given that GTVA anti-small craft capability roasts pretty much everything that gets within it's envelope within 20 seconds.That's pretty much the description of the UEF point defenses here, not Tev's. The Tev defenses were designed to shoot down bombs and face multiple sucky Shivan crafts, not a handful of highly advanced fleet bombers.
Between fighter screens and specialized escorts, the Durga's wouldn't even get close.Fighter screen ? What fighter screen ? Oh, you mean the slowass fighters easily dispatched by a few Kents ?
In a faction that can't manage to figure out beam cannons.You mean, in a faction that, despite the fact it never needed to have any sort of meaningful battle fleet, built the equivalent of five whole Tev battlegroups, and proved a match for the GTVA might for 18 months, despite that beam tech that seems to important to you.
Almost feel sorry for the poor bastards, don't you? A third the training their fighter pilots get, glorified warhead buses to fly without even a turret to give 'em cover, and half the time their escorts get pulled.
Wait, so the Durga has an Anti-capital CANNON?!?!??!?? On a fighter. In a faction that can't manage to figure out beam cannons.
You'll forgive me if I sit over here in the corner and giggle at the inconsistency.
The Archer is an anti-subsystem slug cannon.
The Redeemer (I think the Vajra too) is an anti-matter hull breaking slug cannon.
Forgot what the UX Accelerator was, but Kentaurois can use them.
Correct for the Archer and Redeemer. The Vajra has been remodelled to be a rapid-fire anti-cruiser gun (but given that the Vajradahara can carry Redeemers in one of its other primary banks, this is not as great a drawback as you might think). The UX Accelerator is what amounts to a fighter-mounted sniper rifle.Ah so it's being changed then.
But it still strikes me as falacious that a hull plate that can withstand sustained direct plasma fire for several seconds is going to be devastated by the energy discharge from a anti-matter explosion.
Ok, I'll buy that they can do the deed. But it still strikes me as falacious that a hull plate that can withstand sustained direct plasma fire for several seconds is going to be devastated by the energy discharge from a anti-matter explosion.Because last I messed around with Durgas, Redeemer fire alone still does very little damage to Destroyers, and as said before they're actually defended unlike GTVA bomber wings so they will be more difficult to take down. Then there's the Vajradhara, which given what it's supposed to do you'll likely only see it in what, a single mission maybe as an act of desparation?
Also, how would you provide a player piloting such a "broken"(yeah I said it) ship a competent challenge since multiple team members have stated that it's deliberately a)nigh-on impossible to kill and b)packs a game breaking wallop from it's primary armament.
I mean once upon a time, someone said that BP wasn't going to go the route of other campaign/mods and retain the destroyer as something to be feared. But with the Durga, it seems you guys are drifting a bit, actually screw it, you guys are firmly into the MOAR! AND BIGGAR! EXPLOSIONS! AND GUNS! arms race at a scale that is that almost Lensman is scale. I really expected better, but I guess I shouldn't have.
I want my SidheDon't worry, you will
It is, but just like nukes, the vast majority of the destruction you are thinking of is related to the medium it's being reacted in. Also, if it's being deployed off a small craft, then the amount per shot has to be something that said small craft can withstand at ranges from maximum attainable to those verging on the suicidal. Given that restriction, it shouldn't be any more destructive than, say, a Helios(also an anti-matter warhead) or a Shivan Megabomb.But it still strikes me as falacious that a hull plate that can withstand sustained direct plasma fire for several seconds is going to be devastated by the energy discharge from a anti-matter explosion.
EDIT: On second thought, I'll replace the flamebait I posted here with something no more productive, but at the very least less insulting. Namely:
ANTIMATTER IS SERIOUS ****ING BUSINESS
I thought the UX Accelerator was the three-burst weapon...? Never heard of it being described as a 'sniper rifle' by any players when I asked them in the somewhat previous BPMulti testing.
I sympathize with you Liberator, I do. All this super-bomber stuff just doesn't work when you factor everything in. I'm past the stage trying to prove my point :P
That would require the Shivans to pop up directly in Sol. The UEF can't operate at any meaningful scale outside Sol.
UEF strikecraft could probably operate off GTVA warships.And UEF warships can be supplied by GTVA logistics.
If BP3 goes this way, Simms needs to be stationed on the Imperieuse. You know, for the lulz.
Durgas vs. ColossusColossus would win. Decent AA turrets and tons of fighters.
Sure? Even if there are two, not one, Durgas around?Uh, yes. Obviously.
AA turrets won't help against reedeemah. Fighters won't help against fighter escort.The Colossus has lots of turrets, which would likely be well armored in the BP verse, and extremely tough. It'd likely have Ter pulses all over, replacing the old blobs, not to mention it has 60 fighter and bomber wings, which would take a lot of UEF fighters to chew through.
All in all, the Collie is nothing but a big watergun-shaped target. Which is why the Tev never thought about building another after the first one failed.
Well let's be honest,
Laporte > Alpha 1
Well let's be honest,In soviet UEF...
Laporte > Alpha 1
A1 is on the other side. Flying Durga.trollolol, no. Neither side would get a player.
The Colossus wouldn't have the same armor/turret HP/armor as in FS2. If we scale it as the Carthage was, it'd have an almost impenetrable amount of health.*cough*
that could mean anywhere from 30 more more wings of fighters, and each wing being four (which seems to be the normal for wings) which would be a ****load of fighters. Especially since the Colossus, due to its nature, would likely have more fighters.We should count how many fighters we kill in DE. IIRC, that should be pretty close to something like 10-15 wings. How many fighters achieved that ? 2-3 wings ?
If it's the latter, that's still a ****ing ton of fighters. Either way, you'd need maaaaaaany UEF fighters to actually kill them all.
We should count how many fighters we kill in DE. IIRC, that should be pretty close to something like 10-15 wings. How many fighters achieved that ? 2-3 wings ?Along side several frigates which have fairly good anti fighter defenses, and not all of those fighters are present at the same time, iirc.
There's also the factor of the jump drive. No sane commander would just sit there if they can't win.Aren't we talking about the Colossus here?
Different commander. :PThere's also the factor of the jump drive. No sane commander would just sit there if they can't win.Aren't we talking about the Colossus here?
Ok, but if you are going to add 60 fighters to the colly, then it's only fair to add 60 fighter support for our Durgas, since the main proposition was durgas vs colly, not durgas vs colly and its entire squadrons.You can't have a capitalship versus another ship without factoring in the fighter support it can field, otherwise it's a stupid versus argument, since it'd be highly unrealistic for it to not have/use its fighter compliment.
otherwise it's a stupid versus argument.
And you can't have multiple bomber wings without factoring in the fighter and frigate / destroyer escort they'll likely have in its bombing run.Uh, that'd be suicide to commit that many of the UEF capitalships to that fight. They only have three destroyers, and if they engaged, even if they aren't killed by the Colossus, they'd be easy targets.
And so on.
Which isn't the point.
Hades' right. If you're gonna simulate the potential of ships vs ships, you've got to take all the factors into account, including fighter complements.
Problem is, if we're incuding the Collie's fighter complement, we've got to add the fighter escort of the Durga, which in all logic, would comprise enough fighters to take care of the Collie's escort.
The problem with this kind of pissing contest is that there is no cap to the number of Durgas (other than the hundred or so fluff cap) we can hypothetically sling at the Colosssus.
Hades' right. If you're gonna simulate the potential of ships vs ships, you've got to take all the factors into account, including fighter complements.Well no. The UEF likely wouldn't be able to commit so many fighters to one battle, else they be open to attack elsewhere. Same if they send so many bombers at them. It's just not worth it, and the Colossus is only drawing away much needed UEF
Problem is, if we're incuding the Collie's fighter complement, we've got to add the fighter escort of the Durga, which in all logic, would comprise enough fighters to take care of the Collie's escort. So on the other hand, we've got to include the warship escort the Collie will surely have. With their own fighter escort.
And so on.
There is a point we have to stop that little game, or we're gonna simulate a large-scale war. Which isn't the point.
Oh come on. First, the Collossus *doesn't exist* in BP universe anymore. So if we are willing to accept its existence, we might as well admit the existence of a spare bunch of Durgas. Second, if the Colly "exists" then you might bet for sure that the UEF will try to bring it down to destroy Tev's morale.I fixed that for you, since I fail to see how destroying a Colossus will morally degrade the GTVA.
Oh, look. A thread in the BP forum has turned into a Buntu/Tev dick-wagging contest. It must be a day that ends in 'y'. :doubt:
Oh come on. First, the Collossus *doesn't exist* in BP universe anymore. So if we are willing to accept its existence, we might as well admit the existence of a spare bunch of Durgas. Second, if the Colly "exists" then you might bet for sure that the UEF will try to bring it down to destroy Tev's moral.There's the fundamental problem, the Colossus is too important and powerful to ignore, and too tough for them to directly engage. They'd likely need numerous, numerous ships, bombers capitalships. But considering the state of the UEF after WiH, that'd leave other sectors of UEF space open fore attack, due to relocated forces.
Oh, look. A thread in the BP forum has turned into a Buntu/Tev dick-wagging contest. It must be a day that ends in 'y'. :doubt:Welcome to most threads on BP. :p
The Vajra has been remodelled to be a rapid-fire anti-cruiser gunSon, I am disappoint.
The Vajra has been remodelled to be a rapid-fire anti-cruiser gunSon, I am disappoint.
Also, are you daft? This argument assumes the Colossus exists in the BP universe, else it's a stupid argument to go 'hurr durr colossus v durgas except colossus doesn't exist makes sense rite' or to have Durga's at modern technology while the Colossus is still using what is technically pre-Capella technology.
The second would would likely see total completion, and would likely be slightly different, with better materials or construction all around, learning from the mistakes of the first model.The GTVA did learn from their mistakes. That's why they didn't build another Colossus and instead went for a high mobility force, purpose build for quick manouvering and shock-jumping.
Obviously. I meant in the way of ship construction. Better materials, more sensible construction methods and such.The second would would likely see total completion, and would likely be slightly different, with better materials or construction all around, learning from the mistakes of the first model.The GTVA did learn from their mistakes. That's why they didn't build another Colossus and instead went for a high mobility force, purpose build for quick manouvering and shock-jumping.
In BP, the better, sensible construction method for Colossus-class vessels is "don't build one Colossus when you can build two Raynors instead".Well herp-de-derp. Not arguing that, in fact.
I thought the Colossus was going to be used as some sort of hypothetical benchmark, kind of like Lucifer vs. Colossus or something like that.It did start out that way, but then fighter and bomber complements were brought into the discussion, followed by escort warships, then the strategic situation. And I think that sums up (and at the same time over-simplyfies) how we got to the current line of arguments I think.
In BP, the better, sensible construction method for Colossus-class vessels is "don't build one Colossus when you can build two Raynors instead".
Didn't the cutscene say something about the mass of 6 lucifers? I guess a Raynor and Lucifer have roughly comparable volume.In BP, the better, sensible construction method for Colossus-class vessels is "don't build one Colossus when you can build two Raynors instead".
Probably more than two Raynors since the Colossus had way more total volume. There is some sense in having a couple of superdestroyers for heavy blockade busting/enforcing and major fleet engagements, but beyond that there's no reason.
Didn't the cutscene say something about the mass of 6 lucifers? I guess a Raynor and Lucifer have roughly comparable volume.No. It said twelve, which is absolutely recockulous. It's more like 4-6.
Didn't the cutscene say something about the mass of 6 lucifers? I guess a Raynor and Lucifer have roughly comparable volume.No. It said twelve, which is absolutely recockulous. It's more like 4-6.
Durga Durga jihad?
The Lucifer was long, but it was also very thin, kind of narrow and not very tall. Even if they were the same length the Colossus was much more spacious.(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm56/HLPHades/uwrong.png)
'scuse me, what makes the Hades any more useful than the Colossus?
Watch out Rounds, Hades could be fooling us with a perspective effect ;).
EDIT: I'm still willing to bet with any of you that the 10-12 figure might actually be more spot on than the 4-6 figure that people have claimed to in here.
No what I said here was that I'm ignoring any ratio between mass and volume and assuming it is equal for both ships.
'scuse me, what makes the Hades any more useful than the Colossus?
Durga Durga jihad?
:yes:
I AM CREDIT TO TEAM'scuse me, what makes the Hades any more useful than the Colossus?
Infinite Lokis.
Twelve Lucifer-class destroyers can fit within it's massive hull....
Its pivot point must be at what was originally planned to be the model's center.
It is, but just like nukes, the vast majority of the destruction you are thinking of is related to the medium it's being reacted in. Also, if it's being deployed off a small craft, then the amount per shot has to be something that said small craft can withstand at ranges from maximum attainable to those verging on the suicidal. Given that restriction, it shouldn't be any more destructive than, say, a Helios(also an anti-matter warhead) or a Shivan Megabomb.But it still strikes me as falacious that a hull plate that can withstand sustained direct plasma fire for several seconds is going to be devastated by the energy discharge from a anti-matter explosion.
EDIT: On second thought, I'll replace the flamebait I posted here with something no more productive, but at the very least less insulting. Namely:
ANTIMATTER IS SERIOUS ****ING BUSINESS
All I'm saying is this, there's more than a little fanboy going on with the Durga. I'm just trying to keep you honest.
Not necessarily, if the shielding of a fighter is capable of deflecting high energy gamma rays then an anti matter explosion would have little effect (assuming antihydrogen is used). Though why shields would feasibly deflect gamma rays and not other Electromagnetic waves is completely unknown to me but it would allow shielded targets to survive antimatter explosions while unshielded ones would be devastated.
As a side not plasma beams make no sense (as a beam of charged matter that travels instantaneously just make 0 sense) but I'll accept it for the sake of the game. (That and they look cool)
Though why shields would feasibly deflect gamma rays and not other Electromagnetic waves is completely unknown to me but it would allow shielded targets to survive antimatter explosions while unshielded ones would be devastated.
It is, but just like nukes, the vast majority of the destruction you are thinking of is related to the medium it's being reacted in. Also, if it's being deployed off a small craft, then the amount per shot has to be something that said small craft can withstand at ranges from maximum attainable to those verging on the suicidal. Given that restriction, it shouldn't be any more destructive than, say, a Helios(also an anti-matter warhead) or a Shivan Megabomb.
All I'm saying is this, there's more than a little fanboy going on with the Durga. I'm just trying to keep you honest.
Molybdenum based degenerate matter is still very much capable of melting, especially considering that altering the energy levels in degenerate matter would cause the volume to increase (and by extension density decrease).:wtf:
Also out of curiosity, from what I've read on degenerate matter (which admittedly isn't much) I've only really read about degenerate gases. I am not sure if this is just my limited knowledge or due to some printable I don't know but if you have any information please feel free to link. I am curious.I think being in such a high density forces the atoms into higher energy states or some such, so you may well be right.
with no medium to propogate the shockwave in space, the destructive power of explosives is hugely reduced.
Well without it every capitol ship engagement would have 1 bomber launching one bomb at a capitol ship and killing it. That would simply be no fun at all so you kind of have to ignore reality for the sake of game play.You can kill a Fenris with dual Helioses, I think that's...fun enough :P
I wonder why they don't just use shaped charges or something...?
with no medium to propogate the shockwave in space, the destructive power of explosives is hugely reduced.
Doesn't work if it's in skin-skin contact or penetrates. Bombs don't proximity-detonate for the most part.
Those direct contact bombs are less effective unless it is extremely powerful. Shaped charge is more efficient since with the same amount of warhead it detonates after it pierces the armor plating rather than outside it. Considering spaceships are supposed to be a lot tougher than today's toughest tanks.
Finally, and infyrno that even noobs can use. It's even directional so you can't kill yourself with it.
I thought that was the Slammer...
The mass driver slammer.Finally, and infyrno that even noobs can use. It's even directional so you can't kill yourself with it.
I thought that was the Slammer...
I thought that was the Slammer...
I recall you guys saying something about giving the player anti-Slammer armor a few times because people got killed by their own/other UEF fighters' Slammers.
Hm, a ship firing Piranhas damages itself, doesn't it?If the shields are in really bad shape, yes.
The Piranha also uses seekers, they're just horribly ineffective seekers.
It's also a complete waste of Tempest space which would still help you kill them faster.
They can be made to use dumbfires properly can't they?
They can be made to use dumbfires properly can't they?
They do it, thanks to the Fury AI.
You read wrong. Kosh said piranha spam BY the bombers can be scary if you fly intercept.
I just do barrel rolls and spam X, though I lose valuable time that could be used for shooting down bombs.
I think Argonautica (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Argonautica) is the one most of us are thinking of, with Vasudan fighters as your only choices(leaving pretty much just the Tauret and Seth as durable enough to stand up to Piranha spam).
Guess what, shockwaves kills it if not the bomblets. :PI think Argonautica (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Argonautica) is the one most of us are thinking of, with Vasudan fighters as your only choices(leaving pretty much just the Tauret and Seth as durable enough to stand up to Piranha spam).
Nah take a Serapis, flies like a dream. "Avoid the bomblets and you won't get hit, pilot."
So what's the logical conclution of that chain? "Avoid being hit and you won't get hit pilot"?"Avoid being slammer'd or redemah'd and you won't get hit pilot."
How come there weren't any in the first release of WiH? Did it have something to do with you guy's adversity to bombers?Uh, what adversity to bombers?
Which still doesn't make sense to me given that the UEF favors small craft deployments. Was it just something to make them different from the GTVA, which favors large numbers of reasonably tough, though slow and under armed torpedo delivery vehicles?It does make a lot of sense, if you consider the situation.
At least we haven't seen the new fighters and bombers yet, probably Byrne kept them in hiding until the right moment.
At least we haven't seen the new fighters and bombers yet, probably Byrne kept them in hiding until the right moment.
Probably Byrne kept them hiding until it was to late*
Long live the Tevs!
In all seriousness though, it better be to late :/
Tev lovers are the louder ones.
Because they know in their heart that they're wrong, but won't admit it.