Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Grizzly on September 08, 2011, 02:55:38 am
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Two (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/sep/07/9-11-september-11-us) Articles (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/opinion/08iht-edmoisi08.html?ref=global) which are quite sceptic on if 9/11 really was this 'turning point in history' as many make it to be.
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Even calling it a detour implies you had to turn. Sorry first article, you refute yourself in your own title.
Turning points in history is inherently subjective to both definition and experience.
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I'd have to say, US nationalism and optimism have not been the same since. The way that people look at the government is different. . . if there was to be a single turning point in history, 9/11 is one.
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Sure, on an American scale, not necessarily a worldwide scale.
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Sure, on an American scale, not necessarily a worldwide scale.
Well, we have had something of a hegemony going on for a while, and that appears to be not only fading, but utterly collapsing, so a global scale, yes.
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Damn. I have to use Google Translate for this one (http://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fweblogs.nrc.nl%2Frechtenbestuur%2F2011%2F09%2F10%2Fna-911-schortte-het-westen-de-mensenrechten-op%2F)
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Another article about the impacts of September 11 - puts a lot of what I think about it's role in the past few decades much more eloquently than I ever could.
http://smh.com.au/opinion/politics/sifting-through-the-debris-for-real-legacy-of-attacks-20110910-1k2md.html
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The government, since the 1960's, has dropped drastically. Now, we have unrealible people that are greedy and poisoning America! No wonder parts of the world hates the USA.
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Wait wait wait. Are you implying the government was NOT full of unreliable, greedy people poisoning America before the '60s? Because you know... that's how it's always been really.
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The government, since the 1960's, has dropped drastically. Now, we have unrealible people that are greedy and poisoning America! No wonder parts of the world hates the USA.
. . . :wtf:
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Wait wait wait. Are you implying the government was NOT full of unreliable, greedy people poisoning America before the '60s? Because you know... that's how it's always been really.
it seems to be getting worse though. or more likely, we just know about more of it.
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I think you guys are just idealizing the past. Governments have always been **** and they're less **** now than they've been in a long time. I mean can you imagine if we still had monarchies, with a king doing WTFever he pleased?
What I'd be worried about is this god-damned war economy we've got going on and corporations having too much sway over the government.
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A more positive article (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/09/09/a_decade_of_resolve)
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A more positive article (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/09/09/a_decade_of_resolve)
The comments of people on that article makes it very entertaining.
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Just wanna say this in at least one nine eleven thread (I have started to just glaze over whenever I see "9/11" anywhere);
Ten years after Pearl Harbor were there fifty news articles a day on “remembering Pearl Harbor”?
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Were there 24-hour news networks or the internet around when Pearl Harbor happened?
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Or maybe the other 60 million dead stole some of the attention.
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There's also the distinct lack of civilian casualties.
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44458317/ns/technology_and_science-space/
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On Afghanistan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI_Cg-wt_Ms&feature=feedu)
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Were there 24-hour news networks or the internet around when Pearl Harbor happened?
So your answer to my question is "no"?
Or maybe the other 60 million dead stole some of the attention.
Guess the 130,000+ dead and two ten year long wars aren't enough this time around?
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Ten years after Pearl Harbor were there fifty news articles a day on “remembering Pearl Harbor”?
One moment, consulting with my male parental unit...
...answer is yes.
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Ten years after Pearl Harbor were there fifty news articles a day on “remembering Pearl Harbor”?
One moment, consulting with my male parental unit...
...answer is yes.
Really? I didn't know that. I believe you, could you ask them what it was like and how it compares to today?
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Guess the 130,000+ dead and two ten year long wars aren't enough this time around?
Yes, its bad enough. But these attacks were completely unexpected/specifically directed at US, while the whole world was burning in WW2. I think it makes it harder to digest/takes even more time to get over with.
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Here's an editorial from The Province (BC news paper)
(http://www.theprovince.com/opinion/editorial-cartoons/images/20110910.jpg)
I think that basically sums it up nicely
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Well, a lot of people died, two very iconic buildings were destroyed and people around the world lost their sense of security, because suddenly, a new threat arose, that could strike anytime, anywhere, at anybody (considering that WTC was in the middle of the most powerful country in the world). I think that in case of Pearl Harbor, people more or less expected it could happen, considering that Europe was already at war and Japan wasn't on the side that had US support. Not to mention 9/11 was aimed at civilians, not military. Soldiers (at least in theory) have "death in defense of their country" is a part of their contract and Pearl Harbor was a strictly military target, so Japanese attack was a logical thing to do (relatively speaking). 9/11 was caused by irrational beliefs, by people who simply wanted to kill as many people as possible (showing that they didn't even looked into Koran, which they value so much).
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Really? I didn't know that. I believe you, could you ask them what it was like and how it compares to today?
It was much more underplayed; this was the manner of the time, though, and the style of reporting was much less concerned with analysis or editorial value and much more with just-the-facts, so what meaning that has was obscured.
It was also much more interested in downstream effects, but then again there were vastly more and larger downstream effects to talk about. A lot of it mentioned Pearl Harbor only peripherally...but you could argue that Pearl Harbor was peripheral to the course of the war; it was one of many actions taken that day which would have provoked the United States to fight. 9/11 was singular. Pearl Harbor had to contend with Japan's attacks on the Philippines and Guam that same day, with the first invasion attempt for Wake within the week.
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I want add a correction to my last statement. The government downfall was with President Ragen aka Captain Spankpants/actor. We had our chance with Al Gore, but no. . . we had to elect a dumb president know as George Dubia Bush. (Excuse me while I up-churn my stomach)
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I want add a correction to my last statement. The government downfall was with President Ragen aka Captain Spankpants/actor. We had our chance with Al Gore, but no. . . we had to elect a dumb president know as George Dubia Bush. (Excuse me while I up-churn my stomach)
Highly doubtful...
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/08/30/gore_president_iraq/index.html
As long as the people in government remain the same, changing the person at the top doesn't accomplish much.
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That is true, Goober5000, but why is Germany switching to alternative fuel when America is still lacking behind? Answer: The German government went with the people's suggestion. That is an honest fact.
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I think you guys are just idealizing the past. Governments have always been **** and they're less **** now than they've been in a long time. I mean can you imagine if we still had monarchies, with a king doing WTFever he pleased?
What I'd be worried about is this god-damned war economy we've got going on and corporations having too much sway over the government.
The decline in the effectiveness of congress over the last 30 years is quite real (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/07/19/worst_congress_ever)
That is true, Goober5000, but why is Germany switching to alternative fuel when America is still lacking behind? Answer: The German government went with the people's suggestion. That is an honest fact.
I think you mean switching to alternative electricity sources, but in any event just because people want something doesn't mean it is the right decision. In the case of Germany that you mentioned, it's something that is based entirely on fear and ignorance which is causing them to look for some sort of enviro fantasy energy panacea that unfortunately doesn't exist. In reality Germany is actually building several new coal power plants, which is what will end up replacing nuclear, not wind or solar which are taxpayer funded boondoggles.
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Humanity has two paths: Redemption and we almost go into a golden age of peace or we can continue what we do and cruelly conquer our problems, thus wasting more human lives.
I believe there are smart people in this world; they just need the guts to come out and speak for themselves. One voice is more powerful then ten thousand. A man knew that. ;p
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I believe you came up with the two paths out of nowhere.
I think the US may well face a governmental collapse, but worse things have happened. Although its likely to be bad, I doubt it will be apocalypse bad.
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They kinda popped into my mind. I was thinking of Avatar to be honest.
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Humanity has two paths: Redemption and we almost go into a golden age of peace or we can continue what we do and cruelly conquer our problems, thus wasting more human lives.
the ****
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The 'golden age' for change was during the '60's that was our Presidents were stronger. I'm going on this by feeling, but it feels like the governments top thing on the list is to screw over America!
We just about forgot about Haiti! And we have Marsala Shall poisoning our waters, plus Artic drilling. My last rant is: Remember what happened to Japan and imagine that hapening here.
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This is why I'm so happy I live in Canada. I don't have to deal with all of this
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Actually, Deathfun, we not that far apart. I'm in Pennsylvannia. Maybe a couple hundred miles apart.
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I'm referring to all this stuff about American Politics/Government. I don't need to think about it
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I guess we are all human.
'Nuff said.
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If / when the US goes down, I'm betting we're gonna take a few countries down with us. Canada, for instance, makes a lot of money in trade with the US.
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Take down, no. Bring down, yes.
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I guess we speculate what will happen in the future and the effects will be, but for now, we have to wait and see. A very long wait, indeed.
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Take down, no.
We've never seen what happens when a nuclear-armed country goes completely down the ****ter, and we struggled mightily to prevent having to find out when the USSR did.
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Well if you're talking full out war against Canada, well then yes we'll more than likely be taken out. I was saying that from an economic standpoint
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I was thinking economically as well.
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Take down, no.
We've never seen what happens when a nuclear-armed country goes completely down the ****ter, and we struggled mightily to prevent having to find out when the USSR did.
At the rate things are going in Pakistan we may well find out in the next couple of decades......
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There have been more tense senerios in the past, and I believe we can get through them. When the dust cloud clears we'll rebuild and hopefully become a better people.