Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: MatthTheGeek on September 02, 2011, 08:31:36 pm
-
*** MatthTheGeek raises flame shield ***
(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/1608/bpalignmentchart.png)
:cool: Discuss
-
Steele is not chaotic
Vasudan quote doesn't work
Why are vishnans evil?
Also, GTVA should be lawful good :p
-
There's more shades than just black and white. I doubt either the GTVA or UEF can be labeled good or neutral more than the other.
-
Steele is not chaotic
Doesn't play by the book. Commands his destroyer like if it was a fighter. Gentleman psychopath.
Why are vishnans evil?
Is that really a question ?
Vasudan quote doesn't work
Feel free to propose something else. Canon quotes only.
-
How do we know the skin color of steel, that is mentioned or implied in wih or it just a random photo?
-
BP team has mentioned that the character of Steele was influenced by the Operative in the movie Serenity, whose actor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiwetel_Ejiofor) shares the same first name as him.
So, the skin color isn't exactly BP-canon, but that's as close as you'll get.
-
This alignment chart was put together after a serious debate in the Wings of Dawn IRC channel. Yes, it really was in #wod and not #bp. Come visit us if you can stand the sheer inanity that happens there.
-
hehe, cool stuff :yes:
-
I don't think the Beis are lawful. They put their principles - which they attributed as GTVA's principles - ahead of the legal authority of their superior officers in the GTVA. Lawful people tend to put legal authority ahead of their own opinions, adopting the authority's principles as their own. As they both are fairly opinionated, it doesn't seem right to call them neutral either, but chaotic good doesn't seem to fit either. I would say Sam Bei might be closer to lawful, but still in Neutral Good territory, while Admiral Bei would be somewhere between Lawful Neutral and Neutral Good.
Simms can seem Chaotic Good, but there are some nuances of Chaotic Neutral there as well.
Steele isn't really Chaotic. He plans, and plans, and his contingencies have contingencies. Planning is not a strong suite for Chaotic alignments, I think. Steele's characterization puts him more in the True Neutral, Lawful Neutral, or possibly Neutral Evil alignment. He certainly has no qualms about using people as means to an end - but whether his motivation are his own goals (neutral evil) such as promotion of his career, obeying orders from superior officers to his best ability (lawful neutral) or just doing the best job he can in the position he is at, without much personal feelings about it to motivate him (true neutral), it's anyone's guess... alternate character interpretations are fun either way. Personally, I'm leaning toward neutral evil or lawful neutral.
Shivans and Vishnans can both seem evil from Humanity's perspective (with best available information). They both seem willing to disregard any other species' opinion and well-being to fulfill their own, unknown (so far) goals.
Neither of them are lawful, but I'd say Shivans are more willing to blindly obey their own rule set, while Vishnans might make exceptions to their rules. I'd swap their alignments to Lawful Evil for Shivans, and Neutral Evil for Vishnans; although you might want to consider Lawful Neutral/True Neutral and Lawful Good/Neutral Good for them as well - depending on what perspective you have on their actions and motivations.
Remember that character alignments are always supposed to be in effect from the character's own perspective. It would be possible to have a story with a lawful good character doing horrible things that they thought were good and just, while it could seem evil to everyone else. The main difference between lawful good and evil is that LG character sees the legal authority as something that everyone need to adhere to above everything else, and if the legal authority would require them, say, executing someone, they would do it if it was the law (or they believed it was required by the law). LE characters see rules as something to exploit to advance their own goals; for example manipulating people into doing something because otherwise they would break the law.
Question here is... are Shivans or Vishnans more interested with advancing their own goals and plans with their actions at the expense of everything and everyone else (which would make them evil), or do they have other motives? Do they self-actualize or do they feel like they have responsibilities or duties to perform?
;7
-
I was preparing volcanic rage to wash over the 'good' UEF in support of my beloved Tevs, but i found myself stymied by a flame shield.
Not today, my compliments on a match well played, helm take me back to the General Discussion board!
-
I don't think the Beis are lawful. They put their principles - which they attributed as GTVA's principles - ahead of the legal authority of their superior officers in the GTVA. Lawful people tend to put legal authority ahead of their own opinions, adopting the authority's principles as their own. As they both are fairly opinionated, it doesn't seem right to call them neutral either, but chaotic good doesn't seem to fit either. I would say Sam Bei might be closer to lawful, but still in Neutral Good territory, while Admiral Bei would be somewhere between Lawful Neutral and Neutral Good.
The Beis obey to GTVA's moral laws above all, even after the GTVA itself betrayed em. They're definitely lawful.
For the rest, keep in mind that :
1) An alignment chart doesn't allow for all the nuances of gray you have in BP. I had to make choices to fit all boxes.
2) You can discuss all you want, but an alignment chart is and cannot not be subjective. This is how I see alignments, more or less due to the limitations of the model, and I have my own arguments to back them up, but it depends a lot on where you place your own point of view compared to the characters involved.
-
cannot not be.
yes
it clearly can be.
double negatives like a not unnoob. :P
-
Gah
See, alignment charts work for some conflicts, but for WiH it just doesn't describe the variables the conflict is based on. Both the UEF and GTVA are "good", and in fact they could both be called "lawful good" (the GTVA a bit more than the UEF on this). Hell, the Gaian Effort calls themselves "good". The difference is how each of the factions arrives at their definition- The GTVA is utilitarian and hardened by the horrific experience of two Shivan Incursions, the GTVA is deontological and motivated by free thinking which has inspired a sense of pacifism, and the Gefs are just insane envirofundies.
The crux of the matter is that neither side would deny that the opposition is doing what they _think_ is good; they'd just say their definition of "good" is wrong.
-
This is pretty interesting. I'm somewhat familiar with alignment charts, are they from D&D?
I like how you put vishnans as Lawful and Evil. They really do fit there, especially after what I have been hearing about WIH:R2.
I see shivans as Chaotic and Evil more than Evil and Neutral, because they dismember stars and generally kill everything because it's there. Maybe I don't understand what Chaotic is supposed to imply in an alignment chart.
The GEF might be evil because they resort to violence to get their views across, but chaotic? I guess the quote you provided drives the point.
About Simms, the more I think about it the more it fits, I found some quotes which show such characteristics:
All from 'the plunder'
Indus: And...that's it for the escort! Bravo zulu, Wargods, we just cleaned house with a front-line tactical unit.
Yangtze: Should we take a moment to pay our respects to the enemy dead? What do you think, pilots?"
Simms: I think we've spent plenty of time respecting them already, Yangtze.
Ng'Mei: Agincourt, I'm reading activity in your logistics bays. Be warned that if you make any attempt to destroy your own supplies or equipment, our marines will kill you and your crew.
Simms: And we really don't want to do that, Captain Sibrine. War crimes really perturb my inner calm, you know what I mean? This is serious Zen **** you're endangering here."
Ng'Mei: "It's a cold, angry universe out there. Maybe they need big ships to feel safe."
Simms: "Well, they're not safe as long as we're around. Am I right, wargods?"
Hmm... I forgot how well written WIH was.
-
If I remember right Chaotic was used for people who simply don't care how they do things (In the three major alignments), as long as it just gets the job done (Going as far as a Chaotic Good breaking rules while doing good at the same time). So for the GEFs to be Chaotic Evil, they don't care if they do take the Freighter, or just kill everyone instead, as long as they do something to **** everyone over, they've done their part.
-
The 3 UEF admirals also somewhat represent the sides, though I am not sure if it is good or neutral. Byrne is the lawful, Netreba is the neutral, Calder is the chaotic.
-
Fix link Matth