make POF files so that they do not require heirarchies, or get some secondary game file that does not require conversion from Truespace, but perhaps something less... painful to use?
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Well, we definitely need to keep the current POF format around for compatibility, I think that goes without saying. But there's no reason why we couldn't simultaneously support more than one model format.
As I am not a very successful modder :blah: I don't have much exposure to the tools the "real" modders use, or would like to use. Forgive my ignorance, but what are people using besides TS? Do people use 3DS Max or Maya :drool: ?
Are there any existing 3D formats out there that we could base this on? We would probably still need to do some sort of post-processing to add all the BOUNDBOX stuff for collision detection. But in an ideal world, your 3d tool could just spit out the files necessary, and then plug it in and go...
So (this is a rhetorical question), what's wrong with the current POF and OBJ2 formats? What are its shortcomings, and how can we improve on it?
As far as I can tell, the hierarchy thing is probably necessary for subobjects.
(My pet peeve is the PCX files, only about 50% of the graphics viewers I have can handle them... something more standard, like PNG, would be better IMHO)
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no, nothing needs to be changed, perhaps a new tool that would alow you to edit a POF's higherarchy could be usefull for you
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hmmm, an addition to ModelView that lets you load models, glue them, and do hierarchy would be very nice, but as Bobboau said, no need for a new format when the pof format works so well already.
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Originally posted by LtNarol
hmmm, an addition to ModelView that lets you load models, glue them, and do hierarchy would be very nice, but as Bobboau said, no need for a new format when the pof format works so well already.
that would rule. I remember I asked for that lmast year, people answered me that dreaming didn't hurt :sigh:
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Originally posted by Bobboau
no, nothing needs to be changed, perhaps a new tool that would alow you to edit a POF's higherarchy could be usefull for you
the same i was proposing some weeks ago in the wishlist, a tool that "unify" two already converted converted models in one single pof, something that would allow you to add a pof (or a model) into another pof as a lod, and that maybe allows you to add subobjects too.
The subobject stuff would be very useful because you would be able to add for example already converted turrets out of a modelling prog but it may be littlle more difficult since you have to set a position and orientation different form the center of the ship.
Btw this would be the first step to make us free from truespace...
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i could easily hack in support for altering the hierarchy into POF CS - all the code is there for it, i just didn't put in a gui for it
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Yeah, that'd be cool.
Of only the pof editing was WYSIWYG like MV32.......
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actually, won't be really useful unless PCS also generates the lights etc.
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...Wonder if there's a way to work out a .pof plugin for MAX... I know things like guns wouldn't come through, but that's what ModelView and PCS are for...
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Originally posted by venom2506
actually, won't be really useful unless PCS also generates the lights etc.
Why can't PCS generate the lights? They should be fairly straightforward data sets, yes? There's no reason why the program can't do it.
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:v: did their models in Max. They used a special plug-in to export them into a format that BPSGen could read and use to make the POF file. How they did things like turrets I don't know. If you know anything about making plug-ins you might be able to make one. Editing the hierarchy may be difficult if Max doesn't do hierarchies, since you may not end up with seperate objects to start with. (I'm not sure what programs do or don't and other then TS1 I don't think I have any that could do that in a useful filetype.) Some program that could combine seperate 3D program files (like COB, since most of us should have at least one program that can save it) into a hierarchical file, maybe a cob for easy conversion or a POF with the ability to edit the hierarchy would be nice. It's beyond my ability to do right now though. The POF specs are on the Descent Developer's Network though.
Addendum: While we do want to keep backwards compatability (or sidewards? ;)) there was talk about making an updated POF format with all sorts of new features and fixes. Granted, that was talked about before the source was released (for FSF's custom FS2 compatable engine) but IMHO that new POF format is still a good idea. But it'll take some time to make. The first releases are small fixes, updates to raise some of the limits that have bugged MODders for ages, and of course ports to GCC and eventually Linux. :)
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from the little i could find, Max hierarchy allows linking only as child, not sibling. but it's weird for some reasons I don't feel like explaining, so I might search more about that in the future.
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Originally posted by venom2506
from the little i could find, Max hierarchy allows linking only as child, not sibling. but it's weird for some reasons I don't feel like explaining, so I might search more about that in the future.
"link as sibling' should be the same as 'link as child of this object's parent'. You don't really need both, do you?
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Originally posted by mikhael
"link as sibling' should be the same as 'link as child of this object's parent'. You don't really need both, do you?
If you want to link as siblings two objects that don't have parents, then yes you would. Not quite sure where it would come in though, other then the TS1 method of turret grouping where you glue the turrets together as siblings and then group the combined turret group to the main object. (Grouping each individual turret to the parent created a weird hierarchy with extra "phantom" submodels.) Example:
Main object: hull
Subobjects: turret,1 turret,2
Glue each turret to the hull as a child individually and you get:
hull
turret01
phantom object
turret02
Or something like that, don't have TrueView so the exact hierarchy is an educated guess, but you do get phantom submodels. I've experienced that first hand. No idea what would happen with Max, would probably depend on how the converter worked.
What I would really like, but isn't likely to to be made, is a program you can use to assemble submodels from different files. Example: You load the hull. Then you import objects for turrets, shield mesh if any, thrusters, etc. You would position the submodels on the main model (or a submodel they're to be associated with, for turret arms) and then setup the hierarchy. Trying to do good texturing and submodels with the same ship is not proving to be easy for me with the tools I have. I can make useful UV maps in Wings3D, and texture them with LithUnwrap, but when I try to do submodel stuff (lights and turrets) TS1 seems to screw up the UV map.
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Originally posted by EdrickV
Editing the hierarchy may be difficult if Max doesn't do hierarchies, since you may not end up with seperate objects to start with.
Actually, MAX has one of the most complete IK and heirarchy systems around. Thich is why I asked, since MAX can do everything TS does, and more.
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i usually use "link as uncle" or "link as second cousin twice removed"
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The one thing Max can't do is be distributed freely. But to me, that's a very big thing.
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maybe its only a fake, but others told me about a modelling pack from discreet, software house of MAX, similar to max itself, buildspecifically for game modelling and similar stuff, that is freely distribute and can save directly in some of the most common game models format (quake3..)
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i looked for it, and it really exists
its a "special" version of MAX for game purposes, there are two version, one is freely distribute, called GMAX, one is for game developers, called GMAX DEV.
the point is what format gmax supports in saving and importing, but i haven't found infos about that
btw a free version of max is something that may be really useful.
another important point is the possibility to use max's plugins with gmax (like meshtools) or to create gmax plugins that may improove format sharing between progs...
here is the link http://www.discreet.com/products/gmax/
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Originally posted by Carl
i usually use "link as uncle" or "link as second cousin twice removed"
ROFLMAO!!!! :wakka:
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The most important thing to remember is not to specify what program people WILL use! I use Milkshape 3D WOOHOO! and would like to use it always... I tryed max 4, still can't do anything in it though...
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Oh, and the "link as sibling"?
Dunno when you'd really use it without a parent, but it's very simple- link both to a third object, then delete the third. Or co-link the two.
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Originally posted by Carl
i usually use "link as uncle" or "link as second cousin twice removed"
tsk, tsk. You're gonna confuse the newbie modellers :rolleyes:
:D
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Oh, and the "link as sibling"?
Dunno when you'd really use it without a parent, but it's very simple- link both to a third object, then delete the third
the link would just vanish I suppose. one subparent is linked to the parent, not to the other subparent. no link at all between them.if you remove your chest, your two arms won't be linked together :p
co-link?
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Each one parents the other- you link one to the other, then do the same with the second one.
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Originally posted by LAW ENFORCER
The most important thing to remember is not to specify what program people WILL use
yes ok, but simply think that whenever there will be (if there will be..) a support for other model formats than cob or scn the best solution would be to have it for a format used by a very common powerful freeley distribute program. don't know about this gmax, but it may be a good solution if its really a "special" edition for MAX...i still have do downolad it to see what features it has or not
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Gmax is 3dsmax w/o the video post and the renderer.
the best thing you can have for modding, if you ask me.
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I dunno who'd buy MAX for the renderer, anyway...:D
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As far as I can tell, GMax can't export anything. The menu items are disabled. And it's imports are very limited. It can import 3DS, PRJ, DXF, and SHP files. (Three of those being Max formats.) That's it. There may be plug-ins that can change that, but I don't know of them or where to get them. GMax, IMHO, is a lot harder to use then Wings3D or, for some things at least, TS1.
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What did you expect? it's free, it uses the max interface, and you cmplain about that? of course it doesn't have much export options: developpers like microsoft or westwood studios provides their own converters, since every game has different real time 3d file formats. As for importing... it has .3ds, and every program, from TS1 to LW can export to .3ds. So what's the point?
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"every program, from TS1 to LW can export to .3ds"
poorly :nod:
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I expected a crippled program that's not very useful for making FS2 models, and it seems I was right. A modeller is only as good as the formats it exports IMHO, and GMax doesn't export any. You can only export using Game Packs, and there are none for FS2 that I'm aware of. (You might be able to convert a file from some other format like Quake models into a format you can use, but you may lose stuff in the process.) I didn't really intend to use GMax. I downloaded it to see how good it might be since people have been talking about it. People in the above posts weren't sure what formats it could import/export, so I did my post saying what GMax itself can import and export. (The latter being nothing.) There are plug-ins available for importing more file types, but not for exporting. If you just want to make models for the sake of making them or learning how to use Max, GMax could work. But don't expect to make renders with it or to export to 3ds/cob format, it doesn't do that. There may be .gmax file converters out there but I haven't seen any yet. (Not that I've really looked.)
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crippled :wtf:
Sure, if we want to use it for FS2, we'll have to make our own converter, that was pretty obvious anyway.
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Originally posted by venom2506
crippled :wtf:
Sure, if we want to use it for FS2, we'll have to make our own converter, that was pretty obvious anyway.
thats the point, i think
(for beginning plz note that i'll referr to your and venoms description, i still have to test gmax.)
most people in the community uses ts1 or2 just because are free (and necessary), a lot uses progs like blender, milkshape or rhino just because they are free or extremely cheap for the modelling stuff, then export their artwork to ts1 or 2 for final tuning, with often A LOT of exporting probs (as far as i know just a few or maybe nobody uses 3dexploration and are so lucky to have a ready to be converted .cob file with full hyerachy and textures), and a lot always look for FREE and *useful* modelling programs that can be used at some point of the "modelling for fs2" process
as said others told to me some days ago about gmax..and from the description it immediatly sound to me very useful: a version of max with some limitations but free, and if the limitations are the ability to save only to 3ds format (or supported game formats) and to don't have the render (that is not the *best* part of MAX :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ), well i confirm my first impression: very useful.
With most of the other 3d modelling pkages you still have to use for textures and hyerachy a version of truespace and you often have to use a converter (like 3dexploration)...so there is not a big difference in this point actually... simply its another FREE program you can use instead of some others...if you like it....and this can be very useful for a lot of ppl (personally i have both lw and max -but still have to install em- so its not for me)
But the true point is little different: as said the first pof converters were for truespace just because it was free and the cob format was enough complete (hyerachy), this was right some years ago but now truespace is not the only nor the best free modelling prog.
This was the origin of this thread: if we could manage to have hyerachy editation in an external tool (like pcs), so if we can add single meshes to an already converted pof to insert the LODs, and maybe subobjects too, one of the biggest point for we still need to use truespace will expire(you would be able, for example, to texture the already converted pof with lithunwrap that supports in some ways pof formats, and then add the hyerachy with pcs w/o using truespace...).
then comes a little dream :rolleyes: if gmax is free and 3ds is a "complete" file format (hyerachy), and 3ds is a common format (you won't have much troubles converting to 3ds, surely less than cob) it would be good and logical to have directly a converter for 3ds that will let you to do all the modding stuff - modelling-texturing-hyerachy- in single free good prog avoiding all the exporting probs......or maybe even to have a game pack for it to save directly in .pof.
just a dream, i repeat, since probably the only one that could do that is kazan and he said in other threads that for a lot of reasons he has no intention to do that;)
well, maybe its just my opinion (and still have to check gmax;))
btw, sorry for some badspelling,
bye
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KARMA - Gmax will not export to .3DS format. That's one of the reasons a lot of people aren't even giving it a second glance. I have heard that there is a converter of some type available to convert Gmax's unique file format into something useful but I've yet to see it.
MAX or 3DS is still in my opinion the most useful format to work with, I know a lot of converters don't really convert to 3DS format very well but most of them do the job well enough to get by.
The only other possible format which I see the use of is 'XSI'. wEvil suggested it a while back, it's open source and handles everything we need the format to do.
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Originally posted by Maeglamor
KARMA - Gmax will not export to .3DS format. That's one of the reasons a lot of people aren't even giving it a second glance. I have heard that there is a converter of some type available to convert Gmax's unique file format into something useful but I've yet to see it.
MAX or 3DS is still in my opinion the most useful format to work with, I know a lot of converters don't really convert to 3DS format very well but most of them do the job well enough to get by.
The only other possible format which I see the use of is 'XSI'. wEvil suggested it a while back, it's open source and handles everything we need the format to do.
i should have misunderstanded, i thought it was possible to save in 3ds, if not this obviously changes evrything
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I think it exports to milkshape or quake format, and I believe there are 3ds convertors for those. :)
Anyways, didn't sandwich find a way?
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Try getting one of the MAX export plugins... Renderosity has a Lightwave one. If GMAX is a stripped MAX, likely it can use the same plugins.
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All the plug-ins I've tried so far will not initialize. Including an import plug-in. I think GMax uses a different plug-in system. They probably changed some function names in order to break these export plug-ins. Copying the plug-in from the Tempest (Quake III) game pack into the plug-in directory enabled MD3 and MAP exporting and importing, but I'm not sure how good a format that is or how well programs like LithUnwrap (the only program I have that can open MD3 files) can convert it.
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See the last paragraph here:
http://www.discreet.com/products/gmax/gmaxdev/index.html
Max plugins will work only after they are recompiled with the GmaxSDK.
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Originally posted by el84
See the last paragraph here:
http://www.discreet.com/products/gmax/gmaxdev/index.html
Max plugins will work only after they are recompiled with the GmaxSDK.
Which means to make a GMax compatable plug-in you have to have the plug-in's source and GMax Dev, which isn't a free product and it doesn't look like it would be very easy to get.
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Originally posted by EdrickV
how well programs like LithUnwrap (the only program I have that can open MD3 files) can convert it.
using Gmax, you wouldn't need it anyway
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Originally posted by venom2506
using Gmax, you wouldn't need it anyway
I meant converting the MD3 file into a 3DS or Cob file for conversion into a POF file using a cob converter or the hypothetical 3ds converter. The free GMax does not save/export 3ds or Cob files. And it seems it's not likely to.
Edit: And other then a Flight Simulator Pro game pack, the only one I know of is the Tempest Beta game pack for Quake III.