Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: BloodEagle on September 24, 2011, 03:53:57 pm
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So I'm looking to replace my filth encrusted, standard issue keyboard. It has served me well for many years, but its aging is as evident as the existence of the new life-form growing within its crevices.
Unfortunately, it seems like keyboard developers, for the most part, have completely lost their freaking minds since I last looked into them.
So I'm looking for a keyboard (I've found a few possibilities) that has the standard key-spacing you'd find in classic IBM / COMPAQ / OEM keyboards from 10-15 years ago, and has normal backspace / enter keys (horizontal shaped wedges). Being (at most) 1.5ft long would be a definite plus. And the fewer media keys on the damned thing, the better. Oh, and I definitely don't want one with that ridiculous 'declining up-arrow'.
POSSIBILITIES: (in no particular order)
- Rosewill RK-800G (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823201038&Tpk=rosewill%20rk-800g) XX Nevermind on this, didn't notice the backspace key
- LITE-ON SK-1788/BS (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823107120&Tpk=LITE-ON%20sk-1788)
- i-Rocks KR-6260-BK (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823204034&Tpk=i-Rocks%20KR-6260-BK[) XX Nevermind on this, didn't notice the backspace key
- Seal Shield STK-503 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823336017&Tpk=Seal%20Shield%20STK-503)
This biggest problem is that I can't find a place that hold ANY of these in stock, so I can't check them out before actually buying them.
So, if you have any opinions, recommendations, or insider information, I'd be very glad to hear it.
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Yeah, there are some really ridiculous things on keyboards now. Even I admit that I don't actually know much about basic keyboards anymore, I myself have a Saitek Eclipse I & II and a Creative Fatal1ty.
Is there any particular reason for your aversion to anything that wasn't on a keyboard 20 years ago (note: don't mean that to sound like I think it's silly; if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right)? Not all of them are bad.
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I can speak for BloodEagle but my preference for old fashioned 102 layout is that I know where everything is without having to look
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Is there any particular reason for your aversion to anything that wasn't on a keyboard 20 years ago (note: don't mean that to sound like I think it's silly; if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right)? Not all of them are bad.
Inadequate key-spacing, key-height, poor tactile response, strange layouts, and curved keys are among the main reasons that I loathe modern keyboards.
Also, I shouldn't need to prop up the back-end with something else. All of the new ones that I've seen have extensions that are half as long as the older keyboards'.
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The IBM Model M keyboard is indeed keyboard of the gods.....
you can get them at clickykeyboards or here http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/
At the moment I use a zboard Merc
Every key is programmable single keystrokes or macros, plus it supports profiles that auto activate when you run the game (or program) and the profiler auto downloads profiles for new games (fully customisable of course)
(http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/848/merctop.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/29/merctop.jpg/)
(http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7336/ideazonzboard.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/ideazonzboard.jpg/)
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i use a... *looks down* logitech k120. $12 at walmart, best keyboard i've ever used. standard layout, very nice feel.
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I'm still using the generic Dell keyboard that came with this system seven years ago; it's fairly standard besides the extra-thick space bar and Alt keys at the bottom. It's accumulated its share of grime over the years too, but I've managed to pry out and wash every single key once or twice, so it's still going. Perhaps most amazingly, none of the letters have shown signs of wear; whatever they're printed with really holds up.
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Perhaps a Das Keyboard, Unicomp, or something with Cherry switches? I really need a Cherry keyboard with the tactile but not audible clicks. That said, I'm using an IBM Model M right now. Remapped the LCtrl with the Windows key, though.
I find that most cheap keyboards are just that--cheap. Pieces of junk, really. Save your money and spend on something worthwhile. Remember that you interact with your keyboard by far most often. Don't bother with something cheap--you're only hurting yourself. A quality keyboard will last far longer. http://store.daskeyboard.com/Das-Keyboard-Ultimate-Model-Silent/dp/B003M4XGI4
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I'm still using the generic Dell keyboard that came with this system seven years ago; it's fairly standard besides the extra-thick space bar and Alt keys at the bottom. It's accumulated its share of grime over the years too, but I've managed to pry out and wash every single key once or twice, so it's still going. Perhaps most amazingly, none of the letters have shown signs of wear; whatever they're printed with really holds up.
Hear hear!
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Using a Logitech Wireless K340, just what I want. :)
Also using a Logitech Wireless M305 Mouse.
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I find that most cheap keyboards are just that--cheap. Pieces of junk, really. Save your money and spend on something worthwhile. Remember that you interact with your keyboard by far most often. Don't bother with something cheap--you're only hurting yourself. A quality keyboard will last far longer. http://store.daskeyboard.com/Das-Keyboard-Ultimate-Model-Silent/dp/B003M4XGI4
i don't find that at all. the no-name keyboard that i got for free when i built my first computer lasted 7 years. the keyboard itself still works fine, the problem was it was PS/2 and the port on my motherboard has some issues. and it was getting a bit nasty, but that could be fixed if i really wanted to. and i'll reiterate that the $12 keyboard i got to replace it is the best i've ever used. (althought if you like a high slant, this one's stand IS pretty short. i like mine flatter though.)
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I'm running a Microsoft Comfort Curve 2000 (http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/en-gb/p/comfort-curve-keyboard-2000/B2L-00005) that I paid something like AUD$40 for a couple of years back since I was looking for something small enough to fit on my desks keyboard shelf, in black and USB native - all things my old Internet Keyboard Pro wasn't. It's supposed to be a sort of compromise between the traditional "split" layout ergonomic 'boards and more conventional layouts. The result is a keyboard that curves in the middle to create an ergonoic layout without that jarring split. It takes a bit of getting used to though and I have to admit I still haven't mastered it despite owning it for 2 years. I probably paid too much for it, but it's been good enough that I don't really care.
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i aquired a stack of variousmint condition keyboards from a thrift store for about a buck, most of them are pretty cool. what happens is some pseudo-geek buys a dell, doesnt like they keyboard, and trades it in for an over priced piece of crap gimmicky keyboard that probably wont work half the time. so my list of keyboards from best to worst are:
antique keyboards from the 70s, 80s, and early 90s that have been hacked to work over usb.
your standard (non apple) oem issue keyboard.
fancy overpriced crap that sucks.
layout is rather important so i like keyboards in the old skool layout used by early ibm x86 machines. im starting to get sick of logitech tampering with the layout of the edit pad, putting the ins key in absurd places, smashing the arrows, numpad and edit pad together, that kinda **** i cannot tolerate. i still have a fairly old ibm keyboard that i bought in maybe 97 or 98, and it still works fine. unfortunately i made the mistake of letting my mom use it. she has spilled her sugar and fancy creamer saturated abomination she calls coffee into it no fewer than 9 times. it has been rebuild 11 times and it still works fine. she did piss me off a lot when she destroyed the caplocks key in one of her temper tantrums. i mean the keyboard isnt all that special, late 90s $30 keyboard, it just has a quality about it you hardly ever find anymore, even in $100+ keyboards.
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I'm using a Logitech G110 keyboard. 12 additional, fully configurable keys with 3 modes each (mode switch dial is above them, along with a quick macro recording button), which can be set on a per-game basis, a switch to physically disable windows key (useful if the game uses alt and ctrl extensively), mute buttons for headphones/speakers, volume control, music player control buttons, an additional USB port, built-in sound card (not the best one out there though) complete with ports to plug your mic/speakers to it (and separate mute buttons for each), sleep/wake button and customizable backlight. I forgot how much my father payed for it though (I've got it after he found the hardness of keys didn't suit him, for me, it's fine). I find it's layout comfortable, more than any others I used (especially my previous, cheap one, which had a computer shutdown button right above printscreen button).
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Logitech G600, for the win. paid the equivalent of $20-ish here in croatia, retail. it ought to be a ton cheaper elsewhere.
It is a media keyboard, but the keys actually give back decent feedback, and the media keys are in a strip above the main area and i find them actually useful.
the "fn" modifier on the other hand, i find utterly useless. but hey, its a good, comfy keyboard.
also, **** keyboards without a big ****ing enter key right below the big backspace key.
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As much as I would absolutely love to grab one of the Unicomp keyboards (I miss my old Model M :(), there's no way in Hell that I'm spending more than 35.00 USD on a keyboard.
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I have the original blue G15 with 18 macro keys. The extra keys aren't that useful in games (apart from a few exceptions where the game won't let you remap keys) but are invaluable for writing Latex documents. I use the LCD to show a framerate graph in games and have remapped the right side windows and menu keys in software so I can use them in games.
One important difference between keyboards is the number and types of simultaneous keypresses they allow. I have yet to come across a perfect keyboard in this respect but the G15 is reasonably good with this, and a lot better than most of the old PS/2 keyboards I used in the past.
also, **** keyboards without a big ****ing enter key right below the big backspace key.
I hate keyboards with that layout since I use the backslash in many games, such as for the headlight in Descent. I think that L shaped enter key is common on international layouts. It was originally on my laptop but I swapped it out for a US layout keyboard.
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I currently use this Dell SK-8135, which is better than the HP one I had before since it doesn't lock up as much on simultaneous key presses, and it has this nice little media control where the pause/printcsrn/scroll lock buttons usually are. It is nice and heavy as well. The only thing it doesn't have is 2 options for the back lift, but I don't need it any higher than what it does... :) I have no idea how much it costs since it was given to me, but they seem standard issue with many Dell computers. My mouse is so boring, but it works... ;)
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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Personally, I love my Creative Fatal1ty. The layout isn't quite a full keyboard, but I'm a sucker for scissor keys. It's surprisingly well made - even after something like 2 years, none of the keys have broken and not even the silkscreen letters have started wearing off of the keys. The backlighting isn't fantastic but I've been thinking about taking it apart and putting my own LEDs in there. No annoying frills like "media" buttons on whatever.
(http://gadgets.softpedia.com/images/gadgets/gallery/large/The-Creative-Fatal1ty-Gaming-Keyboard-1.jpg)
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Logitech G19 is pretty cool :drevil:
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Currently on a Dell RT7D50 which I acquired along with a Dell tower which has since been claimed back. the only issue with it is a sticky right shift which I am not disposed to fix atm and a missing left leg which dont bother me as I am using it on my lap anyway.
(http://www.buypcsupplies.com/images/cat/38550_pic_ndo4190.jpg)
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^That keyboard is what every single one of the computers at my university uses, and it works fine for me.
The main problem with them is that I'm hard pressed to find one at the university that doesn't have one of the little "legs" missing because someone decided, for some reason completely beyond my understanding, to remove them. Ok, so that's not really a problem with the keyboard model.
I'd say any keyboard with that kind of layout is good so long as it doesn't have... well, I don't know what it's called. It's when you can't press certain combinations of keys, such as a couple of the arrow keys and the space bar or something like that. I hate that like plague.
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N-key rollover?
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Ghosting.
Interestingly enough, PS/2 is actually superior to USB, as far as keystroke transfer is concerned. The main issue with older keyboards is that they weren't designed to have the WSAD cluster under such use.
So if you can find a modern PS/2, get it.
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o.0
my old ps/2 had a maximum keypress of four, and as little as two depending on what keys they were.
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I can buy a lot of these $15 Logitech keyboards before I will ever justify anything more expensive. http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/PID-MX17422%28ME%29.aspx
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Currently on a Dell RT7D50 which I acquired along with a Dell tower which has since been claimed back. the only issue with it is a sticky right shift which I am not disposed to fix atm and a missing left leg which dont bother me as I am using it on my lap anyway.
(http://www.buypcsupplies.com/images/cat/38550_pic_ndo4190.jpg)
that looks oddly familiar. its what i replaced my $90 logitech with and i must admit i like this one better, especially considering i got it for free. i did however dremel off the dell logo.
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Oh hey, that's my Dell one too. Woot.
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Currently on a Dell RT7D50
*snip*
Whoa... did you steal my keyboard?
wait, no, mine's right here
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Currently on a Dell RT7D50 which I acquired along with a Dell tower which has since been claimed back. the only issue with it is a sticky right shift which I am not disposed to fix atm and a missing left leg which dont bother me as I am using it on my lap anyway.
(http://www.buypcsupplies.com/images/cat/38550_pic_ndo4190.jpg)
oh, this one is perfection to type on. :D
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I'd recommend taking a look at "Deck" Keyboards or something similar with mechanical switches.
... going with that will quickly make ya realize how cheap and shoddy the huge majority of keyboards (especially some of those overpriced "gaming keyboards") actually is.
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Ghosting.
Interestingly enough, PS/2 is actually superior to USB, as far as keystroke transfer is concerned. The main issue with older keyboards is that they weren't designed to have the WSAD cluster under such use.
So if you can find a modern PS/2, get it.
My old keyboard which came with our old Compaq (a comp from 99, played games like Descent 3 and FS2 full detail like a charm!) and I had no problem with WASD.. or WSAD, or AWSD or WADS or whichever people call it. I just use WADS because it makes a word. :)
But I never really noticed it because for the vast majority of the time I used the keyboard, I was always using the arrow keys to move around because I thought it made more sense.
Funnily enough, I used to be good at using them. Caused a lot of headscratching from my friends.
Even more so than my use of inverted pitch everywhere.
But I digress.
Anyway, I'm currently using one of those Dell keyboards pictured right now since I'm at my university. Again, it is a good keyboard.
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Currently on a Microsoft Wireless 5000 on my main desktop, part of a set I got at a liquidation place for 40$ and, well, I'm not as much of a gamer as I used to be, but the range is terrible and the keyboard has a habit of thinking I'm still hitting 'A' when I'm hitting W, S, or D while gaming. I keep it mostly because despite that I like typing on it. Has a curve, but a flat one, not a raised one, which works for me. Oh, and normal Ins/Del key placement.
Home theater box has a bluetooth Logitech MX 5000 that I found for free that I thoroughly enjoy, and I would use it on my main desktop if the microsoft one had any range :rolleyes:. I find that for the most part I end up enjoying Logitech keyboards more overall.
Wish I knew the model name on the Logitech my one friend has. Basic USB keyboard, entirely basic layout, only has Volume, Play/Pause, and Calculator buttons on the top right and that's it. It sounds like that'd be right up the OP's alley.
nvm, it's this oneI can buy a lot of these $15 Logitech keyboards before I will ever justify anything more expensive. http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/PID-MX17422%28ME%29.aspx
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My old keyboard which came with our old Compaq (a comp from 99, played games like Descent 3 and FS2 full detail like a charm!) and I had no problem with WASD.. or WSAD, or AWSD or WADS or whichever people call it. I just use WADS because it makes a word. :)
But I never really noticed it because for the vast majority of the time I used the keyboard, I was always using the arrow keys to move around because I thought it made more sense.
I started playing FPSs with the numpad in Descent and still use that everywhere instead of WASD. The Descent games still show up simultaneous keystroke limitations more than anything else I have seen. If you want to trichord and shoot at the same time, you need 6 or 7 keys in total, and the numpad 0 key that I use to fire primaries often conflicts with other keys. I don't know if there is any keyboard out there that can do this properly. Even the G15 struggles with this situation and I have resorted to using the menu key for primary fire for that situation (I am too used to the 0 now to just use the other key all the time :p).
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@ TwentyPercentCooler are you sure thats scissor keys, looks like a membrane to me
edit: apparently it is..
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Currently on a Dell RT7D50 which I acquired along with a Dell tower which has since been claimed back. the only issue with it is a sticky right shift which I am not disposed to fix atm and a missing left leg which dont bother me as I am using it on my lap anyway.
On a uni computer right now and guess what I'm typing on?... ;) I still prefer the one with the volume control though... :)
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Ive got one of these
(http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/7231/keybm.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/832/keybm.jpg/)
and yes it is truly awful, but if I need to take a keyboard somewhere I can roll it up and put it in my pocket
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eBay, get same model as you had in good or new condition?
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There's only two main things you need to pay attention too when purchasing a keyboard. Other things that are considered are really specialty, or just really nice keyboards.
Can you hold down more than three buttons at a time without you're computer having a ****fit about it (if you can't hold down more than three buttons at once, you'll have a fun time with limited mobility in fps's and other games, or find yourself ****ed when you need to make a 4 button key combo)?
Is the keyboard sturdy (if it's sturdy, and stands up well to typing and gaming, then you'll have a keyboard where the buttons keep working and not have dead keys)?
That's all i pay attention to. Sturdiness, and how many keys you can hold down at once and still function. Basically, my distaste for all emachine keyboards.
EDIT: for years i used an imac bondi blue usb keyboard. That thing was sturdy and heavy.
(http://www.megamacs.com/photos/M2452.jpg)
I got rid of that keyboard since it got super dirty. A friend wanted it and gave it to them.
The next keyboard i got was an adesso mini.
(http://images.highspeedbackbone.net/skuimages/large/A68-1122.jpg)
It was sturdy, but with keypresses very similar to that of the ibm model m keyboard here.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/ufia/ibm_keyboard.jpg)
My own fancy for keyboards is nothing for anything more than a general use mini keyboard. Either way, i recommend adesso for anything pretty darn sturdy (not as sturdy as ibm model m keyboard though...that thing's like a tank), general use, and cheap.
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Cherry Keyboards :yes:
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That's all i pay attention to. Sturdiness, and how many keys you can hold down at once and still function. Basically, my distaste for all emachine keyboards.
I'd add key spacing and noise to that list. Used to have a crappy logitech kb, where you actually needed to be careful to hit the keys in correct angle, or risk nearby keys also registering a press - way too tight spacing, ruins error ratio/speed. And noise.. at least in office use its something to consider - at least in case of those more violent kind of typers (like myself) :P
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the joys of large plastic spacebars...they need damping ;)
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I'd add key spacing and noise to that list. Used to have a crappy logitech kb, where you actually needed to be careful to hit the keys in correct angle, or risk nearby keys also registering a press - way too tight spacing, ruins error ratio/speed. And noise.. at least in office use its something to consider - at least in case of those more violent kind of typers (like myself) :P
Raised keys helps for confined keyboard buttons. It wont help all the way of course.
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I still hang on to a couple of those IBM model M's as absolute last ditch backup keyboards for the simple reason that i can pull it out of the attic, dirt and grime and excessive heat and all, bash it off the desk a few times, use it as a hammer, and still be able to count on it to work flawlessly.
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plus all the keys have removable covers that you can put in a pillow case and throw them in the washing machine
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It was sturdy, but with keypresses very similar to that of the ibm model m keyboard here.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/ufia/ibm_keyboard.jpg)
That lets you press more than 3 keys at a time?
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It definitely has the strangest placement for the backlash key that I've ever seen.
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That lets you press more than 3 keys at a time?
I guess you didn't get what i meant. I didn't mean the actual physical ability to hold down more than 3 keys at the same time. I meant what happens with some crappy keyboards unable to handle more than 3 key input at the same time. Such a problem is a pain in the ass if you ever need to do the rare four finger salute (pretty uncommon for whatever programs out there that have a four key combination, but this problem i describe would make such a thing impossible), or play computer games (was a real pain in the ass when strafing while going forward and jumping and also trying to pull a quick reload in fps's (crazy fps day with emachine keyboard)).
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problem is you got to multiplex 104 bits (one for each key) into what typically is around 32 i/o pins (minus the ones that are used for communication with the computer) on whatever mcu your keyboard uses. you do this with a scan matrix, usually 8*13 (which only requires 21 i/o pins) for 104 keys. a column or row was connected to outputs and the opposite was connected to outputs. you power one of the input lines and then read each of the output lines for a 1 or a 0, then you repeat this for all the other input lines. older keyboards had the issue where these matrices were not well distributed (they matrix was directly mapped to the physical layout of the keyboard), so groups of close together keys would share a row or column in the matrix, causing them to interfere with eachother. so they started interleaving the matrix lines so that keys sharing a row or column would be far apart. for descent and fps games i would use the keypad or arrows for movement because wasd would clash with itself. i dont even think i started using wsad until quake 3 came out, because i was so used to using the arrow keys.
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http://www.deckkeyboards.com/ none better :)
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That lets you press more than 3 keys at a time?
I guess you didn't get what i meant. I didn't mean the actual physical ability to hold down more than 3 keys at the same time.
I know what you meant. I guess you didn't get what I was asking. :P Does that keyboard have the capability of sending more than 3 keypresses to the computer at a time?
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Oh.
Unfortunately, i have no idea about the ibm model m. That was just for comparison of similar keypresses of the rather cheap (but built great for cheap) adesso mini to the ibm model m (both have clicky and raised keys). My older brother had the ibm keyboard i used every now and again for the few times i needed to use his setup (i typed on it, didn't game on it). His keyboard was great, i had no interest in it however, surprised he stopped using it (but at least kept it) and got a newer keyboard (he wasn't a gamer, i'll have to ask him why he stopped using it).