Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: Kadaeux on September 15, 2011, 08:30:35 pm
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Starlord introduced me to this forum and asked me if i'd be able to possibly help with a project that he said had bounced around from time to time here.
A Battlefleet Gothic mod. Though a game primarily about Capital Ships Starlord believes we can make it work and I agree with him.
Other than the capital ships lesse the variety of strike craft we're talking about.....
Imperial:
- Lightning (Space Mod)
- Thunderbolt (Space Mod)
- Marauder Bomber (Space Mod)
- Fury Interceptor
- Starhawk Bomber
- Aquila Lander (Non-Player)
- Arvus Lighter (Non-Player)
- Caestus Assault Ram (Non-Player)
- Thunderhawk Gunship (Non-Player)
- Lathe-Pattern Assault Boat (Non-Player)
- Inquity-Pattern Swiftdeath Fighter *Chaos too*
- Inquity-Pattern Doomfire Bomber *Chaos too*
Chaos: (Non-Player)
- Locust
- Hell Blade
- Hell Talon
- Harbinger Bomber
- Swiftdeath Fighter
- Doomfire Bomber
- Thunderhawk Gunship
- Dreadclaw Assault Boat
Eldar: (Non-Player)
- Nightwings
- Phoenix
- Vampire
- Darkstar Fighter
- Eagle Bomber
Orks: (Non-Player)
- Fighta
- Fighta-Bomma
- Bommer
- Blasta-Bommer
Tau: (Non-Player)
- Remora Drones
- Barracuda
- Tiger-Shark
- Manta
- Orca Dropship
And to show off some of my 40k modelling work so far.
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/Marsclass1.jpg)
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/Marsclass2.jpg)
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/Marsclass4.jpg)
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/HangarsandLances.jpg)
Enough of that ship, its only a half million polygons. ;)
Stuff I did for another BFG mod.
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/Despoiler10.jpg)
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/OrkTerrorShip.jpg)
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/Camparison.jpg)
(Thats an Ork Space Hulk against a 30km long Planet Killer)
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/Ravager4.jpg)
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/Allmodels3.jpg)
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/Allmodels2.jpg)
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/ImperialMCV2.jpg)
Opinions thoughts, praise etc welcome.
Also note i've never done any freespace modding before.
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Sweet holy Christ on melba toast, those are some incredible looking models, sir.
Also, welcome to the HLP forums! I'll have to wait for someone else to post the nice welcome beam, though.
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Pretty models, but I wonder how they'll look when I'm flying sorties against them, up close.
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Pretty models, but I wonder how they'll look when I'm flying sorties against them, up close.
Probably lousy :p
They are massive ships and were made for the Dawn of War BFG mod and as such are of massively low detail (Except for the Mars Class 500'000+ poly monster)
For the DoW models I did you're looking at between 100 and 12'000 polygons. (And most of them are under 3'000)
Sweet holy Christ on melba toast, those are some incredible looking models, sir.
Also, welcome to the HLP forums! I'll have to wait for someone else to post the nice welcome beam, though.
Thanks mate :D
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500k polys? :shaking:
You must have a beast of a rig. Mine is terrified at the very thought.
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time to get beamed:
:welcome:
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I've only recently started becoming acquainted with 40k due to the recent game, but I really like the ornate architecture of the Space Marines. Your models are impressive, but I'll be more impressed once you show off some ships in-engine and not just high poly models. Also, textures.
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I've only recently started becoming acquainted with 40k due to the recent game, but I really like the ornate architecture of the Space Marines. Your models are impressive, but I'll be more impressed once you show off some ships in-engine and not just high poly models. Also, textures.
Only new to this, Starlord mentioned that some people here had seemed interested in a BFG mod and invited me to join you guys and show off what I have/can do.
As for getting them in-engine, well I do believe i'm going to need a lot of tutorials/guides on how to do that. (Which you chaps appear to have.)
Also texturing is a somewhat weak point of mine (due to the whole unwrapping part, still trying to self-teach myself it)
Trying to do a Lightning Strike Fighter *reference below* to test with *Shrugs*
(http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/xlarge/lightningfighter.jpg)
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In the name of the EMPRAH i greatly support this project!
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Looking cool. I have to wonder though if the engine is capable of accurately representing the ship sizes and speeds BFG ships fight and travel at....
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Nice, but does the engine support that many turrets?^^
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If the engine doesn't support BFG speeds (sizes should not be a problem, considering what Inferno and TBP managed to make work), then alterations would have to be made "for gameplay reasons". Turrets also should not be a problem.
BTW, why did you listed other races an "non-player"? It'd be fun to fly some Ork jalopy, Chaos Hell Talon or perhaps a Nightwing. Main campaign could be Imperial, but other races should be fully flyable in other missions.
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any necron or tyrannid ships? that tyrannid hive was a monster!
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Me demandz shipz with MOAR dakka to bust all da gitz from da univerze!
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Considering the ranges that BFG engagements are supposed to take place over, those relatively low poly models could be great for ships out of visual range that only appear in your target box. You would only need a single full detail cap ship model (like your awesome Mars class) to be able to have a pretty robust experience, as all that you would be likely to see of the other side would be barrages, lance shots, etc. If the gameplay were fun and balanced (or even just fun), you could get a lot of mileage and generate a lot of interest out of a modpack with the one big ship, maybe 3 or 4 fighters/bombers/torpedos, and some low detail cap ships.
The really nice thing about doing a 40k video game is that Chaos can basically just be Imperial reskins :D
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Note, copying BFG rules over to FS might be impossible/not fun . It could be better to have an FS-style gameplay if AI proved unable to handle BFG distances.
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That Mars class warship is a seriously impressive piece of work. I'd love to see this mod become official here on HLP. :nod:
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I knew your name was familiar when I saw you on IRC. Hopefully some sort of BFG mod can happen using FSOpen.
And because Tau have kickass attack craft: For the Greater Good!
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:welcomesilver:
I've been wanting to see a BFG mod for FS2 for years!!! :D
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I've never been fan of the Warhammer ship design, but I must admit - this is awesome amount of details. Your models looks awesome, can't wait to see them ingame :D. Keep up good work! :yes:
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WE AHR TEH SPEHSS MERHINES!! AND WE DECLAHR EXTEHMINATUHS ON YOUR MEHSBEHGOTTEN PLAHNET!
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God have mercy on the person who has to unwrap the 500k poly Mars.
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The concept is very interesting to say the least, however, the sheer number of the ships that should be converted for this to work may become a hindrance. Therefore, based on a similar proposal I read on "Free skies" mod, I think the "think big, yet start small" approach that is advocated here,
I certainly don't think that the mod has been abandoned (judging by the bumps, there seems to be a healthy amount of interest from the community), but I can see people not really wanting to put in work on it while there are still so many pieces missing. Artists may see it as risky to sink time into a project when the code for the basic mechanics of the thing aren't in place, and coders don't really have any assets to work/test with at this point, so it's understandable why progress is slow given the number of other, more established projects that their help is needed on. That said, I think a viable modpack might be more within reach than it seems. I'm not saying it isn't going to be a lot of work, but here's a (fairly modest) list of things I think would be needed for a bare bones, generating interest type of release:
- 1-2 fighters
- 1-3 weapons (50 cal machine gun, cannon, flak turret?)
- 1-2 airships (either armed or unarmed)
- flugstein mine (really just a black sphere)
- weapon, engine, cockpit, and damage sound effects
- visual effects for bullet impacts, explosion and/or flak
- couple of HUD tweaks
- handful of music tracks (main hall, briefing, ambient, battle)
- 2-3 missions (defend your airship, minefield escort, attack the enemy convoy and escape before reinforcements arrive)
- appropriate main hall and loading screens
- 1-2 skyboxes
- ocean?
Obviously there are thing's I'm forgetting, but that seems fairly comparable to the very successful BtRL demo release (though they did have lots of polish, VA, etc.). I've intentionally left off the significant code/scripting changes that atmospheric missions require (mostly AI problems as I understand it), but I'd guess that there would be a lot more code-side interest in working on those issues if a mod like this got to a point where that were the main thing holding back a release. I'm willing to bet that a good number of the items I've listed can be salvaged in one way or another from other sources. For instance, mods like TVWP and 158th used machine-gun type weapons--why not build off of what they have already accomplished (giving credit, of course)? Historical photographs or just random shots of flying through the clouds could be used for the main hall and loading screens. I have a white smoke effect I made for FotG that would work for a damage trail, and I suspect that community members have lots of similar stuff (skyboxes, visual effects, sounds) laying around that could really help speed things along, even if most of it ends up getting replaced once the mod gets on its feet.
Anyway, just thinking out loud here; hope my 2 cents are of interest :)
lostllama, do you have any screens of the airship models you've acquired?
or something of a sort is sought. Start off with a minimum number of fighters, and larger ships (your choice on what should be included, I'd choose something along the lines of the proposal of "swashmebuckle"), and make 2-5 missions that are ww2 inspired, "battlegroup defense", "battlegroup attack", that sort of thing. Fluff from the wh40k universe is good enough for that sort of missions, I think. This will serve as a demo and also as an invitation for more talented modders to join in.
There were too many good mod attempts that never made it, simply because the modders involved either got too ambitious and then got tired and left, or simply because they never could muster enough personel to make it past the difficulties involved in modding, from FRED to everything else there is and it would be a waste, since so much of the work (modelwise) has been done already. Besides, making a model work with Freespace 2 isn't the easiest thing in the world. Therefore, for the beginning, keep the number small. There are those who might suggest that the fluff of Battlefleet Gothic is only about big ships slugging it out, however, let's not get too caught up in the small fry. Remember, it's just a table top game's implementation on the PC. The purpose is to have fun. Those who might not like the direction you take your mod, might as well remember that.
I think that everyone has their own opinion of what the mod should focus on and look like, I have mine. Deployment of huge fleets of ships slugging it out from far off, with swarms of fighters out to destroy enemy bombers and protect their own bombers, who would both paint targets for the big ships of their side to shoot and also kill them off outright, (the bombers that is). Fighters and bombers' actions (that FS2 basically is) in WH40K: Battlefleet Gothic should be interesting to fight, however, care must be taken so that they are never shown out of proportion, because they are too small to do much harm to the big behemoths slugging it out. They shouldn't be made into superfighters or bombers that could destroy a dreadnought with one bomb, it would take tens or hundreds of them and their purpose should be to put a critical subsystem out of action, instead (for the largest ships, at least). Alternatively, to kill of a dreadnought, would take many missions and many bomber wings converging on this. I sincerely hope that you actually make something playable in FS2 open out of all those beautiful models. Like I said earlier, starting small, produce a demo with 2-5 missions with just a few fighters and bombers and ships from each side and build on that in small steps. That's how most mods that actually did make it, did so.
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If the engine doesn't support BFG speeds (sizes should not be a problem, considering what Inferno and TBP managed to make work), then alterations would have to be made "for gameplay reasons". Turrets also should not be a problem.
BTW, why did you listed other races an "non-player"? It'd be fun to fly some Ork jalopy, Chaos Hell Talon or perhaps a Nightwing. Main campaign could be Imperial, but other races should be fully flyable in other missions.
I listed it that way from a Campaign perspective. Though i'm sure later on doing an Ork or Chaos or even Eldar campaigns would be interesting to say the least. (That's the same reason I listed the Lander, Lighter and Thunderhawk as non-player.)
Note, copying BFG rules over to FS might be impossible/not fun . It could be better to have an FS-style gameplay if AI proved unable to handle BFG distances.
Indeed. As it is from a Campaign perspective i'm thinking anything larger than a Frigate would be a rare sight. Ideas come easily. Implementation. *prepares to have a confusion*
The concept is very interesting to say the least, however, the sheer number of the ships that should be converted for this to work may become a hindrance. Therefore, based on a similar proposal I read on "Free skies" mod, I think the "think big, yet start small" approach that is advocated here,
I certainly don't think that the mod has been abandoned (judging by the bumps, there seems to be a healthy amount of interest from the community), but I can see people not really wanting to put in work on it while there are still so many pieces missing. Artists may see it as risky to sink time into a project when the code for the basic mechanics of the thing aren't in place, and coders don't really have any assets to work/test with at this point, so it's understandable why progress is slow given the number of other, more established projects that their help is needed on. That said, I think a viable modpack might be more within reach than it seems. I'm not saying it isn't going to be a lot of work, but here's a (fairly modest) list of things I think would be needed for a bare bones, generating interest type of release:
- 1-2 fighters
- 1-3 weapons (50 cal machine gun, cannon, flak turret?)
- 1-2 airships (either armed or unarmed)
- flugstein mine (really just a black sphere)
- weapon, engine, cockpit, and damage sound effects
- visual effects for bullet impacts, explosion and/or flak
- couple of HUD tweaks
- handful of music tracks (main hall, briefing, ambient, battle)
- 2-3 missions (defend your airship, minefield escort, attack the enemy convoy and escape before reinforcements arrive)
- appropriate main hall and loading screens
- 1-2 skyboxes
- ocean?
Obviously there are thing's I'm forgetting, but that seems fairly comparable to the very successful BtRL demo release (though they did have lots of polish, VA, etc.). I've intentionally left off the significant code/scripting changes that atmospheric missions require (mostly AI problems as I understand it), but I'd guess that there would be a lot more code-side interest in working on those issues if a mod like this got to a point where that were the main thing holding back a release. I'm willing to bet that a good number of the items I've listed can be salvaged in one way or another from other sources. For instance, mods like TVWP and 158th used machine-gun type weapons--why not build off of what they have already accomplished (giving credit, of course)? Historical photographs or just random shots of flying through the clouds could be used for the main hall and loading screens. I have a white smoke effect I made for FotG that would work for a damage trail, and I suspect that community members have lots of similar stuff (skyboxes, visual effects, sounds) laying around that could really help speed things along, even if most of it ends up getting replaced once the mod gets on its feet.
Anyway, just thinking out loud here; hope my 2 cents are of interest :)
lostllama, do you have any screens of the airship models you've acquired?
or something of a sort is sought. Start off with a minimum number of fighters, and larger ships (your choice on what should be included, I'd choose something along the lines of the proposal of "swashmebuckle"), and make 2-5 missions that are ww2 inspired, "battlegroup defense", "battlegroup attack", that sort of thing. Fluff from the wh40k universe is good enough for that sort of missions, I think. This will serve as a demo and also as an invitation for more talented modders to join in.
There were too many good mod attempts that never made it, simply because the modders involved either got too ambitious and then got tired and left, or simply because they never could muster enough personel to make it past the difficulties involved in modding, from FRED to everything else there is and it would be a waste, since so much of the work (modelwise) has been done already. Besides, making a model work with Freespace 2 isn't the easiest thing in the world. Therefore, for the beginning, keep the number small. There are those who might suggest that the fluff of Battlefleet Gothic is only about big ships slugging it out, however, let's not get too caught up in the small fry. Remember, it's just a table top game's implementation on the PC. The purpose is to have fun. Those who might not like the direction you take your mod, might as well remember that.
I think that everyone has their own opinion of what the mod should focus on and look like, I have mine. Deployment of huge fleets of ships slugging it out from far off, with swarms of fighters out to destroy enemy bombers and protect their own bombers, who would both paint targets for the big ships of their side to shoot and also kill them off outright, (the bombers that is). Fighters and bombers' actions (that FS2 basically is) in WH40K: Battlefleet Gothic should be interesting to fight, however, care must be taken so that they are never shown out of proportion, because they are too small to do much harm to the big behemoths slugging it out. They shouldn't be made into superfighters or bombers that could destroy a dreadnought with one bomb, it would take tens or hundreds of them and their purpose should be to put a critical subsystem out of action, instead (for the largest ships, at least). Alternatively, to kill of a dreadnought, would take many missions and many bomber wings converging on this. I sincerely hope that you actually make something playable in FS2 open out of all those beautiful models. Like I said earlier, starting small, produce a demo with 2-5 missions with just a few fighters and bombers and ships from each side and build on that in small steps. That's how most mods that actually did make it, did so.
I fair assessment to say the least. Trust me when I say I'm not too ambitious, the list on the first page is simply a list of all the fighters/bombers/assault boats. (I could have included Torpedoes since BFG Torps are 75 metre long behemoths... and have boarding variants.)
I would think that it'd work starting small, perhaps the Lightning, Thunderbolt and Marauder for the Imperial side and their counterparts for the Chaos Side. (Which reminds me, players would have to get used to much smaller missile loadouts!)
I like your idea for what it should be about, but at the same time I'm inclined to shift the highlights to the smaller craft as its unusual in 40k (Not make an Alpha-One of 40k, but something like having your orders changed on the fly by the Inquisition to take out a Chaos Captains escape boat or something like that.)
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It's nice to see someone is looking into this. I've looked at the ships in the past.
I like the Ork Terror ship and the Ravager, those two could be wing commanderized LOL
(the one just above and just below the ork planet killer)
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It's nice to see someone is looking into this. I've looked at the ships in the past.
I like the Ork Terror ship and the Ravager, those two could be wing commanderized LOL
(the one just above and just below the ork planet killer)
Excellent recognition skills there matey. :pimp:
But I don't think they could.
For scale to show why.
Terror Ship: 4500m (Battlefleet Koronus Book)
Ravager: 1500m (Battlefleet Koronus Book)
Lightning Interceptor: 13m (Imperial Armour)
Result.....
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/Scale-4.jpg)
If you look at the image at full size, that dot is the Lightning Interceptor i've been working on pictured below.
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/LightningInterceptor.jpg)
EDIT: *Kadaeux nearly chokes to death as he discovers that Lightning is only 2690 polygons at the moment.* Damn.... I though I had done it high poly than that....
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Those are really impressive models mate. Judging by that Mars, You've managed to find a good balance between detail and performance. Having full-detail BFG ships would probably kill the poor engine anyway; have a few of the models (never played though sadly) and they're pretty complex. Might be able to get away with it with some crazy normal mapping though.
I always thought Homeworld would suit the mechanics of BFG the most, but FS could be done i suppose, especially with Open's features. Best of luck with it! :cool:
(And make sure the Tau are awesome in it!) :yes:
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That Lightning looks good to me! Though poly count isn't usually the critical limiting factor with FSO, the fewer the better when it comes to performance. 2690 is a good count for a small fighter. Most of Brand-X's fighters for FotG are in that general range--the details are in the normal maps. Mmmm, lascannons...
I like the idea of focusing on the smaller vessels to begin with, as that's going to be the bread and butter of gameplay for just about any FS mod. Really, you could have a very compelling introductory mini-campaign with no cap-ship slugging matches at all. Say your squadron has been left to guard a damaged Sword-class frigate while the main engagement has moved on to a different area--a Chaos carrier craft was pulverized in the outer reaches of the system, but its complement of strikecraft escaped destruction and are now hunting you down as you limp from planet to planet. Enter the Dakka.
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That Lightning looks good to me! Though poly count isn't usually the critical limiting factor with FSO, the fewer the better when it comes to performance. 2690 is a good count for a small fighter. Most of Brand-X's fighters for FotG are in that general range--the details are in the normal maps. Mmmm, lascannons...
I like the idea of focusing on the smaller vessels to begin with, as that's going to be the bread and butter of gameplay for just about any FS mod. Really, you could have a very compelling introductory mini-campaign with no cap-ship slugging matches at all. Say your squadron has been left to guard a damaged Sword-class frigate while the main engagement has moved on to a different area--a Chaos carrier craft was pulverized in the outer reaches of the system, but its complement of strikecraft escaped destruction and are now hunting you down as you limp from planet to planet. Enter the Dakka.
Good solid ideas. But instead of just having a Chaos Carrier trashed somewhere, use Ork Roks. (With the added challenge of the player having to dodge attempts by the Orks to ram their fighters!)
*Goes to go model an Ork Fighta for comparison purposes and possible use*
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I do hope we'll have the cockpit view for those fighter too, it'll enhance the scale feeling :D
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Ok, Fighta done, some play-around renders before I try and work out how to get them in-game or anything....
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/Fighta.jpg)
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/FightaandLightning.jpg)
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/TheChase.jpg)
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/LightningOrtho.jpg)
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/larask/OrkFightaOrtho.jpg)
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Awesome high speed modeling! Orks are a great choice for this style of game--swarms of kinda crappy but dangerous fighters=space sim gold, and attacking in waves is very Orky :) Now you just need to find some red paint...
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Or make two entry for each orkish ship :
Any color but red =max speed = x
Red color version = max speed = x + 2
:p
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Or make two entry for each orkish ship :
Any color but red =max speed = x
Red color version = max speed = x + 2
:p
If color = "yellow" then
moredakka = "true"
Else
moredakka = "notorky"
:nervous:
:D
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Also don't forget this one :):
If color = "purple" then
ship-sneaky ="true"
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Be very careful of copyright here games workshop are very strict with copyright
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Yay battlefleet Gothic!!!!!!!!! If this is the stuff from the Dawn of War mod, i take it that mod is no longer on the go? I really do hope this mod goes somewhere as i looooooooooove the 40k universe and ships. As the The_Force says just becareful of GW as they have shut down lots of mods because they haven't been 100% TC's and for other weird reasons
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So when do I get to see battlebarge "Maximum ****"?
(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/6001/hellyeahbygannadene.jpg)
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So when do I get to see battlebarge "Maximum ****"?
*Snip*
Gratuitous amounts of awesome detected.
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Indeed.
Well at the moment i'm still working on the models themselves trying to figure out the best/safest way to unwrap them before I try and work out what I need to do to get them ingame.
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I always wanted to create a 40K mod, but it seems that someone got ahead of me, someone with skills :)
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First, ...
JIMINY CRICKETS!
Second, the Lightning looks a tad off, like the front is too fat. However, you'll get it right on your own volition. :D
Third, you might consider some epic normal mapping for those huge ships, or detail boxes, or whaterver das experts are using to get things done. I don't think 0.5mil polygons is a terribly great idea for FSO.
Fourth, JIMINY CRICKETS!
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First, ...
JIMINY CRICKETS!
Second, the Lightning looks a tad off, like the front is too fat. However, you'll get it right on your own volition. :D
A slight consequence of only having photos of the Lightning to work with. I much prefer to have detailed Orthos or the physical model when it comes to modelling. Neither of which I had for the Lightning. :(
Third, you might consider some epic normal mapping for those huge ships, or detail boxes, or whaterver das experts are using to get things done. I don't think 0.5mil polygons is a terribly great idea for FSO.
Fourth, JIMINY CRICKETS!
Indeed, that Mars Class likely won't see use in the mod. Of which their enemies could be grateful with its near to a thousand weapons.... (It has about 250 Heavy Bolter Emplacements and about 120 Hydra Batteries just for close in defence...)
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Third, you might consider some epic normal mapping for those huge ships, or detail boxes, or whaterver das experts are using to get things done. I don't think 0.5mil polygons is a terribly great idea for FSO.
Fourth, JIMINY CRICKETS!
Indeed, that Mars Class likely won't see use in the mod. Of which their enemies could be grateful with its near to a thousand weapons.... (It has about 250 Heavy Bolter Emplacements and about 120 Hydra Batteries just for close in defence...)
I was under the impression that polygon count wasn't a limiting factor in FSO. Admittedly, trying to texture that beast efficiently would pose somewhat of a challenge, but is it really altogether infeasible? Because just to be honest, I would love to see that ship ingame. :D
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The new Sathanas has 200k polies, and runs pretty smoothly on most machines thanks to detail boxing and efficient texture use. 500k shouldn't really be a problem, if you handle those two things well enough.
In addition, by the time you finished unwrapping and texturing the beast, and setting up all the turrets for use, average computer power will have advanced another bit :)
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do you have any updates on this kadaeux?
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I support this thread, just as I will support this if it becomes a 40K mod for FSO.
And there should be mission where you play as Chaos. The Dark Gods will be pleased if you do.
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(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/015/a/0/fffforr_the_emprah_by_punisher885-d379auz.jpg)
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do you have any updates on this kadaeux?
My Studies have kept me busy so i've not gotten anything done, still trying to work out unwrapping, i'd be perfectly happy if anyone fancied coming along and joining me (specifically someone good at unwrapping at the moment :p)