Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sarafan on July 20, 2011, 08:55:51 pm
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A few weeks ago I've managed to get the Warhammer 40k novel Rynn's World and really liked it, it was a good novel, much better than what I expected and I had always wanted to know the story of the Crimson Fist's battle there. Now I'm trying to see if I can get more 40k novels but I'm a bit lost as to where to go from there, I've heard that the Horus Heresy novels are terrible and that the quality varies greatly from novel to novel so I'm wary of just getting the first I come across.
I wanted to ask here if anyone has any good recommendations? AFAIK there are some 40k players here so any help at all is appreciated.
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Gaunt's Ghosts are a pretty reliable good read. It's IG, and really goes into small unit engagements which I always liked. They're available in several omnibuses, starting with The Founding.
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The Eisenhorn and Ravenor series by Dan Abnett are excellent, and they both come in a money-saving omnibus edition. They're both about Inquisitors, so they offer a bit of a look at the Imperium that isn't a battlefield. I'd finish Eisenhorn before moving on to the Ravenor books, as Ravenor takes place chronologically after Eisenhorn and has several characters from Eisenhorn. You won't miss anything important to the story if you read Ravenor first, but there are a few references to Eisenhorn in Ravenor.
If you're interested in the Imperial Guard, the Gaunt's Ghosts novels are also by Dan Abnett, and they're pretty good at depicting the Imperial Guard as something other than faceless cannon fodder thrown into a meat grinder just for the heck of it. The Last Chancers novels are a bit different from your guts and glory stuff as they cover an inglorious Penal Legion as they do a variety of gritty, suicidal tasks only penal scum would be assigned. Both the Last Chancers and Gaunt's Ghost novels are in omnibus form.
For Space Marines, the Ultramarines books by Graham McNeill are pretty good, and they don't give the Ultramarines a Mary Sure treatment too badly. If Ultramarines don't interest you, there's the Salamanders books by Nick Kyme which aren't about Mary Sues. Angels of Darkness is a good look at the Dark Angels. There's also Brothers of the Snake, which is about the Iron Snakes, who are awesome Space Hoplites who make the Ultramarines look like cowards. And of course there are the Space Wolves and Blood Angels novels, which are about Space Vikings and Space Vampires.
If Eldar interest you, there's Path of the Warrior which is about a pussy Eldar (no really, he starts sobbing like a baby when his crush tells him to wait a bit) who decides to run away and join the Striking Scorpions Aspect. Aside from the main character being a whiny *****, they're pretty good at giving you a look at Eldar society, and miles ahead of the other Eldar book, which was made by C.S. Goto and is therefore a steaming pile of ****.
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I'm here to do something very unpopular.
**** Dan Abnett. **** him hard. He wrote exactly one good book and most of another one. The Gaunt's Ghosts' books try to make the Guard look plausible and even somewhat modern-tactics but don't actually work if you're more than passingly familiar with either subject. (Perversely, the Cain books actually do it better.) I cannot offer an opinion Eisenhorn/Ravenor, having been unable to find either.
Suggestions for actually good books: the first two Grey Knights books. They may cause you to rage on contact with Matt Ward's new codex, however. The Caiphas Cain books, if you don't mind a little humor, are a pretty good picture of how the Guard works. Brothers of the Snake is a great book to see a Space Marine squad in action and get a feel for how a Marine "culture" operates and probably the best thing Abnett ever wrote. Titanicus, if you ignore all the parts that aren't about the AdMech, is superb. The Space Wolves books are readable and actually pretty good in parts.
Suggestions of books to avoid: C.S. Goto's work is hair-pullingly inept with the canon. The Chaos-based novels are remarkably hit-and-miss, the Night Lords books are readable, the others aren't. The Ultramarines books are not bad, but they're definitely not good.
I've heard good things about the Horus Heresy books, but what I've heard also suggests their relation to 40k is almost tangential. That's not what you'd expect from that period, but it's what you've got apparently.
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If you're interested in the Imperial Guard, the Gaunt's Ghosts novels are also by Dan Abnett, and they're pretty good at depicting the Imperial Guard as something other than faceless cannon fodder thrown into a meat grinder just for the heck of it. The Last Chancers novels are a bit different from your guts and glory stuff as they cover an inglorious Penal Legion as they do a variety of gritty, suicidal tasks only penal scum would be assigned. Both the Last Chancers and Gaunt's Ghost novels are in omnibus form.
For Space Marines, the Ultramarines books by Graham McNeill are pretty good, and they don't give the Ultramarines a Mary Sure treatment too badly. If Ultramarines don't interest you, there's the Salamanders books by Nick Kyme which aren't about Mary Sues. Angels of Darkness is a good look at the Dark Angels. There's also Brothers of the Snake, which is about the Iron Snakes, who are awesome Space Hoplites who make the Ultramarines look like cowards. And of course there are the Space Wolves and Blood Angels novels, which are about Space Vikings and Space Vampires.
On the ultramarines novels, are you saying the universe doesnt immediately realise that it is in the presence of perfected perfection incarnate and doesnt bow to it? Are you actually saying the Ultramarines have to DO something in the book? Surely you jest!
Is there any novels with the Imperial Fists? What are the good Salamanders novels? Those two are two of the best chapters IMO aside from the whole pain glove/pyromaniac thing respectively.
If Eldar interest you, there's Path of the Warrior which is about a pussy Eldar (no really, he starts sobbing like a baby when his crush tells him to wait a bit) who decides to run away and join the Striking Scorpions Aspect. Aside from the main character being a whiny *****, they're pretty good at giving you a look at Eldar society, and miles ahead of the other Eldar book, which was made by C.S. Goto and is therefore a steaming pile of ****.
I was really interested in Path of the Warrior until I read a few reviews on it, is the main character that insuffereable or is he bearable enough that you can finish the book?
I'm here to do something very unpopular.
**** Dan Abnett. **** him hard. He wrote exactly one good book and most of another one. The Gaunt's Ghosts' books try to make the Guard look plausible and even somewhat modern-tactics but don't actually work if you're more than passingly familiar with either subject. (Perversely, the Cain books actually do it better.) I cannot offer an opinion Eisenhorn/Ravenor, having been unable to find either.
Suggestions for actually good books: the first two Grey Knights books. They may cause you to rage on contact with Matt Ward's new codex, however. The Caiphas Cain books, if you don't mind a little humor, are a pretty good picture of how the Guard works. Brothers of the Snake is a great book to see a Space Marine squad in action and get a feel for how a Marine "culture" operates and probably the best thing Abnett ever wrote. Titanicus, if you ignore all the parts that aren't about the AdMech, is superb. The Space Wolves books are readable and actually pretty good in parts.
Suggestions of books to avoid: C.S. Goto's work is hair-pullingly inept with the canon. The Chaos-based novels are remarkably hit-and-miss, the Night Lords books are readable, the others aren't. The Ultramarines books are not bad, but they're definitely not good.
I've heard good things about the Horus Heresy books, but what I've heard also suggests their relation to 40k is almost tangential. That's not what you'd expect from that period, but it's what you've got apparently.
From the bits I've seen of the HH novels it seemed everyone including the Emperor took stupid pills. I've only heard good things about Ciaphas Cain but know little of it, what is he? A general? Rank and file?
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Cain is a Commissar Who Doesn't Shoot His Men. Much.
And, if you believe him (it's pretty popular not to, considering he's taken on Traitor Marines and Daemons in hand-to-hand without flipping the **** out), a complete coward. Who worked his way to Hero of the Imperium by being lucky.
If you believe him.
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Yes Sarafan, the Ultramarines books actually have them do stuff. They're no more Mary Sue than any other Space Marine chapter according to the novels. I don't know of any Imperial Fist novels, but the Salamanders novels (Salamander and Firedrake, both part of a trilogy) are pretty good with fluff and action scenes, plus the Salamanders become pretty relatable. I really like them.
As to Path of the Warrior, you can finish the book since he eventually gets tougher (especially once a certain event happens), just be prepared to feel contempt for the spess elf until that happens.
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Path of the Warrior's problem wasn't that the protagonist was insufferable. Its problem was that the writing was, at its very best, tolerable. At its best.
Anyway, go read the Inquisition War. Best 40k material bar none, though the canon is out of date. Which shouldn't matter. The Cain stuff is fun. Abnett...was fun for four and a half books, at which point I burned out and now I never want to read anything he's written ever again. In fairness, part of that was reading them back to back; it's possible I might have stuck with him if I'd read something else in between, but for damned sure the Ghosts weren't good enough to sustain my interest for a lengthy period.
I was very pleasantly surprised by the Enforcer omnibus, though if you go in expecting massive battles you'll be sorely disappointed.
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As far as Horus Heresy books go.. i've been reading Mechanicum right now, and aside from the description porn, it seems relatively decent.
I also got to plow through the ciaphas cain omnibus these days...
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*Cracks knuckles* I've got two shelf-fulls of 40k books, and about 75% of them are Dan Abnett, so you'll get a rather different opinion from me compared to NGTM-1R.
The very first 40k book I ever read, before I even knew anything at all about the series, was Eisenhorn. I can't recommend it enough. Pick up the omnibus and check it out, first and foremost. It's a great cross-section of the universe, featuring aliens, mutants and heretics all in one handy volume (although each are the respective focus of the three collected books). Personally, I really appreciated the characterization that went into crafting Eisenhorn's entourage over his career, with a great story arc reaching across all three segments. After that, I highly recommend the Ravenor series, which you can also pick up as a rather swanky-looking omnibus. Inquisitor Ravenor was Eisenhorn's protege, and hence I highly recommend you read Eisenhorn first.
Also, I happen to adore the Gaunt's Ghosts series. Again, you can probably pick them up cheap on Amazon or from your local sci-fi bookstore in omnibus form. However, it's a pretty damn hefty read. There's something like 14 books at this point, divided into 3 major story arcs, with the 4th having just begun with its first book about a year ago. Each omnibus comprises a "campaign" within the greater Sabbat Worlds Crusade in which Gaunt and the Tanith Ghosts are taking part, with each individual book taking place on a single planet and linked by an overall theme or story arc. The series provides a really great spectrum of battle types, ranging from airborne operations, to trench warfare, to a special-ops/guerrilla strikes on a Chaos-held planet. Abnett also manages to craft a wide cast of characters that you'll actually give a damn about. Throughout the battles, plenty of main characters die, and you'll genuinely care what happens to them and the ramifications for the regiment as a whole. I don't know what problem NGTM-1R had with them, but one of the major complaints I can see coming out of the series is that Abnett attempts to make 40k as plausible and realistic as possible within the constraints of the universe, and this occasionally raises some issues. However, I think this is definitely a minor issue, and most of the time everything fits quite well. Also, the first few books of the series, especially the very first, certainly aren't the strongest. But this is remedied very quickly, and the final book of the first series - Necropolis - is a damn good read, and 'Only in Death' provides a bloody creepy experience. Definitely worth a look.
Beyond this, Abnett's also written a few independent stories set within the same Crusade. One, Titanicus, tells the story of Titan legions operating on a Forgeworld during a Chaos invasion. It presents a very interesting look into how the Collegia Titanica operates, although there's kind of a ****ty suckerpunch at the end for one of the characters. The second independent tale is called Double Eagle, which is set in the aerospace corps of the Imperium. Not the greatest read I've ever had, but still an interesting look into a mode of warfare not often seen in the 40k universe.
I can also highly recommend the entire Commissar Cain series. It's a major change of pace from the dramatic Abnett books, with Sandy Mitchell capturing the lighter side of the grim-dark universe. The books are told from the perspective of Commissar Caiaphas Cain as written in his unpublished (and hence totally candid) memoirs, with humorous footnotes provided by a sexy Inquisitor who may or may not have been involved with Cain. The primary gag of the series is that Cain is a cowardly, lazy guy who essentially just wants to pass out his service in the quietest corner of the galaxy, without having to give his life for the Emperor. Of course, things never seem to go to plan for him, as he repeatedly finds himself in the midst of Tyranid hive fleets, Ork Waaaghs, and Daemon summonings. Not only that, but he somehow becomes one of the greatest heroes this side of Holy Terra, resulting in his reputation getting him into further peril. It's a hilarious read, and Cain's sardonic manner as he explains 'what really happened' always plays just right. This is definitely worth a look, if only to see that humor does indeed exist in the 41st Millennium.
Of the Horus Heresy series, I've only read Mechanicum. As pecenipicek says, if you can look past the overdetailing, it's quite entertaining. However, from what I've seen of the rest of the series, there's not much there that held my interest. Honestly, I tend to shy away from Space Marine books, so I'm definitely not an expert and hence won't comment on any.
tl;dr - Check out Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Gaunt's Ghosts and Commissar Cain. Mefustae's seal of approval. :yes:
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Beyond this, Abnett's also written a few independent stories set within the same Crusade. One, Titanicus, tells the story of Titan legions operating on a Forgeworld during a Chaos invasion. It presents a very interesting look into how the Collegia Titanica operates, although there's kind of a ****ty suckerpunch at the end for one of the characters.
I need to get this... I'm a bit obsessed with titans...
I can also highly recommend the entire Commissar Cain series. It's a major change of pace from the dramatic Abnett books, with Sandy Mitchell capturing the lighter side of the grim-dark universe. The books are told from the perspective of Commissar Caiaphas Cain as written in his unpublished (and hence totally candid) memoirs, with humorous footnotes provided by a sexy Inquisitor who may or may not have been involved with Cain. The primary gag of the series is that Cain is a cowardly, lazy guy who essentially just wants to pass out his service in the quietest corner of the galaxy, without having to give his life for the Emperor. Of course, things never seem to go to plan for him, as he repeatedly finds himself in the midst of Tyranid hive fleets, Ork Waaaghs, and Daemon summonings. Not only that, but he somehow becomes one of the greatest heroes this side of Holy Terra, resulting in his reputation getting him into further peril. It's a hilarious read, and Cain's sardonic manner as he explains 'what really happened' always plays just right. This is definitely worth a look, if only to see that humor does indeed exist in the 41st Millennium.
Everything i've heard about the books says it'll definitely be a good read.
Of the Horus Heresy series, I've only read Mechanicum. As pecenipicek says, if you can look past the overdetailing, it's quite entertaining. However, from what I've seen of the rest of the series, there's not much there that held my interest. Honestly, I tend to shy away from Space Marine books, so I'm definitely not an expert and hence won't comment on any.
i've heard that "Fulgrim" was quite good, if nothing else.
As a side note, since when did Horus have a last name? Lupercal, was it?
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I picked up two omnibus collections of Cain novels some time ago, covering the first six novels in the series plus some short stories, and I can say without a doubt in my mind that they are very much worth a read. They are humorous, yes, downright hilarious in places actually, but still manage to convey the drama and sense of danger of 40k warfare while giving a genuinely good insight into the workins of a Guard regiment. And Cain himself is just a delightful character. I'm pretty sure I would have enjoyed them even if I had absolutely no interest in 40k, which is saying something.
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Yes Sarafan, the Ultramarines books actually have them do stuff. They're no more Mary Sue than any other Space Marine chapter according to the novels.
Talking down the mother****ing Nightbringer isn't a Mary Sue act? :P Especially when the nature of it means you'd honestly expect a Marine to go "**** it, you're dying with me" and meltabomb the room, thus knocking out both the Nightbringer and his ship for eternity.
Now maybe that's my Grey Knights experience talking, but if it had been Brother-Sergeant Priad or Gabriel Angelos I'm pretty sure they would have blasted the room. The Ultramarines wussed out. Now we have the physical incarnation of death on the loose.
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Yes Sarafan, the Ultramarines books actually have them do stuff. They're no more Mary Sue than any other Space Marine chapter according to the novels.
Talking down the mother****ing Nightbringer isn't a Mary Sue act? :P Especially when the nature of it means you'd honestly expect a Marine to go "**** it, you're dying with me" and meltabomb the room, thus knocking out both the Nightbringer and his ship for eternity.
Now maybe that's my Grey Knights experience talking, but if it had been Brother-Sergeant Priad or Gabriel Angelos I'm pretty sure they would have blasted the room. The Ultramarines wussed out. Now we have the physical incarnation of death on the loose.
I'd like to say I can't disagree with you, but you are correct. Priad and Angelos would have ****ed the Nightbringer's **** up.
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Last Chancers.... Every time.
The good one where they infiltrate a Tau world.
It's awesome.
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So far, I've only read start of Horus Heresy and Gaunt's Ghosts (you won't belive how difficult is to find these books in Poland), but I can recommend both series.
Also, Horus Heresy is amazing especially if you roughly know how it went. It may be the only instance when this does not detract from experience, but actually greatly adds to it. Abbnet and McNeil appearantely assumed you know the 40K backstory, so both first and second books are written in a way that accounts for that. I don't know if others are also written this way, but from what I've heard, they're also very good.
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I'm not sure how they compare since they are the only ones I've read, but I liked the Space (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1630050) Wolf (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod630009a) novels. Especially the last ones.
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So far, I've only read start of Horus Heresy and Gaunt's Ghosts (you won't belive how difficult is to find these books in Poland), but I can recommend both series.
Also, Horus Heresy is amazing especially if you roughly know how it went. It may be the only instance when this does not detract from experience, but actually greatly adds to it. Abbnet and McNeil appearantely assumed you know the 40K backstory, so both first and second books are written in a way that accounts for that. I don't know if others are also written this way, but from what I've heard, they're also very good.
its not that much different here in croatia, just so you know...
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Yes Sarafan, the Ultramarines books actually have them do stuff. They're no more Mary Sue than any other Space Marine chapter according to the novels. I don't know of any Imperial Fist novels, but the Salamanders novels (Salamander and Firedrake, both part of a trilogy) are pretty good with fluff and action scenes, plus the Salamanders become pretty relatable. I really like them.
As to Path of the Warrior, you can finish the book since he eventually gets tougher (especially once a certain event happens), just be prepared to feel contempt for the spess elf until that happens.
Sorry, its hard not to poke fun when it comes to GW's poster chapter.
Talking down the mother****ing Nightbringer isn't a Mary Sue act? :P Especially when the nature of it means you'd honestly expect a Marine to go "**** it, you're dying with me" and meltabomb the room, thus knocking out both the Nightbringer and his ship for eternity.
Where did this happened?
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The first Ultramarines book. You can probably only find it in the omnibus these days.
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I recall thinking "Storm of Iron" was a good book when I read it several years ago. This may or may not mean that it's actually a good book. :p
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i've finished mechanicum... and... bleh. the ending was just bleargh. also if dalia cythera isnt a mary sue of sorts, shoot me in the head right now.