Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: Droid803 on August 17, 2011, 09:23:19 pm
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I just wanted to bring it up again, since apparently the shine textures thread isn't the place to talk about it.
Is there one?
I can't imaging it would be difficult to maintain seeing as you guys use SVN.
Whenever you delete something from it, just paste it into a separate SVN for the compatibility pack...etc etc.
So, is there one/will there be one?
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wut?
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Basically consists of old effects/maps that get removed (specifically tiles).
Plenty of things use them as dependencies.
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A lot of older mods use tile textures that have been renamed or removed entirely from the modern media-VPs. This will only get worse as more and more ships get UVed. This means that when the game fins them, it finds the ugly old shinemapless, glowmapless, 256 colour low-res retail versions of those texs instead of the fancy new ones that someone, at some point, worked hard to improve. It's a step backwards for a lot of mods.
[EDIT]Ninjaed by Droid. :(
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Well, a couple points.
Yes, the shine maps thread is not the place to discuss this. Here is perfect.
Why can't anyone open the old MVPs and rip out the tile maps in question and make the pack themselves? This is a totally honest question and not meant to be condescending. I'm not entirely convinced that this is something that FSU needs to do to for the sake of every old mod out there. We have a lot of work that we do. Currently we have 20 models in our WIPs folder... not to mention keeping up with all the new SCP additions... In short we've got a lot of work on our hands and most of us have other mods we are working on at the same time. We have to prioritize.. and maintaining yet another VP isn't high on our priorities right now. (Zacam can correct me if I'm wrong.)
Those old models should probably be UV'd anyway... or at least texture baked to a single map... (I understand that a lot of people aren't capable of this.)
I hope this didn't come off as mean or rude. I'm just trying to explain our position the best I can recall from the last time we talked about it.
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Because I don't have something that lets me compare versions. You do.
I don't have access to the SVN logs, so I don't know exactly what has been changed.
Do you know how harder it would be to compare every single file to find all the differences?
Do you know how much easier it would be if I just had a massive list of which files to copy and paste?
Do you know how much easier it would be to just do along the way while changes are made?
Long story short, the SVN log makes all the difference. That is why "just anyone" can't just open the old MVPs and rip out the tile maps, because finding which ones were ripped out would take longer than actually ripping them out. You're busy, I'm busy. You don't have time to do something that takes maybe two extra seconds every commit? :doubt: Well I don't have time to spend two plus hours comparing files in VPs.
I don't see how it would cut significantly into your time, while I do see how it would cut significantly into mine for me to do this because I don't have access to the SVN logs.
So, unless you're just going to give me (or anyone else interested in maintaining this) SVN access, I still think it's better for someone within FSU to maintain the package. I'm not trying to sound rude or entitled or anything even though I may come off as that, but it would be far more efficient if someone that actually has access to the list of things that have changed to assemble the package over someone doing things blindly.
Hell, give me SVN access and I'll finish it a day, and then it'll be two seconds for everyone to keep it updated whenever a commit is made to the finalized part... :doubt: Stuff that goes on in the WIP folders or whatever doesn't concern this at all...its two seconds every time something is finalized, and stuff is cleaned up...
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You assume at this point that it would be simple just because I have a log...
No, I'd have to first know the names of all the tile maps previously removed (which is not readily apparent in the log/filename), find the commit where they were deleted, restore them, move them to a new folder, and then I can maintain from there.
I'm not going to be pulled into comparing who's time is more valuable.... All I'm saying is that it's not a priority compared to the other work I'd rather do.
Besides, all you had to do was ask nicely.. :doubt: If you want to do it, then I'm sure Zacam would be more than happy to give you the read-only login info to the SVN...
As an afterthought.. You don't really need to compare every file. Just open the old VPs and rip every single tile map out and put them in their own VP because it's likely that all the tile maps will go bye bye, long-term.
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This may or may not have any bearing, but if someone wants to dissect the older Media VPs to find what textures might need to be salvaged for such an undertaking, I have all the Media VPs stretching as far back as 3.6.8, still stored on my hard drive.
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This compatibility pack thing is going to happen. There's nothing wrong with the idea.
However, one thing that should be understood is that despite them being used in that way, the mvps are NOT a general purpose repository of textures and assets. They are made specifically to improve FS2 retail, nothing more, nothing less. As such, keeping old textures and assets around just because someone, somewhere depends on a specific asset being in a specific state is not an option.
One thing that could help us though is if you could give us a list of textures you need.
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CapVTile*
cruiser02*
cruiser03*
cruiser03x*
For the next mediavps version:
capital03*
capital05*
tsoup*
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also supertile* for the next version (sath textures)
I have no clue what has vanished before 3.6.10 Beta :(
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tcov*, ctile*, capital01-*,install01-*,doctile* series [Deimos, Aeolus, Orion, Arcadia, Ganymede] - needed for Shadow Genesis.
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capital04*
CruisTileS*
CorvSTile*
if/whenever the Demon/Rakshasa get their htl ver. finished (and someone bakes the Moloch)
and then there's the AWACs/Gas Miner tiles that I can't come up with off the top of my head, a surprising number of models use those...
AWACTile*
miner2t*
I think it was, not entirely certain.
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capital# (hecate textures). if anyone bothers baking that one too.
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tcov*, ctile*, capital01-*,install01-*,doctile* series [Deimos, Aeolus, Orion, Arcadia, Ganymede] - needed for Shadow Genesis.
Except all of those are still in the mediavps?
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Depends how far along that HTL Arcadia is. Doesn't seem like the Gany/Deimos/Orion are gonna change.
And aren't the Aeolus ones already gone? The HTL one uses a single UVmap already.
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Again.. I suggest the idea that someone just get a list of ALL tile maps, find the newer versions and then drop them in their own pack.. no maintenance required... if a model gets HTL'd and the tiles removed from the MVPs, no change necessary... Since apparently people are listing tiles they want in the pack and not just ones that have been removed.
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I half-wonder if it'd be more efficient just to take the tile maps from the 3.6.10 Media VPs and subtract out any of the files in there that happen to coexist or conflict with those in the 3.6.12 Media VPs. That should pretty much cover all the bases, right?
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We have a lot of work that we do. Currently we have 20 models in our WIPs folder...
Sorry a good chunk of that is my doing, not necessarily a bad thing though for a couple of months there all I was doing was spewing out shivan models.
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Aeolus uses single texture but old tile textures are still present in MediaVPs. In my opinion, the best option is removing all no longer needed textures [like Aeolus' ones] and put them in separate package dedicated for modders.
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FSU tilemap pack v1: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=77834.0
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My 2 cents:
Would be useful to have a kind of automatic "redirection" or compatibility handling system, so when a an error occurs when some mod asks for a retail resource it could be redirected by this system to the latest installed FS2O/MVP ones. Also a similar tool, to go and automatically update a given old mod to point to the newest resources. I suppose FSU has already standard files & resources to point at if any new mod that someone might want to develop, if not I think you should have one. Also a way to address the new additions that coders/artists add all the time to FSU and their own mods.
In short, standards, a harmonious & easy way to address resources for FSU & mods.
Also I think would be also useful to have a tool that indicates the modder that the resource, for example, is standard but not available and give a list of available replacements, with thumb views if possible, if they're tiles or other graphic resources. I don't have a clue what tool set you need to develop a mod or FSU, but I think would be nice to have the tools I mentioned, on the fly, integrated in the tool set, to continue developing without leaving your developing environment and lose inspiration/concentration.
If what I suggest already exists, the better, I hope that is the case.
Cheers.
PS: I'm attaching 'fs2_open.log' because I found error even though I can play the game just fine; can anyone tell me what those errors are?. Are they old resources-related or something else, I have made a clean SSE2 install with MediaVP both 3.6.12, fresh pilot, only with 'aqmouse' & 'Shields' mods active.
For convenience I have selected the error below, with 1 line before and 1 after so you can locate better where the error is. I hope it helps and not confuse you instead.
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka! Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'! Error code = 5.
TBM => Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...
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texture_pool: creating new 1360x768 texture
Wokka! Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'! Error code = 5.
TBM => Starting parse of 'mv_effects-sdf.tbm' ...
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TBM => Starting parse of 'mv_effects-mfl.tbm' ...
Wokka! Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'! Error code = 5.
TBM => Starting parse of 'mv_effects-amr.tbm' ...
---
TrackIR Init Failed - 1
Movie Error: Unable to open 'intro' movie in any supported format.
Got event GS_EVENT_GAME_INIT (49) in state NOT A VALID STATE (0)
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IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x25d2520e, IBX checksum: 0xb4c1376d -- "mx-50.pof"
DDS ERROR: Couldn't open 'wep-mx50-shine.dds' -- DDS was in an unsupported/unknown format
Loading model 'debris01.pof'
[attachment deleted by a ninja]
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I... Uh.. hmmm...
Ok, well first of all, FSU is not in the business of making sure that every old mod out there remains compatible with the latest MediaVPs. We make sure that FS2 still plays like FS2. Beyond that however, we are willing to lend a hand, answer questions, etc. with the mod designers out there to ensure a quick transition to the latest release. However, a tool like you suggest simply seems like way more work than it's worth.
Besides that, there are already standards of sorts. In general, if it is an asset from retail you can bet that the new asset will be as close to drop-in compatible as possible. The issue this specific thread addresses is the removal of upgraded retail tile maps because models nowadays aren't being tilemapped. That issue has been solved with a tile map package that we'll keep updated.
Your issues don't seem entirely related, and off the top having only looked over your log highlights... I'm going to guess something was installed incorrectly or you are using a mod that is built for an older MediaVPs.
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SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka! Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'! Error code = 5.
TBM => Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...
this is more of a note than an error, basically its saying there is no scripts running with the mod so is only of concern if there are supposed to be scripts
TBM => Starting parse of 'mv_effects-mfl.tbm' ...
Wokka! Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'! Error code = 5.
TBM => Starting parse of 'mv_effects-amr.tbm' ...
again an optional table so no issues there apart from i though MVP uses an armour table for the penetrating weapon hits?
TrackIR Init Failed - 1
Movie Error: Unable to open 'intro' movie in any supported format.
Got event GS_EVENT_GAME_INIT (49) in state NOT A VALID STATE (0)
your cinematic files use the retail and depreciated file format
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x25d2520e, IBX checksum: 0xb4c1376d -- "mx-50.pof"
DDS ERROR: Couldn't open 'wep-mx50-shine.dds' -- DDS was in an unsupported/unknown format
This is the interesting one and would suggest a corrupt shine map file.
ohh and you should be able to attach log, tbm and tbl files directly to a forum post here without needing to use a zip as a container file
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The various tbl warnings are meaningless. scripting.tbl and armor.tbl are almost never used, because using the associated tbms (-sct and -amr) is much more convenient. interface.tbl does not work and has not worked ever.
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@mjn.mixael: I have seen mods that might have improvements that could benefit the entire community, like shaders and stuff, instead they're exclusive to a single mod, so IMO what I think you guys lack here is organization and seems nobody is interested in doing so, or at least that organization is not apparent to me from the dozens of post I have read in every thread, so what I suggested was a small organization point, for better handling of resources, a more efficient way so people don't get lost wondering, making posts taking unnecessarily your time you need for other things. What I wanted was tools to locate resources faster, in a better way, but well, what do I know... as I wrote, my 2 cents...
And my problem is realted since that mx-50 is a retail item and I thought and the shine file I thought was new effect that wasn't working on the old missile much like the tiles with newer resources, so from that POV my .log is related. Nothing installed wrong, I did as I wrote and all is OK, I just ran the debug version to check if everything was actually OK and I found those error messages.
@headdie: thx for the clarification, I'll look into that file.
I upload in .7z because I like efficiency: I found no need to move files uncompressed over the Internet since is not that fast yet, not for evreybody, not for me, and the bandwidth could be spared for others to use, hence I rather prefer send compressed files over the Internet; besides 7.zip is opensource freeware and probably the 1 of the best, if not best, compressor out there, the file I sent is compressed 5.62:1. Also I save space on the server, which I think it also helps, because is efficient.
@E: Thx for the clarification. Would be better to get rid of useless references?
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I have seen mods that might have improvements that could benefit the entire community, like shaders and stuff, instead they're exclusive to a single mod,
Wrong. There is very little that is exclusive to a single mod nowadays, except for custom models or music. Things like the shaders, which have been around for over a year now, are publically released. That a given mod decides to incorporate them as a required feature is a consequence of that (And seriously, as the guy who co-wrote the current shaders, I will incorporate them in any mod I am part of).
Second, the tool you want. What is it supposed to do? It sounds to me like it's supposed to work in exactly the same way as the current mod system works. Which would make this tool redundant at best, a nuisance at worst. I mean, as someone who said he wanted to get into coding, why don't you try to implement it?
so IMO what I think you guys lack here is organization and seems nobody is interested in doing so
I am sure Zacam will have some choice words here, but just for myself, I think your misconceptions are amusing. Do you honestly think projects like the SCP and FSU would be possible without some fairly strict organization? Or maybe I am misreading what you were trying to say here. Please elaborate on that point some more if I am.
I upload in .7z because I like efficiency: I found no need to move files uncompressed over the Internet since is not that fast yet, not for evreybody, not for me, and the bandwidth could be spared for others to use, hence I rather prefer send compressed files over the Internet; besides 7.zip is opensource freeware and probably the 1 of the best, if not best, compressor out there, the file I sent is compressed 5.62:1. Also I save space on the server, which I think it also helps, because is efficient.
All of that is true. But you are talking about compressing a file that is 38 kb to one that is 6 kb large. In this case, the increase in inconvenience (because one has to uncompress the file before opening it) far outweighs the space saving potential.
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with Mod.ini able reference multiple other mods there is little need for different mod groups to co-ordinate. Also once a mod is released unless otherwise stated everything in it is generally considered a public resource anyway. Lastly this is a fan community where everything is done on a voluntary basis for the benefit of the community, so outside of the mod teams and site admins/moderators there is no one person or group in control making forced co-ordination impossible (not to mention generally unwanted) and with resources stashed all over the place, the closest thing there is to a central depositary is freespacemods.net but then there is significant number of assets not stored there or only stored there as a part of a released mod. All this makes any attempt to make a universal asset catalogue and download tool a colossal project that would need constant maintenance and as it stands the community has difficulty keeping the damn installers working and up-to-date at times.
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In other words, if you think it's such a great idea, you do it, smartass. This modding community is not our whole lives. Most of us have school, jobs, families, and other offline concerns. This is something that is done in spare time. Hard Light Productions is NOT a game development company like Volition or Valve. It's a gathering place for modders who do things, again, in their SPARE TIME.
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So you want a tool that can read the modpack, debug it, version it, and then search HLP for missing or updated assets? OK. This tool will need to be able to read all the various mod related file types (images, models, tables, sounds, etc.) and VPs. It will need to be able to compare checksums and MD5 tags. It will need to be able to compare file versions so some sort of versioning system will be necessary... I suppose our SVN could work for that. It will need a downloader. It will need an up-to-date catalog of all available assets...
Sounds to me like you want something to flat out mod for you, which is not a tool that will be simple to create. Not to mention that anyone who is looking to do all of that, shouldn't be relying on an auto-tool. Mods should be run with the MediaVPs they were made for, nothing more, nothing less. If they are to be updated, FSCRP is that way -->. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?board=146.0)
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Wrong. There is very little that is exclusive to a single mod nowadays, except for custom models or music. Things like the shaders, which have been around for over a year now, are publically released. That a given mod decides to incorporate them as a required feature is a consequence of that (And seriously, as the guy who co-wrote the current shaders, I will incorporate them in any mod I am part of).
Second, the tool you want. What is it supposed to do? It sounds to me like it's supposed to work in exactly the same way as the current mod system works. Which would make this tool redundant at best, a nuisance at worst. I mean, as someone who said he wanted to get into coding, why don't you try to implement it?
No so wrong because I have seen threads with mod specific coding to improve some their mods and I was the only one making a late suggestion to share that with the community on some cases on some I just passed, I think if they wanted to share they would have done so, or maybe the sharing is automatic in some way and is not apparent to the forum reader.
Your condescending and pedant tone only make you look unwise for a guy that I assume is smart given the kind of work you do and the previous answers you gave me, but as you said I could be mistaken by assuming too much. I see you can't take constructive critics well, you're all worked out now, shame, I think I assumed too much again. I wrote if that was already implemented the better and I hoped it was already implemented, you didn't need to redundant on that one, a simple "already done in this tool would have sufficed", but you're pissed off, that's OK, I thought this was a friendly place to share ideas & contructive criticism, I never intended to be pedant I only was giving suggestions, but well ... no wonder many complain that when you share your ideas here you get bully-banned by mods, so be it.
I am sure Zacam will have some choice words here, but just for myself, I think your misconceptions are amusing. Do you honestly think projects like the SCP and FSU would be possible without some fairly strict organization? Or maybe I am misreading what you were trying to say here. Please elaborate on that point some more if I am.
Maybe I'm amusing but at least I'm being positive & not trying to download my passive aggressiveness to another. I do honestly think so yes, because nobody give any reference to any standard as such, only "this is invalid", "this should be like this", or "make it like that", no reference to formats, docs, tutorials, etc. I have seen people making fairly thorough guides but that's about it, maybe that's ll you need, but somehow I don't think so for the nature of the questions on modding.
All of that is true. But you are talking about compressing a file that is 38 kb to one that is 6 kb large. In this case, the increase in inconvenience (because one has to uncompress the file before opening it) far outweighs the space saving potential.
If you're on the server decompressing there, yes is inefficient but if you're on another PC is not since you can delete after checking it out, and keep the compressed file if necessary. How come 1 "enter" key press or 1 double-click is an inconvenience? are you handicapped? I always prefer compressed files to download even the small one, I've learned to appreciate that once I have downloaded a lot of files. I think you're just upset and want to find inconvenience where there is none just to piss me off too.
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No so wrong because I have seen threads with mod specific coding to improve some their mods and I was the only one making a late suggestion to share that with the community on some cases on some I just passed, I think if they wanted to share they would have done so, or maybe the sharing is automatic in some way and is not apparent to the forum reader.
What "mod-specific coding" are you talking about? If it's features in FSO that were developed by a specific mod team to fulfill that mods' needs, then I have to tell you you're wrong because once it's in the engine, it's not mod-specific anymore. Those things are automatically shared to everyone because the engine is shared by everyone.
If you are talking about tables for a specific mod (like Blue Planet's AI table, or scripts used by a specific mod) then those are only exclusive for as long as the mod that is using them isn't released; in some cases, specific features will be given public test runs (as was the case with the BP AI, or the new shaders). And yeah, once it's released, it's released, and there is only one case in recent history where the authors actively forbade the use of their assets outside of a specific mod (that case being The Babylon Project, and only covering the original TBP 3.4 release). I am pretty sure that, if you want to copy a feature from another mod, there is nothing stopping you from doing so. And if you want to know how something was done, then asking the people who did it is always possible. Not to mention that most things can be figured out through extensive use of the wiki.
I see you can't take constructive critics well, you're all worked out now, shame, I think I assumed too much again. I wrote if that was already implemented the better and I hoped it was already implemented, you didn't need to redundant on that one, a simple "already done in this tool would have sufficed", but you're pissed off, that's OK, I thought this was a friendly place to share ideas & contructive criticism, I never intended to be pedant I only was giving suggestions, but well ... no wonder many complain that when you share your ideas here you get bully-banned by mods, so be it.
Unless I am actively stating that I am acting in my capacity as a moderator, it should be assumed that I am not doing so.
That being said, I do apologize for my tone here. I definitely was somewhat annoyed, and it shouldn't have come through as much. My apologies for that.
Now, regarding your specific proposals, as headdie said, they are good ideas, but they are not really workable for us. An online cross-referencing tool (and it would have to be online) is only as good as the references used. Updating those references, and keeping the infrastructure behind it running (servers do cost money, after all) is a nontrivial task, and risks falling to obsolescence once the people running it are losing interest.
Maybe I'm amusing but at least I'm being positive & not trying to download my passive aggressiveness to another. I do honestly think so yes, because nobody give any reference to any standard as such, only "this is invalid", "this should be like this", or "make it like that", no reference to formats, docs, tutorials, etc. I have seen people making fairly thorough guides but that's about it, maybe that's ll you need, but somehow I don't think so for the nature of the questions on modding.
This is what the wiki is for. In cases where the wiki is unclear, you can and are expected to ask questions so that it can be improved. Almost every bit of documentation regarding proper table formatting etc can be found there.
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@headdie: Oh I see why this looks disorganized, because is not unified and apparently there are not spare people to do so, well maybe eventually HLP will have. I would do it if I knew how to, repositories and hosting websites are not my thing, at least not for a long while. Forced no, I never said anything about that, I know all this is voluntary so forced would be a monumental mistake, but yes a universal repository sounds about right but ia not what I wanted, not so big, at least not at start, only local PC resources. I know the mods are suppose to be all open since this is a place to share but what worries me is that if there are resources spread around that don't get uploaded to a repository maybe people would do the job 2, 3 or more times when is already done or a problem solved somewhere.
@CaptJosh: smartass? what is your problem? why don't you calm down and use your brain before opening your big mouth? I already know all you have posted.
@mjn.mixael: well, that's and interesting elaboration on my idea, but I never said it should be like that, you just extrapolated my idea. Why people don't actually understand the scope when is clearly indicated? The tool I proposed was to be local, web based maybe later, not version nor debug, just find the file references that are wrong say which mod they belong to and which mods have them, you would have a directory with downloaded mods, VPs, etc and the tool would look in normal, .zip, .7z files searching for those files. Debug and version update could be on later versions to make the tool even more complete
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You don't understand... in order to know which references are wrong, you need to debug the modpack. Now whether the tool does that or is capable of parsing the debug log could go either way.
You keep saying you would do it if you knew how... but those of us that know how are telling you that this not an easy idea and it likely requires much more than you think.
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Your condescending and pedant tone only make you look unwise for a guy that I assume is smart given the kind of work you do and the previous answers you gave me, but as you said I could be mistaken by assuming too much.
Welcome to the HLP, no one has really arrived until they get hit with The E scorn. Give it a few months and it wont bother you so much. Once you get through the thick layer of questions The E finds basic/simple/n00b/not researched properly/ill considered, then The E is ok and I think enjoys questions and problems that require serious though. We all suffer it on the receiving because usually the results are worth it in the end and enjoy watching it when ppl are on the wrong end of it.
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@E: I accept your apologies and I offer apologies if I provoked for any offense I'd had made to you, no hard feelings, we're all fallible.
I remember Diaspora & Wing Commander Saga mods that has their websites the other here I don't remember since I have read some posts of some threads of some of the many mods and I couldn't get a fix on which ones have mod-coding, too many post read, I'm lost.
Yeah, this tool should be online but with a local cache to avoid re-downloading, easy upgradeable to add new types of references when needed.
The wiki, I see... yes the cost of the servers and running something that is voluntary must as limiting as frustrating in many ways. I didn't know about TBP, too bad, is a big mod, it has a lot to offer.
@mjn.mixael: I see... well I'm sure it must be more complicated than my idea, most if not all implementations are, too bad, I was hopping it wasn't and even that would be a spare coder to do it, well that one crushed then... (mayday, mayday, maydaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh!)
@headdie: Is OK, this is bound to happen as part of interpersonal relations, is just 1 type of friction totally random that could occur, a n00b making a proposal that seems OK but he won't implement & the ones that can, can't spare it, answering forums posts when he could be developing, etc. As a PC tech I know about a lot of extra unrewarded work; but we managed well I think and is all behind now, that's the important thing, work problems out.
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As far as server space to download files, http://gameupdates.org would be handy (server-seeded torrents), but, with nothing else in place... well, at least it could serve as a backup / alternate repository to take the load off your FTP servers.