Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: T-Man on August 09, 2011, 10:40:04 am
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You may not may not be aware that England is kind of having 'some problems' with riots right now (See under "Jesus London looks like the Somme!")
Just wanted to pass on to my fellow HLPers like Karajorma; if you live in any of the affected places, stay safe alright?
Cheers
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In the middle-east it's a peaceful protest.
In London, it's a riot.
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To be fair we aren't used to shops being set ablaze in the UK, a few cars and vans we are used to but not anything beyond that
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Well, I as I said earlier, I'm in Enfield, though fortunately far enough away from lootable shops to not be at great risk. Funny that isn't it, the rioting only happens where there's shops with windows to smash and stuff to steal? ;)
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Now to quote a mate
Packed my bags and got a one way ticket to Syria. It's too dangerous here.
also
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/london-riots+content/video?cmp=OTCNEWTXT8124
edit
Someone has set up a petition on the HM Government website to stop the benefits of anyone committing an offence during the riots
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337
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It could get a lot worse because the police is reportedly standing down and letting it happen. If you're in London, arm yourself with something and be safe.
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Someone has set up a petition on the HM Government website to stop the benefits of anyone committing an offence during the riots
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337
So these are all a bunch of welfare leeches running around?
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Someone has set up a petition on the HM Government website to stop the benefits of anyone committing an offence during the riots
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337
So these are all a bunch of welfare leeches running around?
even if they are on working tax credits do you want them receiving them?
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Not really, that's just usual UK habit, to assume everyone who is unemployed is like a guest on the Jeremy Kyle show.
The horizon here is mostly smoke from the Sony Warehouse that was set alight (it's about 30 mins from here), and all the shops have closed early. Personally, whilst the Police are worried about vigilante justice, part of me would like to see it in this case, the rioters claim they are angry at the Police, yet most of their attacks seem to be aimed at innocent bystanders (including robbing a young child whilst he was on the pavement bleeding heavily from the face), so I'd like to see the public drawing the line if the Police cannot.
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Someone has set up a petition on the HM Government website to stop the benefits of anyone committing an offence during the riots
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337
So these are all a bunch of welfare leeches running around?
even if they are on working tax credits do you want them receiving them?
Cutting these people off will only make them more desperate, resulting in more riots, resulting in more filled jail cells, resulting in more distaste for the police, resulting in more riots, resulting in more people cut off...
Wash, rinse, repeat.
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Don't you have National Guard or something to deploy for these situations? If the cops are unable to lock it down and you're on the verge of having some rumble between shop keepers and looters it'll turn into a blood bath.
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Well, part of the irony of the matter is that these so-called riots are supposed to be about the Police arrest, survelliance and search procedures, which is kind of humorous if you consider that these events will basically result in the Police being gifted with more funding, powers and free-reign when dealing with potentially violent offenders. So, in essence, these riots are actually achieving the exact opposite of what was intended.
If they continue for any period of time, there are certain special powers that can be granted, and we are back to the days to Water Cannons and Rubber bullets. Then maybe we'll have a Police State on a par with the early 80's again.
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Someone has set up a petition on the HM Government website to stop the benefits of anyone committing an offence during the riots
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337
So these are all a bunch of welfare leeches running around?
even if they are on working tax credits do you want them receiving them?
Cutting these people off will only make them more desperate, resulting in more riots, resulting in more filled jail cells, resulting in more distaste for the police, resulting in more riots, resulting in more people cut off...
Wash, rinse, repeat.
This is how you can use the welfare state as a weapon against the middle class and also justify a growing police state in response. People will welcome a military police intervention.
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Someone has set up a petition on the HM Government website to stop the benefits of anyone committing an offence during the riots
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337
So these are all a bunch of welfare leeches running around?
even if they are on working tax credits do you want them receiving them?
Cutting these people off will only make them more desperate, resulting in more riots, resulting in more filled jail cells, resulting in more distaste for the police, resulting in more riots, resulting in more people cut off...
Wash, rinse, repeat.
Fair enough that's all stuff the politicians will need to discuss. With any luck the discussion of loosing benefits will put most of them off
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If the police does not take decisive action soon, it will be a matter of time until this repeats again. These people have little respect for authority, and it is only diminishing even more the longer this continues. Why dont they call the army for help, if the police is too weak?
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Well, I as I said earlier, I'm in Enfield, though fortunately far enough away from lootable shops to not be at great risk. Funny that isn't it, the rioting only happens where there's shops with windows to smash and stuff to steal? ;)
Because everyone knows where those things are and thus, they make for excellent meeting points? ;).
If the police does not take decisive action soon, it will be a matter of time until this repeats again. These people have little respect for authority, and it is only diminishing even more the longer this continues. Why dont they call the army for help, if the police is too weak?
Because the army is not adept at using non lethal tactics. Lethal tactics tend to intensify riots. The police is not all that weak either, but the primary function of the police is to protect (civilians and themselves, even if those civilians are rioting).
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Heh, well, we've got groups of kids walking into shopping centres, smashing windows, looting stuff and running off, so there's no real doubt as to what the intentions are in most cases :)
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All those surveillance cameras that creeped me out so much have failed to dissuade looting? I recommend issuing portcullises to all small businesses. It's the historically informed thing to do, and definitely cheaper than digging moats.
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Trouble has started to sprout in other citys, Nottingham, Bristol, Birmingham, manchester and Liverpool. I wonder how long before Cameron brings in the troops!
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Don't you have National Guard or something to deploy for these situations? If the cops are unable to lock it down and you're on the verge of having some rumble between shop keepers and looters it'll turn into a blood bath.
Not really, the usual procedure is to bring in riot trained police, the problem is that there just not enough of them in the metropolitan area so they are having to draft them in from other forces which as usual take a couple of days to do the paperwork.
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With all these conflicts and disasters, might it be prudent to have a general HLP check-in thread?
Good luck and stay safe to those in England. I was just there last summer, crazy. :\
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Not really, the usual procedure is to bring in riot trained police, the problem is that there just not enough of them in the metropolitan area so they are having to draft them in from other forces which as usual take a couple of days to do the paperwork.
We've also got the problem that the goverment reduced the number of police officers in the cuts. My Brother and Father are down near London and last time i spoke to them they were ok, but i am still worried!
Bring out the Territorial army (TA's), Army, Watercannons!! like they have done in ireland! But for some reason MPs are refusing this while more innocent people suffer! Its a disgrace! To day i am ashmed to be British with these riots going on.
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Not really, the usual procedure is to bring in riot trained police, the problem is that there just not enough of them in the metropolitan area so they are having to draft them in from other forces which as usual take a couple of days to do the paperwork.
We've also got the problem that the goverment reduced the number of police officers in the cuts. My Brother and Father are down near London and last time i spoke to them they were ok, but i am still worried!
Bring out the Territorial army (TA's), Army, Watercannons!! like they have done in ireland! But for some reason MPs are refusing this while more innocent people suffer! Its a disgrace! To day i am ashmed to be British with these riots going on.
The riots are shamefull but i'm not sure if water cannons are the right step and therein lies the problem, the troubles were a different generation and attitudes has changed quite drastically in that time so would it have the right effect or would it cause new outrage reinforcing the ranks of the rioters with a new legitimate protest
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Indeed, the last thing the authority needs is this turning into a legitimate protest, instead of just a bunch of angry people venting their frustrations. It seems like it should subside in time but the trick is not to escalate things even more, I think.
EDIT: From this news article:
http://news.yahoo.com/great-riot-london-stakes-david-cameron-193006536.html
"What is it that leads vast numbers of the country's youth to feel so disengaged and alienated from society and their own communities that they resort to violence, even allegedly recreational violence, on such a devastating scale? "
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With all these conflicts and disasters, might it be prudent to have a general HLP check-in thread?
We already have one. It's currently titled "W-H-I-Y-L It's NEVER over!!!!"
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I live right in Lewisham, I've lived through worse. I'm a survivor ;)
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good spot on that link UT
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if looting ever broke out in my vicinity i think i would join the looters. but im not british so what do i know.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424
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Yeah, shows if nothing else that we've cut back a little too far on education budgets if that's the kind of minds that we're pushing out nowadays ;)
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Apparently last night was much less intense, probably due to the increase police prescence, 16,000 officers in the capital alone. That, or it's just burnt itself out.
My favourite quote about the riots came from a waterstones employee: "We'll stay open, if they steal some books they might learn something"
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Apparently last night was much less intense, probably due to the increase police prescence, 16,000 officers in the capital alone. That, or it's just burnt itself out.
My favourite quote about the riots came from a waterstones employee: "We'll stay open, if they steal some books they might learn something"
This also might have had something to do with it
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/fed-residents-form-anti-looter-patrols-062625198.html
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Apparently last night was much less intense, probably due to the increase police prescence, 16,000 officers in the capital alone. That, or it's just burnt itself out.
My favourite quote about the riots came from a waterstones employee: "We'll stay open, if they steal some books they might learn something"
This also might have had something to do with it
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/fed-residents-form-anti-looter-patrols-062625198.html
Thanks for the link, it shows the police (and government in general) cannot and will not protect you in times of need. Firefighters been doing great though, they've saved a lot of people from their burning houses the past days. Also a good effort of citizens, realizing they're the ones that need to protect their communities. Good wake up call there, hope it bonds people together for a long time to come.
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A yellow-coded curfew is now in effect. Any unauthorized personnel will be subject to arrest. This is for your protection.
Or: Would a curfew help to calm down the situation?
Thoughts?
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Not really, the usual procedure is to bring in riot trained police, the problem is that there just not enough of them in the metropolitan area so they are having to draft them in from other forces which as usual take a couple of days to do the paperwork.
We've also got the problem that the goverment reduced the number of police officers in the cuts. My Brother and Father are down near London and last time i spoke to them they were ok, but i am still worried!
Bring out the Territorial army (TA's), Army, Watercannons!! like they have done in ireland! But for some reason MPs are refusing this while more innocent people suffer! Its a disgrace! To day i am ashmed to be British with these riots going on.
I just find it a tad bit ironic that it took hours for the Hungarian police to deploy rubber bullets and water cannons to a protest that was nothing compared to the current events in the UK.
More here for those who are interested. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_protests_in_Hungary#Monday.2C_October_23.2C_2006)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKa4T8F66m0&feature=feedu
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Ahh, we had one of those a few years back.
When riots turn into shoplifting, people are no longer rioting because of the original reason.
Sanity will return... eventually.
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Funny how the week after I leave London stuff happens.
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Funny how the week after I leave London stuff happens.
well go back and restore order then
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Funny how the week after I leave London stuff happens.
well go back and restore order then
...I don't think adding a snail into the mess will make anything better.
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Clearly too many people have been listening to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvR_6C9_6Bk) on loop.
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Clearly too many people have been listening to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvR_6C9_6Bk) on loop.
Old school, though it was going to be Kaiser Chiefs
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Summer's here and the time is right for fighting in the street... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QiZcVRbAeM).
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Libya are trying to play the card of 'The English government must go!', whilst Iran are urging the UK not to be so violent to the protestors...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-14471921
Ironic how they don't mention the difference in the number of state-created casualties from the rioting and protests in the UK...
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Reminds me of the time I saw Press TV (Iran state television) talking about the Ian Tomlinson controversy during the Iran riots.
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...and here comes the overreaction?
http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2011/08/11/247595/Government-will-crack-down-on-rioters-using-social-media-says-PM-David.htm
"Free flow of information can be used for good. But it can also be used for ill. So we are working with the police, the intelligence services and industry to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality."
Government banning of individuals from websites? Cutting people off from popular forms of communication?
Imagine if instead of banning people from using Twitter or Facebook, they were banning them from using phones or the internet altogether? Would we act differently?
What do you folks think?
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...and here comes the overreaction?
http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2011/08/11/247595/Government-will-crack-down-on-rioters-using-social-media-says-PM-David.htm
"Free flow of information can be used for good. But it can also be used for ill. So we are working with the police, the intelligence services and industry to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality."
Government banning of individuals from websites? Cutting people off from popular forms of communication?
Imagine if instead of banning people from using Twitter or Facebook, they were banning them from using phones or the internet altogether? Would we act differently?
What do you folks think?
atm it is just talk. I can certainly see powers to allow greater monitoring in UK based networks, though the fact that many social networking sites are US based will scupper attempts outside our borders. But yes it reads like all the scary parts of China's attitude to international communications.
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Order out of chaos. Let the protests get out of hand, till people ask or beg for more protection, then bring in the solution, more police state measures.
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...and here comes the overreaction?
http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2011/08/11/247595/Government-will-crack-down-on-rioters-using-social-media-says-PM-David.htm
"Free flow of information can be used for good. But it can also be used for ill. So we are working with the police, the intelligence services and industry to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality."
Government banning of individuals from websites? Cutting people off from popular forms of communication?
Imagine if instead of banning people from using Twitter or Facebook, they were banning them from using phones or the internet altogether? Would we act differently?
What do you folks think?
Less democracy for better security! :D
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I actually did point out to my friends that the police might be deliberately allowing the riots in order to make sure that the worst troublemakers are in jail during the Olympics! :D
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http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2011/08/race-citizenship-and-uk-riots-has-david-cameron-gone-too-far/41247/
"Currently, with the support of Prime Minister David Cameron, plans are underway to cut benefits and evict even the families of rioters and looters from their homes, the Guardian reports. "
Want to have a politically expedient way of reducing social welfare? Make a universal bad guy out of people involved in the riots.
The article also goes into how race is playing a role both in the riots and in the handling of them.
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http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2011/08/race-citizenship-and-uk-riots-has-david-cameron-gone-too-far/41247/
"Currently, with the support of Prime Minister David Cameron, plans are underway to cut benefits and evict even the families of rioters and looters from their homes, the Guardian reports. "
Want to have a politically expedient way of reducing social welfare? Make a universal bad guy out of people involved in the riots.
The article also goes into how race is playing a role both in the riots and in the handling of them.
The political outcome was always going to be messy, and where people were significantly involved this is an avenue that should be explored, certainly sanctioning offenders, though perhaps not fully cutting benefits, it also needs to be moderated with factors like judicial sentences imposed. As for eviction from housing, it should not be used unless goods stolen were being stored there certainly the tenants of social housing as per their terms of tenancy not to use the house for illegal activities it should be considered.
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Plans aren't underway, their was an online petition thing that reached the required number of votes for it to be discussed in parliament is all. It will be discussed, but ministers have made it quite clear that courts will have the final say.
Whilst it is true that some rioters have been issued eviction notices, this comes under a completely different social housing clause that the people signed before they recieved the housing. Basically, if a family is moved onto a housing estate and members of that family have criminal records already, they sign an agreement stating that they accept that their keeping the housing relies entirely on them maintaining the peace.
As for benefit cuts, it's a silly idea for two reasons, first it assume that everyone who looted was on benefits, secondly, all it would do is create excuses for more theft. I could understand them losing a small fraction per payment to go towards compensation, however, that system is already in place for criminals who recieve benefits.