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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Grizzly on September 14, 2011, 05:56:50 am

Title: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Grizzly on September 14, 2011, 05:56:50 am
Damn. (http://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrc.nl%2Fnieuws%2F2011%2F09%2F14%2Fnog-nooit-leefden-zoveel-amerikanen-onder-de-armoedegrens%2F%23more-124542)

I do have one qeustion: This is the lowest level since 1993. What happened in 1993?
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Mort on September 14, 2011, 06:49:56 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_1990s_recession

I'm guessing that was it. Time to brush up on my chinese it seems
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Nuke on September 14, 2011, 10:06:55 am
vivisect the rich!
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Marcov on September 14, 2011, 09:19:01 pm
Isn't America going down as world power?

As much as I know, sooner or later China will be next world power.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Grizzly on September 15, 2011, 01:06:47 am
Isn't America going down as world power?

As much as I know, sooner or later China will be next world power.

Well, this might be an indication that the USA is indeed going down. However, it might not be a good indicator (A world power does not need to have equal income distribution). And China did get 10 years to catch up to the USA whilst it was busy fighting wars.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Scotty on September 15, 2011, 01:21:16 am
I'd also like to bring up that the poverty line is, by and large, rather arbitrary.  My family lives comfortably in a middle class lifestyle with almost zero debt (barring mortage) and enough disposable income to use on more than just basic needs.  This is less than $25,000 a year, single parent, three member household.  In other words, just barely above the official poverty line.  Yet, you could make absolutely zero argument aside from that line that my family is poor.  With a nice house (and a $1000/month mortgage), and more than just the basic necessities like a cell phone plan for all three of us, high speed internet and cable, two vehicles, and sending me through college.

tl;dr poverty line is probably better considered an 'at-risk indicator' than it is an absolute indicator of poverty.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Mongoose on September 15, 2011, 01:35:03 am
Yeah, the "poverty line" in the US is certainly liveable, albeit without much of a margin for unexpected expenses.  Still, it's a troubling statistic.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Mars on September 15, 2011, 04:27:51 am
I'm just above the poverty line. . . and I'd have to say, it's not terrible, but it's not like I'm going to concerts every other week. I can get food, and mostly bus passes, but some weeks I have to do without a little of one or the other.

EDIT: When you get down to it, the poverty line is supposed to indicate a point where all of your money goes into rent/food/heat/ cost of living type stuff, and it does a pretty good job of indicating that. Where I am I have probably $50 that doesn't go into clothing / feeding / sheltering myself, and the place I'm living now isn't even a legal residence.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Kosh on September 15, 2011, 07:45:37 am
I'd also like to bring up that the poverty line is, by and large, rather arbitrary.  My family lives comfortably in a middle class lifestyle with almost zero debt (barring mortage) and enough disposable income to use on more than just basic needs.  This is less than $25,000 a year, single parent, three member household.  In other words, just barely above the official poverty line.  Yet, you could make absolutely zero argument aside from that line that my family is poor.  With a nice house (and a $1000/month mortgage), and more than just the basic necessities like a cell phone plan for all three of us, high speed internet and cable, two vehicles, and sending me through college.

tl;dr poverty line is probably better considered an 'at-risk indicator' than it is an absolute indicator of poverty.


Just wait until you get whacked with a nice big medical expense.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Mobius on September 15, 2011, 07:50:47 am
...or other stuff like the necessity to buy a new car after an accident.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Scotty on September 15, 2011, 12:17:52 pm
Both of which are nicely covered by insurance, thank you very much.  I realize that a very big helping hand in that direction is that my dad is retired military, so I've got decent coverage, but if necessary I'm damn sure my dad would be able to come up with it.  Cars likewise (insured, that is), as is the house.  We only really use one vehicle, so we've got, in effect, a spare.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Kosh on September 15, 2011, 12:47:00 pm
Both of which are nicely covered by insurance, thank you very much.  I realize that a very big helping hand in that direction is that my dad is retired military, so I've got decent coverage, but if necessary I'm damn sure my dad would be able to come up with it.  Cars likewise (insured, that is), as is the house.  We only really use one vehicle, so we've got, in effect, a spare.


Retired military, so it must government insurance. Too bad the majority of people don't have access to it.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Sushi on September 15, 2011, 01:24:37 pm
Yeah, the "poverty line" in the US is certainly liveable, albeit without much of a margin for unexpected expenses.  Still, it's a troubling statistic.

Also keep in mind that the national "poverty line" is a fixed number, but living expenses vary wildly by region.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Mongoose on September 15, 2011, 02:15:31 pm
Yes, very true.  My family's modest 4-bedroom house would probably go for over $400k on the local market if we put it up for sale, which could practically buy you a small mansion in some parts of the South.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Mars on September 15, 2011, 03:42:19 pm
How are we talking about cars here? At 12,000 a year I can afford bus fare, but a car is way out of reach
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Polpolion on September 17, 2011, 05:25:32 pm
I'm on track to earn $10,000 this year and I'm perfectly fine.  :cool:

Spoiler:
My University tuition is covered by a met (http://www.michigan.gov/setwithmet/0,1607,7-237-43439---,00.html) plan, and by the time I exceed the credit limit I'll have saved up enough for the last few remaining credits. Also living in a cooperative helps. It's almost like cheating at life!
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: achtung on September 19, 2011, 08:55:21 am
Both of which are nicely covered by insurance, thank you very much.  I realize that a very big helping hand in that direction is that my dad is retired military, so I've got decent coverage, but if necessary I'm damn sure my dad would be able to come up with it.  Cars likewise (insured, that is), as is the house.  We only really use one vehicle, so we've got, in effect, a spare.

Most people with low income only have liability coverage for their vehicles, and they usually can't afford the premiums for health insurance.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: karajorma on September 20, 2011, 09:15:31 am
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-nobody-tells-you-about-being-poor/

Found that rather interesting when I first read it, and I thought it was relevant here.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Grizzly on September 20, 2011, 02:37:33 pm
I read trough that now, I think a lot of that only applies to America.

or atleast I hope so.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Polpolion on September 20, 2011, 05:22:02 pm
I read trough that now, I think a lot of that only applies to America.

or atleast I hope so.

I'm interested in hearing your reasoning behind this.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Sololop on September 20, 2011, 05:30:58 pm
...or other stuff like the necessity to buy a new car after an accident.

Wheres your insurance?
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Mars on September 20, 2011, 06:54:36 pm
Half the people I know drive without insurance, illegally, because they feel the need to own a car but can't afford to put gas in it AND pay for insurance.

(Half is an exaggeration, probably close to a third.)
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: achtung on September 20, 2011, 07:11:20 pm
...or other stuff like the necessity to buy a new car after an accident.

Wheres your insurance?

Most people with low income can not afford that kind of coverage (typically pooled into "full" coverage). They can only afford "basic liability" which only covers the expenses incurred on others, and their property, not the insured, or their property.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: karajorma on September 20, 2011, 07:41:49 pm
Yeah, that's why I linked to that article. It's a great example of how being poor keeps you poor because you have to buy cheaper things that break more often. Fully Comprehensive insurance is a great example of this. Poor people in general simply can't afford it, which means if they crash the car, they have no car.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Sololop on September 20, 2011, 09:05:45 pm
Yeah, depending on dozens of factors, Collision can be quite pricy.

Some people recommend public transit instead of a car to save gas. But lets say you have a fully paid off car, or a cheap used one, so theres no payments on it.

I put $20 of gas in my current vehicle to get back and forth to work and errans once per week on average. Totals $80 a month.

On the other hand, I can buy either an $80 Bus Pass good for one month, or Bus tickets, which is $16 for 12 tickets, I'd need 56 for a two-way trip every day in a 28-day (4-week example only month), totaling $74.48.

Doesn't seem that much cheaper. Also, a Bus Pass isn't worth it if you don't use it to it's fullest extent, and bus tickets are a total pain. Saving $6 doesn't seem like a great alternative.

Oh, regular fare is $2.25 per person. Mass Transit should REALLY be cheaper. It's crazy.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Nuke on September 21, 2011, 04:00:22 am
should also point out the amount of time lost taking buses everywhere. several years ago when i lived in phoenix, simultaneously going to school and working, id end up spending 3 hours a day either on the bus or waiting for a bus (if you consider working 8 and going to school for 6 hours on top of that, hardly enough room for sleep). if i had to run a couple errands it could burn an entire day. id usually leave work 4 hours early on fridays, id make up the time by giving up breaks and most of my lunch hour the other 4 days. having a car lets you run these errands during lunch breaks and whatever and can really optimize a busy day. not that ive ever been able to afford a car.

i think my quality of life has improved since i started leeching off the government.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Mobius on September 21, 2011, 04:26:00 am
...or other stuff like the necessity to buy a new car after an accident.

Wheres your insurance?

Most people with low income can not afford that kind of coverage (typically pooled into "full" coverage). They can only afford "basic liability" which only covers the expenses incurred on others, and their property, not the insured, or their property.

Well, I don't know how things work in your country, but in Italy there are many kinds of car insurance. There's basic insurance, mandatory, and at least two optional kinds of insurance for fires (and the like) and stealing. So, unless you pay the extra money, you can't be 100% sure of anything. There are many people who don't want to pay the extra money for a variety of reasons ("what's the chance to see your car caught by a fire, come on!", "I don't have enough money", etc.), and when accidents happen, they regret it. For example, a few months ago one of my brother's friends lost his car due to a nearby, accidental explosion, and couldn't do anything about it because he never paid the extra money for that specific kind of insurance.
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Grizzly on September 21, 2011, 12:12:59 pm
I read trough that now, I think a lot of that only applies to America.

or atleast I hope so.

I'm interested in hearing your reasoning behind this.
Well, the USA is stuck in my head as a pro-corporate power. And any less-pro-corporate power would have made laws against some of the practices you see there (such as those fines). Or atleast I hope so...
Title: Re: 15% of the americans now live below the poverty line.
Post by: Sololop on September 21, 2011, 06:22:26 pm
...or other stuff like the necessity to buy a new car after an accident.

Wheres your insurance?

Most people with low income can not afford that kind of coverage (typically pooled into "full" coverage). They can only afford "basic liability" which only covers the expenses incurred on others, and their property, not the insured, or their property.

Well, I don't know how things work in your country, but in Italy there are many kinds of car insurance. There's basic insurance, mandatory, and at least two optional kinds of insurance for fires (and the like) and stealing. So, unless you pay the extra money, you can't be 100% sure of anything. There are many people who don't want to pay the extra money for a variety of reasons ("what's the chance to see your car caught by a fire, come on!", "I don't have enough money", etc.), and when accidents happen, they regret it. For example, a few months ago one of my brother's friends lost his car due to a nearby, accidental explosion, and couldn't do anything about it because he never paid the extra money for that specific kind of insurance.

As an insurance broker myself, I get stories every day of people hoping they can make claims on losses when they don't have appropriate coverage. It's quite sad, when someone wakes up in the morning to find their car was stolen+burned by jerk kids and they didn't have the insurance to cover that.